I recently started a SR4 campaign, and am slowly learning how to effectively run this game (so it's fun for everyone involved). However, one of the major fun detractors is that one of the characters is a drone rigger who has four combat drones. Since his drones get 3 initiative passes, a large part of the combat turn is spent rolling attacks for these drones, and combat is very slow. Also, his drones, of course, have Very Large Guns mounted on them (Ingram White Knights, to be specific). The lackeys I've been throwing at them can't stand up to that (and some of the harder foes can't either). This makes combat even less fun for everybody else, since they shoot at a couple guys, they miss, and then the guys are dead (or at least mortally wounded and pulling themselves into cover) due to these drones.
So, my question is this: Should I limit his drone usage out of game? Or should I continue to attempt to take out his drones in-game? Do you guys have any tactics against flying drones with large guns that might be useful?
Full Version: Kerris
Jammers. cheap and easy.
Stick and Shock Ammo, cheap and easy.
Counter Rigger hack or spoof the drones and have the drones shoot at the team.
After that we get into what usually happens when heavy weaponry is used frequently, someone sends bigger, better, badder, entirely legal drones looking for the illegal ones.
Stick and Shock Ammo, cheap and easy.
Counter Rigger hack or spoof the drones and have the drones shoot at the team.
After that we get into what usually happens when heavy weaponry is used frequently, someone sends bigger, better, badder, entirely legal drones looking for the illegal ones.
Lone Star showing up a lot more often with even bigger guns?
Someone regularly using LMGs in downtown areas is going to get noticed, even in Seattle of the 2060s.
While they're nice weapons and sometimes nothing else will do, LMGs aren't exactly "shadowy".
-karma
Someone regularly using LMGs in downtown areas is going to get noticed, even in Seattle of the 2060s.
While they're nice weapons and sometimes nothing else will do, LMGs aren't exactly "shadowy".
-karma
You might get more specific answers in the SR4 forum. That said:
IMO, as you get into your stride, you'll probably discover that nerfing isn't necessary. Combat Riggers will munch just about anything in straight-up combat, but drone mobility is, for the more combat-effective chassis and models, highly limited—things like doors, hallways, stairwells, etc. all pose problems.
So my answer would be, "stop having all of your fights occur in wide open terrain".
Also, please use a thread title meaningful to the topic. Your username automatically appears next to the title, we don't it again on that line
~J
IMO, as you get into your stride, you'll probably discover that nerfing isn't necessary. Combat Riggers will munch just about anything in straight-up combat, but drone mobility is, for the more combat-effective chassis and models, highly limited—things like doors, hallways, stairwells, etc. all pose problems.
So my answer would be, "stop having all of your fights occur in wide open terrain".
Also, please use a thread title meaningful to the topic. Your username automatically appears next to the title, we don't it again on that line
~J
Terrain is one of the fastest ways to level the playing field. I concur. I know that when I first started GMing, even when the terrain was described by me as inside a building, narrow alleyways, etc, when combat got rolling, my descriptions would get quickly forgotten by both me and my players, because it just took a back seat to trying to keep everything running smoothly. Thus, even in buildings, my fights would be "out in the open". Over time, it gets easier to incorporate, and can definitely provide some good opportunities for new tactics and different combats.
I actually considered the "have fights inside" option, but when the team needs to escape from somewhere, it's going to be outside at some point. I'll see what I can do about it, though. My last combat had some cool terrain, though. I was proud of that terrain (yay for shipping yards).
As for the other options, they're much appreciated. Some of them, I'm not sure I can justify... like the Stick-n-shock ammo just doesn't make sense until somebody specifically knows they're fighting this exact team. Same with a counter-rigger. Random hacker guy might not be a bad idea, though.
I like the idea of throwing Lone Star at them more often, though. It's already worked once, in terms of getting the characters to be more shadowy. (The rigger had guns mounted on his van... it was parked in a residential area... somebody called security. They're just lucky I was nice enough to do it when the whole team was back from recon, and it wasn't just the Technomancer in the back of the van).
As for the other options, they're much appreciated. Some of them, I'm not sure I can justify... like the Stick-n-shock ammo just doesn't make sense until somebody specifically knows they're fighting this exact team. Same with a counter-rigger. Random hacker guy might not be a bad idea, though.
I like the idea of throwing Lone Star at them more often, though. It's already worked once, in terms of getting the characters to be more shadowy. (The rigger had guns mounted on his van... it was parked in a residential area... somebody called security. They're just lucky I was nice enough to do it when the whole team was back from recon, and it wasn't just the Technomancer in the back of the van).
