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Xenith
If its not Cyberpunk (which it is, since the focus on hacking is still there, a major theme of almost every cyberpunk in existence), then its Manapunk. Still Punk, still dystopian. So Gibson can fuck off. He wasn't even really the first cyberpunk writer, he just got famous for it. Goddamn whiner.
Abbandon
They missed my most wanted cyber question.

What is needed for a proper skinlink connection that allows two way communication with the cyber/device your are connected to.

gun w/ skinlink -> body -> glasses w/ skinlink(or cybereyes)
gun w/ skinlink -> body -> datajack -> glasses/cybereyes

Do i need a datajack to be able tell my gun to eject a clip? What if i have my motorcycle skinlinked, do i have to have a datajack to tell it to start ?
FrankTrollman
The specific quote by William Gibson is:

QUOTE (William Gibson)
SHADOWRUN: GAG ME WITH A SPOON

No relationship. No permission. Nothing. Nary a word exchanged, ever.

Except that the admixture of cyberspace and, spare me, *elves*, has always been more than I could bear to think about.


Uh huh. I was personally unaware that we had to give William Gibson permission to use the word "cyberspace" (which Gibson may have coined) when we actually call it "the Matrix" as envisioned in Dreams of Flesh and Sand by W. T. Quick. Also, I didn'tknow that we had to give Gibson anything for using the term Cyberpunk which was from a book of the same name by Bruce Bethke some years before Neuromancer was written.

Really, William Gibson typed on a fucking typewriter all the way through that series so he can take his high-tech prophet status and shove it up his ass.

We never said a word to Gibson and never received a word of permission from him because we don't owe him anything. You don't need Gibson's stamp of approval to make cyberpunk. In fact, I would suggest that you avoid doing so.

-Frank
Lodestar_77
I have been visiting the forums for the latest gme by Shadowrun and of course it has its SR detractors but one of them said not only was this new video game not Shadowrun (I heartily agree there) but neither was 4th edition. And two posters agreeing with him.

I have yet to buy 4th edition yet but I am wondering what it is that old Shadowrun fans are not liking about this 4th edition. Can anyone tell me?
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The specific quote by William Gibson is:

QUOTE (William Gibson)
SHADOWRUN: GAG ME WITH A SPOON

No relationship. No permission. Nothing. Nary a word exchanged, ever.

Except that the admixture of cyberspace and, spare me, *elves*, has always been more than I could bear to think about.


Uh huh. I was personally unaware that we had to give William Gibson permission to use the word "cyberspace" (which Gibson may have coined) when we actually call it "the Matrix" as envisioned in Dreams of Flesh and Sand by W. T. Quick. Also, I didn'tknow that we had to give Gibson anything for using the term Cyberpunk which was from a book of the same name by Bruce Bethke some years before Neuromancer was written.

Really, William Gibson typed on a fucking typewriter all the way through that series so he can take his high-tech prophet status and shove it up his ass.

We never said a word to Gibson and never received a word of permission from him because we don't owe him anything. You don't need Gibson's stamp of approval to make cyberpunk. In fact, I would suggest that you avoid doing so.

-Frank

I think anyone who writes genre fiction and thinks of themselves as both a pioneer and an innovator is a douche. Humility is the sign of a well read author.

I want to see Warren Ellis (who I think has a healthy view on other writers, dickish as he may be) fight William Gibson. Writing about dystopian futures is about drawing upon the culture and history of the human race as a whole. That includes other past writers, even those who stopped being relevant years ago.
Rotbart van Dainig
Let's just say that SR is very directly inspired in descriptions and setting by Neuromancer...

Today, Cyberpunk as a genre is pretty much gone and merged into scifi mainstream, so it's not a really bad thing that SR doesn't claim nor try to be CP.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Lodestar_77)
I have been visiting the forums for the latest gme by Shadowrun and of course it has its SR detractors but one of them said not only was this new video game not Shadowrun (I heartily agree there) but neither was 4th edition. And two posters agreeing with him.

I have yet to buy 4th edition yet but I am wondering what it is that old Shadowrun fans are not liking about this 4th edition. Can anyone tell me?

As someone who tried to play Shadowrun in Highschool and quickly tossed it to the wayside only to pick it up again now, I can say that they must hate how easy and sensible things are now nyahnyah.gif
Dissonance
People will always complain about something new. There'll be a fury and shitstorm for the next few months or years, but eventually, once most of the core books are out, people will settle down about the SR3 vs SR4 argument, and go back to what they were doing before SR4 came out.

