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Aaron
Has anybody tried applying the mechanics for suppressive fire to grenade resolution? If you have, how did that work out?

It occurred to me while reading about the Storm power in SM that the case of suppressive fire (being caught in an area where metal is flying at high velocity) bears a lot of similarity to a grenade blast (being caught in an area where metal is flying at high velocity).
eidolon
Well, the thing about a grenade blast is how fast it's over. If you know it's out there, and you know you're behind cover, you're good. If you don't know it's there, and you're exposed, well, you're probably pretty effectively "suppressed".

A single grenade just doesn't last long enough to have the same effect as suppressive fire really.

Now, if there has been a grenade thrown, and you're still alive, sure, you're going to be careful about exposing yourself, but you're also going to try and move to eliminate the thrower once you're reasonably certain you can do so.

With suppressive fire, you're keeping them down so that they aren't shooting at you (hopefully), usually so someone else can move.

Moon-Hawk
There needs to be a surpressive grenade.
Something that burns for a few seconds and spits a lot of fire and sparks and other unpleasant crap in a several meter radius. Would that be vaguely like white phosphorous? I don't know much about grenades, but somebody out there does, I'd wager.
DireRadiant
The grenade lands, rolls around, pops up an eyestalk, and cherrfully and loudly says, "Hi, I'm a class 5 anti personell smart grenade! Please be warned of the following side effects. Bleeding, pain, visual distortion, aural discomfort, temporal distortions, possible broken bones, nausea, and lots of other unpleasant things we don't want to think about. Ares Corporation disavows all laibility for the use of this smart grenade, now available in special bulk discount shipments. Call 89759234857. No no, don't run away, I go off if you ..."

BOOM
Demerzel
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
No no, don't run away, I go off if you ...

BOOM

There's an AI in that grenade... poor AI...
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Dec 21 2006, 07:35 AM)
No no, don't run away, I go off if you ...

BOOM

There's an AI in that grenade... poor AI...

There's no reason to assume that an artificial intelligence would have motivations or basic instincts consistent with a biological being that was created through natural selection.
In other words, it is an adaptive trait, "not wanting to die", one that is generally shared by most things that have succeeded in surviving and evolving. An artificial intelligence has no inherent reason to not want to die unless it is programmed to. For the grenade, the ultimate joy and rapture is explosive oblivion and a job well done. wink.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Demerzel @ Dec 21 2006, 10:39 AM)
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Dec 21 2006, 07:35 AM)
No no, don't run away, I go off if you ...

BOOM

There's an AI in that grenade... poor AI...

There's no reason to assume that an artificial intelligence would have motivations or basic instincts consistent with a biological being that was created through natural selection.
In other words, it is an adaptive trait, "not wanting to die", one that is generally shared by most things that have succeeded in surviving and evolving. An artificial intelligence has no inherent reason to not want to die unless it is programmed to. For the grenade, the ultimate joy and rapture is explosive oblivion and a job well done. wink.gif

...Bomb#20: "In the beginning, there was darkness. And the darkness was without form, and void".

Boiler: "What the hell is he talking about?"

Bomb#20: "And in addition to the darkness there was also me. And I moved upon the face of the darkness. And I saw that I was alone. Let there be light."
Eryk the Red
I'd go with the classic: "I'm a thirty second bomb! I'm a thirty second bomb! Twenty-nine! Twenty-eight! Twenty-seven!..."
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Something that burns for a few seconds and spits a lot of fire and sparks and other unpleasant crap in a several meter radius. Would that be vaguely like white phosphorous?

WP munitions in a smoke or anti-personnel application usually explode and spread their content in one go, the phosphorous then continuing to burn on the ground and in the air for a while. Other incendiary weapons will simply burn intensely without being spread over a significant area. I can't think of a weapon with applications similar to grenades that would continue to launch projectiles over a period of time.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Something that burns for a few seconds and spits a lot of fire and sparks and other unpleasant crap in a several meter radius. Would that be vaguely like white phosphorous?

