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Demerzel
Heh, glad to be of service. smile.gif
BishopMcQ
In reference to the warded bullet discussion, I'd point you here

QUOTE
RunnerPaul:
When the text says that a ward must extend one meter from its physical anchor in every direction, is there any sort of exemption for wards that share part of the ward's structure with the structure of the physical anchor? For example, I have a room that that is warded, and the physical anchor of the ward consists of the walls of the room themselves, which have been decorated with the appropriate arcane symbology. If I wanted to ward the room directly next door with a separate ward, would I be able to, or would the ward from the original room actually extend 1 meter into the neighboring rooms?


DemonSeedElite:
I think this is my bad. What you wish to do would be acceptable and I'm not sure I was clear on that. The rule about wards extending outwards from the physical anchor is to prevent ultra-thin or tiny wards. As long as the area you are warding is of a decent size (at least 1 cubic meter, I'd say, since that's how much the 1 meter in every direction limitation entails), I feel it is totally fine for one side of the ward to lay flat against the physical anchor.

Demerzel
That rules out a warded briefcase as well.
BishopMcQ
True, which is why I've been picturing more of a polycarbonate air-tank filled with Seven-7 inside the briefcase. It meets most of the requirements of the initial scenario, bypasses most sensors, and is commonly available enough to be hard to trace.

CSI: It seems that they used an empty propane bottle that had been returned for refilling. Unfortunately, these criminals filled it with military grade nerve gas.

Detective: So that puts us back to finding the nerve gas...

CSI: The damage to the container was consistent with thaumaturgical studies on Wreck. Unfortunately due to the fragility of the container and the time it took to clear the area, all residual traces were gone.

Detective: So that puts us back to finding the nerve gas?
ornot
Wouldn't whatever they used as a ritual link have held onto its signature for longer? I don't think an astral spotter would have been any good since the suitcase wasn't magically active. Still a tough investigation to pull off and an imaginative use of magic.
ShadowDragon
I didn't mean a ward as in the type of thing that keeps astral entities out. I meant more of a magical sensor to make it more compatible as a combat spell trigger. It's obviously not something you'd find in the books. The 'what' is not really a detail I ironed out because I didn't see a need to. It works the way it's supposed to work and that's that.
Konsaki
And as a GM, you can do that.

GM - It does this when this event happens.
Player - How does it work?
GM - Does your character have the correct knowledge skill to figure it out?
Player - Um... no...
GM - Then I guess you'll never know...
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (Konsaki)
And as a GM, you can do that.

GM - It does this when this event happens.
Player - How does it work?
GM - Does your character have the correct knowledge skill to figure it out?
Player - Um... no...
GM - Then I guess you'll never know...

lol I try not to pull that card too often. I was prepared to give them an explanation (and the mage did have the right knowledge skills), just not one that's heavy on the game mechanics. If the players wanted to reproduce the wardish thingy, THEN I can make up some numbers and rules, but I figured that wasn't something that would be needed right away.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Konsaki)
GM - It does this when this event happens.
Player - How does it work?
GM - Does your character have the correct knowledge skill to figure it out?
Player - Um... no...

Obviously the false answer by the player.

The right one would be:
Yes sir, right here sir, line one under knowledge skills. And I have both high intuition and logic. Says so on the char sheet.
Banaticus
QUOTE (McQuillan)
In reference to the warded bullet discussion, I'd point you here


QUOTE
DemonSeed Elite:
As long as the area you are warding is of a decent size (at least 1 cubic meter, I'd say, since that's how much the 1 meter in every direction limitation entails)...

I just wanted to point out that, if you start with a point then go 1 meter in every direction (one meter to the left, one meter to the right, one meter up, one meter down, one meter forward, one meter backwards, etc.) you end up with a sphere 1 meter in diameter. That sphere would not have an internal volume of 1 cubic meter, it would have an internal volume of (4/3)pi*r^3, or just over 1/2 cubic meter, .523m.
hyzmarca
Right, but you still end up having a 2000mm pistol. It's perfect for trolls but not very good for anyone else.
Banaticus
What was that about 2000mm pistols?
Demerzel
QUOTE (Banaticus)
That sphere would not have an internal volume of 1 cubic meter, it would have an internal volume of (4/3)pi*r^3, or just over 1/2 cubic meter, .523m.

