Hey, a decent question, and deserving of a decent answer.

In Shadowrun, the Infected (which includes vampires, ghouls, etc.) are living, breathing critters. They're undead the same way a guy who was dead for a few minutes and was resussitated by the EMTs is undead. They're not walking corpses animated by magical forces-those are zombies. They're not Buffy-esque soulless demons in metahuman bodies-those are insect spirits and, in some cases, shedim. The Infected are, as the title would suggest, carriers of an Awakened retrovirus (or family of related retroviruses).

Now, if you want to get technical about the definition of "what is living," many (though not all) of the Infected types are sterile-you might be raped by a vampire, but at least you won't get knocked up (ghouls, however, are a different kettle of fish entirely). Most of them eat something, though there are some weird physical and magical requirements on their particular food intake.

Also, the Infected can die. You're not going to come across a pile of dust and dribble some blood from a tampon on it and up comes the vampire. Not that most of the Infected are /easy/ to kill, but they do go down and stay down for good. Yes, that means you could use vampire parts to make a corps cadavre, but it's not going to get you anywhere.

well....

There are two players in the game who are husband and wife, wife is bored out of her skull with the game because she picked characters last, and husband convinced her to play a rigger. This is the first stab into SR4 for the H&W after previously playing SR3, so for this team the rigger is really just a well armed taxi cab for the group which is generally how things have played out in SR3 in my experience.

After the first run, I made a general statement that any one unhappy with their character has the option to switch their character out. The wife said that she wanted to switch her character out, she said she would email me her concepts and then either she or I would create the character as she doesn't have the book except in pdf. By next weeks game, no concepts and she had been convinced again that she should stick with the same character.

So, my goal is to make the game interesting for the wife, and I don't want it to turn into "The Rigger Show" and make only problems that the rigger can solve. She is playing the Smuggler stock character from the book, who is already alergic to sunlight.

It's seems like I have these options at this point:
1) Let her suffer in the game
2) Turn the game into the rigger show
3) Kill her character off so she has to make a new one
4) Give her a choice to make a modification to the character by turning it into a vampire, which might allow her to actually participate in the game and give her a more special character.

I'm not too worried about stat boosting with essence drain, since she's not a magic character. The stat changes would probably help her out, but wouldn't be crazy. The mist form, I'd be glad to have her use since it might mean she actually goes some where. The cyberware stays so she keeps her old abilities, and it gives her something extra to deal with ("Wow, with all the blood spilled in this fight, you're feeling a bit hungry again..."). Regeneration, while bad, means that she might be interested in going into a fight, but even if she just stays in her van, it won't get used really.

As for the stat boosting power, I thought that it said that only the essence that had been drained was available for spending in that way:

"If pressed, a critter that has drained Essence with in the past hour can siphon the stolen life force into other attributes, including (and often especially) Magic."

The emphasis is used to illustrate that they are still talking about the Essence drained with in the past hour. That sentance reads much differently if you take out the "the", but with the "the" in there I think its pretty clear that you can't use all of the essence the character has, only the essence gained with in the hour.

"Every 2 points of drained Essence temporarily boosts one Physical or Mental attribute, or Magic by +1. The effect wears off after 12 hours, and hald the Essence points used to fuel the boost are lost."

So in the best case scenario, you have 6 ess, and drain 1 full human, and then can get +3 to one attribute for 12 hours.

Well I suppose you could have a better scenario in which you encounter a coffin motel start with 0 essence, and drain 5 people for 1, 1, 2, 4, and 4 essence all with in the hour. To get a max of 12. and in that case you could get a boost of +6, but even after that, after 12 hours, you're at 6 essence, and you'd have to wait 6 months to do that again from essence loss.

As has previously been stated, all of a Vampire's Essence is stolen.

While a Vampire can only use their Attribute boost at all if they have Drained Essence in the last hour, the game doesn't actually keep track of which Essence points have been drained in the last hour and which have not. Once you've drained even a single point of Essence in the last hou, you can mark up to all of your Current Essence for Attribute boost.

Once that happens, you gain a bonus equal to half the marked Essence for 12 hours and then you lose half the marked Essence. This is in all ways exactly the same as if you had spent up to half your Essence, but apparently someone decided that this wording was less confusing.

I'm not just talking out of my ass here, I really have talked with the other writers about this subject quite extensively and often with profanity involved.