WP munitions in a smoke or anti-personnel application usually explode and spread their content in one go, the phosphorous then continuing to burn on the ground and in the air for a while. Other incendiary weapons will simply burn intensely without being spread over a significant area. I can't think of a weapon with applications similar to grenades that would continue to launch projectiles over a period of time.

Cool, thanks.
But, in your opinion, would such a device be useful?
Butterblume
Some fireworks launch projectiles over a period of time. But unless you are wearing your kerosene drenched cotton wool armor, that's not really an issue wobble.gif.

Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
But, in your opinion, would such a device be useful?

I'd say no. It seems to me the most efficient use of explosives or pyrotechnics in a small package is to make it all go off at once. This allows it to destroy larger structures, penetrate better, have a greater area of effect, etc. It also means that if you happen to catch the enemy unawares, you are more likely to kill him than suppress him. If you do want to suppress an enemy, just keep firing more at him. Like this.
Shrike30
I only caught the first few seconds of that clip (I'm at work), but someone downrange is going to have a really, really bad day.

The problem is going to be when players get access to FA grenade launchers. Then they're going to want to COMBINE suppressive fire and grenades...
Moon-Hawk
Well all right then. Thanks. smile.gif
lorechaser
This would function better as a drone, I think.

Something in line with the iBall - you toss it. It lands, and uses small legs to right itself, then create a tripod. It then begins spewing fletchettes in a random pattern, or a circle, or some such.

I say fletchettes because I'm still stuck on the idea of peeling off tiny slivers of a disk to make them. Which would mean it was easier to create them on the fly....

Shrike30
Something like the shuriken weapons from WH40k, or the flywheel gun from CP2020? Amusing thought, but I always wondered what their penetration would be like.

If you had the cash (and with any luck, we'll be seeing prices drop again with SR4), building a laser-firing drone you could toss into a room should be doable.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Shrike30)
If you had the cash (and with any luck, we'll be seeing prices drop again with SR4), building a laser-firing drone you could toss into a room should be doable.

I'm sure it would. Does someone have an application in mind for such a thing -- something actual grenades would not be more effective at?
kzt
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I'm sure it would. Does someone have an application in mind for such a thing -- something actual grenades would not be more effective at?

I used grenades with prox sensors to keep people from following us and to deny corridors and such.
Lazerface
So, either the talking bomb is like the talking toaster from Red Dwarf, or the Tachikomas from GITS?
knasser
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...Bomb#20: "In the beginning, there was darkness. And the darkness was without form, and void".

Boiler: "What the hell is he talking about?"

Bomb#20: "And in addition to the darkness there was also me. And I moved upon the face of the darkness. And I saw that I was alone. Let there be light."


How do you know you exist?

Hmmm. Well... I think therefore I am!

That's good. That's very very good. Now, how do you know anything else exists?
lorechaser
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 21 2006, 04:04 PM)
...Bomb#20: "In the beginning, there was darkness. And the darkness was without form, and void".

Boiler: "What the hell is he talking about?"

Bomb#20: "And in addition to the darkness there was also me. And I moved upon the face of the darkness. And I saw that I was alone. Let there be light."


How do you know you exist?

Hmmm. Well... I think therefore I am!

That's good. That's very very good. Now, how do you know anything else exists?

When I blow up, I think it also blows up?
mfb
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
The grenade lands, rolls around, pops up an eyestalk, and cherrfully and loudly says, "Hi, I'm a class 5 anti personell smart grenade! Please be warned of the following side effects. Bleeding, pain, visual distortion, aural discomfort, temporal distortions, possible broken bones, nausea, and lots of other unpleasant things we don't want to think about. Ares Corporation disavows all laibility for the use of this smart grenade, now available in special bulk discount shipments. Call 89759234857. No no, don't run away, I go off if you ..."

