Damnit, almost had me shit myself laughing hard, along with the rest of your witty recap.

I don't play mages. I play riggers or hackers (which btw is why I'm interested in SR4 at all--they are much cooler now).

I would never play a character like this unless the GM said "You guys get 1 year off what do your characters do?"

But it begs the question...why include rules for such things in the first place? Why isn't making your own foci just an Extended Enchanting + Magic (Force x2 or 3, 1 month) test like every single other B&R test I've seen in the game (including Spell Design). There's no reason to include rules exploits like that instead of three pages of more flavour.

Making your own programs takes up like a quarter page and 1 box.

I interepreted the rules to mean that at 3 successes you get 1 unit and everyone after that you get another. Even with that way of tracking hits a comfortable medium or high lifestyle is possible.

Apart from being SINless, criminal SIN, addicted to something, or a genuine neo-anarchist I don't see the point of a mage working the shadows apart from thrill seeking or ghetto mentality. Also, at some point in SR3 and SR4 the whole we are neo-anarchists fighting against the corporate machine got lost and now shadowrunners are basically terrorism/espionage mercenaries. That's where a lot of the Cyberpunk feel has been lost. Somehow it went from fighting for something bigger than yourself to getting paid because you don't or can't get work elsewhere that pays as good.

You are incorrect in this statement. It offends me.

That's what fixers are for!

You could always advertise on a highway billboard. Free spirits might see that. I doubt they check Craig's List; you never know.

Here are some cannon references:

I can accept either of these things changes to the body, changes to the neural pathways. That's ok I don't actualy care why because we must have established LIMITATIONS on cyberware the essence mechanic works great to do that. What i would have apprieciated in the develpement of either of these hinted at theories is some advancement on par with initiation. I would also like some mechanic, even unsupported by shadowtalk, about what happens when you have cyber removed. Even If the answer is "nothing you can never regain essence, you can never install anything else in your metagame essence hole" I'll take it because at least it's an answer that I didn't have to make up wondering if I'm violating the setting. Which brings me to

NightmareX

Dude I could spring some wicked house rules. They pop into my head every time I read something I don't like. I want to do it everytime a player makes a NightOne (Puke!) who travels around the city as an eagle because he has the criterform spell. (that's not "unrealistic" in our "magiky" setting but the character never thinks about the logistics and it's hard to GM). You know when I really think hard about house rules? When I get that Bi-anual itch to port Marvel's Incredible Hulk into shadowrun. I'm not kidding, I'm a big fan, I even liked the movie. I'd design a pen and paper RPG game around the Hulk which is about what I'd be doing if I HRed shadowrun enough to alow the Hulk in the game. My point is that I wanna house rule all the time but I can't because I'm a munchy twink with little discression and too wild an imagination. The reality about house rules is that they ussually happen when the GM doesn't like the implications of RAW on his setting. I like to keep true to the setting. I came to play shadowrun not some house ruled analog.

Toturi

True, part of the point of a RPG is provideing a rules framework to arbitrate actions that a player would not or could not do in RL. That's why the're fun. My point was that when those actions are say, shooting a gun, rideing a bike, the immagination is naturaly bound by experience and common knowledge. This is proven by your own reference to gravity and subatomic particles. I'd give you points if you had sugested that gravity works because the soul of all heavenly bodies desires to be united and thus uses telekinesis to attract everything. Or something more whimsical. It appears to me that you are evedently aware of the reality of sub atomic particles and it intruded on your imagination of the macarena.

and to knasser's summary above that was good. I'm feeling fine now BTW

As I said I'm doing a more proper read through...see my post re: vessels

you mean, something like deltaware?

incidentally, certain things did go down in essence cost, did they not? iirc, datajack used to be 0.2 essence, for example. cybereyes and ears used to be 0.5 also, i think (not 100% sure), and there's probably some others i didn't look at...

How'd you come by just Logic? And, don't take this the wrong way, but are you just posting your house-rule/opinion; or do you have a track on what's official?

I'm a great admirer of Ang Lee's work, but I wouldn't want to put the Hulk in my game. Still, if you do there's no real need for house rules. So long as you don't mind alternate backgrounds for the same essential character, check out SM's rules for Possession. Also check out SM's rules for Free Spirits. Also Spirit Pact to keep it specific to one character.

Voilá - ordinary metahuman with occasional bouts of super physical ability and (if it were a plant spirit) - optional powers of regeneration and greeness.

Any use?

It's pretty clear.

No I mean the cyber equivelant of magical initiation which has no nuyen cost. (that was me being sarcastic)

Deltaware is cool. Or it would be if they'd make delta clinics as easy to find and open to the public as initiatory groups. Delta ware halves the essence cost for TEN TIMES the nuyen cost. That keeps it ballanced internaly with cyberware but I still cant initiate to buy more essence points the way an adept can buy more magic points. Even If I could buy more essence I'd still be paying millions of ¥¥ to get any benefiet.

Don't try to tell me that a data jack is cheeper when I now have to pay essence for bioware.