That is, screaming over nuances of the current edition.

As for the Shadowrun game that's coming out for the Xbox 360 and the PC? People are complaining about that, because Shadowrun has had a pretty notoriously bad run of video games in the past. While the Genesis one was pretty true to the source material, the SNES one was pretty much as far removed from the source, while still retaining the lingo and a few very basic tenents.

The problem that most people seem to have with the Shadowrun shooter that's coming out is that, well. Aside from being a shooter instead of an RPG, the magic violates canon that's been set up from the very start of the game. No teleportation. No resurrection.

I don't know if it's going to be a good game or not. I'll certainly give it a try. And it might even serve as a gateway drug from the shooter to the paper and pencil RPG. But, really, it's kind of distanced from what we nerds consider to be wholesome and canon.
Xenith
Looks terrible. Just another Halo clone. While fun, Halo is a bit overrated at this point. Unreal did it better.
Rotbart van Dainig
That's what happens to games µ$ gets their hands on. Oni was fun...
MYST1C
QUOTE (Dissonance)
The problem that most people seem to have with the Shadowrun shooter that's coming out is that, well.  Aside from being a shooter instead of an RPG, the magic violates canon that's been set up from the very start of the game.  No teleportation.  No resurrection.

Plus, there's a new setting (never before heard of city in South America).
Plus, the game is set in 2021 but has adult elves (and likely dwarves).
Plus, trolls look different than in the RPG.
Plus, there's a new corporation, "RNA Global".
Plus, there's an Immortal Elves-run underground group called "The Lineage".
Plus, the way magic returned to the world (with powerful artifacts and buildings/citadels appearing out of thin air) doesn't fit canon.
Adam
This is an Admin post: Discussions of the Shadowrun Computer Game are not relevant to this thread. Discussions of SR4 vs SR3 or any previous edition are not relevant to this thread.

This thread has some very contentious points, so keep it on topic and polite -- personal attacks, even if you put a smiley behind them -- are not welcome.
Lodestar_77
Yes well A quick visit Here and you will see a great deal of info and objection to the new microsoft game and some of it my own.

Appologies Adam I was not at all trying to start a discussion in any way about the upcoming game. I merely relayed where I saw objections about the new 4th edition rules. On my second point of 3rd vs 4th edition I was wondering what the common complaints were. But I didnt realise that they were not allowed in this thread so sorry Adam and chummers.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
In my opinion SR 3 freatly expanded the existing rules of 2nd ed so I wondered what issues were with 4th ed. I mean has anything been dropped?


Hoah boy. There are really long discussions about this all over the place But here's a short list of the needs-to-know:
  • The basic die mechanic is different and more consistently applied throughout the game. You roll Attribute + Skill + Modifiers for just about everything, rather than Skill with or without adding dice from a dicepool derived from a couple of your attributes averaged together.
  • Your target number is always 5 and difficulty is handled by requiring more successes rather than asking players to get one success against an increasingly difficult target number. This results in a difference in what can be accomplished by a skilled individual and an unskilled individual larger, and also involves half as many GM/Player questions to determine the results of an action.
  • Bio Index is gone. Bioware costs Essence, but the new Essence calculations and costs are a lot more generous - so players can have about the same (or more) ware, but there are less ware subsystems to keep track of.
  • There are 10 types of spirits in the game, and all traditions summon 5 of them with the same rules. So a Water Elemental and a Nymph use the same game mechanics. This makes traditions more similar, but also means that the magic book and the basic book together have over twenty traditions in them instead of only five.

That's a brief overview, for more detail go to one of the many SR3 v SR4 threads. This is the first edition that amounts to more than a set of house rules on the previous edition. It's a genuinely new edition that's very different. With such a significant break from the past, it is no surprise that SR4 has more zealots and more angry detractors than SR3 or SR2 did.

Honestly, SR3 could have been called SR2.5 and SR2 could have been called SR1.5 - SR4 is not SR3.5 - not even close.

-Frank
Fortune
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Honestly, SR3 could have been called SR2.5 and SR2 could have been called SR1.5 - SR4 is not SR3.5 - not even close.

What he said!

So Frank (or Synner), who did make the call on Reaction Enhancers? Were you privy to their reasoning?
Chandon
Given the attribute cap, and given the fact that there needs to be design space for Move By Wire (or whatever) to be really good in Augmentation, it makes a lot of sense to prevent people from maxing out their reaction score at character generation.
Smed
Yeah, SR3 and SR4 are totally independent games that happen to have a similar setting.

