Say a team gets noticed or triggers an alarm while they're inside a corp facility.
The corp's responds by dispatching a physical response team that will take minutes to arrive and can be dealt with by the whole team. Standard fare, not a problem.
However, in addition, the corp dispatches a few mages in astral form to track the intruders and make sure they don't get away. Due to astral travel speeds, the mages can be there in seconds, and no one except full magicians can do anything at all to them.
The runner team has one mage. It looks like the options are
1) The runner mage takes on all of the corp mages by herself.
2) The team has surveillance on them that they can't ditch or fight, and it can be used to keep sending physical teams at them (e.g. one of the mages runs back and forth to a corp facility to report their location).
If the team's mage can't take on the corp mages alone, what can the team do about this situation?
I suppose they could try to hide out somewhere the mages couldn't follow, but what kind of places would work? Some other corp's facility that has heavy astral security? Doesn't sound like a good option. Or some building that has very powerful wards? Again, I can't think of any that would be publicly accessible. And the mages could just hang out overhead and probably pick up the runners again when they leave.
Any other thoughts on what the team could do about it?
Full Version: Astral surveillance
Go where the funny toxic spirits hang out. 
The best thing, of course, is to find out about the level of astral security beforehand, and only take jobs you can manage.
It's not so much different with the physical security. If they are too good for you, you are in trouble.
Bye
Thanee
The best thing, of course, is to find out about the level of astral security beforehand, and only take jobs you can manage.
It's not so much different with the physical security. If they are too good for you, you are in trouble.
Bye
Thanee
Yes, they could duck into a warded building, and leave by another exit or in a vehicle. Astral mages would not be able to see them if they were in a vehicle, unless they checked out every vehicle.
The PC mage could just summon some of his bound spirits, tell them to attack the astral mages.
You could go into a place with serious astral problems/background count.
Or places where there are dual creatures, preferably nasty ones.
Or you could duck into a sewer, once the astral mages are there, trap them with somekind of FAB (or other such thing). Or just drop part of the sewers on them, as they can't use astral speed if encased in mother earth. They may even die if they get lost trying to get out.
The PC mage could just summon some of his bound spirits, tell them to attack the astral mages.
You could go into a place with serious astral problems/background count.
Or places where there are dual creatures, preferably nasty ones.
Or you could duck into a sewer, once the astral mages are there, trap them with somekind of FAB (or other such thing). Or just drop part of the sewers on them, as they can't use astral speed if encased in mother earth. They may even die if they get lost trying to get out.
...this is why you have a Nega-Mage on the team (see: House Rule: Nega Mage thread).
The common (security) wagemage will have pretty average stats. Runner mages tend to be at the higher end of the scale...
The same way as evading everything else - Stealth skills.
A Mage can only astrally project for Magic hours before dying. Stay on the move. What do you expect these mages to do? They will follow you and if you don't stop in one location long enough for them to send a response then they can't really send a response.
How are these mages communicating with base? I can assure you they're not using their comlink focus. Did they take the time to cast a mind link spell. How will they know where you are, their GPS foci won't be working either. So even if they could communicate back to someone they can't say you're at the corner of first and 1st, etc.
You've got all the advantages of technology on your side as well, so you can call all your contacts and get a variety of assistance depending on the situation. There's lots of options. But basically you can live for days constatntly on the move, 5 minutes at a stuffer shack isn't gonna bring corp goons on you and you can eat. They on the other hand are dead if they stay astrall for any longer than their Magic attribute in hours.
How are these mages communicating with base? I can assure you they're not using their comlink focus. Did they take the time to cast a mind link spell. How will they know where you are, their GPS foci won't be working either. So even if they could communicate back to someone they can't say you're at the corner of first and 1st, etc.
You've got all the advantages of technology on your side as well, so you can call all your contacts and get a variety of assistance depending on the situation. There's lots of options. But basically you can live for days constatntly on the move, 5 minutes at a stuffer shack isn't gonna bring corp goons on you and you can eat. They on the other hand are dead if they stay astrall for any longer than their Magic attribute in hours.
Your mage could also spend a minnute or two erasing his the magic sig's he's left behind then the party leaves before they arrive, nothing to track astrally complete and clean break.
The party would leave BEFORE the physical team arrives and the mage would cover his astral trail.
Astral Tracking is more then just flying around behind them, if you lose sight you have to make rolls and have an astral trail to follow and its not hard for a mage to erase his astral signature.