-Frank

Yes Frank, we know.

Put more succinctly than I've been putting it, but I'm basically in agreement with Ancient History. Vampires are not walking corpses. They are not dead.

No, sorry. It's not ambiguous. It says that the victim enters a state of "near death." We can presume that it's not talking about near death from the other side which would be "near life." There's no ambiguity that the Infection power talks about the character remaining alive. You refer to how later in the paragraph it mentions the "newly created critter" but decide to skip how it also says a few lines down that PCs that transformed through the infection power automatically become NPCs are their "death" and those quotes are the quotes used in the book. When someone writes "death" in quotes, they mean "not death." Or are you now going to start arguing against English punctuation also. You've several times explained how page 62 says there can't be any exceptions in the main book so this can't be an exception. I take your need to go elsewhere to try and show it isn't an exception to the general rule as a de facto admission that it would be if we didn't accept your "page 62 says never" argument as valid. And I don't accept that it is valid.

A general rule is established and the infection power later clarifies a more specific example. I don't see a problem with that.

As you yourself said, previous editions did not have vampires die during the transformation.

Cannon flavour text supports that they don't.

The infection power description says that they don't.

Ergo, I interpret that they don't. Now your counter to all of this seems to have eventually boiled down to this single line on page 62 which you have probably quoted at us nine or ten times by this point. You insist that there can be no exceptions and that a character whose essence is drained to 0 is dead. Now I've already pointed out that it doesn't say that they are dead but that they will die, and that when an infected character reaches 0 essence they immediately get a roll to see if they survive and their essence goes back up to 1. It seems very much like Ancient History said about being the same as a person who is resusitated. The character does not die, is not dead.

But though that is sufficient for me, I can also show you a second exception to your rule about 0 essence which I don't think even you can deny. The Essence Loss weakness text reads as follows:

See? There's another instance where a creature hits 0 essence and is not dead but instead "will die unless X" - an important difference. Yet by your current argument, this could not be. And wendigo have the same Essence Loss weakness. Are they also risen dead?

Vampires are not walking corpses. They are living, breathing beings with an infection.

An ad hominem is where you can't deal with someone's argument and instead lash out and attack the person saying it. I have not done that and feel I have been addressing your argument quite adequately. Whilst saying that what I am arguing is beyond "ad ignorantiam" (I assume that means I'm beyond being ignorant) might, ironically be an ad hominem on your part. I don't think anyone here thinks I'm uninformed, I hope. And don't call it "latching on to a lack of evidence" when I'm quoting a line that actually says what I'm saying, please. That's an Ad Misrepresentmium.

Well I'm politely pointing out what I think is wrong with your interpretation of the rules. Quite effectively, I think.

Regards,

-Khadim.

Ahhhh. You tread into dangerous waters, my friend. Don't get caught in between a married couple!

Seriously though, it sounds as though the wife was about to change to a different archetype altogether and was convinced a second time by her husband to stick with what she had even though she fancied changing. I can see why a sort of GM-led character change is actually an elegant solution. And perhaps in the circumstances giving her the edge of a powerful character type (vampire) could actually be desirable. It will certainly both make her more effective and give her a more starring role.

One thing I'll say is that the character archetypes are not that rigid in 4th edition. The lines can easily blur into each other and a rigger can easily double as a hacker or samural. If you wanted a less drastic approach, you could encourage her to adapt herself in some ways. You could even drop in an enemy with salvageable wired reflexes or something like that. But I'll say that not all of your other options were that bad. There's probably some middle ground between where you are now and "the rigger show." I presume that she has some nice drones on hand, so a few stand-up fights will really let her show off her stuff. Who else gets to wield three LMGs in combat at the same time? If rigger has been interpreted in your game as "drives the van" then there's a lot more you can do with her. Even a little hacking so that she can turn the target site's automated security on itself can be done from time to time.

As to killing the character off and creating a new one, if you think you can avoid the husband making her play another rigger, then I say go for it. You can even weigh in saying that you don't think there's much room for a rigger in the adventures that you plan to be running. That's perfectly justifiable and can be done with a very innocent expression.

But I can see why you came up with the vampire idea. It does make sense. I just think that it could be risky. Still, you sound like you know what you're doing.

-K.

