Nice threadnapping.

CD has the official answers to the question 'Why are Shadowrunners needed'.

It depends on your interpretation of astral movement but it's arguably possible to lose an astral tail by moving faster than the mage's "walking" rate.

When the mage is moving at superspeed he has to "imagine" himself at the location and then travels so fast he can't perceive his environment while travelling.

So if you travel faster than his astral "walking speed" and in an erratic fashion that prevent him from anticipating your trajectory and thus keep projecting at a point you will have to cross, you could lose the tail.

It used to be an easier prospect in SR3... Now the "walking" speed is 100 meter/turn! It an even more drastic increase in speed than that of the running troll!

Still, some vehicle can move substantially faster so what you need is great rigger that can drive at break neck speed in an urban environment. It probably helps to quickly heads toward one of the barrens ; less electronic coverage and higher magical background.

You might even cultivate some contact amongst a wizgang and drive toward them if you fail to shake the tail.

You could also set up ambushes if you plan your escape route ahead. If you run through a tunnel you can predict exactly where your potential tail would have to go trough and you could have set up a surprise ahead of time (Kind of expensive in or karma depending on what you planned). A variant is to drive to an area that you could have cased with astral barrier ahead of time, an area where you can swiftly change vehicles and that has some traffic.

I lost you somewhere in the alphabet soup of that last post.

I guess "This game is stupid anyway." - while a gross simplification - is the way I feel about Shadowrun's universe (I like the mechanics).

As for the rest, there was some discussion going on regarding corporate teams by people other than myself (this was the A vs. B thing), so I'm not quite the only one talking about a variation from the norm.

All of that has a good chance of shaking astral pursuit, but consider that:

There is one surefire way to escape astral pursuit: use a suborbital.

diving into a body of water large enough to pop up somwhere out of sight could help as well.

All right kids, everybody's talking and arguing about corporate cooperation. This was address in Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations." Allow me to summarize, as I agree with him.

Businesses could very easily control society by cooperating to keep prices high and wages low. Thus, every business makes more profit. However ...

They are too dishonest to do that. Even if they made such an agreement, someone will lower prices just a little bit to bring in customers. Someone would raise their wages just a little bit more to bring in better workers. Then the others would respond by raising their wages or lowering their prices.

Now, let's bring this into Shadowrun. Ares makes guns. Lone Star patrols the streets. Wuxing deals in transport and talismongering. NeoNET handles the Matrix. Renraku makes software, hardware and security.

Ultimately, these corps need denialbe assets; both as people to do the dirty work and as customers.

Someone else said it, but it bears repeating: corps will screw each other over for money, even if they are not in direct competition. At the very least, when another corp is hit, "Not my problem," is the phrase that fits.

yes , "if", in which case, the "fleer" could counter the same way, assuming they're of a tradition that can summon water elementals/spirits and has one bound.

If you just want to talk about straight out running somewhere there are two safe bets in Seattle--the Glow Zone and the Ork Underground.

I almost always end up with a Malcolm Ork wannabe who takes OU contacts and the Glow is easy to deal with if you are anticipating fleeing there. Most cities in SR seem to have an area that makes mages cringe thinking about going in there.

Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence for escaping astral tracking?

FWIW, the norm here is to use one post regardless of the number of points you're addressing. While it's not a "rule", people aren't likely to miss your responses due to your post being long (in case you're worried about it).

You guys don't have to defend your use of super-cars (and, super-tricked out weapons I'll bet). You just have a different style of play than I do. In my game, you would suffer for taking actions that would stand out like that, but you're not in my game.

Like I said in another thread, we scrap equipment and make sure we get paid enough to replace it. Dropping/swapping SINs doesn't amount to squat if they still recognize your signature equipment. It's not like they can't correlate information. I also assume that the 'average' investigator is pretty damn good at their job - many people prefer that corps/cops/whatever are bumbling idiots, but we don't play that way.

