I coded a program in c to calculate this. *flexes* This is assuming that the average immortal elf has lived 10,000 years and gained 3 karma per month because he has a cheapass GM. That means he has 360,000 karma by the time he hits the 6th world.

I'm disregarding magical groups, since they probably didn't form groups since they're so disinclined to agree with anybody that they didn't convince to agree with them in the first place. And I'm disregarding ordeals, since it's probably a pain in the ass to be constantly writing theses.

I'm assuming that they use 1/2 their karma on initiation grades, and the other half on leveling up their libraries of 100 skills.

The numbers are... *drumroll*... 341 initiation grades (0_0) and 100 skills at rating 43, making them INVINCIBLE.

The source code is here:



I am the nerdiest man aliiiiiiiiive!!!

The Karma system breaks down any time you try to apply it beyond its narrow scope as a guage for professional criminals who are always trying to improve themselves.

Past a certain point, improving a skill takes incredible dedication. If you had an extended lifespan, would you become the best kung-fu fighter in the world, or would you get to a cerain point and be happy with it?

The other thing is that immortal elves would only have superhuman skills if they not only had an immortal lifespan, but also an eidetic memory and a superhuman ability to focus on something for thousands of years. More likely, they have learned, and then forgotten, many things over the years.


That said, I would give immortal elves extremely high levels of initiation (20+), at least one or two unique metamagics, quite a few foci, quickened and anchored spells, and spirits, just about every spell in the book, magical skills in the 9-12 range or higher, and a wide selection of other skills at 5-6. They would have the equivalent of exceptional Attribute on all of their mental stats, and physical stats would be at least above average, and magically boosted from there. Their magical tradition would be the equivalent of the Path of the Righ. They would have a huge Karma Pool, say 100 or so (and that's assuming they burn Karma fairly regularly). And to that, I would add lots of minions, paranoid security precautions, and plans ready to go for any contingency.

So they wouldn't be invincible, per se, but they would be effectively invincible against anything but an extremely determined, high-powered team of runners bringing all of their resources to bear. But they aren't invincible by being statless super-beings or having illogical numbers to their stats - they survive by a combination of extreme personal power, more subtly amassed power, and circumspection. Immortal elves shouldn't go around bullying PCs- they are mostly movers and shakers behind the scenes.

You hate fun, Glyph. Why do you hate fun?

And Eidetic Memory's a 10 karma positive quality.

But if they took it Emo, then when would the IEs ever get to say, and really mean it, "I've forgotten more about magic and the world then you could possibly understand in a mortal span."

Then they'd have to settle for saying "I'm sooooooo much better than you."

So should there be a shelf life to skill points? Mundane boxed points a life of a couple years but the freeze dried and shrink wrapped awakened character's points more like 10 years. Because you need to keep practicing and using skills or you get rusty. Awakened might have special brains that keep their skills from going bad, but it is just a stop gap measure.

So they would need to pay "upkeep" karma on their skills every so often to represent keeping in practice.

Great idea Yoippari!

Every century, there will be upkeep equal to the karma cost to build those skills up. This should keep those pesky IEs at nearer to mortal levels.

I had much more fun when the exasperated runner group opened up on Ehran and Harlequin during their silly sword fight. The elves were both blown into bloody chunks, with extra graphic descriptions of what huge amounts of explosive rounds do to unarmored bodies. Then the team walked past the open mouther group of Tir soldiers and into teh sunset.

Wouldn't they have, like, 50 anchored spells to stop the bullets?

yeah.

mfb should know, he is one.

shh, don't tell. i'm trying to scam my way back onto the British throne.

what, you think some shiny sword and a winning smile are enough?

it worked at least once!

well when you've got actual ranks in the Winning Smile talent, you can go far....

Especially 43 ranks.

I think a good benchmark for IEs is that their group is roughly on par with the Great Dragons. Of course GDs are solitary creatures, and the elves organize into courts of varying sizes (more like covens really). So six or more IEs can roughly equal a GD in power. With some notable exceptions, of course.

Like that fucking bastard, Harlequinn. Still the only fucker in canon to teleport. And I can't even handwave the event out of existence, because it was Findley's last book and...

I just don't have the heart to do that.

Now, for an example of a statted IE, try digging up Prime Runners (I know, I know) and checking out Teachdaire's raw level of accomplishment. Then give him sane choices in adept powers and ware.

There aren't a lot of Grade 9 initiate physical adepts with 4 points of Deltaware running the Earth. He's a scary fucker when used effectively. And there's an argument against him even being a real IE, and that if he is, he's an example of one of the weaker ones. He's rather nutty, as I recall. Does a good job killing Azzies though.

Netherwalking != teleporting.

~J

As cheezy as it sounds, especially from the perrinial disliker of IE ultrauberness, IE: me, I kind of like the idea of an IE being the ultimate martial artist. The kind of person who has traveled the world, learning and doing so the hard way, without the benefit of Adept powers or Cyberware or Magic to aid in his learning, and becoming, ironically, the purest Mundane badass.