It's not a "lack of statement." The infection power states that the creature "enters a state of near death" and that it's essence has risen back to 1 by the end of a 24 hour period. That's a direct contradiciton and different to your implication (second time now) that it's simply not saying anything that supports the idea. And I've already shown a second example where the "never" statement is explicitly contradicted in the main book.

Street Magic explicitly states that the original spirit is destroyed by the inhabiting spirit which gains "complete control over its body and some access to its memories" so no - no continuity of the self.

Well that's the point of debate. You say "die" but not everyone agrees with that. In real life, people can lie there cold and inert and still be alive. There have been some pretty terrifying cases of false confirmation of death for the poor person who wakes up in a morgue. Given that vampires have spirits (or astral forms or whatever you choose to call it) and can be assenssed as such then either this spirit came from somewhere else or its the same person as before. There's never to my knowledge been any cannon implication of a spirit from elsewhere taking residence in the vampire's body (that would be shedim), so it seems pretty likely its the person's own spirit continuing on. That and the continuation of personality and morality from before and after infection suggest the answer is "yes - still you."

Now that said, I think we're probably about done with this debate now. I doubt I'm going to convince Frank on this one. And it will take something more than has been said so far to persuade me that the evidence doesn't support vampires not being animated corpses. So I propose we now shelve it pending radical new insights. Everyone who is merely reading this thread has no doubt made up their own minds either from reading my posts, Frank's posts, or more likely already made up their own minds and don't give a toss what either of us say.

Regards,

-Khadim.

Y'know, I've had to take my 16-month-old daughter to the emergency room twice since Thursday night, and neither time did I make it out of there before 1:30 in the morning. The latest trip ended somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 AM. I haven't slept well, and my back hurts like a sonuvabitch.

I feel like absolute shit, otherwise I might have just let this pass.

My. Name. Is. Not. Pat.

This has been in my sig for years now, and is one of the few things besides civility I ask of anybody here. My apologies to the mods for raising my voice in such a manner, but most of you know me well enough to know it was probably coming.

As much as I tend to side with the "vampires are dead things" crowd, even I am enough of a realist to know that this isn't quite the case.

That said, yes, vampires do in fact breathe. In fact, they have a weakness when separated for oxygen. So even your vampire friends can stop and take a deep breath.

Also wouldn't the fact that you start out, upon becoming a vampire, with 1 essence mean that your magic has gone down substantially, and for most this would mean burning out anyway?

Just to go back and comment on this...

Nemesis also had a Quickness of 30, most likely due to the creator of said adventure misunderstanding the 'N x 5' rating under Quickness for Vampires to mean it multiplied the original character's quickness, rather than stating that vampires have a movement multiplier of 5.

Then again, Stephen Kenson also has cybered vampires in his non-official Shadowrun adventure featuring a vampire cabal. (See his home page at talon studios.)

Actually, I don't know you at all, but if you feel that way about it - OK. We all have our ticks. Patrick it is.

A vampire goes unconcious and lies there dormant for up to months at a time if it doesn't have any oxygen for over 10 minutes. While the vampire definite can breathe, it obviously doesn't do so in the way a human does. Honestly, I've never understood why that has always been listed under the weaknesses. When a human gets cut off from air for 6 minutes they are dead. You can't blow air on their corpse three months later and have them roll out of bed with bad hair and a worse attitude.

The fact that a vampire can do that - stop breathing and merely go into dormancy instead of having lactic acid build up in their brain until they die - that's a pretty sweet power. I can't do that. It's like when the Vampire in the 4th ed Champions book was listed with a Disadvantage that he was paralyzed by being staked in the heart - you do that to anyone else and they die. It's not a disadvantage, it's a power. That trait has always been misfiled.

Actually, the fact that your Essence has been drained to 0 means that anyone who isn't an Initiate would have already lost all of their Magic. If a Vampire is a magician it is because they awaken upon becoming a Vampire. Any magical talent that the human used to have is by definition destroyed. The fact that there are non-initiated Vampire Magicians at all is a powerful argument that vampires are not actually the people whose memories and forms they share.

Remember: once you burn out you can't ever get your magic back. So the vampire's magic is not your magic. It's a pretty good argument that the vampire is not you.

