Well, first of all, the fuzes of smoke grenades are not often instantaneous -- the ones I've handled had the same length fuze as the frags we had, ie. ~3 seconds, and the US AN-M8 and M18 smoke grenades use the M201A1 fuze with a delay of 1.2 - 2 seconds. Also, the fuzes of most chemical grenades, like the US M201A1 fuze, are incapable of detonating an explosive grenade, since they only ignite the filler -- they do not explode.
Anyway, hand grenades in the Shadowrun era apparently often use electronic fuzes the delays of which can be set prior to throwing.
Full Version: Yet Another Grenade Thread
If I were making SR4 hand grenades, making them wireless-capable is a neat idea, but you need to make sure it is hack-proof.
It would be crazy to put black IC in a grenade, but you could build in a mechanical switch that has to be held down to enable the wireless capability. Bring it online, set fuse, take it offline, pull pin, throw.
One thing to consider though, is do grenades really need to be that smart? I think armies would only move to electronic fuses if they were cheaper and more reliable than mechanical fuses.
It would be crazy to put black IC in a grenade, but you could build in a mechanical switch that has to be held down to enable the wireless capability. Bring it online, set fuse, take it offline, pull pin, throw.
One thing to consider though, is do grenades really need to be that smart? I think armies would only move to electronic fuses if they were cheaper and more reliable than mechanical fuses.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| If I were making SR4 hand grenades, making them wireless-capable is a neat idea, but you need to make sure it is hack-proof. |
No you dont. You dont need a 'conventional' wireless signal. Your thinking the wrong sort of wireless. Alot of people assume just becuase a device is wireless in SR that it also by default then is matrix capable. It's not. WIreless matrix in the world of SR still would work on one or more very specific bandwiths. And there are my friend alot of those.
Ontop of that they still rely on a basic 'language'. All you'd need for a remote detonated grenade to work is for it to simply detonate when it recieved a VERY specific signal. And you can make that signal damn specific. A total freak accident might still set it off WHEN ITS ARMED. But never under any other circumstances. I mean the way that sort of thing would work, if say you made the conventional spoon into the detonator (Ala Aliens Ressurection) is that the grenade isnt armed till you pull the pin and pull that 'spoon' out. At that point the grenade arms in X seconds after you do this. And after that any time it recieves the correct signal it will detonate.
You'd really want to use a good range of radio waves (or if you had some other 'wireless' transmision wavelength or some such to use) so that you dont have your buddy 100 yards away throwing a grenade and setting yorus off before your ready to have your own go off and vice versa. It's not completely fool proof but ti's fool proof enough that short of a critical glitch your at no risk. At the level of a gritcal glitch then.. well at that point 'something goes wrong' and teh grenade detonates prematurely. Maybe it was an errant signal of the proper wavelength and type. Or maybe it was something else.
But just becuase your using a wireless detonator doesnt mean some one can 'hack' it at all. I mean I dont generally accept cyberware as benig hackable at all even though it's wireless enabled as well. Maybe certain components of it are. But there would -have- to be certain hard wired bypasses you'd have to get around first before you could actually control the limb itself via wireless. That doenst mean you couldnt for example screw with say.. the smartlink. But it does mean yo ucouldnt just make the guys arm do what ever you wanted, just because it's broadcasting basic data about itself.
Afterall there's also a big difference between broadcasting wireless information, and recieving. And then even if it's reciving you can put a hardwired limit as to what one can actually do with said wireless commands. And I seriously doubt any intelligent person in 2070 would allow cybernetic limbs to be wirelessly controlled without at least a basic hardwired override in place at all times save when the wireless control is required for some very specfiic purpsoe (Such as diagnostic tests. At that point you just change some jumpers about or something)
Sensor signals aren't matrix enabled, but they can also be hacked. ( Its also rather pricey to add that to an expendable piece of ordnance.)
But heres the other catch to the issue, if the grenade required wireless activation, what happens when its jammed?