Not after 2070.

Huh?

In SR4, they can't have a skill higher than 7. I believe that's the implication.

~J

The great dragons do, I'd say that opens the door for exceeding the mortal threshold in certain areas.

So how many ally spirits you think an IE has. On average. (~_^)

that we know of, none of them do. However Ehran has Aerial (Nasser) which IIRC is a bound free spirit that serves him. And of course Ryumyo has Jurojin, but he's supposed to be the only canon GD w/ an ally.

We're forgetting the important issue.

They have had so much sex.

To my knowledge, Jurojin is not dikoted.

NOT GOOD IMAGE NOOOOOOOOOO

...a well aimed Thor Shot can still take them out.

No, actually, it probably can't. Thor shots have the disadvantage of having to travel from orbit, which reduces their effectiveness against targets that aren't stationary.

~J

...well, you don't have to be exactly on target like say a space borne laser or particle beam. Kind more of like those old Russian 20+ megaton nukes. So you miss by a few blocks, the city is still vapourised. A little bit of carpet bombing and you should be able to get one or two of em just based on random chance.

Thor shots have serious disadvantages compared to nukes for area destruction—specifically, because it isn't explosive, you're going to be releasing most of the energy at ground level. You aren't going to be flattening many cities with that, though you'll probably get a number of blocks (how many "a number" is I'm not going to guess, though others probably have an idea).

~J

So you just wait until Harlequin is lazing on a deck chair and there you go.

Remember, they have used a Thor Shot to take out a single man - a single man with a lot less importance and power than the Immortal Elf Harlequin.

Or has everyone forgotten the lesson of Art Dankwalther and falling girders?

We're trying, god knows.

~J

As I understand it, a Thor Shot corrects in flight, uses active monitoring from orbit to keep a positive lock, and levels something like five city blocks when it hit... He was fleeing on foot.

Where in the rules do Thor shot's come from anyway? I only have corporate shadowfiles, not Corp Download.

...then there's Pele's Wrath.

Big Kahuna knows all, sees all.

...time is on the Madam's side.

...it is running out for those haoles who've crossed her daughter.

--Hoʻoilina mōʻī Pele Kaikamahine Iolani.

[known to the locals as Princess Kam]

...so against GD's & IEs it's a 50/50 chance, that's still pretty good odds.

Me, I am of the opinion that, like nukes, if you get tagged by a Weapon of Mass Destruction, you're toast. I don't care if you're freaking Ghostwalker or Lofwyr or Harlequin or Ehrahan or who-the-fuck-ever you want to be.

If they put out an orbital hit on you and get a positive lock, your ass is grass. Your only hope is to somehow know about it the MOMENT it happens, and then get your ass going at a ridiculous airspeed to get out of the range where the girder can get you.

...or that tightly focused solar beam. Think of a magnifying glass on an ant & then multiply it by 10^5

If you throw a big enough space rock at someone they are going to die. Hell depending on the type and size of rock it might explode in the lower atmosphere and create a shockwave capable of reducing a person to a paste the consistancy of chunky salsa for miles.

I've always had an intense hatred of uber IEs, particularly leonardo. Hacking all the megacorps at once and blackmailing them makes me want to introduce some elf specific virus that kills all elves. Stupid IEs and their immortal uber awesomeness. I really fail to see their purpose besides letting the GM go "See? The book even says that my NPCs dick is bigger then yours ever could be".

A little while ago, I statted up Harlequin for 4th edition. The approach that I took was to build him within the rules and make him very powerful, but still something the players could try to oppose if they wished. It would be a grossly unequal fight and is meant to be. But I felt it was unfair to leave an NPC unstatted and simply handwave his ability to do anything. The players will know if you do this and it will undermine their faith in the fairness of the world, in a way that simply being trashed by a powerful hermetic magician wont. And who knows, with careful preperation and a dose of luck, maybe they can foil the H's endless plans.

Who is the GM to deny the players their chance to boast about inflicting a box of damage on Harlequinn before they were Levitated into the stratosphere.

I posted it on my site for anyone who is interested. The Harlequinn file itself is here.

No doubt there will be endless criticisms and I will enjoy hearing any. That's my current take on the painted bastard, though. Fell free to *yoink*

-K.

Well, sorry to be the first to dump on your parade, but.....

- Initiate Grade 12? Add another 5 (at least) to 15 (more likely) grades I think. Enough for "metamagics" to read "all+"

- Aspected Sorcerer? Umm, sorry. In Worlds Without End he summons a pair of steeds from the Wild Hunt with Aina's aid. The impression is that the painted jerk can indeed conjure.

- Att & Skill caps: Just Say No! (it's a personal preference thing)

Otherwise, looks good.