I've always assumed that this was a typographical error, since the character in question was supposed to add 20 points to his Strength (Strength is C+E and Enhanced Physical Attributes adds E again to his Strength) and yet he was listed with a Strength of 12. That would be legal if and only if he started with a C of -8. Personally, I find that unlikely.

Regardless, its clear that his stat line is jacked up. You can pick your reasoning, whether it's dyslexia or stupidity. But I don't think the guard dogs have a run multiple error in them.

The question was about a Flesh Form, not a Hybrid Form. The relevent quote is:

So... continuity of self? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

That's the core question in either case. Depending upon how you define the self, it'll either count or not. Keep in mind hat any definition based on the continuity of the spirit would disqualify the Flesh Form Insect Merge (whose Essence has been supplanted by the spirit), but it would also disqualify the vampire (whose Essence has by definition been consumed in its entirety by another vampire).

-Frank

Yeah, I'm trying to tread lightly in this area. I didn't think it would be an issue to change characters, but se la vie I guess.

I've been trying to do some encouraging of use of drones (smugglers don't start with any, so she just got some for this second run), but they've got a TM in the party who I've found out is way more than capable. No more "TM's are so nerfed" comments from me . But even with this encouragement, she doesn't really try and insert her self into the game, she's pretty much uses my game as a chance to catch up on chores. Perhaps I'm going to lose this interest battle no matter what. If so, then I may as well lose through action than inaction.

I'm glad I at least sound like I know what I'm doing



One more question to throw on the fire since I'm here:

Is there any limit to how much essence a vampire can get? 12 seems to be the unspoken limit, the book stats essence as "2D6-1" meaning 1-11 average 6. But the current characters ess is 2.8, so how ever it's calculated, she probably won't have a giant essence battery unless there is just no limit to how much one can store.

A critter with Essence Drain can drain up to twice its natural maximum in Essence (SR4, p. 288). A human's natural maximum is 6, so they can Essence Drain themselves up to 12 (this is the problem with Blood Spirits, since their natural maximum actually increases when their Force does - so much profanity).

Cyberware reduces Essence, but not the Natural Maximum (SR4, p. 84) - so Vampirism + Cyberware = teh win. Note also that regardless of what her Essence was as a human, the newly created Vampire would begin life with an Essence of 1 (SR4 p. 289).

-Frank

That was kind of what she said too.

Thanks for the info on that, I am concidering changing that for my game to just being 2xEssence rather than Max Essence. I'll contemplate on that for the next week or two before deciding. It would certainly curb in the crazyness of boost powers.

Thanks!

So...
PC = Living Creature
Vampire = Living Creature

PC --> Dead --> Vampire

Whether
(PC Personality = Vampire Personality) Debate with arguments on both sides, all depends on your definition of person.

Is someone with the exact same set of memories, but now in a body with vastly different needs and capabilities really the same person?

Nature (if you call turninginto a vampire natural...) versus Nurture!

Never ends.

BTW, if you really want a Vampire PC in your game, its nothing more then simply saying, "You Died!, now you wake up a Vampire!"

You do not need explicit rules to justify it. Have Fun!. Be Flexible!

Nononono! It's "You enter a state of near death! Now you wake up a vampire!"

Your predilection for the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit derves you ill, Frank. I contend that here, you're wrong. Infection is clearly intended as an exception to the basic rule, and has been since time immemorial. And yes, I have gone back and read all 4 editions and their Infection powers. Khadim is in the right here, and you are in the wrong.

That's about as unambiguous as it gets. They aren't dead. Even after all these years of bitching about it, I've come to that conclusion: One of my core beliefs about HMHVV was wrong...and I'm getting paid for this kind of thing.

And states quite clearly in its text that it is an exception to basic Essence rules you're so fond of quoting.

You're assuming that the vampire would automatically go for the boost in Magic and not some other ability score. True, that's what the initial example called for, but it's not a foregone conclusion that this is how it's going to work out. Could the vampire have a few Initiate grades? Possibly. Could he also add some Essence to his Magic to make it even more frightening? Sure...but he might also boost one of his Drain stats.