Thirst thing would be a News Report where one official promises to end the threat of heavily armed combat drones by creating a taskforce. (so the players are warned, even if they don't know it 
).
The fastest way to neutralize the drones would be hackers (they can virtually be on-site really fast). The rigger most likely has no chance to protect all drones simultaneously.
The other suggestions so far are also good
.
).The fastest way to neutralize the drones would be hackers (they can virtually be on-site really fast). The rigger most likely has no chance to protect all drones simultaneously.
The other suggestions so far are also good
.
| QUOTE (Kerris @ Dec 15 2006, 12:55 PM) |
| when the team needs to escape from somewhere, it's going to be outside at some point. I'll see what I can do about it, though. |
So start the fight decently before it gets to that point. Even better, that way you can throw opposition at the rest of the team that might otherwise be too much, so they have to pick off the opposition and otherwise slow them down while they dash for the exit, where the cavalry waits with guns blazing.
In a stand-up, outdoor fight, the Rigger is going to be eating people. There isn't really a way around it, and usually doesn't need to be.
~J
usually there's this thing called "Discrection" that keeps riggers in check.
unless you're in the middle of Redmond, (where you would WANT a quartet of LMG packing drones)
the star tends to get called right quick when people hear LMGs going off.
unless you're in the middle of Redmond, (where you would WANT a quartet of LMG packing drones)
the star tends to get called right quick when people hear LMGs going off.
| QUOTE (Kerris) |
| As for the other options, they're much appreciated. Some of them, I'm not sure I can justify... like the Stick-n-shock ammo just doesn't make sense until somebody specifically knows they're fighting this exact team. |
Stick and Shock is legal(restricted), and used to stun people. It's more likely to be used by standard security forces then Gel rounds. I would expect a lot of armed security guards to come equiped with stick and shock ammo as the standard ammo load.
as well as a lot of runners. you never know when you might need someone alive. (for a voice print lock for example.
If he is a decent rigger his combat drones are vector thrust. Terrain is no problem for them, they are even better than humans there.
A combat rigger is an army. The only way to stop a combat rigger is to force secret runs. And when i was a gard and would see a couple of combat drones coming my way, I would be calling LoneStar with a mob master and a SAWT team.
A combat rigger is an army. The only way to stop a combat rigger is to force secret runs. And when i was a gard and would see a couple of combat drones coming my way, I would be calling LoneStar with a mob master and a SAWT team.
| QUOTE (Kerris) |
| As for the other options, they're much appreciated. Some of them, I'm not sure I can justify... like the Stick-n-shock ammo just doesn't make sense until somebody specifically knows they're fighting this exact team. Same with a counter-rigger. Random hacker guy might not be a bad idea, though. |
Stick-n-Shock is, as above, very very common. Also, keep in mind that your team isn't the first to come up with combat drones. Even if the guards don't have them loaded, it's likely that they have a locker with a couple extra guns....
As for a counter-rigger - most mid sized targets will have a security expert. He will very often be a rigger, to control their own drones. Even if he's not, again, many places are familiar with the idea of drones assaulting their compounds. They'll likely have someone on call.
it's not like "Rigger" is a very specialized and uncommon archetype....
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
Stick and Shock is legal(restricted), and used to stun people. It's more likely to be used by standard security forces then Gel rounds. I would expect a lot of armed security guards to come equiped with stick and shock ammo as the standard ammo load. |
That's pretty much what I was going to say. It also has the benefit of capturing them alive, immediately lowering their fighting capabilities, dropping drones in their tracks, and not being as destructive to company property.
Drones are probably more common than you give them credit for. If your starting rigger character can begin with them, the guys who have been running the shadows for a while would have even better ones. Any target worth hitting should have preparations in place for magical, matrix, and rigged opposition.
Btw: Why have guards at all? Drones are much much cheaper and more effective.
In fights? Certainly. Assessing threats in a crowded environment? Probably not.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| In fights? Certainly. Assessing threats in a crowded environment? Probably not. |
That's what autosofts are for... ClearSight and pattern recognition software so that officers aren't in danger... plus if you can a few rigged to recognize subtler threats, all the better. There's no need for leathal action on the drones.. a few tazers, stick and shock or pepper spray drones for riot control would be more effective than hazard duty pay for Lone Star.
