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De Badd Ass
In every shadowrun game that I have ever played, someone would shoot at Lone Star without remorse. They shoot security guards, night watchmen, and rent-a-cops - people just doing their jobs.

Abbandon calls these runners "ametuers". What do you think? Are runners the good guys or the bad guys in Shadowrun?
Konsaki
I'd run for my life. Lonestar, when they raid, aint no joke. Their beatcops might be doughnut dunkers, but the SWAT is a different story.
Runners are the grey portion of the story that can be on both sides of the fence at once.
Ophis
Killing cops gets them far to interested in you. Run and live to fight another day, though I mostly support the zero hostile contact with the enemy type planning.
Mistwalker
Run.

Like Konsaki said, if the Star raids you, they have made sure that they brought more than enough people and gear to do the job.

When I was a player, and now my players, try to limit the dead. This for several reasons: The more you kill, the higher the resources spent to find and neutralize you; The less you kill, the greater the chance that the sec forces will try to capture you; The longer it can take to get a High Threat Response team to be called in (one mission, they splashed rot gut on a couple of guards, left the empty bottle there, so the alarm didn't go off when other guards found them).

Often, my players will "heal" up a NPC they just shot, to make sure that they live. Mostly using Force 1 Heal spell, but the NPC lives.
BlueRondo
I'd run just because the types of characters I play wouldn't stand a chance.
Eben McKay
I'd surrender. Honestly, if Lone Star was raiding my safehouse, that means they know where I am and who I am. That also means they have the place surrounded and under surveillance. Shooting it out is a death sentence, and running never seems to really work against cops, at least judging by the daily news.

Surrender, but not before calling every contact and ally I can think of to arrange a daring extraction from the paddywagon that's taking me away.
Schaeffer
We once shot a few on the way to an escape tunnel, blew up the safehouse... and then left town for a few years.
Ryu
I will flee if my safehouse is raided. The only exception would be obviously unable attackers.

The basic assumption is that any attacker will come prepared for the task at hand, and I won´t bet my life that they are incompetent.
adamu
Killing cops - man, moral issues depend on the character, but just in terms of survival - even shoot at a cop, private or public, much less kill one, and the entire department and every other department in the region and the feds all make catching you their number one priority. For real. That's how they stay alive - it's like a nuclear deterrent - every mug on the streets knows that's what'll happen, and they also know what'll happen once they get caught.
Depending on the neighborhood, the day, the jurisdiction, whatever, they may or may not outgun you or be outgunned, but they will always have better discipline and better organization than any criminal element you would care to name, and they can operate in the open with the approval of society. The deterrent factor is how they make sure this advantage is in effect every second of every day every officer is on the street.
nezumi
QUOTE (Eben McKay)
running never seems to really work against cops, at least judging by the daily news.

You believe the news? Bah, you've already lost.

I'd run. At worst, I'm caught and it's resisting arrest tagged onto what's certainly already a considerable sentence. If I'm caught, I disappear into the system and I'm basically dead. If I shoot it out, at least I have some fun before I'm dead.
toturi
I vote for shoot it out. Why? If LS or KE or any cop corp raided your safe house, they would have had enough people to kill you and make sure you did not run away. Surrender might be a good option, but unless you like playing as a company man(enforced with cranial bombs) or prisoners(with mage masks for those Awakened). Roleplaying a meat puppet isn't my idea of fun. Shoot it out and go out with a bang, YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD.
The Jopp
If the STAR raids your safehouse and there was NO warning at all then they are good enough to take you down or your security SUCK.

Remember, you can seed your entire neighbourhood with sensor tags with tiny little cameras or motion sensors and police radio scanners and tiny drones.

And - always have a way out and a backup plan if the STAR show up.

Run or surrender is my choice - dying is the last resort and a way to give up.

Besides, surrendering to the star has its own roleplaying opportunities to be forced to run for the star.
lorechaser
I think far too many people play their runners as sociopathic.

While a level of disregard for society is implied, the guys that kill everyone in the building because they can and blow up a 48 story structure to take out one target just aren't that interesting to me.

Our first session of SR4, we had a nice 10 minute argument about this exact topic (in character). It was pretty entertaining.