Your assumption appears to be that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. The world is going to kick you in the gonads for that some day.
[quote]While we're on the subject: anyone else notice that as written Vampirism is a one-way ticket to burnout if you don't spend your time maxxing out the Essence? Essence Loss states that you suffer the normal rules for MAgic reduction when your Essence falls. The normal rules for Magic Loss are that you lose a point of Magic permanently every time you lose a point of Essence below 6 (SR4, p. 62). So as long as you bounce from 6 to 12 like a good little min/maxxer there's no problem. But if you drop to 5, your base Magic attribute drops by 1 forever. You don't get it back if your Essence goes back to 6. But if it drops to 5 again, you lose again. And so on until you don't have a Magic Attribute and can no longer drain Essence. A few months later, you'll hit 0 and of course die.[quote]
You don't have to have a Magic attribute to drain Essence. It certainly helps by giving you more dice to roll, but it's not a requirement.

Also, not everyone is "a good little min/maxxer," and your assumption that everyone is or should be is somewhat insulting.

Baseline HMHVV carriers are sterile; there's some indication in-game that Jarka-Criscione carriers are quite fecund. I'll try to find my references for you one of these days when I'm a little less tense.

If by "beyond death," you mean are they immortal? Sort of. They are immune to age, pathogens, poisons...but not to a bullet or six to the head (unless the shooter is just having a really, really bad day).

It's not at all ambiguous. Go and read it again.

Not a mod, but this borders on the insulting. Just my read, of course; I've been wrong before.

And I don't see it being any weirder than you latching onto another sentence elsewhere in the book and using it as the basis for your argument. Just because the letter of the law doesn't equal the spirit of the law doesn't make the letter any more correct, Frank.

You ask Khadim what he's trying to accomplish. I could ask you the same question.

Something I plan on addressing; there are some pretty clear exceptions to Magic Loss where vampirism (and Essence draining in general) are concerned which are not well spelled out.

There has been a line in my signature file since about 2003, if not earlier, specifically stating that my name isn't Pat and thanking people in advance for not using that particular form of my name. This signature appears in all of my posts on these forums. Since you've replied to more than one of my posts, you're bound to have seen it.

All that being said: Thank you.

You and I clearly have a different idea of what is and what isn't weakness or disadvantage. I'm not certain how much of a reasonable conversation we're ever going to have.

Yes, definitely going to need to address some things with Rob....

It's just as likely that it is you, since you have your own memories and remember the experience.

Much as it galls me to admit this, Frank's right here. In 1st and 2nd edition, vampires were insanely strong. I think they were more reasonably strong, and better fit the intent and spirit of the Enhanced Physical Attributes power, in 3rd edition.

No. It was an exception in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition. The rules were reworked in 4th edition so that there would be no exception. That's why the vampire awakens in SR4 with an Essence of ONE instead of an Essence of ZERO like he did in previous editions.

Previous editions had an edge case exception where newly created vampires were allowed to survive with an Essence of Zero for a short period of time so long as they started draining Essence from someone pretty soon. That was very poorly explained and existed as a very confusing exception to the general rule.

The SR4 version has been revamped so that there is no exception and the rules explicitly note that there isn't an exception any more.

Essence 0 = Dead
Essence 1 = Alive

The Human goes to Essence 0 and dies.
The Vampire is created with an Essence of 1 and is thereafter alive.
If the Vampire hits Essence 0, he dies.

The old confusing part where things were "dead" or apparently dead is all gone. This is an important fundamental change to the rules of SR4 that has little overall effect on how Vampires look or feel - but has major rules implications. And since you're probably going to be writing some Vampire rules for SR4, you should understand both those new rules and why they are there.

-Frank

you're kidding, right? the whole thing with SR vampires, up until now, is that they have just been guys with a disease. they expicitly weren't "undead", with all the baggage that entails. the entire point of your argument is that they are the classic undead tortured eurotrash boring crap that gets featured in every other setting under the sun. yay.

In my defense, I wandered in late, but having said my piece, I'm quite done now.

That's just it though. We don't have to care what any of them think, really. Not even when their ideas make it into canon. If you want your vampires dead, they're dead. If they're alive, they're alive.

The only place it matters is at your table, and the only people you have to worry about agreeing with are your GM and/or your fellow players.

If you want to participate in the fiesta, go for it. Otherwise, just ignore it and go to a thread you are interested in.

(Not necessarily speaking at Halabis here, and I'm not just trying to be pedantic. I just thought it needed saying.)