BOOM

one of the coolest ideas in Starship Troopers (the book) was a grenade that shouted "i'm a bomb! i'm a bomb! 29! 28! 27!..."
Trax
I've read the book, but I don't remember that one.
mfb
it's right towards the beginning. Johnny jumps through a wall into a church or something, while they're raiding that Skinny city.
eidolon
Just for reference: Grenades
mfb
re: using the suppression rules for grenades. this could be thought of as an abstraction of the fact that you don't always know how long the grenade's timer has. as it stands, in SR, peoples' reactions to grenades is skewed because they generally do know exactly how long before the grenade goes off.
Butterblume
Actually, they only know when the players are metagaming nyahnyah.gif.
Konsaki
QUOTE (mfb)
re: using the suppression rules for grenades. this could be thought of as an abstraction of the fact that you don't always know how long the grenade's timer has. as it stands, in SR, peoples' reactions to grenades is skewed because they generally do know exactly how long before the grenade goes off.

So as a GM, make the timer on the nades random... It's well within the GM's powers to do so...
mfb
QUOTE (Butterblume)
Actually, they only know when the players are metagaming nyahnyah.gif.

if they're not metagaming to some degree, they're not trying. i think 'metagaming' is a bad term; a more accurate one would be metaroleplaying.

as for the GM randomizing timers, the GM can do anything he wants. that's a given. but this is a discussion of rules that can be consistently applied.
Butterblume
Yeah, metagaming is probably the wrong term. Still, the Chars don't know about combat rounds or Initiative phases...

Throw your wireless grenade and detonate it with a free action. Rules-conform and not foreseeable.
mfb
a better option--and one that will help make combat generally more unsure and difficult--is to make players roll Perception to actually notice the grenade being thrown, and where it lands. if you get lots of hits, you know where the grenade is and when it was thrown. if you only get a few, you only know that there's a grenade somewhere.
Kesslan
Depending on the surroundings I'd also put a higher/lower threashold on that. Afterall if it's indoors, there's less places for that grenade ot be thrown from generally speaking, it'll be far more visible, and will make a fair bit of noise when it lands on the ground.

Outdoors in say.. a forrest, it would be potentially much harder to notice.

I mean in an empty room it's very easy to see where a grenade lands, but say in a farmer's field there are tons of things obscuring your LOS on the grenade and its' very easy to midjudge where it landed assuming you noticed it in the first place.

Overall though MFB, the whole perception thing vs Dodge to me makes alot more sense.

Also some one in either this thread or the other necroed grenade thread mentioned they couldnt see how a 'failure' with a grenade throw can actually turn into a success. This is, quite by and large, due to the fact that hand grenades, have a habit of bouncing and rolling around, some times a great deal. It depends on design and terrain and such. It also dpeends a great deal on luck.

Let me give you an example.

Your target is taking cover behind a partial wall in.. lets say a house, lets make it the kitchen, and it's one of those ones that has a cut down wall looking into the living room, your in the living room. You throw the grenade at thep erson, but you overthrow it, so the grenade sails past the target. However due to arc, it by chance, hits the lip of the counter, and bounces back towards the target, then rolling as it hits the ground it comes to a stop right next to the intended target purely by blind luck, and maybe partially due to a slight tilt in the floor of the kitchen.

So suddenly your over extended throw actualy winds up being ALOT better than had you actually landed it abouts where you initally intended the grenade to go. There isnt really any 'dodging' a grenade, just like there isnt relaly any 'dodging' a bullet, your either in the way or your not. Now the idea of 'dodging' a bullet largely comes from the fact that it's a relatively smal projectile, there's cover, and your target very likely isnt standing compeltely still unless he's a total iddiot. He'll duck behind cover shoot back etc.

Grenades are very different, their area of effect. AOE does not require a great deal of accuracy, the whole point of AOE is to get that device into 'the general area' of the target. Thats all thats required, the actual AOE effect (In this case the explosion of the grenade and the resulting fragments, shockwave etc) is what does the damage.

Another anology migh tbe something like 'doding a bee' and 'dodging a bus'. We'll assume little Timmy is standing for some stupid reason playing in the middle of traffic. Now, standing in the middle of the lane, a bee suddenly flies right at his head! 'Ducking' aka dodging, he can still stand exactly where he is, and the Bee will miss hitting him. However, because he didnt move out the traffic lane, he's promptly hit by the bus, which is far large than the bee and takes up the entire lane rather than a very small argually unnoticeable space within that lane.