Looking forward to trying out the stuff in the FAQ. Most of it seems like nice clarifications.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Abbandon)
They missed my most wanted cyber question.

What is needed for a proper skinlink connection that allows two way communication with the cyber/device your are connected to.

gun w/ skinlink -> body -> glasses w/ skinlink(or cybereyes)
gun w/ skinlink -> body -> datajack -> glasses/cybereyes

Do i need a datajack to be able tell my gun to eject a clip? What if i have my motorcycle skinlinked, do i have to have a datajack to tell it to start ?

Skinlinks are like wires. They do what a wire does. It just uses your skin. Turns your skin into wire!

To tell a skinlinked gun to eject the clip, you need something to take whatever you are thinking and have that communicate through the wire|Skinlink to the device. So to give mental commands you need something with DNI, whether through Trodes, datajack or some other implanted device.
Konsaki
Now that the devs have made AR more favorable than VR, what can be done to make VR the better option again?
Also, did the devs even think about how their choice would impact the game world?
knasser
QUOTE (Lantzer @ Dec 7 2006, 05:39 PM)
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (knasser @ Dec 7 2006, 10:20 AM)
A GM can limit cash-developing characters like samurai if he wishes, but can barely slow down the karma developers, like mages, making imbalances appear rapidly in low-power games.

Are you saying the GM has control over how much money he gives out but not karma?

I think his point is that Money comes, and Money goes, but Karma keeps building. Karma is sneaky that way.

And he's right. A lot of GM's keep a closer grip on the cash flow than the karma flow. I'm guilty of it myself, and I love cyber.

Part of the problem is that to upgrade Cyber is very expensive, traditionally. Upgrading your basic cyber to alpha ware, or your alphaware to betaware, or god forbid bioware, just so you can squeeze in a fraction more capability, requires enough cash outlay to fully kit out several other members of your team with top of the line non-cyber gear of all types.

I've been playing around with the system, and looking at characters people have posted:

Who are you more likely to see at character generation with bioware initiative boosts (Adept or Sam)? Answer: Adept, as far as I can tell.

The Sam is more likely to go with wired for financial reasons in character generation - he wants more than 1 piece of cyber, if he considers himself a street samurai. The adept on the other hand has much fewer finanial obligations and the bioware is a signiicant power point discount over his own way of handling initiative boosts.

Now, how likely is it for the Sam to get that nice bioware upgrade to the tune of a quarter-million-plus nuyen in game? This is the worst case scenario... but this is what the samurai's equivalent of initiation is. Magical types continuously build up with karma, and eventually initiate - usually as soon as possible. Cyber types have a harder time upgrading.

Because if the team has gotten enough money that the cyber-folks can upgrade at all, what have the other members of the team done with that huge amount of money? We are talking about tens to hundreds of thousands of bucks here.

Anyway, enough ranting. to answer your question:

In theory, no. In practice, yes. For it to work in practice, he'd have to cut back karma awards severely over the long term, or increase cash awards past what might seem reasonable based on the finances of the other characters.

Possible the best idea is to implement a cash <-> karma system, with oversight, of course.


Well Lantzer has put it all very much better than I would have. I was just going to reply 'yes' smile.gif
Thanee
So, what are Reaction Enhancers supposed to be compatible with then? wink.gif

QUOTE
Reaction enhancers are compatible with other Initiative-boosters.


Bye
Thanee
Xenith
VR is more anonymous for one thing, plus you move faster (unless you crack your hacker out with int enchancers and then shame on you! XD ) in VR and in Hot SIM you do things better... enough to make an obvious difference.

AR is by no means universally more desirable than VR.... the hackers I have in my campaigns do it all the time (almost every time they want to hack). It all depends on your needs, whatever they might be.
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
We never said a word to Gibson and never received a word of permission from him because we don't owe him anything. You don't need Gibson's stamp of approval to make cyberpunk. In fact, I would suggest that you avoid doing so.

i definitely agree. however, it's also true that SR took more than just inspiration from Neuromancer.
Xenith
Who seems to have done the same to a number of other earlier cyberpunk writers. Its funny how similar some personalities and plot lines can be don't you think?

My point is that its a GENRE. OF course there will be huge similarities. And Gibson does not have a patent monopoly on cyberpunk.
mfb
you'll have to explain what you're referring to. i'm not aware of any source Gibson ripped off to anywhere near the same degree that SR originally did him.
Fortune
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Now that the devs have made AR more favorable than VR, what can be done to make VR the better option again?