Dude! you're just baiting me. I'm kinda laughing but really to suggest that you can make an SR Hulk with magic after I've been whineing about magic being unrestricted is just cruel.

Seriously that was just mean. Are you trying to make me get my self banned?

I would like everyone to note that I was a model of self control in responding to t knasser

NOW WHERE ARE MY PILLS? DAMNIT!

Are you asking for the defaulting rules to be different? Why?
Are you stating that there are different defaulting rules?
Are you unhappy with the defaulting rules? Why?
What's wrong with the current defaulting rule?

Except that Logic is not in any way the linked Attribute in this case. There is no linked Attribute at all.

source? if they've clarified it to work that way in SR4, okay, but there was certainly nothing in SR3 like that. and when i brought it up to the Street Magic guys, the impression i got was that they didn't view it as enough of a problem to fix. which i basically agree with, to be honest--at least, there are lots of other things in both SR3 and SR4 that i'd want to see fixed first.

That's a disengenuous argument when Bioware/Cyberware mixing results in the less cost being halved and it is no longer impossible to use First Aid on characters with a big chunk of bioware.

In answer to your question about Essence Holes: No you don't get Essence back. Ever. But your Essence only goes down if the current cost exceeds your lost Essence, so cyberware can be replaced with new cyberware of the same or lower Essence cost and you won't lose any more. That'll be more explicit in Augmentation.

Do you consider it to be infinity times the Karma cost or zero times the Karma cost?

-Frank

I think the current defaulting rules work great for everything but matrix actions because of the switch to Skill+Program.
No, there arnt different defaulting rules, they just dont work because of the change above.
I'm not unhappy with the defaulting rules, I'm unhappy with the way the matrix dice pools are ruled, which make defaulting insane. Going from Hacking 1 + Exploit 0 for a dicepool of 1 to a logic 6(9) -1, for a dicepool of 8 just doesnt make sense.
Blah, blah, blah, how many times can you rewrite the same question?

This said, I think they should have gone with a Attribute+Skill dicepool with hits limited by Program, just like they did with the magic system. It would have meshed alot better with the overall system.
And let me reiterate - There is nothing wrong with the defaulting system when used outside of the current matrix rules, the matrix rules dont work with them though.

My Bad! I thought Computer and Hacking were linked to Logic.

Yeah, when the dicepool doesnt call for a program instead...
See LOGIC anywhere in the standard HACKING + EXPLOIT dicepool?

They are ... sort of. Logic is not actually involved in the test however, as it is listed as Skill + Program (no Attribute involved). That makes it difficult to determine the default default () for a Hacking test with no Program available.

You can always option for the grittier gameplay rules (p69) when defaulting. These limit you to 1 hit, and glitch on 1s and 2s.

BTW: It was four different questions. I take it that your complaint is that a PC with Logic 9 is more logical than a computer, and doesn't need no stinkin' programs. What's wrong with that?

You are now the smartest person on earth, DBA. Play Counter Strike from the window's dos prompt.
Yeah, thats a snarky response, but thats what you expect a logic 9 person to do without the proper interface. Even if the Logic+Hacking was limited by Expoit program, you are still factoring in the program and it's quality.
I still want all the factors that are in the matrix rules, just want them to work in a more logical pattern that flows with the rest of the game... What they did was take baseball and then added a rule where you had to walk on your hands from second base to third...

I don't know. But it moved me up to #3 Don't worry. You are still #1.

not really that clear, no.

Normal skill pools are Linked Attribute + Skill. Hacking Pools are Program + Skill.

Normally defaulting is what happens when the Skill part of the equation isn't there. However, when hacking without software, the Skill part of the equation is there.

In Hacking pools, the Program takes the place of the Linking Attribute; and the normal defaulting rules don't handle situations with Skills and no Attributes (for seemingly obvious reasons).

It seems to me that there are only two ways to handle this more or less predicated by existing rules. Using whatever half of the Hacking pool you *do have* as the default pool; or using the Attribute+Skill pool for directly interfacing when you default.

If you can make a case for using Logic, I would love to hear it.

Or better yet, if one of the Devs chances by and clears up what a default is for Hacking tests, I would really really love to hear it.

I am playing a TM now, have played TMs before, and created a TM for your game. I am not arguing for rule consistency. I am explaining how I play TMs; how I hope GMs referee TMs.

This is especially important to me because I play TMs on Dumpshock. I make jokes to keep the debates from escalating to the Carpe Ingram stage. I don't make jokes about the rules themselves.

BTW: I envy your TMs logic 9; the best I ever got was 5. Probably because I spent 50 build points on complex forms instead.

I'm soooo sorry. The idea occurred to me and I just couldn't resist.

So I didn't.

Watch out for those pills - SR4 addiction rules are nasty!

How is attribute+skill more of a penalty than attribute-1? Sounds like you really want skill or skill-1

Logic IS the attribute in your equation, isn't it?

At first I was going to suggest that the matrix rules just substitute program for attribute. Konsaki brought up the case where attribute is better. I was also going to suggest that defaulting should occur at meat body speeds instead of matrix speeds. Then I realized that some would point out their hacker with wired 3 is faster than the commlink.