Luckily, our sociopaths aren't that good at being sociopaths, so we left a few alive.

The true sociopaths make sure that the targets are already dead when the "bleeding hearts" arrive, or simply listen to the discussion for a couple minutes, then nod, and execute the prisoner.

Jack Kain
I'd only shoot it out if I had a healthy supply of gel rounds or stick and shock,
Non leathal but still effective.
blakkie
It really depends on what I'm estimating my legal options to be. I might surrender if I think I've got the case or the contacts to beat whatever rap. I'm only going to get into a shootout if it'll buy time I need to run.

If you are between me and the exit you're going to get hit till you are nolonger a threat or an impedment. Hopefully you'll only be incapacitated and pull through.
Zeitgeist
Running would be the best option. Shooting it out would go very poorly, as the Star's got more toys, more resources, and more people than you. Surendering would also be a bad idea, as a fair amount of the characters out there are SINless, and civil rights tend to get a bit fuzzy without that ID code. Besides, if they friggin' raid your house, then I'm fairly sure they've got something that you can't wriggle out of.

I honestly don't think it comes down to sociopathic behavior, and rather what's inteligent. When has a shootout with the Man ever ended up with the criminal sitting on a white-sanded beach in Mexico sipping a real margarita (none of that mixed stuff with the crushed ice!) getting massaged by a group of beautiful women?

Granted, running rarely turns out that way either, but you get my point. cool.gif
Steak and Spirits
Heh.

Depends on the character type. Generally, if my safe house is getting raided, Knight Errant must be packing some serious heat, because they're rolling through the bad part of town of -the bad part of town-.

Which is fine. Usually gives me an opportunity to put this homemade napalm to use.
Dale
Run!
While leaving a surprise for the corporate piggies on a 5 minute timer.
Cheops
I voted to Run but that was just a catch-all vote. Depending on the type of character I'm playing and what my character thinks they have on him I might just surrender. In SR4 I'm finding that I play a lot of characters that only have restricted items if that. Makes it a lot less nasty if I get picked up--forces them to have something concrete on me. Even if I am SINless, you just hire the right type of lawyer (hello Wolfram and Hart) and he'll be able to get you out of the really high profile stuff. Otherwise just go and spend a couple of years in the pokey.

Unless I'm playing a mage. Mages get it really rough in jail.
Mistwalker
Mages, if they are smart, take masking as their first metamagic power.
Makes it harder for the quick astral perception to make you as a mage.
Well, as long as they don't have you on camera flinging about spells....
kzt
QUOTE (lorechaser)
The true sociopaths make sure that the targets are already dead when the "bleeding hearts" arrive, or simply listen to the discussion for a couple minutes, then nod, and execute the prisoner.

True sociopaths don't really care. They have poor impulse control. And target surival is really unimportant to them other then how it impacts them. Then again, YOUR survival is unimportant to them other then how it impacts them. Everyone is just an actor in their personal drama, not actually someone who is signficant other then that.


"A psychopath is defined as having no concern for the feelings of others and a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem egocentric and lack insight and any sense of responsibility or consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative, and incapable of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression. They have no empathy, remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to their behavior. In short, they truly are devoid of conscience."
fistandantilus4.0
Ran my group through Bottled Demon recently, so we saw this in action. The people that stood their ground and tried to keep shooting it out with the Star, jsut a couple of patrol cars mind you, died . The people that beat feet, they lived. They had to relocate to somewhere out of the Star's juristiction, but they lived.

Another character, a night one gunslinger adept had been leaving a lto of bodies on the floor for a while, and had a run in with the cops, and downed a bunch of them as well. He got smart and moved to Europe, when he found out that they had been tailing him and were about to raid his doss. It is call shadowrun after all. If you find yourself out of the shadows, with a spotlight on you, run.
eidolon
Hmm. I think it would depend heavily on a combination of what character I was playing, and what the situation that led to the Star showing up in the first place.
Gargs454
I've generally found that shooting it out with cops/military/etc. is a bad idea. As others have said, these groups can operate in the open and have the resources to throw a lot of heat at you. Add in the fact that unlike games like D&D, in Shadowrun you are always fairly vulnerable to even the most basic attacks, and it becomes a no brainer.