Your down side to this would be either the need for expensice (rating 6+) signal that would need encrypted, or the need to send riggers out in patrol cars with lower signal...
-- I only play a rigger on Trid...
radiated areas tend to work well if he doesnt have them hardened plus if he's one to send his drones out in attack mode who's defending him? shadowrunners arent the only thing that can be stealthy heh. also maybe have mages with elementals. nothing worse for a combat drone with heavy weapons than having its ammo set off by a fire elemental.
I would think carefully before you decide to frag over a rigger.
Remember, he loses his drones, he's just lost it all. He'll probably be turned off by Shadowrun completely, "I was having fun, then the DM took away everything I could do." Drones are expensive, frequently more than the whole team makes in a run. You frag them over, and he's out of options, since all his resources are represented by that drone (squad).
Remember, he loses his drones, he's just lost it all. He'll probably be turned off by Shadowrun completely, "I was having fun, then the DM took away everything I could do." Drones are expensive, frequently more than the whole team makes in a run. You frag them over, and he's out of options, since all his resources are represented by that drone (squad).
That's precisely why I didn't want to have to take them away out of game. He made the character, it's all in the rules... he should have his drones. But they should also be in danger. They're robots. They're not invincible killing machines. And the other players need to have a chance to do something in combat.
Again, thank you all for the responses.
As per the stick-n-shock discussion - next time they infiltrate a corp, I'll definitely put that into effect. I think the next run is going to be information-gathering... specifically on the Eighty-Eights. I figure once they know that the rigger is coming after them, they'd go out and get some stick-n-shock, since they probably don't already have it (or, at least, much of it).
Also, one thing I've thought of is storage space. I'm not sure if he can fit all of his drones in his van, and thus, I'm not sure if he can bring all his drones on a run. I'll look into it.
Again, thank you all for the responses.
As per the stick-n-shock discussion - next time they infiltrate a corp, I'll definitely put that into effect. I think the next run is going to be information-gathering... specifically on the Eighty-Eights. I figure once they know that the rigger is coming after them, they'd go out and get some stick-n-shock, since they probably don't already have it (or, at least, much of it).
Also, one thing I've thought of is storage space. I'm not sure if he can fit all of his drones in his van, and thus, I'm not sure if he can bring all his drones on a run. I'll look into it.
Maybe try sending the team on a few runs that don't require combat, like surveillance (Riggers are great for that).
Another thing you could do is lock the drones into "Plot-Combat". By which I mean, feed the drones large amounts of fodder NPCs, tell the rigger he's chewing through them, and let the others deal with the dice.
For example, in a shipping yard - lots of ways to come at the PCs. Let the drones lock down some avenues, but there's more avenues than drones. (Right?)
For example, in a shipping yard - lots of ways to come at the PCs. Let the drones lock down some avenues, but there's more avenues than drones. (Right?)
that's another good thing about the stick-n-shock. If the PCs win the battle the drones are barely nicked, but they were negated during the fight.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| that's another good thing about the stick-n-shock. If the PCs win the battle the drones are barely nicked, but they were negated during the fight. |
There's just one problem with stick'n'shock...
Exactly what kind of idiot dosen't have his drone's shell grounded and electrically insulated from it's electronic components? For that matter, I thought computers in 2070 were optical - after all, everybody busted my chops about how an EMP bomb woulden't do anything. Why should tiny electrical capacitors be any better?
It's called nonconductive armor, and it already has game effects.
If you want a real world explanation you'll have to look elsewhere.
If you want a real world explanation you'll have to look elsewhere.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| It's called nonconductive armor, and it already has game effects. If you want a real world explanation you'll have to look elsewhere. |
I call BS - any robot that's not got it's software insulated by default is bullcrap.
That said, okay. Maybe it'll work once - and after that, your players go and install nonconductive armor. Now you need a new MacGuffin. Better to give the drone rigger drone-sized fun to play with, and give the others sammy-sized fun to play with.
Those drones could easily draw attention. You can counter them with mutilple lone star/corp combat drones.
Remember the enemy can do it to.
DON'T be afraid to blow up a drone or two. You don't have to frag him over but if his drone team all get some hefty damage from a few grendades he may decided to only bring one at time and save the others in reserve. Repair cost money.
An enemy hacker is of course a good idea. Drones have a much larger signal range so the hacker could be out of sight with out much trouble.
If he loses his combat drones he's only lost all because he invested everything in one basket.
