Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Space Dragons
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Draconis
So dragons didn't awaken until the mana levels rose again suggesting that they need minimums of mana to operate so my question is this, what would the effect of space be on a dragon (in a ship)? We are talking manavoid here.
Oh and on a similar note, what about someone possessed or Inhabited? Can you disrupt a big nasty by shooting it's ass into space ala Aliens?
Wakshaani
Depends. If they don't try to tap into magic or go Astral, a normal Magicians's fine.

A dual-natured critter, such as a Ghoul, Dragon, or Possessed human, however, is boned. Being in space inflicts pretty hefty damage on them every turn until either they die or leave it.

Not a place that you want to be.
eidolon
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
If they don't try to tap into magic or go Astral, a normal Magicians's fine.


I just read that again in the shadowtalk of NAGRL. Has any other (non-shadowtalker) source ever confirmed it? I'm assuming they codify it in Target: Wastelands, but it has been a while since I read that one, and I'm re-reading everything in published order so it will be a while before I'm there again. smile.gif
ChicagosFinest
Well how did dragon bones end up on Mars? Yeah still waiting for an explination on that one!
Eben McKay
QUOTE (ChicagosFineset)
Well how did dragon bones end up on Mars? Yeah still waiting for an explination on that one!

Inertia, duh! grinbig.gif The dragon tried to fly there, died as he left the atmosphere, and floated the rest of the way.

Yeah, I got nothing.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (ChicagosFineset)
Well how did dragon bones end up on Mars? Yeah still waiting for an explination on that one!

I've started a timer...
Wakshaani
From Street Magic, you reduce a magicians Magic Attribute by the level of the Mana Void (Deep Space is -12, rendering even Great Dragons powerless) and if they Astrally Project, Astrally Perceive, or are Dual Natured, they take damage of teh void, physical (So, Deep Space would be 12P damage) resisted by body (dual natured) (Or Willpower is you're projecting/sensing) dealt every turn of exposure.

It ain't a fun ride.

In populated areas (Moon Base, for example), you might only face a void of 9 or 10, the shuttle flying you there an 11, but, space proper ain't a place to be for teh Awakened.

So, yeah, if you can get a baddie *up* there somehow, the void will pretty much take care of it. Heck, there was at least one group that got past Bottled Demon that way, by sticking the thing in as cargo and taking an Orbital ride. *pop* ... no more bottle. smile.gif
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Eben McKay)
QUOTE (ChicagosFineset @ Nov 1 2006, 10:16 AM)
Well how did dragon bones end up on Mars?  Yeah still waiting for an explination on that one!

Inertia, duh! grinbig.gif The dragon tried to fly there, died as he left the atmosphere, and floated the rest of the way.

Yeah, I got nothing.

Sadly, I'd buy that.

Not a GREAT Dragon, sure, but probably some young and stupid one decided to give it a go, passed out but had a sustaining Levitate on him (Which gave out once he ws in space proper, but, by then, inertia) ... he was probably trying to hit teh Moon, but lost so much speed that, instead, he missed it by being too slow and fell onto Mars, instead (Better than going out and being turned into a V'ger!) ...

That, or the bonephotos were just fakes, which I believe is the official answer.
lorechaser
QUOTE (eidolon)
I'm re-reading everything in published order....

Wow.

From SR1 -> SR4, or just all of SR3? Either way, scary....
Eben McKay
Well, the other possibility is that Mars was once inhabitable and had its own gaeasphere. But that would open up a much larger can o' worms.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 1 2006, 09:33 AM)
I'm re-reading everything in published order....

Wow.

From SR1 -> SR4, or just all of SR3? Either way, scary....

One of things that everyone should do, from time to time, just to marvel at how things have changed, where plot seeds went, and what was never touched on. Great Vampire Conspiracy? Program Carriers? NeoAnarchist Revolution? Teh Vol Sprawl?

Lots of cool stuff.

Sadly, there's still a few gaps in my collection. Not sure how I'll ever finish 'em all up. Universal Brotherhood's bad enough, but teh German-only publications or the old Fan Club quarterly magazines (What was the name of those again? AGES before the Shadowrun Supplimental) ... sheesh!