No offense to Patrick or Frank, or any other writer. It's super cool to get your ideas put into the game. But truly the extent to which anything in the books matters is that extent to which the reader/player wants it to. *shrug*

I thought I was done here, and I intend to be. But I'm going to address this one last point because it is factually wrong and somebody might be misled

Vampires have the Weakness "Essence Loss" defined on pg. 291 of the SR4 BBB.

The text, reproduced in its entirety, is as follows:

The bold part is my own emphasis. A vampire that hits 0 essence is not dead, it is dying. And we might (and I do) assume that the same applies to the near death state of a proto-vampire, before it's essence has risen of its own accord back to 1.

And barring anything new being said, I'm finished. I hope the original poster derived some useful information from the thread. I'm still willing to post on that subject.

Thanks,

-K.

No. They are not undead. They are alive, but the human they were died.

That's the deal. It's a well defined multi-step process.

1. Alive Human
   
2. Dead Human (Essence 0)
   
3. Make Infection check (if successful, continue to step 4.)
   
4. Partially Vampiric thing at Near Death (Essence 1)
   
5. Awake Vampire who's really hungry (Essence 1).
   

The part that has been removed is the old ambiguous stuff meant to allow gamemasters who wanted vampires to be walking corpses or gamemasters who wanted vampires to be tragically diseased normal humans to have common ground. Also removed was the special exception where vampires had a brief but undefined period when they could run around attacking people at Essence zero.

Now it's explicit, and it doesn't contradict what the other rules say. And that's the SR4 way of doing things - minimize rules exceptions and simplify where possible. This is complicated:

That's incomprehensible, but of course it was supposed to be evocative rather than explanatory. If they didn't ddie but merely apparently died, how could they "return to life"? If their Essence was 0, why weren't they dead?

The written air quotes are gone. It's now a relatively simple affair that doesn't contradict other rules. Heck, they even threw down a set of rules to determine how long it takes to drain Essence (back in the day it took "some minutes").

None taken.

-Frank

No offense taken; I happen to agree with that assessment completely.

yeah, see, we call that "being undead". the human they were has died, they are a new creature, blah blah blah.

except that they went right back and re-introduced the 0-but-not-dead mechanic with the Essence Loss weakness. so you get all the bad stuff (undead vampires) and none of the good stuff (consistent rules).

Well, its a major pet peeve of mine when people present things that aren't facts as facts. Its annoying as hell, and it causes people who might not know better to believe the person who cant keep their opinions and their facts differentiated.

Another problem is that it makes it impossible to ever discuss vampires on this board. Every time anyone mentions vampires or ghouls Frank comes in and starts railing about them. I happen to think that the vampires/ghouls and HMHVV and how they are presented in Shadowrun are one of the most interesting aspects of the setting. Unfortunately I can't come here and discuss them because inevitably whenever a conversation starts up about them Frank comes in and ruins it.


Also, can't some one just ask who ever it was that wrote that section of the rule book what their intent was? It would do wonders to end the argument.

Let her come across a couple of drones.

While not quite as spec'ed to it as the 'Drone Rigger', she has most of the skills and if somehow the team stumbles across of few drones, she has alot more options 'with the team'


Taxi Cab driver not real fun, unless you are playing Transporter[i]Runner[/i}; however, it is a vitial role often, but given a few reasonable (perhaps better then she could afford and with maybe a few story lines involving them having them) drones could go along way to allowing her to stay in the action with the team.

Means that under the basic rules a 'character' is dead / unplayable / not in existence as soon as they reach 0 essence.


Now the 'body' might still live for a little while, and it might even be possible to resuscitate it (through infection or cybermancy, or elven dragon magic ..).


Thus both statements are entirely correct.

a 'character' (as opposed to NPC, person, body, henchman, thug, plot device, etc) is DEAD when they reach essence 0 (by the basic rules).

a body/person is near death at essence 0 and generally will die very shortly without some exceptional actions.


Seems to be to fit perfect.

The Intent of the statement is clear. PLAYER are not meant to have CHARACTERS with essence 0.

Clearly things with Infection power are meant to be able to reproduce and given the in game flavor are not 'undead'. So organisms can live with essence 0.

Just with no additional supplemental rules (either yet to be published, or 'house') player characters cease to be the instant they hit essence 0.


Peace

Yeah, she's got a few right now, I'm going to hold off on vamping out any body for another run or two, just to see if she warms up to the character at all once she gets some more toys.