As a rigger he should have had various drones for various tasks. And those drones he sends into combat SHOULD be at just as much risk as the street samurai's.
if the street samurai can get splaterd for reckless behavior in combat so should the rigger's drones.
Remember the enemy can do it to.
DON'T be afraid to blow up a drone or two. You don't have to frag him over but if his drone team all get some hefty damage from a few grendades he may decided to only bring one at time and save the others in reserve. Repair cost money.
An enemy hacker is of course a good idea. Drones have a much larger signal range so the hacker could be out of sight with out much trouble.
If he loses his combat drones he's only lost all because he invested everything in one basket.
As a rigger he should have had various drones for various tasks. And those drones he sends into combat SHOULD be at just as much risk as the street samurai's.
if the street samurai can get splaterd for reckless behavior in combat so should the rigger's drones.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) | ||
I call BS - any robot that's not got it's software insulated by default is bullcrap. That said, okay. Maybe it'll work once - and after that, your players go and install nonconductive armor. Now you need a new MacGuffin. Better to give the drone rigger drone-sized fun to play with, and give the others sammy-sized fun to play with. |
hardware. insulated hardware.
No no, you insulate the software. Have to keep all of the bits separated, you know
~J
~J
Yeah, drones being expensive is no reason to allow a rigger to do stupid things with them. I mean I've gmed a few games where a rigger took drones on a run. Ok no biggie. ALot of em are often (With more experienced riggers) actually recon drones, and they usualy have a light gun or something but they mostly just provide overwatch incase the baddies are comming up from behind.
It's the inexperienced ones I've found that take say.. a rotor drone into a building. I had one rigger do that under SR3. Ok the drone in question was not made at all for flying about indoors. Add a few light penalties. Restrict movment area.. it IS indoors afterall, and short of a giant cathedral or something there isnt really alot of room to buz about in.
The rigger in question quickly started having his drones getting scratched up, and he ALMOST crasehd one of his rotor drones. That was the alst time he ever took a rotor drone in. After that he was going with steel lynxes etc whcih are made to fight indoors.
The flyers stayed strictly outside. And combat drones, yes.. can be horribly powerful. I've played a rigger and run roughshod over NPCs before myself. But a good GM also keeps in mind, penalties that apply to players can easily apply to drones. ANd generally a drone by itself isnt as good at handling things as a PC is (Like.. a steep set of stairs if its a wheeled drone or something)
ALso dont be afraid to have the NPCs shoot back at the drones and even shoot them down. Even if you waste every one of his drones... well hes still not without recourse. The PCs could then do a new run just to get the rigger some new toys for the team. ANd hopefully he'll learn not to be so careless with them in the future.
It's the inexperienced ones I've found that take say.. a rotor drone into a building. I had one rigger do that under SR3. Ok the drone in question was not made at all for flying about indoors. Add a few light penalties. Restrict movment area.. it IS indoors afterall, and short of a giant cathedral or something there isnt really alot of room to buz about in.
The rigger in question quickly started having his drones getting scratched up, and he ALMOST crasehd one of his rotor drones. That was the alst time he ever took a rotor drone in. After that he was going with steel lynxes etc whcih are made to fight indoors.
The flyers stayed strictly outside. And combat drones, yes.. can be horribly powerful. I've played a rigger and run roughshod over NPCs before myself. But a good GM also keeps in mind, penalties that apply to players can easily apply to drones. ANd generally a drone by itself isnt as good at handling things as a PC is (Like.. a steep set of stairs if its a wheeled drone or something)
ALso dont be afraid to have the NPCs shoot back at the drones and even shoot them down. Even if you waste every one of his drones... well hes still not without recourse. The PCs could then do a new run just to get the rigger some new toys for the team. ANd hopefully he'll learn not to be so careless with them in the future.
Please, do be afraid to blow up all of his combat drones. Remember, without them he's a mundane, not skilled in combat and basically worthless.
He really will be without recourse - in his situation, I'd just have my depressed character commit suicide, having given what few possessions life left to him to the hacker, and come back with a new character.
Just like any mage who's had his Magic stat burnt down - a Rigger without drones to rig is Joe Blow OntheStreet
He really will be without recourse - in his situation, I'd just have my depressed character commit suicide, having given what few possessions life left to him to the hacker, and come back with a new character.