So, you make due as best you can.
BishopMcQ
Eben--you've touched on my main hypotheses...but I've always like my Cyberpunk to have a heavy spice of Sci-Fi.
Ophis
All I'll say is that ED stuff mentions the first dargon leaving it's "family" which were cruel and viscious creatures, and taking a long journey thru astral space, and coming to find a beautiful world to call home, not one of blood coloured dust. However the relations found a way to follow it and came thru, the first dragon sacrificed herself to protect her new home, by starting the mana levels fluctuating and thus denying it's reletives access except when the mana level peaks.

That's how i remember the Verjigorm section of Horrors... I wonder what sort of bones they could be...
Eben McKay
Another possibility: if a comet can spike mana levels and induce SURGE (shudder), then a smart dragon could always just fly in the tail of the comet or [other appropriate magically active celestial body].

We'll just assume the comet went straight from Earth to Mars.

What?

Shut up!
Jack Kain
The Mars once had life and supported its own mana flow is the obvious answer.
Mistwalker
Mars may still have a mana flow.
No mage has gone to Mars, so no easy way to tell yet.
Draconis
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Depends. If they don't try to tap into magic or go Astral, a normal Magicians's fine.

A dual-natured critter, such as a Ghoul, Dragon, or Possessed human, however, is boned. Being in space inflicts pretty hefty damage on them every turn until either they die or leave it.

Not a place that you want to be.


Hmm so I guess i'm ok because technically i'm not dual natured. Hell I can't project/perceive.

Oh it's a place you want to be when your team is offered 6.5 million nuyen to go to Mars.
biggrin.gif I knew there where catches however. No foci and I'll have to leave my spirits behind. Guess the bear spirit I have goes back in a pizza.

I'm buying the theory that mars used to have, or still does have, a mana flow. I'll have to see how Frank paints that particular picture later. I suspect that when the mana level was super high a dragon went into the planes completely like Ghostwalker and popped out on mars or vice versa.

Young and stupid dragon? Hmmm no comment.

Maybe this is our DOOM run.
Draconis
QUOTE (Ophis @ Nov 1 2006, 03:43 PM)
All I'll say is that ED stuff mentions the first dargon leaving it's "family" which were cruel and viscious creatures, and taking a long journey thru astral space, and coming to find a beautiful world to call home, not one of blood coloured dust. However the relations found a way to follow it and came thru, the first dragon sacrificed herself to protect her new home, by starting the mana levels fluctuating and thus denying it's reletives access except when the mana level peaks.

That's how i remember the Verjigorm section of Horrors... I wonder what sort of bones they could be...

Dragons are from Mars, immortal elves are from Venus?
Sorry couldn't resist.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 1 2006, 09:33 AM)
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
If they don't try to tap into magic or go Astral, a normal Magicians's fine.


I just read that again in the shadowtalk of NAGRL. Has any other (non-shadowtalker) source ever confirmed it? I'm assuming they codify it in Target: Wastelands, but it has been a while since I read that one, and I'm re-reading everything in published order so it will be a while before I'm there again. smile.gif

In Target:Wastelands, space was a manawarp caused by extreme sterility and radiation, not a void. Assuming that this is true for previous editions and Earthdawn a toxic sterility/radiation dragon would have been able to travel the warp without a problem. Having a dragon aspected towards sterility and radiation is gives us far worse problems than just a few bones on Mars, however. Sterility-aspected magicians aren't exactly the most sane of toxics.

It might have been where that horror-corrupted dragon ended up after flying into the Horror Cloud.

This, of course, is viable only if we assume that the Crash 2.0 actually caused the universe to shift left.

QUOTE (Draconis)
Dragons are from Mars, immortal elves are from Venus?
Sorry couldn't resist.


There once was an elf from Venus. His ears were shaped like a
Demonseed Elite
Also remember that great dragons, unlike most dual natured beings, have a hefty amount of Astral Armor.
ChicagosFinest
So then have any of the dragons sent space expeditions to receive the bones? if so Loffy is my prime suspect. I remeber reading something in SR about launching a trip to mars and getting there. I think it was sometime in the 50's? I could be wrong I skimmed target wastelands.
eidolon
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 1 2006, 09:28 AM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 1 2006, 09:33 AM)
I'm re-reading everything in published order....