I get over 4 cubic meters.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Banaticus)
What was that about 2000mm pistols?

In order to place a ward in a bullet so that it can force astral combat with as astrally active target, you need a projectile with a diameter of 2 meters, assuming that it extends 1 meter in all directions. Thus, the 2000mm pistol.

Demerzel is correct about the volume. The radius is 1m if the ward extends in all directions from the center of the anchor.

However, if we are measuring one meter from the edge of the ward instead of 1 meter from the center, we would indeed have a radius of .5m. In this cast you'd only need a 1000mm pistol for a warded bullet.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Kesslan)
[QUOTE=ShadowDragon,Jan 10 2007, 03:42 AM]
Its still a relatively good trigger. What your forgetting is that even 'good triggers' can allways screw up.

WIreless signal detonator? Well in this world of wireless do-dads it's reasonably possible some random signal on the same wavelength trips it.

Requiring it be hit with a combat spell isnt any worse. Afterall who the frag targets a breifcase with a combat spell? It's like shooting a fly with a flamethrower.

Having the party mage effectively drop the magical equivilant of a tac nuke on the party isnt one of those expected things either.

Dude, it could screw up or it could work.

See, the wireless thing could back fire on you and causea problem. IT could skrew up. Yep.


That is the same thing as it could work. Someone could throw a combat spell at it. It could work.

THat is like saying someone will turn down cash becuase they don't take checks.

See, you see a 100 dollar bill, and you know it is worth 20 dollars. It could bea counter fit. But the chances are ti is real.

You get a check from someone you don't know for 20 dollars....

Dear Athenia, people really There is a big diffrence between crazy plans that could work and plans that could fail.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Cheops)
Apart from my opinions on how the team screwed up here's why I think the bomb was a good idea:

1. Some corps are more comfortable with magic than tech. Dido for some of the other players in the shadows.

2. Signal scanners, MAD scanners, chemical scanners, and other cheap sensors can detect a technological trigger. Any of them can do a good job for around 1000 nuyen. The case would have to be smuggled past at least 2 of these if the target has low to moderate security.


Dude, in 2070 everyhting has a computer. Everything has wireless shit. They can't block all signels.They don't even want to. Further more it is highly unlikely for them to scan all the hardware ine very package.The less of scaning it would take to find a small computer chip in the brief case that says has a count down timed trigger to cause it go off at some time would find the fact that there is gas. So if theya re going to find the trigger, they would find the BOMB!
Cheops
My point is still valid. It doesn't matter that they can't detect every single wireless signal. The fact of the matter is that technology has always been easier to spot in SR than magic has. Period.
Ravor
One advantage that a magical trigger via Ritual Sorcery has over a 'normal' trigger is that you don't have to worry about your Runners being late if you use a timer, and don't have worry about getting close enough to transmit the detonation code. (And personally I agree that the odds of it getting hit by a combat spell by accident is about the same as being accidently triggered by a stray wireless single, which is to say almost null.)

Of course, I'm not saying that magical triggers should be common or anything, but I'm definently going to be stealing this idea for my campaign.
Cynic project
Magic trigger are cool. Magical triggers of this nature are not. If it was say dication spells. I could see it.If it was even manipulation I could. The ways I see it is the combat part not the spell part. the combat part is saying it will only trigger if things go fubar. Hell it is saying it will only trigger when things go FUBAR in one highly unlikely way.
Mistwalker
Hmm,
I don't see why they didn't just have a manual trigger
Use ritual sorcery to have magic fingers activate it.

I am a wee bit tired, but I am not seeing a reason why this would not work, and avoid premature detonation by security mage, or even wiz kid gang doing a drive by.
Ravor
You know, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying Cynic project, in my opinion it's a good thing that the trigger is highly unlikely to go off by accident before it was intended to, the entire point of the trigger is that the Runner's bosses could use Ritual Magic to trigger it when they wanted to, I very much doubt it was ever intended for the victims to trigger it by their actions.

Still Mistwalker has a very good point, it would have been more fool-proof to use a manual trigger via a Ritual Magic fingers, but even so as the OP has asked, how often does a briefcase get caught in a magical blast? I'm sure the answer is not very often at all.
Kesslan
Also keep in mind it's hardly unrealistic. Even experts make mistakes. Checkout the Darwin Awards some time. There's one guy who blew himself up with old TNT. And he was an ex demo expert. It's even a 'verified' story.