As I said in another thread, maybe some kind of automatic +1 IP when using VR. Someone else (sorry ... lazy!) suggested a Commlink or small Cyber doodad that would facilitate that kind of bonus.
Xenith
I'm referencing every book and movie that have a "similar" plot line because of genre, ever (Johnny Mnemonic anyone?). Its an evolution of ideas. SR has tech, ideas, and plot lines Gibson never had and never will. (Assuming he isn't a hypocrite of course. Meh. it happens. )

And something will come along and rip off SR. Wah. If its good, its good and theres no use crying about it.
mfb
well, yes, obviously there are no new stories. but with SR and Neuromancer, the borrowing is much more extreme and much less disguised. street samurai and hand razors, for instance, are lifted directly from the book. the Matrix is obviously taken directly from the book. the domination of Japanese megacorps, the gangs--they didn't just take the general ideas, they took the details. if SR had been written today, FASA would be sued for copyright infringement.

i'm not crying about it, or anything. just saying Gibson does have a fairly defensible reason for being miffed.
Xenith
Which he expressed with an asinine post that basically said; "MY cyberpunk is better and more pure than yours. And you stole from me to feel better about your lack of cyberpunk-ness... "

Pft. Sorry. Not feeling the piety there.

He would have have an argument once. He has almost none now, especially after that.

Personally, I'd be flattered if my fiction set a standard for a genre. I'd care less who borrowed off of my writing after that. He could have similarly acknowledged those references gracefully as the acknowledgment of his fiction and its place in the roots of the genre. But no. He made a very different decision, and I think all the lesser of him for it.

Konsaki
This is drifting off topic here, keep it on the FAQ...
ThreeGee
QUOTE
well, yes, obviously there are no new stories. but with SR and Neuromancer, the borrowing is much more extreme and much less disguised. street samurai and hand razors, for instance, are lifted directly from the book


And the games obsession with voudoun.

But so what, back when SR first appeared Gibsons ideas were everywhere, almost public domain, everybody was using them. He never objected to the media profile that gave him back in the late 80's.
IvanTank
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 7 2006, 11:10 AM)
@Serbitar: My copy of SR4 says drones use Pilot+Maneuver autosoft for driving tests. Thats quite explicit in the wireless section. The fact that riggers use driving skill+response does not change that.

Inconsistency. Why should a drone use Pilot, when a rigger uses the Response of the drone?
Thats like saying: A rigger jumped into a drone uses the drones Sensor, but the drone itself does note use its own Sensor, but Pilot.

This would be inconsistent and anti streamlined.

You use driving skill + the response of your commlink, not of the drone.
Konsaki
For continued discussion on William Gibson and the effects he may or may not have had on Shadowrun, click here.
This way, this thread doesnt get locked due to derailment. Thank you.
Fortune
Yeah! Stop messin' up my purty FAQ thread! nyahnyah.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (IvanTank)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 7 2006, 11:34 AM)
QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 7 2006, 11:10 AM)
@Serbitar: My copy of SR4 says drones use Pilot+Maneuver autosoft for driving tests. Thats quite explicit in the wireless section. The fact that riggers use driving skill+response does not change that.

Inconsistency. Why should a drone use Pilot, when a rigger uses the Response of the drone?
Thats like saying: A rigger jumped into a drone uses the drones Sensor, but the drone itself does note use its own Sensor, but Pilot.

This would be inconsistent and anti streamlined.

You use driving skill + the response of your commlink, not of the drone.

Of course.
But the drone uses the drones response . . .
ElFenrir
Hmm, about that reaction thing im disliking...

I guess its for a few reasons...one, i do sorta have a soft spot for the sammies and their big chrome slowdown in gameplay. Karma goes to boosting stats and skills, good, but their chrome gets an upgrade once in a blue moon. (To be noted, many sammies i know end up putting their Karma to Edge for necessity, their other skills and attributes kind of hanging in limbo. With the cost of Attributes 3x new rating, those tend not to be nailed as much in my experience...)

Im actually not bashing magic characters here, btw. I enjoy spell-slingers, too. But to see the amounts of power they can achieve for a 15 BP start-game investment makes me sorta want to stick up for the cyber-freaks out there. 15 BP and a few handfuls of BP for magical skills and spells. With enough BP left to take a couple of combat skills at good ratings. and/or stealth. Ive seen some sick out of the box mages that only get better with every karma.