But heres the other catch to the issue, if the grenade required wireless activation, what happens when its jammed?
| QUOTE (bait) |
| Sensor signals aren't matrix enabled, but they can also be hacked. ( Its also rather pricey to add that to an expendable piece of ordnance.) But heres the other catch to the issue, if the grenade required wireless activation, what happens when its jammed? |
That's an easy one. It doesn't activate.
I was picturing grenades being wireless just for subscribing to a person's PAN not for remote detonation. In 2070, it is probably cheaper to put in a wireless system than put a manual fuse timer on the grenade. I do strongly believe the final step in arming the grenade will still involve some kind of mechanical action.
Today's grenades are made simple so you can buy lots of them. I don't see that changing in 60 years.
On the other hand, consider the SLAM. This is essentially a swiss army hand grenade. It is a tool bought in limited numbers for special forces use. I could easily see the stuff you folks are talking about being applied to a future SLAM.
Today's grenades are made simple so you can buy lots of them. I don't see that changing in 60 years.
On the other hand, consider the SLAM. This is essentially a swiss army hand grenade. It is a tool bought in limited numbers for special forces use. I could easily see the stuff you folks are talking about being applied to a future SLAM.
Yeah, I am of the mindset that grenades come standard with wireless access...and that doesn't mean matrix-access. So I am in the same boat there.
So, in my campaign, I think I set a device rating 3 for grenades, so while they can be hacked, you need to be fairly close...the group I run for has used wireless detonation on several occaisions, and in each of those, while the opponents could have hacked in, the situation did not allow the time or awareness to even think about it.
I mean, if the device is running in hidden mode and the grenade is concealed...I think that prevents most hacking right there...now if the opponent had time to assess the situation, sure, hacking into the comm the grenades are subscribed to or spoofing that comms signal, could be done to hack a grenade, but other than that, I don't see hacking grenades as something to worry about.
So, in my campaign, I think I set a device rating 3 for grenades, so while they can be hacked, you need to be fairly close...the group I run for has used wireless detonation on several occaisions, and in each of those, while the opponents could have hacked in, the situation did not allow the time or awareness to even think about it.
I mean, if the device is running in hidden mode and the grenade is concealed...I think that prevents most hacking right there...now if the opponent had time to assess the situation, sure, hacking into the comm the grenades are subscribed to or spoofing that comms signal, could be done to hack a grenade, but other than that, I don't see hacking grenades as something to worry about.
I also would consider grenades to be wireless, but still need a physical trigger to turn them on so that you can't possibly hack someone's grenade on their vest and make it explode.
Now if someone is attempting to hide a grenade somewhere planning to detonate it wirelessly as a trap for you and they take a few seconds setting it up, and you happen to know they're there, then maybe the grenade could be hacked and detonated after the guy armed it but before he finished hiding it.
Now if someone is attempting to hide a grenade somewhere planning to detonate it wirelessly as a trap for you and they take a few seconds setting it up, and you happen to know they're there, then maybe the grenade could be hacked and detonated after the guy armed it but before he finished hiding it.
One of my villains constructed a makeshift trap on the fly while running from players. Put three grenades on the door and a camera on the table and run. He instructed his commlink to instantly send a detonation signal to the grenades when the camera recorded a valid metahuman silhouette.
It's no different than if he just tossed an arm grenade behind him, but we're all still playing with AR possibilities.
It's no different than if he just tossed an arm grenade behind him, but we're all still playing with AR possibilities.
I think we have discussed it before in this thread, you'd really want a mechanical safety on your wireless grenade, and a hardwired minimal fuse time.
Absolutely. Anything else would be suicidal.
But even with those there are still going to be occasions where the grenade can be used in inventive ways and/or turned against the owner.
But even with those there are still going to be occasions where the grenade can be used in inventive ways and/or turned against the owner.
