Ooooor, some of 'us' were actually just paranoid as hell that Fanpro didn't give a fuck while the truth was they did but just weren't willing to kiss off a bunch of other potential customers (for example me) while there was a workable solution available to sell to both.

Wow that's exactly how my group and I felt about Living Room Games and ED after they took over. Except that we use the rules but HATE the story direction. Needless to say we exited the market.

Yeah but to be profitable you have to consider consumers' reactions to the product change. Obviously they thought that new customers would make up for loss of old ones. Doesn't matter in my market because SR3 or SR4, neither one sold very well and have largely disappeared from all but the largest stores.

Minor OT: Have you seen Red Brick's ED?

yes I have and I generally like what I've seen so far. 'Course I can't find any of their hardcopy books in stores so I haven't read through any 'for sale' items. Just the downloads.

Actually I pop in on their forums too but haven't posted.

I am sorry, but the people who "subsidized" this new edition would be all the germans who bought Das Schwarze Auge over the years, and made enough money for Fantasy Productions Medienvertriebsgesellschaft GmbH (aka, FanPro) to be able to convince WizKids to let them pick up the license.

WizKids, of course, purchased the rights to the Shadowrun IP from FASA, and they were/are "subsidized" by the people who have been buying up "WhateverClix" games like they were made from 25mm prepainted crack-rock.

WizKids, Inc. as purchased by sports-card manufacturer Topps, Inc. in 2003 for $28.4 million in cash. Topps wanted a peice of WotC's Pokemon market, and with the introduction of constructible strategy game Pirates of the Spanish Main, the WizKids unit managed to reach profitability shortly after releasing it.

It wasn't the prior editions of SR that gave FanPro > WizKids > Topps the extra profit to spend on the design and marketing of SR4. It was their other product lines. Previous editions of SR gave them solid evidence that there would be a potential market for Shadowrun, and feedback from customers (actual comments, and slumping sales) let them know that a new edition would be better for them than the old one.

Shadowrun, 4th edition is sellign very well. (#133,467 in Books on Amazon, for example) SR3 is not. (#633,390, as a matter of fact). Now, the fact of the matter is that nothing under the sun ever sells as well as D&D. (The 3.5 PHB is Amazon's #1,926) This is one of the many reason you are not going to find Shadowrun at your local Barnes & Noble... But I bet you can find Pirates of the Spanish Main and WhateverClix.

This may seem hard to swallow, but despite how vocal some folks on these message boards are: SR4 is selling very, very well. So are its supplements. SR3 is not, and was not as the line ended. FanPro may lose a small number of customers, who stubbornly hold onto SR1, 2, or 3... but the majority of the old customer base has switched, they've gained new customers, and... most important to them, they are turning a profit.

Interesting; But it still means that Das schwaze Auge is outselling SR.

Wow, I just wikipediaed DSA and it looks kinda awesome. Maybe I should learn German...

Sorry to re-tangent the thread, but I wanted to toss in my .02

This is a great little conundrum, what makes Emergence so special if there's just an adventure there? I'm thinking there's a significant metaplot thing to be shown. Like all corporations use Technomancers for all their finances or something. Or since the poor have gotten ahold of the wireless Matrix, it's much more safe or much less safe or whatever. TMs will probably no longer have a dearth of a culture and purpose.

If Unwired came out before Emergence, Synner seems to be saying that there would be rules for homeless hackers or TM CPAs or whatever, and there would be even less of a place for them than current TMs (mind-boggling, I know).

I'm thinking of just pretending SR doesn't exist for a year or so, then when I read FanPro Year in Review 2007, I'll be amazed and excited for all the new shit they put out without my fragile little mind getting all poisoned by cynical DSFers.

..that depends how you define 'awesome' - doesn't it, emo?

If I'm not mistaken, there is an english version starting, too.

Well, DSA has a very detailed world, at least. Maybe too detailed, but if you like discussions why there can't be no weaponsmith in this shitty little village (because even this fucking village is fleshed out in some obscure sourcebook or magazine) and when you like railroading in adventures and the idea that no PC can get as powerful as the top-NPCs, well, then DSA might be your game.

Yes, I'm ranting.

Back to topic: I would love to see both Emergence and Unwired released at the same time. That would have been great!