So the only way for Timmy to avoid becomming Timmy brand salsa is to actually 'move' out of the way, be it jumping out of the way or walking out of the path of the oncomming bus. The bus we shall say is being driven by FrankTrollman's nazi Carebears, which is why their not doing anything at all to avoid hitting Timmy. Afterall little Timmy being geeked by a bus will make everyone 'happy'!

This really then is where that perception thing MFB suggets comes into play, does Timmy notice the evil Carebear bus and thus moves out of the way in time? Or does he not? Or perhaps that bee hit him right in the eye and he has to try to see the oncomming bus through his tears of pain and sorrow (Visibility modifiers) and on a bad roll doesnt quite see the buss well enough to move completely out of the way (And gets clipped), manages to figgure out where the bus is in relation to him and thus avoids it, or fails miserably to notice it at all and gets hit dead on.
eidolon
QUOTE (mfb)
a better option--and one that will help make combat generally more unsure and difficult--is to make players roll Perception to actually notice the grenade being thrown, and where it lands. if you get lots of hits, you know where the grenade is and when it was thrown. if you only get a few, you only know that there's a grenade somewhere.

And if they don't notice it, they can't react to it. I like.
lorechaser
I suspect that soldiers in combat also have a fairly good idea of the time between a grenade landing an exploding. It's why people sometimes prime grenades before they throw them....
Austere Emancipator
Most hand grenade fuzes have a 0.5-1 second variance, and there's no way of telling whether they were cooked before they were thrown or often even where they came from, so there's really no way you could know how much time you have when a grenade lands. The few accounts of such that I've read seem to bear this out: after spotting a grenade everybody immediately takes cover and doesn't make a move until it's gone off or enough time has passed that it's probably not going to go off at all.
Butterblume
That would mean a grenade can sometimes be used like suppressive fire wink.gif.
Soldiers often yell 'grenade' when there is a grenade, so everybody around him is aware that there is a grenade.
eidolon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Most hand grenade fuzes have a 0.5-1 second variance, and there's no way of telling whether they were cooked before they were thrown or often even where they came from, so there's really no way you could know how much time you have when a grenade lands. The few accounts of such that I've read seem to bear this out: after spotting a grenade everybody immediately takes cover and doesn't make a move until it's gone off or enough time has passed that it's probably not going to go off at all.

Cooking the grenade is a Bad Idea™ for the exact same reason. You see it in movies all the time, but it's not something you'll ever be trained to do because it's a stupid ass idea that can get you killed.

In fact, when you see someone in a movie let the spoon fly, you're just seeing more romanticized nonsense as well. You hold the grenade in such a manner that the spoon stays stationary, and throw from that grip so that the spoon leaves as you throw, arming the grenade (starting the fuse).




mfb
actually, for bunkers, they actually do train you to cook the grenade for, as i recall, 5 seconds. that way, the guys in the bunker don't have time to grab it and throw it back--they're more likely to try to than someone on open ground, since there's no room to hide in a bunker.
Butterblume
My online research yielded the fact that spoon is a slang term for the safety handle.

'Den Löffel abgeben', verbatim 'to hand in the spoon' is the german expression for 'to kick the bucket'.

QUOTE (mfb)
actually, for bunkers, they actually do train you to cook the grenade for, as i recall, 5 seconds. that way, the guys in the bunker don't have time to grab it and throw it back--they're more likely to try to than someone on open ground, since there's no room to hide in a bunker.

They didn't train us that way. Would have been a bad Idea, since our grenades had a 3s fuse biggrin.gif.
Austere Emancipator
Ours too had a 2.5-3 second fuze, and were always handled so that the spoon was placed firmly against the palm as you threw them. All I know about cooking nades I learned from America's Army (the game). smile.gif
mfb
the grenades US soldiers are issued have a 7-second timer.
Shrike30
It's entirely dependent on the type of grenade you're using. Some flash-bangs have a 1-1.5 second timer on them, the theory being that you are supposed to throw them into a room and have them go off to add some shock value to your subsequent assault through that doorway (hopefully preventing the people inside from spraying down the doorway, nearby walls, and anybody they see with bullets). There's no reason for them to have a longer timer on them, given their narrow-focus application.