As such, my first option would be to try to run. I always try to make sure I have multiple exit strategies from my safehouse, as well as a few surprises that might slow down any unwelcome guests. If escape doesn't appear to be an option then I'll try surrender. There's always the chance that I might be able to bust loose later after all. The only time I'll consider fighting it out with the cops is if they leave me no choice, i.e. they clearly offer no quarter and I have no avenues for escape. In that case, then I really have no options, and I would likely have a few harsh words for my GM afterwards (assuming that I or my group had not created the situation in the first place).
fool
my safe houses are usually in the barrens or the orc underground; places lonestar generally doesn't go.
mfb
QUOTE (toturi)
I vote for shoot it out. Why? If LS or KE or any cop corp raided your safe house, they would have had enough people to kill you and make sure you did not run away. Surrender might be a good option, but unless you like playing as a company man(enforced with cranial bombs) or prisoners(with mage masks for those Awakened). Roleplaying a meat puppet isn't my idea of fun. Shoot it out and go out with a bang, YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD.

you're applying out-of-game logic unevenly. if the cops kick down your door, in-game, there are two possibilities: the GM wants to change the game completely (from a normal game of SR to some sort of prison or i've-got-a-bomb-in-my-head drama), or he doesn't. he could also just want to kill you, but the repercussions of that aren't really worth discussing.

if he does want to change the game, it probably doesn't matter much what you do. if your character dies in the firefight, you'll probably roll up a new character--who will have a bomb in his head, or will be in prison. if he doesn't want to change the game, well, what you do is up to your character.
Lantzer
I disagree, mfb. Sometimes, it's just the GM reminding the players that actions have consequences and if they want to save their hoop they need to cover their hoop.

Occasionally a character needs to be sacrificed to bring that point home to the group if they are particularly obtuse.
lorechaser
So cynical, mfb. I'm shocked.

I haven't played under my current GM long enough to know why he'd throw the Star at us. I know my previous DM (from d20) would simply take things to the logical conclusion. If the Star was coming, it was simply because we did something to warrant their warrant. He didn't plan for us to die, he didn't have a metaplot. We simply did something that required the game world react in such a manner.

So I'd run like hell.
mfb
QUOTE (Lantzer)
I disagree, mfb. Sometimes, it's just the GM reminding the players that actions have consequences and if they want to save their hoop they need to cover their hoop.

i'd put that under "the GM doesn't want to change the game".
fistandantilus4.0
Shocked that someone who plays Shadowrun would be cynical? I'm ... suprised! wink.gif

I guess it really depends on the GM and their style at the end of the day. I know a few GM's that would do things exactly the way mfb says. The only time something liek that happens is when the GM watns to change something, which really doesn't make much sense. because by then there have most likely bee na few times that such a response would make sense, and there was none, so it sets expectations from the players. So when something like that happens, they're caught totally by suprise, both in and out of character.
Mistwalker
Well, if the GM wanted to start or increase the consequences of actions, he could let his players know by "news" reports about a crack down by the Star, due to xxx incident, where xxx civilians died.

Personally, I email all the players, the day after the gaming session, with a "news" page, like they have now at most news websites. They get a brief look at the consequences, if any, of their actions, along with a potentialy a few hints of things to come.
toturi
QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 17 2006, 04:53 AM)
you're applying out-of-game logic unevenly. if the cops kick down your door, in-game, there are two possibilities: the GM wants to change the game completely (from a normal game of SR to some sort of prison or i've-got-a-bomb-in-my-head drama), or he doesn't. he could also just want to kill you, but the repercussions of that aren't really worth discussing.

if he does want to change the game, it probably doesn't matter much what you do. if your character dies in the firefight, you'll probably roll up a new character--who will have a bomb in his head, or will be in prison. if he doesn't want to change the game, well, what you do is up to your character.

I think option 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I think if the GM has cops kicking in the door of your safehouse(which was presumably safe), both options dovetails quite well. If the GM doesn't want to change the game but keep the PCs alive, there can be less drastic measures.
kzt
The other issue that nobody seems to have picked up is that "how do you know it's Lonestar"?