Now, i suppose, after the red rage left my eyes ( grinbig.gif ) about the rule, there IS a bit of significance(doesnt mean i like it or have to use it, but i can see a small point.)

You can stack them with Synaptic Boosters but not Wired Reflexes. Boosters 3 plus Enhancers 3 equal Wired Reflexes 3 for well over half the essence cost.

Wired Reflex 3 plus Enhancers 3 equals not much more cyberware, a +6 total to reaction...but remember, human max is 9.

The only reason i figured this rule went in was to prevent the 'reaction dump'. I guess my reasoning is 'if someone wants to dump their stat and buy it up, it's their insane nuyen expenditure and essence their spending.'

I dont think it broke the game before and even tho SR4 is a vastly different system, i dont see how it will break it now. Ive stacked them before the FAQ and Seattle 2070 didnt implode, so i guess i can keep it houseruled like this. Everyones games are different tho and i can respect that...perhaps others have ran into trouble here that i havn't. (At least when gamers and GMs can talk to one another we can warn each other, ''watch out for this, use at own risk!'' and the like. smile.gif)
Fortune
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Dec 8 2006, 11:43 AM)
You can stack them with Synaptic Boosters but not Wired Reflexes. Boosters 3 plus Enhancers 3 equal Wired Reflexes 3 for well over half the essence cost.

No, it equals Wired 3 + an extra +3 to Reaction. Synaptic Boosters already mirror Wired in bonuses.

Even worse, Reaction Enhancers can still be stacked with the Increase Initiative Spell ... just not Wired Reflexes. ohplease.gif
IvanTank
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Boosters 3 plus Enhancers 3 equal Wired Reflexes 3 for well over half the essence cost.

I'm not sure what your logic is. Synaptic Boosters also increase Reaction. They are only different from Wired Reflexes in that they cost a lot more but have a much reduced essence cost.

Synaptic Boosters are essentially omega-ware Wired Reflexes smile.gif

Plu, I think they just forgot to say that Reaction Enhancers are not compatible with Synaptic Boosters as well, just like they forgot to change the flechette ammo listings for weapons in the errata
Konsaki
There is the option, if your GM would allow it, to change your Karma into a Nuyen value and trade it for a piece of gear.
Lets say you really want that Synaptic Booster 3 for your char, but have no way in hell of getting it through black means. Well, the base cost for Basic grade Synaptic Booster 3 is 240,000. So, if you changed that into a BP value, you would need 48BP, which is a huge amount. Just make 1:1 converson of Karma to BP. For some reason, if you had saved up 48Karma and spend it all on getting that piece of gear, you would somehow get it.
Lets say your character heard of an experimental procedure being done for free from somewhere in the shadows, the only stipulation is the lab/clinic/whatever wanted a non-tracable source that had no way of trying to get compensation if things went wrong. The procedure is a success though, due to you paying karma, and you now have the effect of Basic Synaptic Boosters 3, complete with 1.5e loss.
ElFenrir
whoops...hehe, thanks. once again i was thinking of the old time 'synaptic accelerator'....which did not increase your reaction. wobble.gif


My bad. im not thinking in total SR4-land yet....


Ok, so....if they ARE compatible with Boosters...and NOT with reflexes.....errrh.....now THAT is powerful. You'd think they would use it the other way around...


again.... wobble.gif


QUOTE
There is the option, if your GM would allow it, to change your Karma into a Nuyen value and trade it for a piece of gear.
Lets say you really want that Synaptic Booster 3 for your char, but have no way in hell of getting it through black means. Well, the base cost for Basic grade Synaptic Booster 3 is 240,000. So, if you changed that into a BP value, you would need 48BP, which is a huge amount. Just make 1:1 converson of Karma to BP. For some reason, if you had saved up 48Karma and spend it all on getting that piece of gear, you would somehow get it.
Lets say your character heard of an experimental procedure being done for free from somewhere in the shadows, the only stipulation is the lab/clinic/whatever wanted a non-tracable source that had no way of trying to get compensation if things went wrong. The procedure is a success though, due to you paying karma, and you now have the effect of Basic Synaptic Boosters 3, complete with 1.5e loss.


