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The Jopp
Runners as good guys or bad guys depends entirely on the background of the runner. Some might regards the STAR as pigs that should die and other see them as a necessary evil.

Copkiller runners are first and foremost a liability for the rest of the team as there is no stopping the STAR from throwing the entire team into the same category as the killer i.e shoot on sight.

Also, shooting lonestar is bad for biz as your rep might go down the drain as someone who draws too much attention to yourself. Second, there might be problems for the runner if said Mr.Johnson and the Fixer decides that there is too much risk that the heat might be brought back to them and decides to “remove” the problematic runner from the equation.

Killing STAR is bad, SHOOTING the STAR is another thing entirely – just remember the following:

Tazers, Stick N’ Shock or Gel rounds. grinbig.gif biggrin.gif grinbig.gif biggrin.gif
Critias
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
I apologize for taking the discussion off track with comments about the Titusville case. That was just me suggesting that there are more than two reasons for LoneStar to raid your safehouse. Reason 3: they are at the wrong house.

As pointed out by someone else, and I agree: if you don't see them coming, it ain't a safehouse.

You are right. The real question is: in a SR videogame are runners the good guys or the bad guys? THe follow on question is, what about cop killing runners.

Then you suggest that it's okay to shoot at Lone Star because they are contract cops, rather than police department employees. That takes me back to Florida where many undercover cops were contract employees. As soon as their cover is blown, they had to move on. I know that in other places, they wore masks during arrests. That, of course, violates your constitutional rights to face your accuser. Another digression, sorry.

I'd counter by neatly saying Shadowrunners aren't good guys or bad guys. They're protagonists. Ta-da! Problem solved.

Oh, and I never suggested it was okay to shoot anyone. I just said it's no less okay, morally, in my book to shoot at Lone Star than any other security guard. They're security guards with bigger beats, but still (in Shadowrun) just security guards.

Why are you basing the good or evil of a person based solely on their willingness to kill a policeman, anyways? What about lying? Stealing? Breaking and entering? Killing a civilian? Killing a child? Killing a contract, as a paid assassin? Killing anyone? I'm curious as to why the line seems to have been drawn right where it has. I'm also still confused as to how the "safehouse assault" got pulled into any sort of general "good guy versus bad guy" question.

If anything, you could very easily see shooting at the cops (even the real life cops) in such an event as less evil than capping someone at random. In the chaos and terror of armed intruders rushing your house in masks and armor, I could certainly see myself as far more likely to hastily shoot at them than not (were I capable of getting to my weapon). What does shooting a cop who's kicking in your door (with six or eight friends) and waving a submachinegun in your face have to do with you being a "bad guy?" What about the bodyguards that died on that last extraction, or someone caught in a crossfire when you dodge an Enemy from your background, or even just the thug ganger down the street?

I mean, wouldn't offing an ambulance driver or fireman be just as big (if not a bigger) sign of someone being a "bad guy?" Cops, at least in this scenario, are rushing into your house in the middle of the night pointing guns at you and tossing flash-bangs and stuff. Wouldn't it be more "bad guy" of you to kill some EMT or firefighter, who's not even hurting anyone? Or even more bad guy to just kill a cop while he's writing someone a ticket or otherwise minding his own business?

I guess I'm just confused by the thread title, compared to the poll's question, compared to the opening text, compared to the expounded-upon purpose for the thread. It's all really strange to me.
De Badd Ass
I picked Lone Star because in most games, the cops would be the good guys. I postulated that in a SR MMORPG Lone Star would be the good guys. I suggested that a SR MMORPG Lone Star should be PCs, not just NPCs. I figured it would be an interesting PvP where runners do their thing, and Lone Star investigates.

In response, some people implied that Shadowrunners are the good guys.

You are right, it was a badly formed poll. What can I say, it's my first. I should ask Emo to post a better one.
The Jopp

When it comes to the moral distinction of WHO you kill I would also say that depends if they have a gun aimed at you. Someone aiming a gun at me would risk getting shot. Children, bystanders, ambulance drivers etc are bystanders who are (mostly) unarmed and thus innocent – there is no reason to shoot them.

Runners killing people at random as a standard procedure will soon be either in jail or dead – either by law enforcement, team members or third parties.
Eryk the Red
I wouldn't use "who is threatening me" as a moral standard. It ignores the possibility that they may be morally justified in threatening (or even harming) you. Cops aren't necessarily good, and neither are runners. The cop who draws his gun and tells you to freeze because you're running through the street with your Predator in hand, though... Is it okay to shoot him? Is he wrong for threatening you? Obviously there are other factors. Shadowrun isn't like World of Darkness, where the focus is placed on moral conflict. Morality is blurry and bad people get away with their sins. But if you have the urge, you can draw attention to questionable morality, and make players think.