Here is my take on it. How many people take their uberwagen out grocery shopping? Having an identifiable, unique vehicle isn't necessarily bad. However you also sometimes need discrete and/or disposable transportation. That is why two of my groups PCs learned to do the "gone in 60 seconds" thing. Of course car-jacking is always an option, but not really subtle.

My PCs find themselves in lots of situations. Some need chrome, some need speed, some need brains, and some just need style and tact. They seem to have developed the knack of using high-end custom gear when needed and knowing when to use disposable gear and leave their precious valuables home.

As for signature equipment, anybody savvy enough to notice that usually has your Modus Operandi down well enough that the disposability of your gear isn't a big issue.

I don't think that the law enforcement would necessarily have to be bumbling idiots, but they would be over-worked. Certain details would probably get lost in the no-man's land of information swamping the investigators. Unless the characters do something particularly grandiose, there's an even chance at just getting lost in the shuffle.

Agreed. But the number of cases each of those teams has to work would also go up exponentially. Just population increase alone would double the average workload of an investigator, add in all the new types of crime: magic-based, mindrape, etc, and that's a lot of cases to spread around. Even the best can get worn down.

This exact issue was something I had trouble with in my first game session and I put the game away for the next 4 years. I made a subtle face-like computer expert (not a decker, though, and couldn't deal with IC) but who was really good at finding and manipulating public information, had BBS boards as contacts, and had all of the skills and equipment necessary to make basic fake SINs. He was also very good at deception and getting information out of people, one way or the other. My concept was that he was a brilliant investigator and economist working for a corporation. Stuff went wrong that I won't go into, and he fled to another country for awhile where he bribed a gang for protection. After five years of living in the streets, he's come back to Seattle looking to get revenge against those that ruined his life. He's not a street sam. He's not a decker. His best weapon is a pistol and I had to be talked by the GM into giving him some basic armor, and I took the time to read the cover rules very careful with the idea that I would play smart and subtle to keep this guy alive.

Another character built his street sam with a luxery lifestyle. We collaberated for a little bit and decided I worked for him as the head of his estate, using my information-gathering abilities to keep him out of trouble. He was running for governor and the last thing he needed was his "secret" getting out in public.

The third player decided to play a freelance combat mage with a squatter lifestyle. We didn't really have much use for him. I tried to talk him into living on the estate, but he refused.

I really loved this pair of characters and was really looking forward to the game, although I didn't really know the rules very well beyond reading Virtual Realities 2.0 (my first Shadowrun book).

You can guess what this game was like. It was hell on the GM, and he refused to play anymore after the first session and the type of game that was run made no sense for out characters whatsoever, and I was really looking forward to getting my patron elected to Governor as the longterm campaign plot.

We basically handed the GM a rich powerful little setting with highly developed characters, tons of plot hooks, and got spit back at us because it "wasn't Shadowrun". But it was; or rather, it could have been. That could have been an awesome game; but the players and GM weren't on the same page.

It's important to be open to different styles and to understand how things work within the "rules" under a given style.

I'm thinking of constructing a Fallout Phase of the game to manage downtime a little better for my game. Players could choose one action per week of downtime after the conclusion of a run, such as "Healing", "Training", "Socializing", "Working", "Research", etc. In addition, the GM may roll fallout actions for each week that passes in downtime for major factions or important characters that the players are still contending with, most notably Lone Star.

I haven't playtested any of this yet.


Mentat Analysts
GM Fallout Action
Lone Star has special analysts whose only job is to sift through tons of data. Their brains work as mental filters that can link seemingly irrelevant data together to form a grand puzzle, showing them a glimpse of the big picture. Like diviners of old would stare at old runes or crystal balls, these masters of information spend days studying crime reports, news feed, and surveillance information, letting it seep into their brain to form a big picture.

Choose one recent shadowrun. Add up the total Notoriety scores of all runners involved in that run and roll that many dice. Subtract one die for each "Low" or "High" lifestyle or two dice for each "Street" or "Luxury" lifestyle.