Say they have two mages following them. One leaves to report back the groups location. The second gets his astral form knocked out by the PC's mage.
A summoned spirit could delay the mage long enougth for the PC to make a clean break.
The party would leave BEFORE the physical team arrives and the mage would cover his astral trail.
Astral Tracking is more then just flying around behind them, if you lose sight you have to make rolls and have an astral trail to follow and its not hard for a mage to erase his astral signature.
Say they have two mages following them. One leaves to report back the groups location. The second gets his astral form knocked out by the PC's mage.
A summoned spirit could delay the mage long enougth for the PC to make a clean break.
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| Go where the funny toxic spirits hang out. The best thing, of course, is to find out about the level of astral security beforehand, and only take jobs you can manage. It's not so much different with the physical security. If they are too good for you, you are in trouble. |
The things that I see as different from physical security are:
1) Of the runners, only mages can do anything at all about it. Instead of the entire team being able to deal with it, it's limited to often only one character's abilities.
2) Physical security from a remote location takes minutes to arrive. Astral security takes seconds. A corp could maintain a central stable of mages and dispatch them where needed, so basically every corp facility can have heavy astral security with no incremental cost to the corp.
It can still be dealt with, but it seems like a situation that's much more heavily stacked against the runners.
Also, if astral security is easier and more effective for corps (because it can be centralized), then it starts to shift things to the point where a runner team is only as good as its mages, which would be unfortunate.
The options I can think of to mitigate it are:
1) Figure out a way for runners to deal with astral surveillance without having to defeat the spying mages directly.
2) Just say (as GM) that corps tend not to use centrally-dispatched astral security. If it would be effective, though, I'd like to have some explanation as to why they wouldn't use it.
One interesting option along the lines of 1) would be to make astral space inherently dangerous. e.g. there are a *lot* of spirits wandering around, and they're usually territorial and hostile. Important facilities and upscale neighborhoods will be kept clear, but following someone around in astral space for any amount of time is likely to get you attacked.
It's consistent with the rules, but I haven't read a lot of SR fiction, so I'm not sure how consistent it is with that...
It depends on the writer's needs for tension. Some have astral space clear except for an occasional watcher or benevolent free spirit, while others have toxics wandering around attacking anything and everything. I think areas around upscale and corporate interests would probably be either patrolled or kept clear of dangerous spirits but I wouldn't be surprised with a few watchers in that area.
Do smoke grenades block Astral Sight?
If not, it looks like you're gonna have to find some bacteria-bombs. That is, the equivalent of a smoke grenades, but it's little tiny bacterias suspended in midair. It would probably cause less of a visibility modifier for those in the physical world, but completely block out astral, since they can't see through living things (or move through them)
Also, if you get out of the mages LOS, and dive into some bushes, the mages probably wouldn't be able to see you, and if your mage was doing that astral signature cleansing thing, they suddently have alot of places to look for you.
If not, it looks like you're gonna have to find some bacteria-bombs. That is, the equivalent of a smoke grenades, but it's little tiny bacterias suspended in midair. It would probably cause less of a visibility modifier for those in the physical world, but completely block out astral, since they can't see through living things (or move through them)
Also, if you get out of the mages LOS, and dive into some bushes, the mages probably wouldn't be able to see you, and if your mage was doing that astral signature cleansing thing, they suddently have alot of places to look for you.
In SR4, you can move through living things...
| QUOTE (Slump) |
| Do smoke grenades block Astral Sight? |
Yep.
Several good points already raised. Basically, astral mages can't communicate with those around their meat body, they can't read street signs and can't use technological devices in the real world (so no phoning in using a public phone).
It is possible that a relay of mages could report locations. This has its own problems though. The mage shouldn't have any problem getting back to their body, but they might have trouble reporting locations if they don't have the map well memorized. When they go back to the hunt, they will have to find the runners all over again, which probably won't be easy, especially if they are moving. Most Corps won't have that many security mages to begin with and probably wouldn't put them all on one case since there could always be another attack some place else.
One way around this is to have a mage with an Ally Spirit. The mage leaves the ally behind and uses the mindlink to report the location in real time. If the mage loses track of where he is, he calls the ally to him. Then the ally materializes, reads streets signs and goes back to HQ.
One other way to evade is to go underground. If the mage follows you, they are hemmed in by the ground above them. The problem is that while it traps the enemy mage, it can also turn into a trap for the characters too.