It's not hard to get a shirt that says "Police".

If you fight it out with the cops you are probably going to die. If you surrender to bad guys dressed as cops it can be very, very bad.

"One infamous example took place in 1994, when a group of men entered the home of Lisa Renee and abducted her as retribution for a drug deal, which they’d conducted with her brothers, gone wrong. In a chilling 911 call, as Renee pleads with the operator to send help, one of the men announces through the door that he’s the “FBI.” Renee says to the operator, “Oh, they’re the FBI.” One intruder then says, “Open the door and we’ll talk.” Renee says again, “They’re the FBI. They say they’re the FBI, ma’am,” and opens the door. The call ends with screaming.153 The men kidnapped Renee, raped and beat her over the next several days, then buried her alive in a shallow grave.154 Given its sensational elements, the Renee case is perhaps the most famous case of armed intruders posing as police. But it’s by no means the only example. New York City alone reports more than 1,000 cases each year of people pretending to be police officers, many of them in attempts to rob homes and businesses."
mfb
QUOTE (toturi)
I think option 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive.

i'll certainly give you that. if wiping out the current runner team and replacing them with new characters isn't a change of pace, i don't know what is.

and for the record, i'm hurt. me? cynical?
krayola red
QUOTE (toturi)
I think option 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I think if the GM has cops kicking in the door of your safehouse(which was presumably safe), both options dovetails quite well. If the GM doesn't want to change the game but keep the PCs alive, there can be less drastic measures.

Yeah, but that's not the point. You're applying out-of-game knowledge about how the GM runs his universe, which is poor RP to begin with, and isn't correct for a majority, or even a significant minority, of GMs.
Fortune
The original question doesn't give anywhere near enough information to make an informed decision. Little things like ... what has my character done lately to deserve this? Are there viable escape routes still available to the character? How well armed is the character? What physical condition is he in? Does he have companions? Would any of those companions be put in a worse situation by surrendering?

Of course, my main question would have to be ... because each is an individual, which character should I answer for?
knel
If Lone Star comes to your house you should attempt to escape and be shot while doing so. Because if you live you'll be interrogated and burn all your contacts and if you shoot it out you'll just increase the resources allocated to burning your contacts and teammates.

I for one appreciate the new notoriety and public awareness stats so that (shall we say) "obtuse" players have a handy place ON THEIR CHARACTER SHEET that tells them they might be drawing unwanted attention.

Like if it gets to a certain point you just wake up naked except for a hood and electrodes taped to your balls.
Konsaki
QUOTE (knel)
Like if it gets to a certain point you just wake up naked except for a hood and electrodes taped to your balls.

I'm pretty sure some people in the SR world pay for that service. eek.gif
Draconis
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Oct 17 2006, 05:20 AM)
QUOTE (knel @ Oct 17 2006, 02:16 PM)
Like if it gets to a certain point you just wake up naked except for a hood and electrodes taped to your balls.

I'm pretty sure some people in the SR world pay for that service. eek.gif

Um no comment. biggrin.gif

Seriously though running is always the best option and you should be prepared to do it at any time. Your things are disposable, your life isn't.

For this exact scenario see the 1994 movie The Specialist or the similar movie The Professional.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 16 2006, 09:37 AM)
I vote for shoot it out. Why? If LS or KE or any cop corp raided your safe house, they would have had enough people to kill you and make sure you did not run away. Surrender might be a good option, but unless you like playing as a company man(enforced with cranial bombs) or prisoners(with mage masks for those Awakened). Roleplaying a meat puppet isn't my idea of fun. Shoot it out and go out with a bang, YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD.

you're applying out-of-game logic unevenly. if the cops kick down your door, in-game, there are two possibilities: the GM wants to change the game completely (from a normal game of SR to some sort of prison or i've-got-a-bomb-in-my-head drama), or he doesn't. he could also just want to kill you, but the repercussions of that aren't really worth discussing.

if he does want to change the game, it probably doesn't matter much what you do. if your character dies in the firefight, you'll probably roll up a new character--who will have a bomb in his head, or will be in prison. if he doesn't want to change the game, well, what you do is up to your character.