Bear in mind that FanPro LLC and FanPro GmbH are two different companies. Also, comparing today's sales of SR3 to today's sales of SR4 hardly allows you to draw conclusions about how well SR3 was selling for FanPro LLC. SR4 is selling great, but even considering how depressed the non-d20 RPG market was in 2002-2004, SR3 wasn't exactly floundering.

Also, SR4 is stocked at B&N, but their stocking decisions are local, so some stores have it, and some stores don't. Any store in the chain should be able to get FanPro titles, though.

FanPro also released an English translation of The Dark Eye, but only three titles for it: the core book, an adventure set Secrets of the Blue Tower/Witching Hours, and World of Aventuria. You can grab them at FanProDirect.com

Yes, but if FanPro GmbH had not been profitable, there would be no FanPro LLC. For either division of the company, SR3 was not the flagship product.

I brought up todays SR3 sales to refute the claim that SR3 is so superior to SR4 that new player are flocking to it. They ain't.

Yes, B&N and the other big box booksellers (Border's, et al.) do stock SR4... they also stock WHFRPG, WoD, and L5R. However, regional or store level purchasing agents (it varies by company) look at what sells when restocking stores. D&D product moves, the other stuff doesn't... I am not saying these are bad games or books; Hell, some WotC stuff is liquid c--p between two cardboard covers. But that's business.

Look, I used to manager a Blockbuster Video. I got to know our district purchasing manager. I knew Ultraviolet was liquid c--p, she knew it too. We both knew Brokeback Mountain was one of the best movies that year. We still got 70 Ultraviolet's and 20 Brokeback.

Curse you Adam. I just paid off the credit card.

This is what's happening to SR4 in my local FLGS' I believe. Shelf space has been steadily declining and whenever I ask them if they have such-and-such a SR book they look at me like I'm speaking Mongolian.

And since I don't want to pay FanPro 40 euros to ship the GM Screen to me I think I'll have to do without.

When FanPro LLC was formed, SR3 was it's only product line.

I'd suggest that based on the figures I've seen, SR4 products are "moving" through mass-market retail channels at a fairly decent pace. It's not doing D&D numbers, but no other hobby game is doing D&D numbers, so I'm not losing any sleep over that.

To buy retail by mail across the border you get hit with a sizable shipping fee, then taxed on everything and then pay a tax handling fee on top of it. Yes, it's a pain and I just don't do it myself. I only buy PDFs (no physical shipment) direct from the US if at all possible. I'd be surprised though if the store wouldn't 'special order', which isn't really that special. They just add it to the list for their next shipment order from the distributors.

Or you could mailorder within Canada.

Hell, if this were run by Microsoft, your SR3 books would have burst into flames the moment SR4 came out, and there would have been a clause in the front of every book that states that once you open the book beyond the first page, they are not liable for any book-flame-bursting that may have been caused by not keeping your library up-to-date with the latest patches...

Why would you pay FanPro 40 euros to ship you something from Europe if you're in Canada? Why not pay Amazon.ca CDN $17.00 + shipping for it? They even offer free shipping on orders over CDN $39.

If you could take the time replicate that and send an email to info@fanprodirect.com explaining the problem and how it appeared, that would be great.

Demerzel: I highly advise you to disable viewing .sigs on the ClassicBattletech.com forums. Much cleaner. I hope you're enjoying Total Warfare!

Best gaming store I've ever been to. I feel privileged that it's my FLGS.

Roger that. At least on pickup, I live pretty close to it (used to be walking distance). They have on the shelf literally dozens of SR titles.

P.S. They have a very extensive supply of OOP stuff too. They sort by publisher so make sure to check under both "Fantasy Productions" and "FASA" if you are looking for the older titles.

Huh? They've been in Calgary at least 15 years? I've been in Calgary since 1990 and I found them within a year, two tops, after I moved here (back at their old Marda Loop location) and it was my understanding that they'd been there some time before that.

Maybe they had a second store out there? Or are you talking waaaay back?

Evidently there's more Calgarians on here than I'd thought.

Last I counted there was maybe 8 or so, not including you, that posted on and off, but I know a couple have moved out of the city (some close, some very far).

I started shopping there in 89 or 90 and it was there until about 93...I could be wrong. College kinda made my earlier life a little foggy. Lol.

I'm pretty sure that they moved to Calgary 'cause the owner of the Vancouver one moved there.

P.S. You lucky, lucky bastards!

Do I need Total Warfare only to re-start with BT again? I have tons of minis, hex maps and the old Tech Manuals around here...