It is possible that a relay of mages could report locations. This has its own problems though. The mage shouldn't have any problem getting back to their body, but they might have trouble reporting locations if they don't have the map well memorized. When they go back to the hunt, they will have to find the runners all over again, which probably won't be easy, especially if they are moving. Most Corps won't have that many security mages to begin with and probably wouldn't put them all on one case since there could always be another attack some place else.
One way around this is to have a mage with an Ally Spirit. The mage leaves the ally behind and uses the mindlink to report the location in real time. If the mage loses track of where he is, he calls the ally to him. Then the ally materializes, reads streets signs and goes back to HQ.
One other way to evade is to go underground. If the mage follows you, they are hemmed in by the ground above them. The problem is that while it traps the enemy mage, it can also turn into a trap for the characters too.
| QUOTE (kerbarian @ Jan 14 2007, 09:47 PM) |
| 2) Just say (as GM) that corps tend not to use centrally-dispatched astral security. If it would be effective, though, I'd like to have some explanation as to why they wouldn't use it. |
Well, if you were a mage... would you want a job like that?
Or rather one of the thousand jobs out there, which are much more interesting than sitting in some room for an eight hour shift waiting for an emergency call.
You will only get the low-end of mages to actually do that, I'd think.
And you would still have to pay them a lot for that job...
Same reason why there should not be Force 10+ spirits running around everywhere.
Most mages could use their talent for much better things. And even most corps might have a number of better uses for these valuable employees.
I think this only sounds this simple on paper.
Bye
Thanee
Free spirits are actually really rare. In Aztlan, a country that counts all the non-metahuman people in its population figures, has only 2% non-metahuman, and that's counting the shapeshifters and dragons. Of that, maybe 5% of them are free spirits.
Plus, I don't imagine that free spirits would do much hanging around in cities. They'll be bothered all the time by the random astrally projecting mages, if not outright disrupted. There has to be more mages randomly astrally projecting than free spirits, anyway.
Plus, I don't imagine that free spirits would do much hanging around in cities. They'll be bothered all the time by the random astrally projecting mages, if not outright disrupted. There has to be more mages randomly astrally projecting than free spirits, anyway.
you could always allow the purchasing of anchor foci. for example, anchor foci with a nice, high force, mana static in it. foci are astrally present as well, so they should theoretically be able to drop a mana barrier, or even a mana ball (astral grenades )
additionally, keep in mind that there are mages out there who provide spirits. this is just as true for the runners as it is for mr bigshot wageslave, and you can bet there are some magicians willing to sell the services of their conjured spirits. it probably won't be cheap, but if you do your homework and expect to need it, you should be able to buy it. even if not, an appropriate contact could get you a spirit sent to you (will presumably cost extra, since we're talking about two services; one to find you, one for you to use, and furthermore if you're in a high security warded area, you shouldn't waste your time or money).
so keep in mind that while magic is not available to the average mundane, it *is* available to a sufficiently rich mundane who wants it badly enough, albeit in limited form.
of course, getting either of those things into a warded facility is a bit tricky, but even if you're looking at something just to get rid of the trailing mage for a bit as soon as you step outside the wards, this should help a little.
)additionally, keep in mind that there are mages out there who provide spirits. this is just as true for the runners as it is for mr bigshot wageslave, and you can bet there are some magicians willing to sell the services of their conjured spirits. it probably won't be cheap, but if you do your homework and expect to need it, you should be able to buy it. even if not, an appropriate contact could get you a spirit sent to you (will presumably cost extra, since we're talking about two services; one to find you, one for you to use, and furthermore if you're in a high security warded area, you shouldn't waste your time or money).
so keep in mind that while magic is not available to the average mundane, it *is* available to a sufficiently rich mundane who wants it badly enough, albeit in limited form.
of course, getting either of those things into a warded facility is a bit tricky, but even if you're looking at something just to get rid of the trailing mage for a bit as soon as you step outside the wards, this should help a little.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| How are these mages communicating with base? I can assure you they're not using their comlink focus. Did they take the time to cast a mind link spell. How will they know where you are, their GPS foci won't be working either. So even if they could communicate back to someone they can't say you're at the corner of first and 1st, etc. |
Materialized spirits can read street signs and report back to base.
Why don't you get your magician to summon an elemental or spirit and use it's powers on the astrally projecting mages? If they combat the spirit, they'll take nasty physical drain, while the spirit nails them. Or you could get a spirit to use it's concealment power on your team.