Hmmm........interesting.....ill have to mull this one over...it would certainly help the cybers out there....
IvanTank
QUOTE (Konsaki)
There is the option, if your GM would allow it, to change your Karma into a Nuyen value and trade it for a piece of gear.
Lets say you really want that Synaptic Booster 3 for your char, but have no way in hell of getting it through black means. Well, the base cost for Basic grade Synaptic Booster 3 is 240,000. So, if you changed that into a BP value, you would need 48BP, which is a huge amount. Just make 1:1 converson of Karma to BP. For some reason, if you had saved up 48Karma and spend it all on getting that piece of gear, you would somehow get it.
Lets say your character heard of an experimental procedure being done for free from somewhere in the shadows, the only stipulation is the lab/clinic/whatever wanted a non-tracable source that had no way of trying to get compensation if things went wrong. The procedure is a success though, due to you paying karma, and you now have the effect of Basic Synaptic Boosters 3, complete with 1.5e loss.

IMHO, Karma and BP are nowhere near a 1:1 conversion rate.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (yesman)
QUOTE
In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.


does that mean the hacker rolls Skill + Attribute-1 in those instances?

You really have to read the whole passage not just the line that makes you feel good. None of the examples below include say if you don't have stealth you default to logic -1.
Fortune
So, what exactly do you default to if you don't have the proper Program?
Jaid
QUOTE (Fortune)
So, what exactly do you default to if you don't have the proper Program?

presumably hacking or computer, i suppose. certainly not logic though. logic was never in the test in the first place.
jervinator
Something I am still not getting.

QUOTE
If a character did replace all of his limbs, then yes, his Physical attributes would be 3 (assuming the cyberlimbs are not augmented), since you use the average of the limbs' attributes


Yeah, I wanna waste the BP I spent to play a Troll and reduce my attributes to 3. Given the space certain enhancements take up, cyberlimbs are barely worth it in many cases. At least M&M had different cyberlimb stats for metahumans so they don't get boned w/o lubricant.
Of course, I could buy attributes at 1, cyber up, get mad skillz, and wind up ahead of the game with some extra boxes on my Physical track to boot...

It makes sense since you ARE replacing meat, but it also highlights how much SR4 cyberlimbs suck. Why do they suck?
Fortune
QUOTE (Jaid)
... logic was never in the test in the first place.

I never implied that it was. smile.gif

But Logic really should have a place in the (original) equation, because this is just fugly!
Fortune
QUOTE (jervinator)
It makes sense since you ARE replacing meat, but it also highlights how much SR4 cyberlimbs suck. Why do they suck?

Because Augmentation hasn't been released yet. wink.gif
ElFenrir
They should bring back the old rule of a characters cyberlimb base Strength attribute is equal to the Racial average, plus one. (Racial Average was 3+ Racial Modifiers.)

Human and Elves limbs had a base Strength of 4(3+1), Orks and Dwarves had a 6, and Trolls an 8.

I would say this for Body as well, since they are made of metal and are tougher than squishy meat and fragile bone.

Quickness was at the races base average rating. Nowadays, i guess Reaction and Agility would be at base Racial rating...giving Elves a nifty 4 base Agility limb. All else would have 3. Fair enough, with the amounts of importance tied to these attributes...but they would be boostable like anything else.

Torsos, i think should have a base body of Average +2...they are huge freaking hunks of metal replacing yourself. Damn right its going to be hard, tough, and protective. Though i'd at least settle for Average +1.

I guess you should be able to trick out a limb well, money pending...but perhaps you might want to limit it to, say, 3+ Natural Racial Maximum.

That way humans could trick their limbs up to 12(it should cost more each point over say 7-9, then more each point for 10,11,12). It will cost them, monatary wise, essence wise, and body wise, but as it stands people with augmented squishy parts do better than people with augmented titanium and steel parts.

Say if a torso isn't used, a character can still trick their limbs past a limit, but anything past, say, 3 boosts will cost Essence. If a torso is used, no Essence is lost. (So a human could trick a limb to 7 with no problem, but 8, 9, etc, will cost Essence with no Torso.)

Im just tossing out ideas. I'd have to actually sit down with the book, a pencil and some paper to see it written down and see reasonable, balanced costs, etc, and see how it looks.

Then again, perhaps with Augmentations, our prayers will be answered, viable cyberlimbs will come into play and we won't have to houserule anything. biggrin.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (jervinator @ Dec 8 2006, 01:26 PM)
It makes sense since you ARE replacing meat, but it also highlights how much SR4 cyberlimbs suck. Why do they suck?

Because Augmentation hasn't been released yet. wink.gif

And also because not everything is a metagamed power choice. If all you care about is numbers then yeah, cyberlimbs are a bad choice.
jervinator
I hope so. It's enough to almost make me break down and at least pretend to follow a religion just so I can pray that that will happen.
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