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I mean, if the device is running in hidden mode and the grenade is concealed...I think that prevents most hacking right there...now if the opponent had time to assess the situation, sure, hacking into the comm the grenades are subscribed to or spoofing that comms signal, could be done to hack a grenade, but other than that, I don't see hacking grenades as something to worry about. |
problem: what if an enemy hacker is already in ur commlink hackin ur mans? as soon as you subscribe the grenade (which we will assume involves some kind of physical manipulation of the grenade), he can set the timer to 2 seconds, or 3 minutes, or whatever.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
problem: what if an enemy hacker is already in ur commlink hackin ur mans? as soon as you subscribe the grenade (which we will assume involves some kind of physical manipulation of the grenade), he can set the timer to 2 seconds, or 3 minutes, or whatever. |
And that's not totally awesome?!
In this case, it's really just a matter of who has more initiative, isn't it?
well, it's cool, but i'm not sure that the liability involved is worth the added coolness. on the other hand, if you suspect your network is hacked, you can just not activate your grenades' wireless functionality.
Is it worth a 'coolness' factor? No. But it sure as HELL is worth the 'utility' factor. Wires can be detected, wires can be cut. Wireless can be noticed, wireless can be jammed.
But wireless signals only have to be a very very quick 'burst transmission' and there's so many damn frequencies, that especially in the wireless world not even the most observant hacker is likely to notice it, much less be able to do anything in time.
Also teh whole timer thing. Why is that even an issue? As folk mentioned. Go hardware timer. You set that timer before hand. Or more likely the gernade only HAS a set timer. You cant change it. Unless you mean setting the remote to send the signal at a certani time. But the thing is the sending unit is NOT a reciever. It doenst need that component. So you cant hack it. It's just not possible.
You could alter it if you could get ahold of the actual transmitter. But theres nothing else you can dot to stop it. If you just some how happen to know the very specific frequency, signal and encryption etc that the wireless grenade is looking for as a detonation signal. Then yes. A canny enemy could detonate the grenade on you. But thats a hell of alot of information needed well before hand. And since the grenade itself is a totally passive reciever you cant just 'ping' it and see what its settings are. It wont respond beyond. Ok time to blow up now! Booom!
And for that response you need to know exactly what sort of signal it's waiting for.
But wireless signals only have to be a very very quick 'burst transmission' and there's so many damn frequencies, that especially in the wireless world not even the most observant hacker is likely to notice it, much less be able to do anything in time.
Also teh whole timer thing. Why is that even an issue? As folk mentioned. Go hardware timer. You set that timer before hand. Or more likely the gernade only HAS a set timer. You cant change it. Unless you mean setting the remote to send the signal at a certani time. But the thing is the sending unit is NOT a reciever. It doenst need that component. So you cant hack it. It's just not possible.
You could alter it if you could get ahold of the actual transmitter. But theres nothing else you can dot to stop it. If you just some how happen to know the very specific frequency, signal and encryption etc that the wireless grenade is looking for as a detonation signal. Then yes. A canny enemy could detonate the grenade on you. But thats a hell of alot of information needed well before hand. And since the grenade itself is a totally passive reciever you cant just 'ping' it and see what its settings are. It wont respond beyond. Ok time to blow up now! Booom!
And for that response you need to know exactly what sort of signal it's waiting for.
Kesslan, you're not hearing me. i'm talking about a hacker that has already hacked your commlink. he doesn't have to listen for a wireless transmission, he just has to watch your subscription list. as soon as a grenade comes up, he's got you.
in SR, grenades have variable timers. yes, you can set it beforehand--but, again, if you make them wireless, then if you're hacked when you set the grenade, the enemy hacker can make whatever adjustments he wants.
you could make the wireless component not hook into your commlink at all, of course--but in that case, there's nothing to be transmitted. you press some numbers on the grenade itself, pull the pin and drop the spoon, and throw. no communication needed at all.
in SR, grenades have variable timers. yes, you can set it beforehand--but, again, if you make them wireless, then if you're hacked when you set the grenade, the enemy hacker can make whatever adjustments he wants.
you could make the wireless component not hook into your commlink at all, of course--but in that case, there's nothing to be transmitted. you press some numbers on the grenade itself, pull the pin and drop the spoon, and throw. no communication needed at all.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| Kesslan, you're not hearing me. i'm talking about a hacker that has already hacked your commlink. he doesn't have to listen for a wireless transmission, he just has to watch your subscription list. as soon as a grenade comes up, he's got you. |
Yeah but where does the comlink ever come into play? It doesnt. Unless of course your wanting to use yoru commlink as the detonator. Which yes I know has been suggested above.