Just like any mage who's had his Magic stat burnt down - a Rigger without drones to rig is Joe Blow OntheStreet
No, actually, penalties that apply to players don't apply to drones very easily at all. Visibility-related penalties in particular.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Dec 16 2006, 01:18 AM) |
| Please, do be afraid to blow up all of his combat drones. Remember, without them he's a mundane, not skilled in combat and basically worthless. He really will be without recourse - in his situation, I'd just have my depressed character commit suicide, having given what few possessions life left to him to the hacker, and come back with a new character. Just like any mage who's had his Magic stat burnt down - a Rigger without drones to rig is Joe Blow OntheStreet |
A rigger who has absolutely no use/recourse other than their drones, I'm affraid to say, is in my oppinion. A totally useless rigger and not a very good one at all.
Any decent rigger should, while not be 'perfect' at everything be able to:
A) Rig vehicles.
B) Rig building security.
C) Rig drones.
D) Actually be able to fight without his drones. Not as well as a full out sammie, but you will NOT allways have your drones/vehicles to hide behind.
If your shelling out major cash for drones ALLWAYS take at least some basic combat ware, and combat skills. If you went and dumped absolutely everythign you have skill/gear wise into drones, and you go and loose em all you only get what you deserve in my book when you start doing stupid things with them.
And to Kage: Ehh.. well ok some dont apply but there are still plenty that can be easily applied in indoor scenarios. You have to keep in mind several things. THe space the drone is operating in, the ammount of clearance it has, the size of the drone etc. A Steel Lynx at least under SR3 is the size of a small coffee table. It also has wheels so while going down stairs might be doable, goign UP them is going to be alot harder.
With Rotor drones, there's a whole horde of things that can happen if your buzzing around inside with one. And it dosnt have many places to go if it starts having to take evasive action. Keep in mind, rotors are delicate. You smack up against something solid with a rotor they WILL snap. VTOLs drones of course dont have this problem but their alot more expensive. (There's also that one thats basically a VTOL Steel Lynx just with abit less capacity. I cant for thel ife of me remember the name but those are in my oppinion the ultimate in indoor combat drones under SR3)
So while drones in general might not face some of the same difficulties players do. They have alot of OTHER things to worry about at the very least (Or at least most drone types do. They also generally, cant open doors)
EDIT: Oh yeah and thats the other thing, on the subject of a rigger loosing all their drones. They are drones. They can be replaced. Note where I even suggested.. *GASP* stealing new ones?!? My god!
Just one problem... How exactly do you plan to steal new ones? And don't dare say "Just spoof a Lone Star Strato-9." Sure, it's iconic, but Lone Star has probably bugged the thing six ways from sunday - it's not the kind opf thing anybody sane hangs onto, and it's not something your fixer can fence for anything but scrap value.
Drones are, after all, expensive machinery, for just this reason they are well, well-protected. If you're trying to take one from it's job, it's likely to have an operator not too far away, in cyberspace at least, and if you're raiding the depot, well...
You might as well just commit seppuku and save them the ammo cost.
Drones are, after all, expensive machinery, for just this reason they are well, well-protected. If you're trying to take one from it's job, it's likely to have an operator not too far away, in cyberspace at least, and if you're raiding the depot, well...
You might as well just commit seppuku and save them the ammo cost.
Spoofing would be one way. And if it has a tracer.. use a jammer as a counter. Jammers are cheap, and effective. And it would only need to be big enough to cover the area of say...the interior of a van.
If the signal is jammed it cant go out. And then once it's shutdown you can pull up somewhere once you loose any persuit and take your time searching for/finding the tracking devices.
Also assumably the drones are being stored -somewhere- when their not in service. Afterall drones like anything realistically require maintenance, refuling, charging etc. I dont see how it would be much of a streatch to sneak into such a place (risky yes, but what run isnt risky?) and swiping a few. Doing the repairs/maitnence yourself etc.
There are perfectly doable ways to handle it. And if your a careful rigger you shouldnt ever be in a position where you up and loose every last one of your drones anyway. When ever I've played a rigger I've allways kept at least one or two spares just incase. I know their expensive to replace, which is why you should know enough to be careful with them.
They also should _NOT_ ever be totally immune to loss. I mean if I have a group of sec guards fighting some runners and suddenly their swarmed by drones, at least a few of those guards are going to at least try to shoot at the drones assumign they have anything that could hurt it.
If the signal is jammed it cant go out. And then once it's shutdown you can pull up somewhere once you loose any persuit and take your time searching for/finding the tracking devices.