No more physical drain in astral space.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Materialized spirits can read street signs and report back to base. |
All of them, or just Spirits of Man? What languages do they automatically know?
No comment on that in SR4 I think. But there was one in SR3 (again IIRC) that they can speak the native language of the caster.
'Speak' does not necessarily equate to 'read' though.
True, but I would definitley grant Spirits of Man the skills to do so (well its not a skill anymore in SR4).
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| True, but I would definitley grant Spirits of Man the skills to do |
I'd have no problem with that, as I implied above.
| QUOTE |
| How are these mages communicating with base? I can assure you they're not using their comlink focus. Did they take the time to cast a mind link spell. |
Watchers. No, not for the old fashioned "there-and-back-again" courier crap either. Using the rules for Spirit-Summoner Link, you leave a Watcher with your physical security guys and have it act as the magician's ears and mouthpiece while the magician operates astrally. Additionally, Watchers with the Search power can help lead the security guys to the mage and his prey.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jan 16 2007, 02:15 AM) |
| Watchers. No, not for the old fashioned "there-and-back-again" courier crap either. Using the rules for Spirit-Summoner Link, you leave a Watcher with your physical security guys and have it act as the magician's ears and mouthpiece while the magician operates astrally. Additionally, Watchers with the Search power can help lead the security guys to the mage and his prey. |
I could be wrong, but I don't believe Watchers can acquire the Search Power, and I also don't think the Link rules work that way for them, since they are only minor Spirit beings.
If the Link rules did work the way you claim for Watchers, there would be no need for them to make the return trip with a response when used to send messages. They could just camp at the other end, and become an Astral Commlink. I just don't think it works quite that way.
SR4, page 181:
| QUOTE |
| Watchers maintain the same mental link with their summoner as regular spirits do (see p. 177). |
SR4. page 177:
| QUOTE |
| Spirit-Summoner Link A telepathic link exists between a spirit and its summoner at all times. This allows the spirit to communicate with its summoner from astral space without revealing itself. This link also allows communication over a distance—though it does not extend to the metaplanes. |
Like I said, the old 'courier comes back with a reply' bit is crap. It's a holdover from earlier editions when Watchers were not telepathically linked to the magician.
Hailing frequencies open!
Check the entry for Watchers in the Critter section.
SR4, page 295:
SR4, page 295:
| QUOTE |
| Powers: Astral Form, Search |
Personally I think this feature (the summoner link) is a little (well, quite) overpowered, making astral security even more tight. Not that it needed to be made more efficent . ..
We have a pair of magicians in my group that always summon a pair of watchers and team them up with the other (non-summoning) magician. This way each of them has secure communications with the other. In effect, it is very much a magical communicator and a cheap but somewhat less effective Mind Link since you do get your info third person (but with direct quotes and pictures as applicable).
I stand corrected, although I dislike the idea of a Watcher Commlink Network™ quite intensely.
| QUOTE |
| I dislike the idea of a Watcher Commlink Network™ quite intensely. |
Don't feel bad, I hate the "Wireless World" and how it can really overcomplicate pulling off anything if your GM pushes any degree of realism. When everyone is walking around with a dozen gadgets that can all ID you and can easily send out emergency signals faster than you can blink, things get silly really fast.
Face facts, shadowrunners only succeed becasue of plot needs. If it's not within the plot, they pretty much have 0% chance of success. It's one of my main dislikes of the game.
That is not true. For this, you have hackers.
(Of course, runners have to avoid a lot of things and can not live joe normal everyday life, but thats adding to the atmosphere of the game. See my SGP in my sig for what I mean).
(Of course, runners have to avoid a lot of things and can not live joe normal everyday life, but thats adding to the atmosphere of the game. See my SGP in my sig for what I mean).
Serbitar's SGP:
| QUOTE |
| Forutnately, the only method that is widely used is face recognition. |
Right here is my point about plot. It's not hard to imagine that all of the other factors, such as thermal outlines and voice patterns, can and will be used frequently to identify shadowrunners. If you try to rob a Stuffer Shack, chances are that several of the locals will have picked up images (some may be thermal) and sound bites of you and zipped this off in 911 matrix bites fater than a hacker can stop them all. All local sytems can be alterted, and now you need to hack every street cam all the way home and cover that. Try not talking too - selective sound filter tech is so good that every persons voice can be scanned by every surviellance system. Sorry, but the tech is there and the tech is cheap. To have it not be used is to simply rely on plot.