But to me thats stupid for the very reason here. A hacker could potentially be in yoru commlink that very moment. Which makes it terribly easy for him to mess with any 'subscribed' device like a grenade.
Which is why you DONT use a matrix enabled connection at all. You use a totally seperate remote. Thats also why radios still exist in SR. You cant 'hack' a radio. You can jam it, you can with some work, listen in, even crack any encryption on it, and transmit over it. But tahts it. That takes time, and alot of work as well. And when the purpose of that radio communication is purely to send a coded burst singnal that only lasts a faction of a second to a grenade. Then without alot of work ahead of time as I've said in my previous post. Theres damn all you can do to stop or otherwise mess with it.
we're talking about different things. you're talking about a multipurpose explosive that you can use as a grenade. i'm talking about a grenade with a variable timer that you can set as you pull the pin and throw it, rather than huddling in your foxhole trying to fiddle with the button controls.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| we're talking about different things. you're talking about a multipurpose explosive that you can use as a grenade. i'm talking about a grenade with a variable timer that you can set as you pull the pin and throw it, rather than huddling in your foxhole trying to fiddle with the button controls. |
Well technically your talking about the same thing I am. Just a differnet way of going about it. No fiddling of buttons need really apply. Twist a nob on the grenade to say.. 3 seconds. Pull the pin throw.. wait till it's where you want it jsut about, then hit the button to set it off.
Where as your going it seems mroe like subscribe to comlink. Pull pin, via comlink set timer to 10 seconds. Throw.
I dont think either way is faster than the other in the end. Each has an advantage and a dissadvantage. Your way is faster once the grenade is allready subscribed. Whcih you could do well in advance of course. But then it's at the potential mercy of a hacker.
My way it's not but you -may- have to change the timer right then and there. You'd have some sort of default setting for the grenade. But you may want to change it which means you'd have ot set the nob. Instead of mentally just telling it to go to 10 seconds (free action perhaps?) you'd have to take a simple.
Hmm on the idea of a 'mutli purpose explosive' that can be used as a grenade. Makes me wonder what you could realy do under SR3/SR4 that would still be practical.
Adding in the otpion of a radio/wireless detonator is one thing. Timer is another. Maybe make the explosive a cylindrical grenade with an adhesive bottom. Pull a cap off on the bottom to expose the adhesive which you can then stick to just about anything? And as a cylinder you can still roll it down a hallway at someone or throw it towards them easily enough.
Maybe add in a 'proximity fuse' option. Make the timer a physical dial (my preference at least that way you cant hack it remotely) and just have one setting be 'proximity' which arms after you hit the button on the remote. Ultimately to me the remote should only ever just 'send a signal' Any other options should ultimatley be build right into the grenade itself. At the same time you dont want too many toys on the damn thing becuas ethen it just becomes horribly impractical.
Adding in the otpion of a radio/wireless detonator is one thing. Timer is another. Maybe make the explosive a cylindrical grenade with an adhesive bottom. Pull a cap off on the bottom to expose the adhesive which you can then stick to just about anything? And as a cylinder you can still roll it down a hallway at someone or throw it towards them easily enough.
Maybe add in a 'proximity fuse' option. Make the timer a physical dial (my preference at least that way you cant hack it remotely) and just have one setting be 'proximity' which arms after you hit the button on the remote. Ultimately to me the remote should only ever just 'send a signal' Any other options should ultimatley be build right into the grenade itself. At the same time you dont want too many toys on the damn thing becuas ethen it just becomes horribly impractical.
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