The number of hits equals "exposure" for the character with the lowest lifestyle. Reduce the character's highest rating fake SIN by a number of rating points equal to the "exposure" result. If the fake SIN falls to 0 rating or less, the character is "Arrested". If arrested, All Fake SINs are destroyed, and the character gets a Criminal SIN and a point of Notoriety.


Field Investigators
GM Fallout Action
Lone Star has a powerful network of eyes and ears throughout the streets and their expert investigators have some rather exotic methods of finding out what people know. Add to that a healthy dose of intimidation and interrogation, and they can follow a path right out to you as easily as any Mr Johnson can.

Choose one recent shadowrun, and one runner that was running it. Add up the "Connections" ratings of all contacts he knows. Add up the "Loyalty" of all contacts and subtract this total from the total Connections. Roll this many dice.

The number of hits equals "exposure" for this character with the lowest lifestyle. Reduce the character's highest rating fake SIN by a number of rating points equal to the "exposure" result. If the fake SIN falls to 0 rating or less, the character is "Arrested". If arrested, All Fake SINs are destroyed, and the character gets a Criminal SIN and a point of Notoriety.

In addition, the character must immediately discard one contact with a Loyalty rating lower than the amount of hits that were scored.



Interrogation
Intimidating psychopaths, electric chairs, addictive stimulants, lie detectors, detection spells, bound spirits, bad breath... you name any interrogation tool you can think of and Lone Star's got it. And now they've got you, too...

This action can only be taken if one of the players is currently "Arrested". Roll an opposed interrogation check against that character. The number of hits equals "exposure" for one of the character's companions. The player can choose which of his fellow runners takes the exposure.

The player can add dice to the GM's interrogation roll to receive a bonus to the bribery check of his next "Arrested" action. The amount of dice given can not exceed the character's Charisma.

Reduce the selected character's highest rating fake SIN by a number of rating points equal to the "exposure" result. If that character's fake SIN falls to 0 rating or less, the character is "Arrested". If arrested, All Fake SINs are destroyed, and the character gets a Criminal SIN and a point of Notoriety.



Arrested
Player Fallout Action

A character that has been arrested by Lone Star must take no fallout actions, except Arrested actions. When a character is rested, he begins with a Red Tape score of 4.

A character's Red Tape score is the threshold for any Bribery checks he makes. Success indicates he is no longer arrested. If an interrogation was conducted this turn, and the character gave voluntary dice to the GM for the interrogation check, he may add that number of dice to his bribery check.

Roll a number of dice equal to the character's Notoriety plus Red Tape. Any hits increase Red Tape by that amount. When Red Tape equals 10, he has been turned over to Corporate interests. The character is effectively gone from play at this point.

Prior to this, other players may attempt to bail out that character. The GM is encouraged to provide the players with sample opportunities to extract that character without a full assault on Lone Star's jail, such as an opportunity strike against a prisoner transfer vehicle, a court trial, community service, etc. Finding out enough information to conduct such a raid requires standard use of legwork rules, using Red Tape as a threshold.

HappyDaze, A few questions and observations.

1) Why is organized crime still flourishing now? Why haven't the governments eradicated it? Why hasn't the US gov raised, trained a bunch of Colombians to do a massive, one day strike against the leaderships of the Cartels, a one day blitz where they kill everyone in the houses, production centers, etc...
The resources are there, they could do it. But it hasn't happened. I think that it won't happen either. The same for Corps being able to stamp out all the independants.

2) If your "Zeros" are loyal only due to cortex bombs, are badly treated, then you are setting yourself up for several falls.
- Some corps will have their zeros go after those cortex bombs codes, and voila, your 200+ zeros are all dead, and you are at least 2 years away from having new zeros.
- Your zeros would spend a fair bit of time and effort to find their cortex bomb codes, to change them, so that they don't work, but that they know when someone tried to kill them. These are armed and dangerous people, you made them so, and if they have a hate on for you, and nothing to lose, you are going to get hurt (even if it is only lost resources).
- Who watches your zeros, to make sure that they stay loyal, behave, etc...