Or, maybe the cops just kicked in the wrong door.

There was a case up in Titusville about 20 years ago. The cops entered a house on a "no knock" drug bust. One of the cops opened a bedroom door and tossed in a stun grenade. The stunned occupant woke up shooting blind, and killed the cop.

End result, the shooter was not charged because the crack house was next door, and the shooter's wife was the one that alerted the cops in the first place - three weeks earlier. She ended up suing the cops for tossing a stun grenade into the baby's room.

There was initially some controversy as to whether dispatch confused the crack house address and the informants address. Anyhow, never did find out what came about, as Titusville is in the heart of the "Good ole Boys" Belt, and there was an undisclosed settlement.
mfb
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
Or, maybe the cops just kicked in the wrong door.

i'm talking out-of-game reasons for the cops to kick in your door, not in-character reasons. in-character, the cops' reason can be anything at all--they got the address wrong, they have evidence on you, they got paid off by one of your enemies, whatever.

my point, basically, is that there's no "best" option, here. if there's only a few cops, shooting your way out or running might work. if there's lots of cops, surrender might be a good idea. the GM's reasoning for having the cops show up shouldn't really factor into your decision. if the GM wants to screw you, you're going to be screwed no matter what you do, so you should go with whatever makes the most sense in-character. if the GM doesn't want to screw you, you're probably not going to get screwed if respond appropriately, so you should go with whatever makes the most sense in-character.
imperialus
I voted surrender though it would probably depend on the circumstances. If I had the opportunity to get my shit together and jump through a window I would, but I figure if the STAR were to do a proper raid on a known shadowrunner they wouldn't pull any punches in which case surrender might be the only option. They'd have every means of surveillance at their disposal from spirits to little spider drones crawling through the duct work just waiting until my PC was on the can, in the shower or asleep on the couch with a 142 year old Oprah prattling away on the Trid before they busted down the door.
imperialus
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
There was a case up in Titusville about 20 years ago. The cops entered a house on a "no knock" drug bust. One of the cops opened a bedroom door and tossed in a stun grenade. The stunned occupant woke up shooting blind, and killed the cop.

Buddy's damn lucky the cops didn't return fire and splatter his brains all over the headboard. Seriously how did he explain his way out of that in the 30 second it would take to get the message across to a cop more nervous than an alterboy at a church sleepover with a near lethal dose of caffeine coursing through his body who just saw his partner get shot?
blakkie
QUOTE (Draconis @ Oct 17 2006, 11:13 AM)
Seriously though running is always the best option and you should be prepared to do it at any time. Your things are disposable, your life isn't.  

For this exact scenario see the 1994 movie The Specialist or the similar movie The Professional.

Umm, actually if I remember correctly...and I'm pretty sure I do as it is pivotal to the movie and quite memorable.....that involved one hell of a shootout. The result was one of them, damn near of them both, got away. nyahnyah.gif

Of course that movie was drempt up by a 12-year-old (IIRC reportedly the age at which Luc Besson first came up with the concept for the movie), but then I guess that should fall into the norm within the typical SR world. cool.gif
Critias
Some combination of "run" and "shoot it out," depending on the character. I don't really see what this has to do with someone being a professional or an ameteur, however.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (imperialus @ Oct 18 2006, 02:30 AM)
QUOTE (De Badd Ass @ Oct 18 2006, 03:40 AM)
There was a case up in Titusville about 20 years ago. The cops entered a house on a "no knock" drug bust. One of the cops opened a bedroom door and tossed in a stun grenade. The stunned occupant woke up shooting blind, and killed the cop.

Buddy's damn lucky the cops didn't return fire and splatter his brains all over the headboard. Seriously how did he explain his way out of that in the 30 second it would take to get the message across to a cop more nervous than an alterboy at a church sleepover with a near lethal dose of caffeine coursing through his body who just saw his partner get shot?

I always wondered that myself.

Update: I may have the facts wrong, or maybe not. I searched on the Internet, and every hit tells the story differently. I was living in Brevard County at the time, but I was only following the story on my car radio. The actual event occured before Al Gore opened the Internet to the public, and all related posting is way after the fact.