He had some old TNT that was bleeding nitro and for some reason decided to burry it in the ground. THe end result was, he basically created a landmine because when he started patting down the earth over it, it assumably caused the sticks to rub against each other and set off the as ever, highly unstable nitroglycerine (SP?) that had been 'bleeding' out of the TNT.

So I could well see a trigger being the requirement of some combat spell or other and maybe eevn some one said:

Corporate Master: 'Well what if X happens?'.

Corporate Mage: Oh well if that happens the targets are likely within the building anyway, so you wont have to pay them, and as an added bonus they get pegged as the terrorists, all the terrorists are dead. Which means no leads back to us!

Afterall some 'random drive by' by a ganger isnt bloody likely to involve magic. Keep in mind folks. Magic still is only used by 5% of the population by SR cannon. Thats a VERY small ammount. MOST are likely to be 'legitimate'. Eitehr entertainers, educators, wage mages etc. Maybe 5 percent of that 5 percent are likely to be 'illegal'. Runners, Gangers etc.
hyzmarca
Actually, you're looking at the statistics the wrong way. Magical talent is a genetic condition of unknown cause that can manifest in pretty much any individual. As such, it is unburdened by economic factors. As it would cut across economic lines quite easily, the percentage of poor SINless who are awakened should be equal to the percentage of wealthy SINers who are awakened. Being born SINless pretty much dooms one to a criminal occupation, although a lucky few escape that fate.
Magically inclined gangs will attract more magicians than other gangs, but no street gang can survive without at last minimal magical support. It would be crushed by magic-using gangs, otherwise. So yes, it is pretty likely that a driveby will involve magic. With magic, you don't even have to roll down the windows.
Kesslan
I'm not so sure I agree that their 'doomed to a criminal career' just because their born SINless.

Afterall, the corps, the government, the military, and all other 'powers that be' would assuming they had even an iota of intelligence, try to track down anyone who had magical abilities and recruit them. That said person was perhaps SINless and poor would have no bearing uppon it. INfact it could even be used as an incentive.

Thats right Jimmy. If you sign up with us for a minimum of ten years we'll not only train you to use your tallents, but we'll give you a high paying job, not to mention SINs for you and your whole family. THink about it. Your family will never have to go hungry again!

Military and Corpsec would likely recruit a great deal the same way that modern military does. Target the poor. Show em how 'for free' they can learn all these great skills and get paid to do all this 'fun/cool' stuff!

You just have to sign away your life for a few years is all. Not long at all! ANd hey if you want a colledge/university education? Guess what? For only a few more years of service ontop of that you get that for 'free' too!

While I have no doubt quite a few gifted SINless stay that way. I wouldnt bet on many of them staying that way. And certainly not poor. Of those that do there's guaranteed to be a high morality rate. Because if 'the enemy' doesnt get them, a few will be gotten by their 'friends' too. Friends like gang/mafia leaders worried that the guy is going to make a move on his powerbase.
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Hmm,
I don't see why they didn't just have a manual trigger
Use ritual sorcery to have magic fingers activate it.

I am a wee bit tired, but I am not seeing a reason why this would not work, and avoid premature detonation by security mage, or even wiz kid gang doing a drive by.

Plain and simple - I didn't think of that nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kesslan)
I'm not so sure I agree that their 'doomed to a criminal career' just because their born SINless.

Afterall, the corps, the government, the military, and all other 'powers that be' would assuming they had even an iota of intelligence, try to track down anyone who had magical abilities and recruit them. That said person was perhaps SINless and poor would have no bearing uppon it. INfact it could even be used as an incentive.

Thats right Jimmy. If you sign up with us for a minimum of ten years we'll not only train you to use your tallents, but we'll give you a high paying job, not to mention SINs for you and your whole family. THink about it. Your family will never have to go hungry again!

Military and Corpsec would likely recruit a great deal the same way that modern military does. Target the poor. Show em how 'for free' they can learn all these great skills and get paid to do all this 'fun/cool' stuff!

You just have to sign away your life for a few years is all. Not long at all! ANd hey if you want a colledge/university education? Guess what? For only a few more years of service ontop of that you get that for 'free' too!

While I have no doubt quite a few gifted SINless stay that way. I wouldnt bet on many of them staying that way. And certainly not poor. Of those that do there's guaranteed to be a high morality rate. Because if 'the enemy' doesnt get them, a few will be gotten by their 'friends' too. Friends like gang/mafia leaders worried that the guy is going to make a move on his powerbase.

