To answer the original question: IRL I'm a greco-roman wrestler who prefers pinning people till they calm down. In a game I generally go with Mu Thai because it's a no nonsense get the job done martial art. Capoeria <spelling?> and Tae Kwon Do are both kind of fun too, just for the pure flash. Then of course Brawling mixed with WWF wrestling. hehe.
One of my best friends was a young hothead trained in mu thai (With a tiny bit of TKD-mainly self taught-, just for the flashy kicks). When he was a little scrub he used to beat down guys at bars on a regular basis using the TKD alone. The simple fact is that the vast majority of people have no ability to fight, so he could actually land those kicks to the head...and that tends to drop people.
Later he became a bouncer, and worked a pretty rough club. He learned a LOT about his weaknesses, and picked up judo. Not being the biggest guy in the world, his weakness before judo was getting a strong guy grappling him. After his judo training that stopped being much of a concern. Nowdays he likes to choke people out.
IMO the reason Mu Thai is so effective is that it is all about kicking ass. No spiritual enlightenment, no philosophy, no "A true master doesn't fight" stuff. I don't know if it's standard, but the dojos back home were all run by thais, and you fought the very first day, a strong emphasis on fighting rather than kata. They did a lot of hitting wooden blocks, kicking wooden blocks. My friend would kick a phone pole over and over, his shins bleeding, black and blue. Ouch.
I think any advanced martial artist is going to know a handful of styles ala Bruce Lee.
Full Version: *POW* *KRAK*
There was this great story that I've heard from a couple of my teachers. My apologies that I don't remember the actual names, arts, and people involved, but the idea is there even without those.
Some famous boxer, retired, was invited to a competition-fighting school to give some tips from his experience. It wasn't a no-contact point-fighting school -- it was one of the systems that hit each other solidly enough to take balance. They had all kinds of ranks and experience levels. To make his point before speaking, the boxer took aside a woman with 6 months of experience, and said to everyone, "I'm going to give her one of my secrets, and then we'll see what she can do." All he told her, privately, was "No matter what the other person does, I want you to hit his bottom lip with your right hand. Just do that. Do it over and over, every single chance you get, no matter what they do. That's it."
They proceed to put her out on the floor and she wins against all her peers and many of her seniors... she doesn't stop winning until people have 4 or 5 years of experience. Some of the 4-year folks who lost are almost in tears, they're so embarrassed and upset. They don't understand what happened.
The boxer went on to explain that it's all about focus -- she had only thing to do, so she could focus on it really well. She never missed an opening, because she was only looking for one thing. She never did it halfway, because that was all she was trying to do. That kind of focus in incredibly powerful. It takes amazing amounts of technique to defeat singular focus.
A lot of the hard-hitting sports, like Muay thai and boxing, benefit from this focus -- they only do a few things, and they just look for every opportunity to deliver those few things really, really hard. After a longer period of time, more complex martial arts also develop that focus, but it takes longer because there are so many options. The complexity of the movements has to stop seeming complex to the practitioner -- it has to feel like "just one thing" that they do every time, so that the martial artist can have that perfect focus.
Once they reach that point several years into training, it's unquestionably more applicable than boxing or muay thai, because they have all the focus and all the possibilities. But if you want maximum fight-winning potential in minimum training time, you'd be better off learning 3 to 5 techniques until they are second-nature, and then developing the ability to stay focused in the fight via constant exposure to free-response fighting.
--K
Some famous boxer, retired, was invited to a competition-fighting school to give some tips from his experience. It wasn't a no-contact point-fighting school -- it was one of the systems that hit each other solidly enough to take balance. They had all kinds of ranks and experience levels. To make his point before speaking, the boxer took aside a woman with 6 months of experience, and said to everyone, "I'm going to give her one of my secrets, and then we'll see what she can do." All he told her, privately, was "No matter what the other person does, I want you to hit his bottom lip with your right hand. Just do that. Do it over and over, every single chance you get, no matter what they do. That's it."
They proceed to put her out on the floor and she wins against all her peers and many of her seniors... she doesn't stop winning until people have 4 or 5 years of experience. Some of the 4-year folks who lost are almost in tears, they're so embarrassed and upset. They don't understand what happened.
The boxer went on to explain that it's all about focus -- she had only thing to do, so she could focus on it really well. She never missed an opening, because she was only looking for one thing. She never did it halfway, because that was all she was trying to do. That kind of focus in incredibly powerful. It takes amazing amounts of technique to defeat singular focus.
A lot of the hard-hitting sports, like Muay thai and boxing, benefit from this focus -- they only do a few things, and they just look for every opportunity to deliver those few things really, really hard. After a longer period of time, more complex martial arts also develop that focus, but it takes longer because there are so many options. The complexity of the movements has to stop seeming complex to the practitioner -- it has to feel like "just one thing" that they do every time, so that the martial artist can have that perfect focus.
Once they reach that point several years into training, it's unquestionably more applicable than boxing or muay thai, because they have all the focus and all the possibilities. But if you want maximum fight-winning potential in minimum training time, you'd be better off learning 3 to 5 techniques until they are second-nature, and then developing the ability to stay focused in the fight via constant exposure to free-response fighting.