On the other hand, you've got the 6-7 second fuse on some of the grenades used by the US military. Having a fuse that long can slow you down a bit (you've got to "cook" it for a couple of seconds if you're going to toss it into a room, so that you reduce the risk of it getting tossed back out), but generally lends itself to more flexibility: if you're gonna baseball it pretty far, that 7 seconds lets you pop the spoon, get a proper grip on the body of the grenade, and heave it further than you could with the kind of grip you could get with the spoon still attached.

And having that 7 second fuse means if you drop it, you've got a few extra seconds to try and dispose of the thing before it kills you and your squadmates.
Kesslan
So it's throw the pin drop the grenade right? grinbig.gif

Some grenades actually have fuses as long as 10 seconds. Though thats not terribly common with more 'modern' grenades. However alot of the older/older style grenades do infact have a fuse that long. Which... yeah, is actually quite abit of time to 'run away'.

In SR grenades apparently all have a 3 second fuse. Afterall it goes off at the end of the IP and an IP is 'aproximately' 3 seconds according to the SR4 main book. And I think it's the same thing for SR3 but I could be wrong about that (I know it's still only a matter of seconds however). This of course also means generally you'd be stupid to try to 'cook' the grenade, unless you had enhanced reflexes, and even then I really wouldnt do that.
ShadowDragon8685
You want an effective surpression grenade?

You need a chunk of lead, shaped into a grenade's shape, painted like a grenade, with a red LED on top of it.

Chuck that into a room, wiat the 1.5 seconds it will take everyone to have yelled "Grenade!" and dived away, then you rush the place and geek them while they're curled up behind the obvious cover.
Kesslan
Nah, I prefer the Starship trooper thing yelling "i'm a bomb! I'm a bomb!"
kzt
QUOTE (Kesslan)
In SR grenades apparently all have a 3 second fuse. Afterall it goes off at the end of the IP and an IP is 'aproximately' 3 seconds according to the SR4 main book. And I think it's the same thing for SR3 but I could be wrong about that (I know it's still only a matter of seconds however). This of course also means generally you'd be stupid to try to 'cook' the grenade, unless you had enhanced reflexes, and even then I really wouldnt do that.

I could swear that it says they have programmable electronic fuzes, which you can set before arming.

There are some good reasons why you might want to fiddle with the timer, but I'd want it to really obvious that someone had. It would sort of suck to throw it and find that someone had set up for zero delay for a booby trap.
Fortune
QUOTE (Kesslan)
In SR grenades apparently all have a 3 second fuse. Afterall it goes off at the end of the IP and an IP is 'aproximately' 3 seconds according to the SR4 main book.

I'm pretty sure that it is an entire Combat Turn itself that is approximately 3 seconds, and not each IP.
Kesslan
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 23 2006, 03:13 PM)
In SR grenades apparently all have a 3 second fuse. Afterall it goes off at the end of the IP and an IP is 'aproximately' 3 seconds according to the SR4 main book.

I'm pretty sure that it is an entire Combat Turn itself that is approximately 3 seconds, and not each IP.

Err yeah sorry, mind fart there, ment Combat Turn not IP wobble.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Kesslan)
So it's throw the pin drop the grenade right?

there was actually a guy in basic who sorta did that. the way we do grenades, you hold the spoon and pull the pin. when you're ready to throw, you release the spoon and then throw the grenade. this guy did everything up to the throwing--pin, spoon, freeze. the drill sergeant whacked his arm over the top of the cement barrier to make him let go.
Kesslan
Fun stuff, reminds me of one of the Darwin award reports where some guy went out on an M203 range, foudn two 'duds' and hit em togeather (Detonator to Detonator) while saying "Nah, their duds, nothing will happen, see?" *BOOM*. Or soemthing like that.

Dunno if it's true, but I could sure belive it of some people.
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