Who said anyone else in the Stuffer Shack had to know that you were robbing the place. You send a commlink message to the teller, allow him to see the gun. Get the cash, and your purchase, and walk out.
Several other clients would not have even noticed the robbery.
In the Intelligence community, it is known that large organizations have all the information they need to know about/stop anything. It is knowing what is important that is the problem.
Yes, it may be theoretically possible to track the guy who robbed the stuffer shack back to his place. Provided that you are willing to go thru the hasle of getting warrants to get access to the "footage" from all those cameras (provided that they still have it when you finally get around to asking them), not to mention the huge amount of manpower needed to scan all that footage, as you have to prove that you kept the subject in continous sight.
That is just an easy case. Imagine if a runner team did a hit on Mitsuhama in Seattle, and the escape path leads by the Aztec Pyramid. Do you think that Aztec will actually help out Mitsuhama? Not likely. That goes for smaller companies as well as the big corps.
If the criminals drive into the barrens, then that camera track feature is lost. They could have changed vehicles, still be in there, dropped the vehicle mask and driven back out, etc...
Drop some thermal smoke grenades at an intersection, drop or activate vehicle mask, drive away looking like one of the 20 cabs that were there. Now they have 21 vehicles to track.
I will admit, that if the crime is big enough, public enough, that the resources could be made available, but not even that guarantees that they will be able to track you.
By and large, wireless does not mean that Big Brother can and does see all.
Several other clients would not have even noticed the robbery.
In the Intelligence community, it is known that large organizations have all the information they need to know about/stop anything. It is knowing what is important that is the problem.
Yes, it may be theoretically possible to track the guy who robbed the stuffer shack back to his place. Provided that you are willing to go thru the hasle of getting warrants to get access to the "footage" from all those cameras (provided that they still have it when you finally get around to asking them), not to mention the huge amount of manpower needed to scan all that footage, as you have to prove that you kept the subject in continous sight.
That is just an easy case. Imagine if a runner team did a hit on Mitsuhama in Seattle, and the escape path leads by the Aztec Pyramid. Do you think that Aztec will actually help out Mitsuhama? Not likely. That goes for smaller companies as well as the big corps.
If the criminals drive into the barrens, then that camera track feature is lost. They could have changed vehicles, still be in there, dropped the vehicle mask and driven back out, etc...
Drop some thermal smoke grenades at an intersection, drop or activate vehicle mask, drive away looking like one of the 20 cabs that were there. Now they have 21 vehicles to track.
I will admit, that if the crime is big enough, public enough, that the resources could be made available, but not even that guarantees that they will be able to track you.
By and large, wireless does not mean that Big Brother can and does see all.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) | ||
Serbitar's SGP:
Right here is my point about plot. It's not hard to imagine that all of the other factors, such as thermal outlines and voice patterns, can and will be used frequently to identify shadowrunners. If you try to rob a Stuffer Shack, chances are that several of the locals will have picked up images (some may be thermal) and sound bites of you and zipped this off in 911 matrix bites fater than a hacker can stop them all. All local sytems can be alterted, and now you need to hack every street cam all the way home and cover that. Try not talking too - selective sound filter tech is so good that every persons voice can be scanned by every surviellance system. Sorry, but the tech is there and the tech is cheap. To have it not be used is to simply rely on plot. |
One thing you are forgetting 'though is that for normal people there will be a lag before they send info to the Star. The Star will not allow permanent link ups with anyone beyond a panic button because that would flood their networks. As a result the best physical response you could get at a Stuffer Shack would depend on how fast the locals reacted.
For normal people, Shadowrunners robbing a Stuffer shack would cause Composure tests with a pretty large threshold. I'm pretty sure that if some nuts started waving guns around while I was in a 7-11 I would be more concerned with getting away from the guns than calling the cops. Even if communication were near instantaneous. The same holds true for 95% of the population--even the dorks who like to fantasize that they are like John Wayne. The only time the runners would be in trouble is if there were an off-duty cop in the place.
This becomes a little different in a ext'tal corp facility because the corps have full control over everything. This is where Sams run into problems in SR4. On the other hand a Face/Social Adept should be able to rock just about any run into a corp facility. SR4 is more like Mission Impossible (the TV show) than Die Hard.
| QUOTE |
| SR4 is more like Mission Impossible (the TV show) than Die Hard. |
Ideally, it is. Unfortunately, most of the adventures I've seen are not written from that perspective. They really are more Die Hard and both players and GM should just ignore any contigencies that might interfere with the 'good time' that such play allows. Fine for some, but it really causes a profound sense of disbelief for me.