The disproportionate number of magically active shadowrunners suggests that this is not true.

Every public school would test for magical talent; but, SINless children don't go to pulic schools. At the very best, they download pirates edusofts using their pirated matrix connection. Edusofts are probably more effective than public schooling, but there is really know way for the megacorps to measure the magical potential of every SINless kid in the barrens. Does that get discovered at the right age would be recruited, but people who are already entrenched in the criminal lifestyle when discovered will not be unless recruitment techniques involve cranial explosives.

The military is unlikely to accept SINless, even magically active SINless, for the same reason that the military doesn't accept illegal immigrants today. First, they're criminals and second, they could easily be spies because there is no way to document their true identity.
rs.
Garrowolf
hey if the hacker didn't have enough edge to burn then have him burn attributes points! Basically he gets out permanently maimed!

I think that he will buy up his edge next time.

Speaking of amusing screw ups

My old group had set up a meet where they told the other side ahead of time where to meet and gave them time to get in position. They had taken one of the members of the other side hostage and were going to bargin with them for information.
Of course the other side set up snipers and had a street sammy do the trade. The players decided to kill the hostage anyway and combat ensued. What was bad was the PC sammy went down immediately but unconscious not dead. The mage is caught out in the open with snipers across the street. He has no cover except the heavily armored sammie PC. So the mage manabolts back on his turn. I keep rolling for the snipers. They aren't using the best sniping equipment so don't get through his armor but I have a wonderful time turning to the player of the sammie and and telling him each time his body jumps from the impact.
Everyone though it was hilarious, especially the sammie player.
Kesslan
Hey, thats what samies are best at! Being a meat shield! Even if.. in this instance it was being taken a touch too litterally. rotfl.gif
Demerzel
Magically active SINless should be pressganged into lives of servitude performing enchanting services from the saftey of rigged to explode/gas the inmates if there is a extraction/chance of escape concentration camps.
Cheops
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 12 2007, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Jan 12 2007, 03:13 AM)
I'm not so sure I agree that their 'doomed to a criminal career' just because their born SINless.

Afterall, the corps, the government, the military, and all other 'powers that be' would assuming they had even an iota of intelligence, try to track down anyone who had magical abilities and recruit them.  That said person was perhaps SINless and poor would have no bearing uppon it. INfact it could even be used as an incentive.

Thats right Jimmy. If you sign up with us for a minimum of ten years we'll not only train you to use your tallents, but we'll give you a high paying job, not to mention SINs for you and your whole family. THink about it. Your family will never have to go hungry again!

Military and Corpsec would likely recruit a great deal the same way that modern military does. Target the poor. Show em how 'for free' they can learn all these great skills and get paid to do all this 'fun/cool' stuff!

You just have to sign away your life for a few years is all. Not long at all! ANd hey if you want a colledge/university education? Guess what? For only a few more years of service ontop of that you get that for 'free' too!

While I have no doubt quite a few gifted SINless stay that way. I wouldnt bet on  many of them staying that way. And certainly not poor. Of those that do there's guaranteed to be a high morality rate. Because if 'the enemy' doesnt get them, a few will be gotten by their 'friends' too. Friends like gang/mafia leaders worried that the guy is going to make a move on his powerbase.

The disproportionate number of magically active shadowrunners suggests that this is not true.

Every public school would test for magical talent; but, SINless children don't go to pulic schools. At the very best, they download pirates edusofts using their pirated matrix connection. Edusofts are probably more effective than public schooling, but there is really know way for the megacorps to measure the magical potential of every SINless kid in the barrens. Does that get discovered at the right age would be recruited, but people who are already entrenched in the criminal lifestyle when discovered will not be unless recruitment techniques involve cranial explosives.

The military is unlikely to accept SINless, even magically active SINless, for the same reason that the military doesn't accept illegal immigrants today. First, they're criminals and second, they could easily be spies because there is no way to document their true identity.
rs.

There's a very simple reason why there is a highly disproportionate amount of magically active runners...