Wow.

From SR1 -> SR4, or just all of SR3? Either way, scary....


Not scary, necessary and fantastic. biggrin.gif

edit: Almost forgot to answer. SR1 through SR3. The only thing I own for 4 is the core book, and I've only ever glanced through it.

Thanks, hyz. It's never been important in my games, so I've never used it. Which is too bad really, because I bought T:W specifically to run a space game that...never happened.

And someone mentioned holes in their collection, and UB specifically. All I can say is keep looking! I saw UB go for less than $20 not too long ago on either eBay or Amazon (can't remember). Can't remember what I spent on UB, but I do remember that the most I've spent on a SR book so far was $48 + S/H for Lone Star (and then later I must have gotten one in a lot, because I just realized the other day that I have two).

I still have a few gaps, and most of those are adventures that I've put off getting because in the past I had no plans on running them. Now, though, I want them just for the plot stuff that came from them.
Fortune
QUOTE (ChicagosFineset)
So then have any of the dragons sent space expeditions to receive the bones?

As was said earlier, the official answer about the bones (at the moment) is that they are fake.
Fortune
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
... rendering even Great Dragons powerless

Unnamed Great Dragons. wink.gif

QUOTE (Draconis)
... immortal elves are from Venus ...


I am not! nyahnyah.gif
ChicagosFinest
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (ChicagosFineset @ Nov 2 2006, 04:51 AM)
So then have any of the dragons sent space expeditions to receive the bones?

As was said earlier, the official answer about the bones (at the moment) is that they are fake.

Your comment is valid and I understand if in the game world they are seen as "fake" but thats way to weird for the "Big D" to do that to the masses.

What would be even crazyier if a dragon came from outerspace (it doesnt mater where). A cosmic dragon if you will but thats stretching it way to far. For now I'll settle wondering what a dragon would do if a real life alien landed in the 6th world. That would fuck there machavalien scemes up.

Maybe the spaceship could also take all the black people away from the earth like Farakhan once preached biggrin.gif (I hope everyone see's the sacrcasim in this last comment white people tend to not listen to crazies like him)
PBTHHHHT
With a Stargate of course! The device will let you go from one place to another in a blink of an eye and... uh... what? Quit looking at me like that! wink.gif
Mistwalker
Let me guess, this Stargate is ring shaped, just large enough for the largest GD to fly thru.
But instead of high tech making it work, it's "magic", hmmm, or magnets?
Kyoto Kid
...dragons in space..?

Please, no. We don't neeed them mucking things up out there too.
FrankTrollman
Metaplanar Shortcuts work over any distances. Even 1.5 AUs if it comes to that.

-Frank
NightmareX
IIRC there was a blurb in the original BBB speculating that dragons and other six limbed vertabrates can from off planet due to the idea that terrestrial vertabrates only went up to four limbs.
Ophis
QUOTE (Draconis)
QUOTE (Ophis @ Nov 1 2006, 03:43 PM)
All I'll say is that ED stuff mentions the first dargon leaving it's "family" which were cruel and viscious creatures, and taking a long journey thru astral space, and coming to find a beautiful world to call home, not one of blood coloured dust. However the relations found a way to follow it and came thru, the first dragon sacrificed herself to protect her new home, by starting the mana levels fluctuating and thus denying it's reletives access except when the mana level peaks.

That's how i remember the Verjigorm section of Horrors... I wonder what sort of bones they could be...

Dragons are from Mars, immortal elves are from Venus?
Sorry couldn't resist.

NO! Immortal elves are descended from Martians! They're half martians like something out of the X-Files, no humans are from Venus, the Black magic Manga has taught me this... Okay I realise that means immortal elves are from both Mars and Venus.
Draconis
QUOTE (Ophis)

NO! Immortal elves are descended from Martians! They're half martians like something out of the X-Files, no humans are from Venus, the Black magic Manga has taught me this... Okay I realise that means immortal elves are from both Mars and Venus.

I'd like to send IEs both to Mars and Venus.... in parts. I'd shoot any Otaku into the sun if I could find any left. I guess I'll just have to settle for Technomancers.
The Jopp
How would a dragon with a magic rating of 12 and a power foci that raises his actual magic rating by another 6 fare?