Anyway, sorry to threadjack. Back to astral surveillance. Keep your astral communication lines open.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) | ||
Serbitar's SGP:
Right here is my point about plot. It's not hard to imagine that all of the other factors, such as thermal outlines and voice patterns, can and will be used frequently to identify shadowrunners. If you try to rob a Stuffer Shack, chances are that several of the locals will have picked up images (some may be thermal) and sound bites of you and zipped this off in 911 matrix bites fater than a hacker can stop them all. All local sytems can be alterted, and now you need to hack every street cam all the way home and cover that. Try not talking too - selective sound filter tech is so good that every persons voice can be scanned by every surviellance system. Sorry, but the tech is there and the tech is cheap. To have it not be used is to simply rely on plot. |
The point here is, like Mistwalker mentioned: Data mining. There is data of virtually anything out there. The main problem is to get it.
Everything in public will most certainly be recorded (its starting today with cellphone cameras). The problem is to filter the information and gather it. Thats a non trivial problem.
Runners can take advantage of that. They can change their SINS regularly, use Face masks, mask spells, not use RFIDs and so on. Of course, the life of Joe Normal is fair game for any competent hacker. A hacker can completely own and ruin Joe Normals life, as he will now virtually anything about him (some effort included), but Runners, living in low Tech areas, avoiding anything and using the tricks of their trade, can slip through the cracks of the system.
But as I said before: It is not easy and they can most certainly not live a normal life. And players and GM should talk about this topic before their first game sessions, so that everyone knows what to expect.
| QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 16 2007, 12:12 AM) |
| Of course, the life of Joe Normal is fair game for any competent hacker. A hacker can completely own and ruin Joe Normals life, as he will now virtually anything about him (some effort included), but Runners, living in low Tech areas, avoiding anything and using the tricks of their trade, can slip through the cracks of the system. |
Lol...funny images of what they did to the FBI agent in Hackers with that quote.
For ditching Astral Tracking:
I've said before on these forums that it is near impossible to hide things from magic now. The Search power has become commonplace in my games (the players struck first on this one so I feel more than justified for NPCs to use it now).
About the only thing I can say is preparation. Our group's SOP for a run is now this:
1. Find an apartment or house near the target that is for rent, sale, or the owners are on vacation over the time of the run. Hijack said target.
2. Place a Force 10 ward on it and fake keys and passcodes for all run members.
3. Set up operations in a nearby rental warehouse or other such space. The run gets planned and executed from here.
4. Warded apartment becomes safehouse in case the plan goes to hell and as a medical aid station.
The Force 10 ward keeps idle wanderers away, is near impossible even for a big spirit or specialist NPC to crack (-10 to a dice pool is pretty brutal unless the GM cheats with some big baddie), and has relatively little trace.
Usually however, in my group the legwork/prep, takes from 2-3 sessions, the run takes 1 or less, and the follow up takes about another 1. So you can see what sort of emphasis we place on the game.
In my game we usually just go to a sensitive public transportation system, such as an airport. I think airports would be relatively accessible, assuming you are not sporting heavy weapons when you enter, and would have heavy astral security. But it has already been said, the best way to defeat astral security is to keep moving. Can anybody say road trip? Another option would be to go to any place that has a large amount of people and try to get lost in the crowd, such as a shopping mall, sporting event, or fair ground of some sort. This would not work if you are carrying active foci, or have sustained spells, but if everyone is normal enough it would probably work.
| QUOTE |
| The Force 10 ward keeps idle wanderers away, is near impossible even for a big spirit or specialist NPC to crack (-10 to a dice pool is pretty brutal unless the GM cheats with some big baddie), and has relatively little trace. |
With a Force that high, I'm pretty sure it also holds one heck of an astral signature. If you're traced back to it astrally the bad guy probably can't break it - but he can certainly wait around until physical world help arrives (conveniently called via his Watcher-talkie).
| QUOTE |
| In my game we usually just go to a sensitive public transportation system, such as an airport. I think airports would be relatively accessible, assuming you are not sporting heavy weapons when you enter, and would have heavy astral security. |
I would consider this a VERY BAD idea. An airport wouold have very high security - and that's not going to work in your favor. Even train stations and bus terminals are going to be pretty secure and should be avoided by the runner trying to lay low.