THE RULES MAKE IT INSANELY EASY AND WORTHWHILE TO MAKE A MAGICALLY ACTIVE RUNNER

5-15 points for magical talent is very cheap. That's a 4% cost in power to be a Magic 1 wizard. 20% to have Magic 6. In SR3 you had to use Priority A, which is comparatively 50% (attributes), 54% (skills), or 13% (nuyen). So the opportunity cost of playing both a mage and a street sam have gone down in SR4.

Cost to Play in Terms of Starting Value Given Up

[code] SR3 SR4 Percent Saved SR4 BP Saved vs. Priority
Mage 39% 20% 19% 76
Money Character 39% 13% 26% 106

Wow, I really have to go back and rethink my idea of how street sams changed in SR4. Whereas in SR3 you had to spend A on money, and then at best had 27 points for attributes, now you get max money and max stats, plus a metahuman race if you want. Skills still suck but not as bad. Yikes.

No more mundane shadowrunners folks!

(Edit) P.S. how do you format tables in this.
P.P.S. F**k technology.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cheops)
how do you format tables in this.

CODE
Use the [code] tag.;)
Cynic project
QUOTE (Cheops)
[QUOTE=hyzmarca,Jan 12 2007, 10:07 AM]

THE RULES MAKE IT INSANELY EASY AND WORTHWHILE TO MAKE A MAGICALLY ACTIVE RUNNER

5-15 points for magical talent is very cheap. That's a 4% cost in power to be a Magic 1 wizard. 20% to have Magic 6. In SR3 you had to use Priority A, which is comparatively 50% (attributes), 54% (skills), or 13% (nuyen). So the opportunity cost of playing both a mage and a street sam have gone down in SR4.

Cost to Play in Terms of Starting Value Given Up

SR3 SR4 Percent Saved SR4 BP Saved vs. Priority
Mage 39% 20% 19% 76
Money Character 39% 13% 26% 106

Wow, I really have to go back and rethink my idea of how street sams changed in SR4. Whereas in SR3 you had to spend A on money, and then at best had 27 points for attributes, now you get max money and max stats, plus a metahuman race if you want. Skills still suck but not as bad. Yikes.

No more mundane shadowrunners folks!

(Edit) P.S. how do you format tables in this.

Or it could be the fact that non magical things have limits.Magical things don't...
Cheops
Let me put it this way. In SR3 mages had to give up more "points" in the priority system than street sams in order to get their magical ability. This made it more expensive to play a mage than anything else in SR3. Now in SR4 the cost in terms of what you have to give up to play a mage has gone WAY down. As a result you are going to see more people play mages as they intuitively realize that magic is cheaper than it was in previous editions.

A similar thing happened with the BP system in the SR3 Companion. Mage characters could end up with "more" than they could get through the priority system by using BPs. The trick was to nerf skills and max everything else. This gave you more points relative to what you would have had as a priority build. As a result the cost of a mage in terms of what you give up went down so you tended to see more mages with a BP system.

This is why the m/pm/a/tm qualities all have the tag that players should only be allowed to play one if they plan on pursuing that path.
Ophis
The problem with cost comparison from SR3 to SR4 for mages is problematic, as the package you bought as a mage is SR3 came with quite a bit that it doesn't come with in SR4.

Mage in SR3 gets magic 6, plus 25 force points (converts to 6 spells at 4) for 25 BP(iirc) okay thats about a quater of your points then lets add in sorcey and conjuring at 6 for a total of about 40 points. Thats more or less a third of you points for a fairly good mage.

Mage in SR4 pays 15 points get 1 magic and the abilities he needs. Then he has to pay 40 points for magic 5 (here i approximate it's hard to say whats equal across the two systems but we're going for effective all rounder). add in 80 ponts for Sorcery and Conjuring groups at 4 and 6 spells at 3 each and you've payed out. Thats 153 points. More than a third on a standard build, and about a third compared of 450 Bp which is what i use as an equivalent to old 125 point SR3 characters.

Okay you can tinker a lot more in SR4 than you used to be able to do but hey i like that. But claim magic cost stupendously less than it used to is not really true.
Ravor
Aye, but it sure seems like it costs less even though it really doesn't. However, I agree with 'Cynic project' on this one, it seems that an Cyber/Adept can hit a higher Dice Cap then either a pure Adept or a pure Cyber, so I think that is the reason more people seem to like Awakened characters in 4th Edition.