Also assumably the drones are being stored -somewhere- when their not in service. Afterall drones like anything realistically require maintenance, refuling, charging etc. I dont see how it would be much of a streatch to sneak into such a place (risky yes, but what run isnt risky?) and swiping a few. Doing the repairs/maitnence yourself etc.
There are perfectly doable ways to handle it. And if your a careful rigger you shouldnt ever be in a position where you up and loose every last one of your drones anyway. When ever I've played a rigger I've allways kept at least one or two spares just incase. I know their expensive to replace, which is why you should know enough to be careful with them.
They also should _NOT_ ever be totally immune to loss. I mean if I have a group of sec guards fighting some runners and suddenly their swarmed by drones, at least a few of those guards are going to at least try to shoot at the drones assumign they have anything that could hurt it.
Doing a smash and grab on a drone storage depot is really akin to doing a smash and grab at the Shiawase Nuke Plant.
You're fragged in the head if you even consider it. There's a biiiig difference between "Risky" and "Suicide". Running a drone depot is right below the Shiawase Nuke Plant, which is right below the White House, which is right below taking a contract on Lofwyr.
You're fragged in the head if you even consider it. There's a biiiig difference between "Risky" and "Suicide". Running a drone depot is right below the Shiawase Nuke Plant, which is right below the White House, which is right below taking a contract on Lofwyr.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Just one problem... How exactly do you plan to steal new ones? And don't dare say "Just spoof a Lone Star Strato-9." Sure, it's iconic, but Lone Star has probably bugged the thing six ways from sunday - it's not the kind opf thing anybody sane hangs onto, and it's not something your fixer can fence for anything but scrap value. |
And any rigger worth his salt would power down the drone before transporting it back to a shop, then take the time to tear apart the sucker, remove any bugs, and re-build it. A rigger isn't just a drone pilot, they're drone pilot, you seem to be forgetting this. A good rigger is also a mechanic in their own right as well.
This is exactly my point. A rigger should by no means be totaly gimped by the loss of his drones. Gimed to an extent? Sure.
But totally worthless? Hell no. On the subject I'll give abit of a rundown on how at least I setup a rigger char for SR3.
Resources A Go go 1M nuyen yah!
Skills: B or C
Attributes: B or C
Cyberware:
Control Rig 1 or 2 (usually 2)
Some basic init gear
Smartlink-2
Misc odds n' ends, mostly visual enhancements
Drones:
2x Combat drones
1-2x Recon drones
maybe 1 or 2 other drone types
Vehicle:
I'll usually dump most of my budget into this. (EDIT: Initially had 500k down.. which isnt really acurrate I dont think. It's been ages sicne I've made a rigger and I'd have to play with the numbers alot)
Misc gear:
Repair tools. ALLWAYS
Maybe a shop if i can swing it, it really depends on what i"m aiming for.
Skills:
For combat:
-Pistols 3 or 4
-SMG 4
-stealth 3 or 4
The rest I dump into about an even split in piloting skills, and various skills that would help me build/repair/modfity drones and vehicles.
As setup sort of like that should never become 'useless' becuase of the loss of a few (Albeit very expensive) drones.
But totally worthless? Hell no. On the subject I'll give abit of a rundown on how at least I setup a rigger char for SR3.
Resources A Go go 1M nuyen yah!
Skills: B or C
Attributes: B or C
Cyberware:
Control Rig 1 or 2 (usually 2)
Some basic init gear
Smartlink-2
Misc odds n' ends, mostly visual enhancements
Drones:
2x Combat drones
1-2x Recon drones
maybe 1 or 2 other drone types
Vehicle:
I'll usually dump most of my budget into this. (EDIT: Initially had 500k down.. which isnt really acurrate I dont think. It's been ages sicne I've made a rigger and I'd have to play with the numbers alot)
Misc gear:
Repair tools. ALLWAYS
Maybe a shop if i can swing it, it really depends on what i"m aiming for.
Skills:
For combat:
-Pistols 3 or 4
-SMG 4
-stealth 3 or 4
The rest I dump into about an even split in piloting skills, and various skills that would help me build/repair/modfity drones and vehicles.
As setup sort of like that should never become 'useless' becuase of the loss of a few (Albeit very expensive) drones.
That's certainly viable, but it's far from a specialized Rigger. If you want to be a dedicated Rigger, drop the init gear, make that VCR a VCR-3, drop SMG and maybe Pistols, and probably lose fewer drones in the process.