--K
The students who couldn't pick up on the fact she was only using one technique should have been embarassed. 
-Siege
-Siege
Indeed. This should only have been effective after the second or third opponent if the other opponents were forbidden to watch the fights in progress.
~J
~J
not one technique, one target.
/edit
ok I re-read and it did say "with your right hand" so more limited than just a target.
but still, I can hit something with my right hand a lot of ways, and I can draw people out with other stuff, but if I always hit the same target, at every opening, that can make a difference, kinda demoralizing.
/edit
/edit
ok I re-read and it did say "with your right hand" so more limited than just a target.
but still, I can hit something with my right hand a lot of ways, and I can draw people out with other stuff, but if I always hit the same target, at every opening, that can make a difference, kinda demoralizing.
/edit
More than one technique, yes, but there are a limited number of ways to hit the upper lip with one's right hand, and most of them can be blocked in a few simple ways. I wouldn't imagine that there would be anything she could do that couldn't be countered with one of three blocks.
~J
~J
you are right.
However, the reason it is effective has to do with the forum. all she has to do to win is defend, and wait for the one opening she wants. that sort of focus forces you to be patient and only take the shots you know will connect.
while her opponent was likely looking for any opening and taking the ones that might connect.
Skilled fighters would not be beaten by this. but it does show that good focus, and proper tactics go a long way in a fight.
-Mike R.
However, the reason it is effective has to do with the forum. all she has to do to win is defend, and wait for the one opening she wants. that sort of focus forces you to be patient and only take the shots you know will connect.
while her opponent was likely looking for any opening and taking the ones that might connect.
Skilled fighters would not be beaten by this. but it does show that good focus, and proper tactics go a long way in a fight.
-Mike R.
That's exactly it -- it shows that there is a lot more to it than the techniques. Of course blocking a simple punch to the face is easy -- it's the most obvious thing, the first thing you learn. An infant can wave it's arm in front of its face in response to an incoming object.
So why is it so damn hard in application? Because you're not sitting there waiting for the punch so that you can block it -- you're moving, thinking, and distracting the hell out of yourself in your attempt to win. There are a thousand situational and internal mental and social complications that prevent a person from being in the right place with the right frame of mind to execute a "simple" block.
After 6 years of training, my teachers can still stand in front of me and say, "Alright, all I'm going to do is punch you in the nose. All you have to do is move or block it. Ready?" "I'm ready!" I say. Then they hit me in the nose before I can move or block it, from standing several feet away. Dammit! There are incalculable ways to not be ready for something, even though you think you are.
--K
So why is it so damn hard in application? Because you're not sitting there waiting for the punch so that you can block it -- you're moving, thinking, and distracting the hell out of yourself in your attempt to win. There are a thousand situational and internal mental and social complications that prevent a person from being in the right place with the right frame of mind to execute a "simple" block.
After 6 years of training, my teachers can still stand in front of me and say, "Alright, all I'm going to do is punch you in the nose. All you have to do is move or block it. Ready?" "I'm ready!" I say. Then they hit me in the nose before I can move or block it, from standing several feet away. Dammit! There are incalculable ways to not be ready for something, even though you think you are.
--K
| QUOTE (krishcane) |
| So why is it so damn hard in application? Because you're not sitting there waiting for the punch so that you can block it -- you're moving, thinking, and distracting the hell out of yourself in your attempt to win. There are a thousand situational and internal mental and social complications that prevent a person from being in the right place with the right frame of mind to execute a "simple" block. After 6 years of training, my teachers can still stand in front of me and say, "Alright, all I'm going to do is punch you in the nose. All you have to do is move or block it. Ready?" "I'm ready!" I say. Then they hit me in the nose before I can move or block it, from standing several feet away. Dammit! There are incalculable ways to not be ready for something, even though you think you are. |
If you're thinking about what you're doing, you've already lost. Reflexes are much, much faster than conscious thought... the entire point of training and practice is to teach your reflexes how to do the job without intervention from your higher thought processes, so that when someone tries to punch you in the face, you don't have to be ready. Your eyes see the incoming, feed the message straight to your motor control centers, and they put your body into motion and counter the blow. And then when the other guy's lying on the ground wondering what the hell just happened and why it hurt so much, your conscious mind goes, "Hey, that guy just tried to hit me!"
When someone says, "I'm going to punch you in the face now," what they're doing is psyching you back into consciously thinking about how you're going to counter them... which makes you much slower when the moment comes to actually do it, because you're trying to make your conscious brain run the show instead of letting your reflexes do it.
Conversely, the anecdote with the one-move woman sounds like an attempt to do the reverse... trick her into getting her conscious mind out of the loop, stop thinking about what she's doing, and just throw the blow reflexively. It may be only one move, but if her opponent doesn't have an equally reflexively programmed counter, it'll most likely land.
"Wax on, wash off!"
-Siege
-Siege
that, and simple things usually beat complex things, in all facets of life.