Which is why I make use of the Tag that all the Awakened Qualities come with about only allowing people who intend on being Awakened to buy them and not any Tom, Dick & Harry simply looking to score a few more dice. (As a disclaimer, no I'm not saying that I don't allow Awakened characters to use Cyber in my games, just that I discourage people who I think are only in it for the extra dice, and it does seem to cut down the ammount of Awakened as most of them happily play slightly more rounded Street Sams with 1-2 less dice for their primary attack.)
Demerzel
So it's true that given enough time any thread will devolve into an argument that magic is overpowered, vs. HMGs have no drain.
Kesslan
QUOTE (Cheops)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 12 2007, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Jan 12 2007, 03:13 AM)
I'm not so sure I agree that their 'doomed to a criminal career' just because their born SINless.

Afterall, the corps, the government, the military, and all other 'powers that be' would assuming they had even an iota of intelligence, try to track down anyone who had magical abilities and recruit them.  That said person was perhaps SINless and poor would have no bearing uppon it. INfact it could even be used as an incentive.

Thats right Jimmy. If you sign up with us for a minimum of ten years we'll not only train you to use your tallents, but we'll give you a high paying job, not to mention SINs for you and your whole family. THink about it. Your family will never have to go hungry again!

Military and Corpsec would likely recruit a great deal the same way that modern military does. Target the poor. Show em how 'for free' they can learn all these great skills and get paid to do all this 'fun/cool' stuff!

You just have to sign away your life for a few years is all. Not long at all! ANd hey if you want a colledge/university education? Guess what? For only a few more years of service ontop of that you get that for 'free' too!

While I have no doubt quite a few gifted SINless stay that way. I wouldnt bet on  many of them staying that way. And certainly not poor. Of those that do there's guaranteed to be a high morality rate. Because if 'the enemy' doesnt get them, a few will be gotten by their 'friends' too. Friends like gang/mafia leaders worried that the guy is going to make a move on his powerbase.

The disproportionate number of magically active shadowrunners suggests that this is not true.

Every public school would test for magical talent; but, SINless children don't go to pulic schools. At the very best, they download pirates edusofts using their pirated matrix connection. Edusofts are probably more effective than public schooling, but there is really know way for the megacorps to measure the magical potential of every SINless kid in the barrens. Does that get discovered at the right age would be recruited, but people who are already entrenched in the criminal lifestyle when discovered will not be unless recruitment techniques involve cranial explosives.

The military is unlikely to accept SINless, even magically active SINless, for the same reason that the military doesn't accept illegal immigrants today. First, they're criminals and second, they could easily be spies because there is no way to document their true identity.
rs.

There's a very simple reason why there is a highly disproportionate amount of magically active runners...

THE RULES MAKE IT INSANELY EASY AND WORTHWHILE TO MAKE A MAGICALLY ACTIVE RUNNER

5-15 points for magical talent is very cheap. That's a 4% cost in power to be a Magic 1 wizard. 20% to have Magic 6. In SR3 you had to use Priority A, which is comparatively 50% (attributes), 54% (skills), or 13% (nuyen). So the opportunity cost of playing both a mage and a street sam have gone down in SR4.

Cost to Play in Terms of Starting Value Given Up

[code] SR3 SR4 Percent Saved SR4 BP Saved vs. Priority
Mage 39% 20% 19% 76
Money Character 39% 13% 26% 106

Wow, I really have to go back and rethink my idea of how street sams changed in SR4. Whereas in SR3 you had to spend A on money, and then at best had 27 points for attributes, now you get max money and max stats, plus a metahuman race if you want. Skills still suck but not as bad. Yikes.

No more mundane shadowrunners folks!

(Edit) P.S. how do you format tables in this.
P.P.S. F**k technology.

Not to mention one other little fact. Being SINLess does NOT make you a criminal.

It makes you a non person. You simply dont exist untill you have a SIN. And if you really wanted one that badily you can get it. So the Military not taking on SINless really doesnt fly. The process might take abit longer but their still likely to take a few chances and cut corners while they do a proper background check.

It's the same way it works in todays world in respect to background checks. It's not foolproof, but it's a pretty reliable indicator most of the time. Also keep in mind by SR cannon Magic users are -rare-. RARE.

The fact that their not in TT is purely because people want to play an awakened character and can by the system. And if your running into tons of awakened folk all the time in the games. THats purely becuase the GM has altered the game to be that way. By cannon you really shouldnt be running into them -that- often. You hit em abit more often with the corps, but thats because thats where the talent is concentrated. It's the corps that offer the big cash, the big incentives, the big rewards. Not to mention alot of the training and R&D in those same fields.