3) It is a gentleman's game, only as long as everyone plays by the rules.
- Joe, zero team controller, has just had his two kids killed by another corps zero team, they were collateral damage. Let's say that he wasn't married to the woman, who was married to someone else. No link from Joe to the kids. Joe wants revenge. He knows which corp did it, so sends in his zero team to take out as much of the board of directors of the other corps. Other corp survivors "know" which zeros hit them, and a war has started.

4) The freelancers would get their training from organized crime, or governements. Smiling Vito got greedy and the Capo had him killed. You were part of Smiling Vito's entourage, so you move on to greener pastures before the Capo can look your way. Or, you are a special operative in the government. Last of went bad, you were betrayed, or not backed up, or left for dead, etc... You are now a freelancer.

5) How would the Corps know where and who the freelancers are? If they are lending out their zeros to smaller corps to keep costs down.... And who says that the zero team handler is reporting all loaner missions to his bosses?

6) Corps are not unified behind their own management. So how can you say that they will be unified amongst themselves.

7) It is cheaper to use freelancers than it is to have zero or corp teams. No training, gear, medical, death benifits cost, nor are you paying them while they are not working.

Had more, but it's time to feed the baby.

You know, a quick question for whomever it was that suggested that if a corp needed Zeroes that they didn't have themselves they would sub-contract the job out to another Corp, perhaps even one that specializes in Shadowruns, how exactly is such a Corp any different then a Fixer that uses a stable of Freelance talent?

Also, to echo a point already mentioned, exactly where are the smaller Corps who can't really afford the expense of these Zero Teams going to go when they need a Shadowrun done?

Where is the Mob, Triads, ect going to go?

Or how about your friendly eco-terrorist group down the street?

What about the corrupt city offical or even a company man looking to shove his way up the corperate ladder?

Now don't get me wrong, I fully believe that the Megas should and do keep at least a few highly trained Black-Op Teams on hand for the most secure jobs, but I think that it is extremely silly to think that the Megas would waste their time and money by sending the best of the best on your typical Shadowrun or would spend the money necessary to waste any Freelance Talent that the various non-Mega Players would need to tap whenever they needed a Shadowrun done. (And if you think that the smaller players would trust a Mega with something like asking to borrow one of their Zero Teams, then I think you need to rethink human nature.)

So much talk about hunting down freelancers. Sorry if this has been brought up before, but:
What are the conditions that would make someone skilled enough to hunt the runners down actually want to do so? If someone shoots your friend, you go after the person who shot your friend, not the gun they used.
Just to clarify, in this analogy the runners are the gun. They are a tool. The enemy corporation is the shooter, they're the ones with motive.
If runners steal your valuable prototype, you chase them like hell until they hand the prototype over to the Johnson. Then why would you kill them? What do you gain? Even if you find them they don't know who they were working for, that's the point of the Johnson. So what do you do if you find them? Hire them for your next run, of course; they're obviously skilled!
The only time a corp has a reason to hunt runners down is if they have reason to believe that a particular group of runners is targeting them specifically.
LS isn't hunting runners for antics pulled on AA property, because the AAs don't report it.
LS only gets involved if it's small-time runners running against smaller corps, or if the violence spills out into the streets.
LS has limited resources, and they have a contract, so say they have two sets of criminals that they know about and need to catch. One set is some small-time idiot who shot somebody or knocked over a liquor store and made the news. The other is a group of runners who hit a AAA facility, which never made the news and was never reported by the corp, who doesn't want to admit any losses. They go after the idiot who made the news, because that's what will get their contract renewed.

If you're running a terrorist campaign, or you're driving down public streets using heavy ordnance you're damn well going to have someone hunting you down.
But between extraterritoriality keeping all the best information away from Lone Star, and the "nothing personal" aspect of most shadowruns, there is very little benefit to be had by finding most runners.