You can Google "Charles DiGristine Titusville" and read for yourself.


Back on Topic: I was originally trying to figure out what percentage of runners shoot cops. "Are runners the good guys or The bad guys?", is a question related to the SR videogame thread.

Right now, approx. 18% vote for shoot it out. That supports the hypothesis that there's one in every group.
Critias
But you're not asking "Would your runner ever shoot a cop?" You're asking something else entirely, with "What would your runner do if Lone Star kicked in his door?" Those are two very very different questions. There are assumptions that need to be made when Lone Star kicks in your door (assumptions like it's a SWAT team with support not just a beat cop or two, assumptions like they've got you surrounded and outgunned, assumptions like you're not in full combat readiness mode, assumptions like there's no profit in it for you to stand and fight instead of surrender to live another day, etc).

Being woken up in the middle of the night by full-on SWAT guys flash-banging your crash-pad and swinging in your windows and stuff has nothing to do with "would you shoot a cop?"

And -- please remember -- Lone Star aren't the cops. They're a private security corp, ever bit as much as Knight Errant, or any security guard your Shadowrunners will run into while on corporate property somewhere. They just happen to have the contract for all the corners of Seattle that those other corporate security corps don't, and they (due in equal parts to an IC pr campaign and an OOC misunderstanding on the part of Shadowrun players everywhere) have most people thinking they're the cops. They aren't. They're a private security company.

Shooting one of them is no different than shooting that KE guy that came running at you during a botched raid on an Ares facility, or trading bullets with those Renraku guys when you were on a job against an r & d joint. Lone Star can go looking for you places Ares and Renraku aren't supposed to, but if you piss off any corporation enough by shooting enough of their guys, they'll find you just as surely as Lone Star will.

Which muddies up your question even more -- in reality, you're asking "How do you respond to any heavily armed, heavily armored, well prepared, tactically practiced, team of expert shooters that ambushes you in your home while you're unprepared for a fight?"

Which is, again, worlds and worlds away from "Would your character ever shoot a Lone Star Operative?"
Mistwalker
Except for certain corp property, crimes committed in UCAS are subject to UCAS laws.
Lone Star in Seattle, is seen, perceived and does the functions of "cops".

If you shoot an employee of the security company that has the law enforcement contract for that area of UCAS, it is the equivalent of shooting a cop, and I am sure that the charges against you will be similar to what the charges are for shooting a cop today.
If you shoot one of them, all law enforcement contract holders will treat you as a "cop" killer.

At least, that is my perspective.
De Badd Ass
I apologize for taking the discussion off track with comments about the Titusville case. That was just me suggesting that there are more than two reasons for LoneStar to raid your safehouse. Reason 3: they are at the wrong house.

As pointed out by someone else, and I agree: if you don't see them coming, it ain't a safehouse.

You are right. The real question is: in a SR videogame are runners the good guys or the bad guys? THe follow on question is, what about cop killing runners.

Then you suggest that it's okay to shoot atLone Star because they are contract cops, rather than police department employees. That takes me back to Florida where many undercover cops were contract employees. As soon as their cover is blown, they had to move on. I know that in other places, they wore masks during arrests. That, of course, violates your constitutional rights to face your accuser. Another digression, sorry.
Draconis
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Draconis @ Oct 17 2006, 11:13 AM)
Seriously though running is always the best option and you should be prepared to do it at any time. Your things are disposable, your life isn't. 

For this exact scenario see the 1994 movie The Specialist or the similar movie The Professional.

Umm, actually if I remember correctly...and I'm pretty sure I do as it is pivotal to the movie and quite memorable.....that involved one hell of a shootout. The result was one of them, damn near of them both, got away. nyahnyah.gif

Of course that movie was drempt up by a 12-year-old (IIRC reportedly the age at which Luc Besson first came up with the concept for the movie), but then I guess that should fall into the norm within the typical SR world. cool.gif

Yes it does involve a shootout. You'll notice he also gets killed. But when I meant the scenario I was just refering to cops show up at your secret base. What do you do?
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