I was talking about a theoretical Hacker with the Logic boosting Bioware... To get a TM that high would seriously damage it's Resonance stat, which would be illogical

OK

To address your first question, what does which roll is more of a penalty have to do with anything? The point isn't to find out how to get the most or least dice, it's to find out what the Devs meant by defaulting. Short of mind reading, or a Dev speaking up, we can only do that by trying to find a way to handle defaulting that's as consistent with the game's current design as possible.

And your second, what are you talking about?

I'm no hacker in the Hollywood sense. I have been a professional programmer. This isn't going to resolve the defaulting issue, it's a tangent; but I'm not overly impressed with the way hacking in SR4 is independent of attributes.

Aside from making mental attributes less important to the hacker from a game balance point of view, the clear message it is sending is that a hacker is not a good hacker because they're smart, but because they have access to the good toys. Essentially the SR4 hacker is a script kiddie. I.e. not one who really understands things and solves things himself, but someone who just picks up tools written by others and runs them.

And it makes me sad to think that the electronic espionage elite of 2070 are merely downloading Virus Suite 23.4 from their local e-tailer. I can just see that sodding paper clip popping up and asking "Hi there, it looks like you're trying to hack Renraku. Would you like to try a trojan or scan for open ports?"

Hackers today (in the Hollywood sense), do use a variety of tools and scripts to do their work. But I think the heroic SR hacker should be using his or her natural ability somewhat. And I don't really feel that the skill component covers this. I think attributes need to be reintroduced into hacking in SR4.

1. Konsaki was complaining that a hacker with logic 9 is better off defaulting to logic - 1 than rolling hacking 5 + exploit 1. He feels that defaulting should be a penalty, not a benefit. Knasser and I disagree. (Compare a program to a Microsoft Wizard. They make things easier for most people. Some people can do even better without them.)

2. You posted an equation: attribute+skill. Logic is the linked attribute for computer and hacking. That's what I am talking about.

I don't care about internally consistent rules. I'm happy with playable rules.

My hero!

Defaulting by definition should be a penalty! You lack the required something and have to fall back on something that is of less quality. A Hacker should NEVER have to default, because to default would mean he lacks the hacking skills and is no hacker!
Show me a character who was rolled up a to be a hacker with no skills from the Electronic and Hacking groups. (And I'm not talking about Technomancers right now, leave them out of this) They have a 0 in all required skills, but they have a 9 in Logic, oh no, they are now more powerfull than any standard hacker could ever be, just because they defaulted to a bigger dicepool... that makes as much sense as 'Chewbacca being from planet Kashyyyk, but lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!'

Because attribute (Logic) isn't present in the skill+program equation, it creates the scenario where Vulcan hackers might default by choice rather than by necessity; ie. any time attribute-1 > skill+program (A Vulcan hacker is an elf with logic 9. Tuvak and Spock would be Vulcan hacker adepts with analytics and multitasking).

An example would be Don Lancaster. He claimed he could do more with a text editor than with Adobe Illustrator. He could create effects in Postscripts that weren't available in Illustrator.

I have little problem with this. Most of the dumpshock community seems to be divided into two camps: those that feel attribute should always come into play, and those that feel attribute should never come into play.

Ha! Microsoft products make it very easy to do what they think you want to do.

I'm not sure I do take your part in this, actually. You have come up with a very good justification for why the rules are as they are. That is to say, some people are so smart that they will forgo the "Microsoft Wizard" approach and just do it themselves. Which equates to defaulting in this instance. But for aesthetic reasons, I think I would like a hacker to be doing this sort of thing more often whereas unless the hacker is very smart in deed, he is always going to be second fiddle to Clippy. I just feel that the hackers in SR4 should be more than just script kiddies who use other people's programs. If that's all they are, then anyone and everyone is a hacker if they have enough money.

The systems as it stands does make a sense and does have a plausability to it based on real world computer cracking. And as I said, I love your fluff justification of the RAW. But in the other thread that's just sprung up, a system has been proposed that combines skill, attribute and program and I think that if you have a system that reflects all of the components of being a good hacker, rather than just two of them, then that is superior.

I'm not totally swayed either way right now, but these are my thoughts.

this is just priceless

i seriously laughed for like a minute when i read that

anyways, yeah... the script kiddies thing is just kinda lame... i much prefer the attribute + skill, hits limited by program method.

We aren't talking about lack of Skill, we are talking about lack of Program. I don't think anybody has suggested using Logic-1 as a substitue for the Skill in Hacking Pools.

That's brings up an interesting point. What to do if you have the Program, but not the Skill?

Also as an aside, it's a connotation of Default, not the definition, that equates defaulting with lesser quality. Default typically just means only alternative, or assumed alternative.

if the default is the better choice, then it's not really the alternative, it's the preferred choice.

[edit] default can also mean neither of those... for example, the default could be defined as what happens if you make no effort to change it. [/edit]