He should then have a magic of 6 in space right?
DragginSPADE
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Sadly, there's still a few gaps in my collection. Not sure how I'll ever finish 'em all up. Universal Brotherhood's bad enough, but teh German-only publications or the old Fan Club quarterly magazines (What was the name of those again? AGES before the Shadowrun Supplimental) ... sheesh!


Wow, I'm surprised no one answered this before now. smile.gif The magazine's name was KAGE,
(Japanese for Shadow I believe). I'm still not sure how many issues of them there were.
Wakshaani
KAGE, that's the name, yes. Friend of mine has I *think* the full run. Won't give 'em up, tho. *shakes fist*

As for teh Magic 12 Dragon with a Focus 6, teh Focus would get shut down (Destroyed?) seperately from teh Dragon's own magic, so, no, wouldn't have a Magic of 6 out there.

Pretty much, Deep Space = Boned Magi.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Wakshaani)

As for teh Magic 12 Dragon with a Focus 6, teh Focus would get shut down (Destroyed?) seperately from teh Dragon's own magic, so, no, wouldn't have a Magic of 6 out there.

Pretty much, Deep Space = Boned Magi.

Hmm...characters are limited to magic 12 (critters as well and suchlike) but what about crafted items? Would something with +18 magic rating also be destroyed?
Ophis
Umm, the 12 limit on magic thing don't exist, as long as you keep increasing your magic you can get more initiate grades and more magic... infinite loop agogo. Plus 12 appears to be great dragons NATURAL magic before initiation.
Wakshaani
Unsure. I'd always thought that Magic was capped at 9 for Metahumans and 12 for Dragons, which assumed that they'd Initiated pretty heavily (Circa 6 ranks).

Then again, when I hear that some IEs and GDs have double-digit Initiation, I think level 10-12 while I see other people talk of *80* or so, which ... man. I can't even *begin* to imagine that.

Be nice to hear an unofficial 'Suggestion' from one of teh Powers That Be, tho. Like, "Dragons are suually Initiates of grades 1-3, while becoming a Great Dragon requires them to be Initiate Grade of 7+."

Heck, the leader of the Black Lodge is, IIRC, the only human being to ever hit Initiate 10.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Ophis)
Umm, the 12 limit on magic thing don't exist, as long as you keep increasing your magic you can get more initiate grades and more magic... infinite loop agogo. Plus 12 appears to be great dragons NATURAL magic before initiation.

Oh, yea, that's right, only spells are capped at X2 magic rating, not magic rating.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (ChicagosFineset)
Well how did dragon bones end up on Mars? Yeah still waiting for an explination on that one!

It was a dragon researcher that found out how to take metaplanar shortcuts to unknown places - only it didn't consider the results of visiting mars' void.
The dragons don't want to talk about it.
Draconis
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Nov 3 2006, 09:36 AM)
Unsure. I'd always thought that Magic was capped at 9 for Metahumans and 12 for Dragons, which assumed that they'd Initiated pretty heavily (Circa 6 ranks).

Then again, when I hear that some IEs and GDs have double-digit Initiation, I think level 10-12 while I see other people talk of *80* or so, which ... man. I can't even *begin* to imagine that.

Be nice to hear an unofficial 'Suggestion' from one of teh Powers That Be, tho. Like, "Dragons are suually Initiates of grades 1-3, while becoming a Great Dragon requires them to be Initiate Grade of 7+."

Heck, the leader of the Black Lodge is, IIRC, the only human being to ever hit Initiate 10.

I'm no power that be, or not to be, (sorry shakespeare jokes seem really funny at 4am) but I can definately tell you your estimates are low. My character Scratch is the youngest of the young and he's already grade 3. I would triple the bases and it would be 9+ and 21+ respectively.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Then again, when I hear that some IEs and GDs have double-digit Initiation, I think level 10-12 while I see other people talk of *80* or so, which ... man. I can't even *begin* to imagine that.

Be nice to hear an unofficial 'Suggestion' from one of teh Powers That Be, tho. Like, "Dragons are suually Initiates of grades 1-3, while becoming a Great Dragon requires them to be Initiate Grade of 7+."