There's no right answer, least of all in Shadowrun. (I do believe there are wrong answers, though.)

But if you can make a Shadowrun player think, you have achieved something incredible. wink.gif
nezumi
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
I picked Lone Star because in most games, the cops would be the good guys. I postulated that in a SR MMORPG Lone Star would be the good guys.

In most MMORPGs right now people also wear leather armor and run around wielding swords.

Alright, bad example there, but the point is, cyberpunk is not 'most games'. One of the thing that makes it different is the concept of there being no 'good guys', cops included. In shadowrun cops are, at best, wage slaves who have a thing for guns and, at worst, a government funded gang.

Put this concept of "good guys" out of your head. The only good guys are being eaten by sewer rats and ghouls, because all that's left around here are survivors.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (The Jopp)
When it comes to the moral distinction of WHO you kill I would also say that depends if they have a gun aimed at you. Someone aiming a gun at me would risk getting shot. Children, bystanders, ambulance drivers etc are bystanders who are (mostly) unarmed and thus innocent – there is no reason to shoot them.

Not always, sometimes leaving a witness that can ID you to the cops and link you to various crimes can be just as dangerous as a guy with a gun in the long run.
The Jopp
QUOTE (FlakJacket)

Not always, sometimes leaving a witness that can ID you to the cops and link you to various crimes can be just as dangerous as a guy with a gun in the long run.

Point taken - but such killings would still be a (very) last resort.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (The Jopp)
When it comes to the moral distinction of WHO you kill I would also say that depends if they have a gun aimed at you. Someone aiming a gun at me would risk getting shot. Children, bystanders, ambulance drivers etc are bystanders who are (mostly) unarmed and thus innocent – there is no reason to shoot them.

Not always, sometimes leaving a witness that can ID you to the cops and link you to various crimes can be just as dangerous as a guy with a gun in the long run.

...that's what a couple BPs in disguise skill and nanopaste (or the adept abilities facial sculpt & melanin control) is for.

Blandness is also a nice quality...

"well, he looked...kind of average I guess."
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Oct 18 2006, 02:29 PM)
Not always, sometimes leaving a witness that can ID you to the cops and link you to various crimes can be just as dangerous as a guy with a gun in the long run.

Point taken - but such killings would still be a (very) last resort.

Pre-emptive justifiable self-preservation, that's the stuff Hero's are made of. cool.gif
Yoan
On killing cops: "The choice between doing ten years and taking out some stupid motherfucker, ain't no choice at all. But I ain't no madman." -- Pulp Fiction

Safehouse gets raided? Well, time to run in this case: like running into an ambush, you're probably going to lose considering they are prepared, while you are not.
Warmaster Lah
Depends on the character I'd play... but I tend to favor keeping a low profile. And the one thing that is the exact opposite of keeping a low profile is shooting at the cops.

If I'm trying to be a professional runner then that means trying to stay a nameless faceles guttersnipe is key.

Appearing on the Trid clearly shooting and killing a cop, because they recovered his eyecam recorder, will pretty much nuke my career in the shadows right there. (Unless I am wearing a Balaclava of course.)

Mind you I dont do this particularly out of moral reasons. Its just as a cynical underworld type its just better for biz. Unless I am playing a pacifist or someone more closer to my real personality.
lorechaser
I think the reason it's seen as worse to shoot at the Star is because they are, at least in theory, acting appropriately, and without the bounds of the law, and expected behavior. The Star shows up at your haven becaue they believe you to be a criminal, and a risk to society. They have guns because you require them to have guns, because you are bad people.

Offing another runner, or a corrupt corp officer, etc is less bad, because you are acting against someone outside the law.

The difference comes in a bodyguard - a bodyguard is particularly paid (and paid well, likely), to be someone that gets shot at and attacked. They don't go out thinking "I'm gonna protect the peace today, and make sure that things are done the way they should be." They go out thinking "Tough job today, likely a large threat - I hope I get the buggers first."

A cop is reasonable in not expecting to get shot. A bodyguard is not (in shadowrun).

I also don't advocate shooting security guards - they just folks doing a job.

As for black ops (kill 'em all, no witnesses) - while the runners can claim that "we had to ice them all, so they couldn't ID us!" they are culpable. They knew they were going in to a situation where they would be commiting illegal acts, and didn't take precautions to hide themselves. A moment's thought would reveal that their course of action is likely to result in people having to be killed, since they have accepted that as the method of hiding.
nezumi
This is why in any reasonable game, lorechaser would be a grease mark.

The lone star officers are there because they need to do stupid stuff so they can get paid and afford food and trid and maybe a little putang now and again. A runner does what he does so he can afford food and trid and maybe a little putang now and again. The only difference is one has obvious corporate backing.
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