I mean, doing stupid things is doing stupid things, and it's perfectly ok to make a less-than-ideal Rigger because you want to do more things than rig, but making a half-assed Rigger just because you're afraid you might lose some drones is… not the right call, IMO.
Also, in many cases it might be better to spend most of what you've allocated to vehicle on more drones. It doesn't take that much to build a moderate combat monster of a vehicle, and making a true road tank usually isn't the first priority.
~J
I mean, doing stupid things is doing stupid things, and it's perfectly ok to make a less-than-ideal Rigger because you want to do more things than rig, but making a half-assed Rigger just because you're afraid you might lose some drones is… not the right call, IMO.
Also, in many cases it might be better to spend most of what you've allocated to vehicle on more drones. It doesn't take that much to build a moderate combat monster of a vehicle, and making a true road tank usually isn't the first priority.
~J
My riggers can all fight by themselves, because I know none of us that GM are afraid to blow stuff up.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| My riggers can all fight by themselves, because I know none of us that GM are afraid to blow stuff up. |
That's not a Rigger, though.
That's a half-assed Sammie, and a half-assed Rigger, and ultimately he's useless, because you'd be better off with a full Sammie or a full Rigger.
Tell that to the asses he kicks.
You can definitely kick asses, and I don't agree that that combination is useless, but you can kick more asses by specializing in one or the other, at least at chargen. Post-chargen, the mounting karma costs encourage branching out.
~J
~J
Sure, I could have hyper specialized at char gen, but by branching out I was more versatile and had more fun playing the character, since "kicking asses" wasn't my only goal. YMMV.
Kicking asses is what puts money on the table. And a jack of all trades is a master of none - and in the Shadows, if you don't master your trade, you're going to be one of the next on the Scrolls of the Dead.
Sounds like somebody's DM was pampering him.
Sounds like somebody's DM was pampering him.
Yep, that's exactly what happened. 
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Kicking asses is what puts money on the table. And a jack of all trades is a master of none - and in the Shadows, if you don't master your trade, you're going to be one of the next on the Scrolls of the Dead. Sounds like somebody's DM was pampering him. |
Eh, in a group of 5+, a generalized character can be more useful than having 2 people specialized in any one thing. In D&D it's called 'the bard effect'.
| QUOTE (Lovesmasher) | ||
Eh, in a group of 5+, a generalized character can be more useful than having 2 people specialized in any one thing. In D&D it's called 'the bard effect'. |
The colliery, of course, is what happens when you have three wizards, a Cleric, and a Bard.
I'm pretty sure that a Fighter or a Rogue would have been much better recieved - a Bard can do sneaky, Thief: the Dark Age stuff, but he can't overcome the typical adventurer problem: traps. Likewise, a Bard can engage in melee - but he'll suck at it compared even to the Cleric, and he's not a good tank.
They'd rather have had a Fighter or a Rogue, than a Bard. And likewise, I'd rather have a Drone Rigger or a Sammie than a 1/2(assed) Drone Rigger+1/2(assed)Sammie.
Dude. Honestly. Take it from a guy that's seen loooots of trolls. You're gonna have to try harder that that if you wanna get a rise out of a vet.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) | ||||
The colliery, of course, is what happens when you have three wizards, a Cleric, and a Bard. I'm pretty sure that a Fighter or a Rogue would have been much better recieved - a Bard can do sneaky, Thief: the Dark Age stuff, but he can't overcome the typical adventurer problem: traps. Likewise, a Bard can engage in melee - but he'll suck at it compared even to the Cleric, and he's not a good tank. They'd rather have had a Fighter or a Rogue, than a Bard. And likewise, I'd rather have a Drone Rigger or a Sammie than a 1/2(assed) Drone Rigger+1/2(assed)Sammie. |
The cleric can solve both the traps and the melee problem
In our SR group we have
1) Rigger cameraman who likes guns.
2) Face who is a famous local trid investigative journalist.
3) Spirit Hunter type adept druggie SimRig camera-ork (recon, spirit combat and basic infiltration stuff)
4) Combat Doctor who recites 19th century poetry and chucks gas grenades.
5) Monkey Shaman parcour enthusiast
6) Troll Samurai bodyguard for the Face
7) Hacker who is completely helpless in combat <--- me!
We're all very specialized, but some of us are so specialized that we end up doing the sit and wait in some situations. Luckily I roleplay controlling camera drones and editing on the fly for our trid news broadcast.
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