I'm not by any means saying your not going to have -any- criminal awakened. Sure you'll have quite a few. Their still (meta)humans for the most part at elast for the part were talking about they all are. But ultimately if they actually worked with their talent. They are -not- going to be super hard up for cash if they really had the drive not to be or some outside circumstances (like the desire for revenge or what ever) doesnt drive em that way.

The corps will take on tallented ex criminals. They do it alot infact. And I seriously doubt the military in SR is any different. They have to be able to compete, and compitition is fierce. It's even supported by cannon material. I mean look how many 'ex runner deckers' pop up in cannon material. You get the same with awakened. They wont be trusted as much, they migh tnot get as far as some one who's allways been law abiding but they can be MUCH MUCH better off than if they'd stuck to a life of crime.

A few others however are 'exceptional' in their abilities, and really are better off on their own. And legally or illegally they will be. Some will have a life as dictated. Others stick to a way of life because it's the only life they ever know. It's why corps have arcologies. Employees are less likely to run away becuase they dont know how to survive outside the corp.

Keep in mind shadowrunners are ultimately those more 'elite' magic types too. Their -professionals-. And they make very good money usually, or at least certainly stand to. And they'd stick to their jobs for the same reason a high paid wage mage does. Cause even once they can afford to retire they probably just love the job. Or there's some other motivator at work. (Or hell they could just really suck with their finances and have only as much money as the past two weeks income in the bank)

So yeah while the military and corps dont -actively- test all the barrens kids etc. It doesnt take much for word to get round of some guy slinging mojo. And if the tallent is big enough you can bet -some one- be it the military, the corps, dragons, underwold figures who ever the bigger fish are, are going to at least make some offers.

It's just like why the corps will some times bust runners and then instead of geeking them instead say 'Look, you guys fragged up. So we'll give you a chance to make right if you work for us instead'.

They might still stick a kink bomb in your head but they'll still use you and probalby pay you too. I mean even the Miltary hires criminals IRL (not all of em but it does happen and it has happened, especially in times of war). And you can bet any magically active criminal that winds up in prison will eventually be taged as magically active unless tehir really good with masking. Thats also not the kinda tallen your likely to find on some juvie. And SR still has prisons and 'rehabilitation' for young offenders. Any that wind up in there that are magically active are also likelyt o get a severe lean on to join up with some one.

Say.. kid. You want to spend another 5 years in this hole? Or cut a sweet deal and get out tomorrow with just a few restrictions?

Sure you dont get all the ones that fall between the cracks but one way or another I'm pretty damn sure the -majority- of them at some point or another at least get an offer, or two, or more. I mean by SR cannon there's even folk who dont find out for years or even their entire life that they were awakened. ANd that sort of thing is only really possible of you don thave crazy loads of other awakened folk running round. YOu have quite a few but you really cant take the fact that all the players are playing awakened characters to be a portrayal of the 'usual' team.

They would infact very much be a big exception to the rule. Most runner teams dont even -have- magical backup of their own. They might contract out to a 'specialist' now and then. And the teams that have a good shot at the 'big time' usually do have at least one awakened on the team. But that still isnt -really- the norm.

Alot of folk just assume it is because so many PCs are. But again PCs are 'exceptional'. Their that 5 percent of the 8 billion + population.
Abbandon
Burn Edge-

Lightning ball causes a fire. the fire sets off the sprinklers immedeately. The water from the sprinklers messes up the toxin and the guy lives.
Rotbart van Dainig
You don't really need to explain a burned Edge Point - it's something that should make anyone wonder.
Some times it's even better not to do so, because the explanation (like this one) might just not hold.
Butterblume
You don't need to, but it's cool when you can think of something plausible on the fly.

I like Abbandons explanation, because it might just work.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Butterblume)
I like Abbandons explanation, because it might just work.

Like the original question, it doesn't work because of the time needed...
Mistwalker
I will continue with the thread jacking.