Well, if you look at the old editions the official suggestions for IEs and Named GDs has been "don't bother with stats or dice; they always get automatic critical successes unless the plot requires that they fail for some reason (such as a battle between two Named GDs)."
mfb
QUOTE (Walshaani)
Then again, when I hear that some IEs and GDs have double-digit Initiation, I think level 10-12 while I see other people talk of *80* or so, which ... man. I can't even *begin* to imagine that.

it's a question of age. over the course of a twenty-year career, it's not hard to imagine a runner mage getting grade 6 or higher initiate grade. hell, my adept is grade 5, and it's been about five in-game years since i started playing him.

now, extend that to beings that have been around for tens of thousands of years.
Eben McKay
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Walshaani)
Then again, when I hear that some IEs and GDs have double-digit Initiation, I think level 10-12 while I see other people talk of *80* or so, which ... man. I can't even *begin* to imagine that.

it's a question of age. over the course of a twenty-year career, it's not hard to imagine a runner mage getting grade 6 or higher initiate grade. hell, my adept is grade 5, and it's been about five in-game years since i started playing him.

now, extend that to beings that have been around for tens of thousands of years.

A side note:

I've noticed that the longer lived the creature, the worse they are at doing something with their time. Take for instance elves in DnD. They reach maturity at age 100 or so, become level 1 adventurers, but have no more skill points than the 18 year old human adventurer of the same class.

What were the elves (who I might add, only need to sleep for I think 2 hours a night) DOING with all that time? Absolutely nothing, it seems. Time spent living is relative to the lifespan of the creature doing the living.

Bringing this back to the talk of the over ten-thousand year old dragon: they'd be powerful, but not linearly moreso than a (meta)human based on their age.
mfb
huh? just because elves in D&D are late starters doesn't mean that all long-lived creatures in every fantasy game are.
Eben McKay
QUOTE (mfb)
huh? just because elves in D&D are late starters doesn't mean that all long-lived creatures in every fantasy game are.

Maybe not, but I'd like to think so! biggrin.gif

I see it as the ennui of immortality. Which those pesky Vampire players are always trying to roleplay. sarcastic.gif
Draconis
QUOTE (Eben McKay)
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 3 2006, 12:22 PM)
huh? just because elves in D&D are late starters doesn't mean that all long-lived creatures in every fantasy game are.

Maybe not, but I'd like to think so! biggrin.gif

I see it as the ennui of immortality. Which those pesky Vampire players are always trying to roleplay. sarcastic.gif

Ya I mean immortality is so lame. I need to get all emo about it. wobble.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Eben McKay)
Maybe not, but I'd like to think so! biggrin.gif

I see it as the ennui of immortality. Which those pesky Vampire players are always trying to roleplay. sarcastic.gif

here's my opinion on the matter, which i will defend as fact to my last breath: GDs and IDs are major players in the world, with lots and lots of powerful enemies. they can't afford ennui; they've got to be on top of their game all the time, or some other player is going to jerk the rug out from under them and maybe even kill them. the immortals who would succumb to ennui have already done so, and are either immortal bums living a life of immortal drunken poverty, or are already dead.
Eben McKay
I understand your point about the need for caution and the need to stay on top of your game when you are an immortal in a world of immortal threats.

However, it has been my experience that even the most vigilant immortals in RPGs will receive less karma/XP/character points/BPs/whathaveyou per year than any active PC would. It's a recurring trend in the games I've played that PCs improve at a drastically magnified rate compared to the world around them.

In Exalted there are rules for glossing over several hundred years of an Exalt's life and travels, and it involves awarding them experience at the rate of 5 xp/year. Roughly the amount they'd receive for a regular session. Also, as the Exalt gets older (in terms of centuries lived), this amount drops from 5 gradually down to 2/year.

Since most other games don't really deal in such scales of time, this is the one I refer to when dealing with immortals and their gains in power. Simply put, I don't believe that an immortal, no matter how hard they work, will ever match the frenetic pace of a mortal in the way they live their life.

All of this is of course IMO, except for the Exalted part, which I'm reciting from memory.
mfb
i tend to look at SR with an eye towards realism, or at least realistic projection. realistically, i don't see how an immortal could live long as long as the current crop has without access to the kind of power that mortals simply can't live long enough to achieve.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012