I haven't had to deal with shaking an astral tail in my game yet, surprisingly. . . without the search power being used against you, moving through crowded areas, going underground, through wards, and places with astral security should all hamper your shadow.
Crowded places can help or hinder, it depends on how well you can blend and what the locals are like. While it might help you to shake astral pursuers, it's going to increase the odds of physical or electronic ID systems coming into play. Standing in front of the light isn't always the best way to hide in the shadows.
Underground is useful when it's avaialble, but it is also limiting to your routes of escape. It may make your escape route much more predictable - NEVER assume that just becasue you're a 'runner you know the terrain better than the corp talents.
Wards and areas of astral security tend to be in the hands of the corps more than the 'runners. This is becasue such things are by design stationary. NEVER try to hold a stationary point no matter how hardened you think it is - the corps can always crack your nut if they want to.
Underground is useful when it's avaialble, but it is also limiting to your routes of escape. It may make your escape route much more predictable - NEVER assume that just becasue you're a 'runner you know the terrain better than the corp talents.
Wards and areas of astral security tend to be in the hands of the corps more than the 'runners. This is becasue such things are by design stationary. NEVER try to hold a stationary point no matter how hardened you think it is - the corps can always crack your nut if they want to.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
| With a Force that high, I'm pretty sure it also holds one heck of an astral signature. If you're traced back to it astrally the bad guy probably can't break it - but he can certainly wait around until physical world help arrives (conveniently called via his Watcher-talkie). |
A way around that is to summon a spirit and have it make the barrier for you. A rating 10 barrier is also rather high. Most of the time you wouldn't need more than a 3 or so to keep out casual visitors. If nothing else, anything trying to breech the barrier will be enough to provide warning that something is coming.
On the other hand, Street Magic does have new kinds of barriers. One is a trap barrier that activates if something enters the warded area trapping it inside the barrier. You could set one up and try to lure or force your pursuer into it. They would be trapped, at least for a while. Getting them in there would be the problem. Go in a building, they could just orbit outside waiting to see if you come out again. If they follow you on the streets, odds are it will be from altitude and not ground level.
The search power is a lot stronger in SR4 than it was in SR3. Still, there is a penalty per kilometer and for barriers. Putting a ward on your getaway vehicle and then make a hasty getaway and that power would have a tough time finding you.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
| Wards and areas of astral security tend to be in the hands of the corps more than the 'runners. This is becasue such things are by design stationary. NEVER try to hold a stationary point no matter how hardened you think it is - the corps can always crack your nut if they want to. |
Just a nitpick here: wards are by design stationary, but only with respect to the ward enclosure. If the ward enclosure happens to be the walls of a van, then your ward is as mobile as the van is. (See Demonseed's blog, and the official SR4 FAQ)
However, with the problem of astral tracking, you'd better be out of sight of your tracker when you duck into the warded van, because if you aren't, your tracker will just assense the van and start tracking that.
| QUOTE |
| Remaining Stationary Wards are not portable astral objects. The warding ritual creates an astral link between the shadow of the physical anchor and the space being warded. If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from its location at the time of the warding ritual, the entire ward collapses. |
The above is from Street Magic. Has it been officially changed?
| QUOTE |
| Can a ward be placed inside a moving van? "A physical anchor cannot move more than a few centimeters relative to the ward enclosure when the ward was created." That's the key phrase and it can be pretty tricky. For instance, if you create a domed ward outdoors using a rock as the physical anchor, and then someone kicks that rock a few feet, the ward will collapse. It has moved more than few centimeters from its position relative to the domed ward at creation. But, if you ward a shipping container using the walls of that shipping container as the physical anchor, and the shipping container is shipped across the Pacific Ocean, the ward does not collapse. The entire warded enclosure is moving, so in the relationship between the ward and physical anchor, it hasn't moved at all from its relationship at the ward's creation. As an aside, this is also why the spin of the Earth doesn't cause the domed ward around the rock to collapse. Because the entire enclosure is moving with the rotation of the Earth. Until someone kicks that rock, the relationship between the ward and stone remain the same. |
OK. It is interesting to note that the phrase "A physical anchor cannot move more than a few centimeters relative to the ward enclosure when the ward was created." is most certainly NOT the same wording that was used in Street Magic. I prefer the FAQ's version, but it's not a clarification as much as a reversal of the ruling.
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