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| If you're thinking about what you're doing, you've already lost. Reflexes are much, much faster than conscious thought... |
Yes, of course, but easier said than done, isn't it? Having the experience of perfect non-thought to allow the reflexes to come through is easily done. Being able to sustain the state no matter what happens takes a lot more training. What my current teachers are masters of is creating a situation where you think, despite the fact that you know better then to think. Then, when you think, they hit you and you spazz because you were thinking. It's frustrating because you know better, but they know human psychology. They know common triggers that break people out of the no-thinking reflex-only state, and they set it up.
One of the simplest ones I've seen work consistently is to just wait. You can tell someone you're going to hit them (and this applies in training or in a real fight -- I've seen it work in both) and then stand there just out of reach not throwing a strike. For a few seconds, they're partially adrenalized and in the perfect no-thinking ready-to-defend state. If you wait... and wait... it seems like an eternity, but it's only 10 or 15 seconds for most people.... suddenly their brain kicks on. It's thinking something like, "So come on already..." or "Oh, he was bluffing..." or "What's he waiting for?" or "Have we started yet?" It doesn't matter what the actual thought is -- you can feel the intensity of their focus fade for just a fraction of a second. Their eyes dim a little, maybe their body shifts a little... if you surf that moment right in to their nose, highly trained people don't even move.
--K
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| "Wax on, wash off!" -Siege |
Rock on, brother.
I salute anyone who has seen that movie!
Actually, it is better to have conscious thought rather than reflexes. That is why I like sparring with people who pratice extensive karate katas. Their responses are programmed. Yes, their reactions are very fast but once you get past their reaction, it is like fighting a robot. More dangerous are people who just practise the moves and leave it at that. Their responses are more varied.
One of my instructors likened katas to memorising and opening or a defense in chess, it works and it even can win you fights, but unless you understand the kata thoroughly and not blindly(some people concentrate on the motions to keep themselves centered) going through the motions, you are going to lose.
One of my instructors likened katas to memorising and opening or a defense in chess, it works and it even can win you fights, but unless you understand the kata thoroughly and not blindly(some people concentrate on the motions to keep themselves centered) going through the motions, you are going to lose.
Krishcane: five years ago I had exactly that happen to me. I will never forget it.
~J
~J
I scoff at all your so-called "martial arts" and "fighting styles". They are as nothing before the mighty Tae Kwon Leap.
BOOT TO THE HEAD!!!!
BOOT TO THE HEAD!!!!
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Krishcane: five years ago I had exactly that happen to me. I will never forget it. ~J |
Isn't it fascinating? It's embarassing and frustrating as the person getting hit, but it's also really cool. It left an impression on me too, pun intended. This level of skill is what I'm beginning to study now. It took the first 5 years of training to even be able to notice and appreciate such a situation. It looks like it takes 5 or 10 more years to get good at setting it up.
Thanks for letting me know you understand what I was describing. Makes me feel understood.
--K
| QUOTE |
| Actually, it is better to have conscious thought rather than reflexes. |
I see what you're getting at, but you're mostly wrong. To be completely accurate, it's much better to have properly trained reflexes than have to rely on conscious thought, because trained reflexes are many times faster.
What you're describing are improperly-trained reflexes, where people are taught to follow a rote pattern without actually training their reflexes or reactions. This happens a lot when people are taught katas without application. (When you're trained in katas *with* application, that changes very quickly.)
People who have been trained into good fighters tend to have only a few basic techniques that they actually use. The difference is, they get so good at those techniques, they become damn near unstoppable. Their reflexes have been trained to respond with a few simple moves, which are highly adaptive to many situations. The kata guy you describe has been trained to respond with an inflexible, complex maneuver, which is why he gets into trouble rather quickly.
Kris: That sounds an awful lot like my old school. I was trained extensively in one basic jab, one simple punch that was drilled into me over and over until I can throw it repeatedly in my sleep. About a year ago, I got involved in a sparring school-- full contact with pads. I couldn't wear my glasses, because of the helmets, so I was competing totally blind; and I was competing with people at least 10 years younger. Even blind, I managed to land so many basic jabs that I won against the students, and I managed to land several decent blows against an instructor. (Originally, that instructor derided my punch, saying it was too weak. But when he saw how fast I could deliver it, he was duly impressed. He'd never had a student land a solid hit on him in the first week before.)
As Bruce Lee says, the ultimate style is to have no style. A great fighter should be able to seamlessly mix styles, transcending such categorization. But my favorite style would have to be jeet kune do, which itself was started by Bruce Lee. Way of the Intercepting Fist. It's all about defense and counterattacks.
I don't know shit about martial arts, but I agree. Bruce had more charisma, intensity, and style than any other martial arts film star I have ever seen.
And so my favorite style isn't Jeet Kune Do (boring!) but "Bruce Lee in movies"
And so my favorite style isn't Jeet Kune Do (boring!) but "Bruce Lee in movies"
| QUOTE (Phaeton) | ||
Rock on, brother. I salute anyone who has seen that movie! |
Hahaha, the martial art that Mr. Miyagi practises and teaches "Daniel-san" in the movie is Goju-ryu which is what I do. Our dojo would crack up every time we saw the movies (re-runs on TV and rentals) but we'd cheer every time Mr. Miyagi and Daniel made a move!
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