Military would have no problem recruiting SINless magically active, specially the young. A few Mind Probes, some while awake, some while asleep, and you know if they are legit or not. Same for the corps, come down to it.
odinson
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
On the last mission my players took, the PCs were supposed to plant a suitcase full of 7-7 gas inside a corporate building. The Johnson told them that the suitcase had incriminating evidence that Lonestar would find during an upcoming raid. What the Johnson didn't tell them was that the suitcase was full of 7-7 gas and was designed to release enough gas to kill anyone inside of the building after being triggered by a combat spell. Lonestar was never actually intended to find anything but dead employees. Anyway, the PCs got caught sneaking inside the building and were shot up pretty badly. The group mage had the brilliant idea to pull a kamikaze by throwing a force 12 ball lightning in the middle of the combat, which would catch all the security he could see, as well as the team EXCEPT for one PC. Unfortunately the suitcase was being held by one of the PCs caught in the ball lightning so it released the 7-7 gas, killing the PC outside the ball lightning.

Here's the problem - the player of the PC killed by the 7-7 thinks that ball lightning of that magnitude should have rendered the 7-7 gas inert. I said no, but agreed to post here to see everyone's opinion.

My players did something similar on the last run hey were on to. There was no briefcase full of gas, they were in a crowded dinner gathering clues when some goons started a fist fight. The mage resented being kicked across the room by a phys-ad and decided to lay down a force 10 powerball. The mage and the Sammy were the only ones who resisted the spell, the hacker was right on the threshold of death, 1 more box and she was gone, and their phys-ad was just as bad. Good thing the sammy excels at first aid and medicine. Now there are numerous people after them, I don't think they will live much longer.
Athanatos
When spending edge whatever happened to the "You wake up stark naked in the middle of nowhere, covered in strange blue goo??? devil.gif

And the trigger ward Idea sounds alot like what one could do with an anchored spell that is masked. Heavily masked. And Wrapped in duct tape, there's always a need for duct tape 2070 style lol. vegm.gif
Demon_Bob
Ok! Where I can understand the explanation of, "The combat spell distroyes the protective seal keeping the gas inside the container." It seems that other types of attacks should also produce simular effects.

The plan to release the gass sounds complex and the items in question needed to enable such a plan should be somewhat rare enabling a limited search, and decreasing suspects dramatically. The tricky part might be identifying the unknown substance.

Because wireless shielding is easy to come by. (It is available in paint form.) then having the gass explosive shielded would not be a problem. A initial charge to blow out the side of the case to allow the gas to escape or perhaps ejecting the device, followed by a secondary explosion to release the gass, all controlled by a timer, seems a more plausible route. This route would also increase the number of suspects.

The amount and importance of people in the building, the believed possibility for repeat occurences, and social impact of event, would help determine the priority level of the investigation.
Shrike30
I'd have exposed the players to a "partial dose" of the 7-7... it's causing health effects and requiring them to seek specialized medical care, but flatlining them is waaaay less fun than having one of the players essentially hand you a couple of hours of gameplay on a platter.

"Okay, the cops are chasing you with sirens blaring, you're all coughing, vomiting, and spasming, the driver of your car is blind, and a tracer round just set the engine on fire. It occurs to you that you might want to ditch the getaway car and find a street doc.

Odinson: I can imagine that most characters in the 2070s would respond to a mage doing that about as well as they'd respond to the group's demolition expert throwing a satchel charge into the room everyone's still inside of. The mage is the one who's astral signature is all over the powerball blast responsible for 8 deaths in a diner... turning him over to the cops (bullet in the back of the head optional) would handle an awful lot of their problems, and he did just nearly kill the entire team after getting involved in a fistfight that wasn't even part of the mission.
knasser
The magical trigger idea sounds quite elegant once you get into the details of it. Walk it straight past electronic sensors, metal detectors, etc., astral signature will fade long before the medical crews have finished and it's unusual enough that it will also be a while before people think to look for such a thing. And you can trigger it at time of choice in WiFi free areas, too. You'd also assume that if it's targetted by a direct combat spell that the team's cover is blown and you might as well achieve what you can and also get rid of some potential leads (the PCs) at the same time.

The only one at fault here seems to be the mage who cast a Force 12 Ball Lightening that covered the party. What was he thinking? Even aside from the likelihood of killing his team mates, there was the 11P drain. The 7-7 gas is clearly the least of the problems in this scenario. Assuming that this is a new player, then I would probably as GM, paused to take the player through the likely effects of casting the spell, but I wasn't there and maybe this was done or not wanted.

But Force 12 Ball Lightening... *holds face in hands*
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