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ElFenrir
Seeing several threads in my time here on varied edges and flaws(and good/bad things about them....definately a lot of problems to be had), i was curious to know some thoughs on varied ones were. Which are some that you like and have fun with? Do you hate any of them? Think they all are unbalanced? Think some are?

I for one put them in varied categories. Liked, Disliked, Like but they have some possible big problems, and Indifferent.



As a GM or player, i tend to like the ones where i can create plot hooks(edges or flaws), or small ones that really don't upset anything. Disliked ones are the ones that A. are just overpowered for what they give(rare, luckily), B. Ones that are unbalanced in the opposite way...they simply cause so much trouble that im loathe to introduce them unless something very, very bad will happen. Im indifferent on some of them, the 'boring' ones that can't really be written about or abused either.

Hunted-6 is a big troublemaker. Not only for the one character, but for the team. If a character has hunted-6, its daaaamned hard to write it so the others dont end up tied up in the whole mess either, as if someone is that damned hated anyone they associate with is probably in trouble as well. And if no one else wanted any flaws, in a way, they are saddled with this one. Someone wanting this one i would probably try to talk into either dropping it down a few levels, or make SURE the rest of the party does not care. Even then, its iffy.

Things like allergies can go either way....severe allergy to ebola is just dumb, but severe allergy to air and skin would result in the characters early death. A few allergies are dependent on campaign(Sunlight in a Winter Arctic campaign vs. sunlight in a desert campaign.)

Amnesia can be a lot of fun. I typically only have problems here if its done from sheer laziness.

Any flaw that requires either A. Ignoring it or B. Killing the character and possibly harming the party in the process has problems as well. (Id have3 a talk with someone wanting to take the Cortex Bomb flaw, but then again, there are ways to possibly have it removed.)

Sensitive System and Bio-rejection get the ire of some GMs, but i mind these very little. Vat-grown replacements are very expensive.

Incompetences are all dependent on the campaign,IMO. Boating in a city campaign=abused. Boating in pirate campaign=just fine.

Edge-wise, i have less problems. Honestly, Aptitude, giving one bonus die, is not so damned overpowered as some people say, i don't see the issue with this one.

Ive seen some stacked Edges that can cause a few issues...but non combative ones. Mix Faces with Friends Abroad, Friends in High Places, and any other Contact ones and you have something there that might get out of hand.

Things like Perfect Time, Tech School Education, and a few others im indifferent on. They never really threw anything off one way or another.

Infirm is pretty harsh. Taken at low levels and it's something for nothing. At higher levels it becomes a bit more crippling.

Hung out to Dry is another one that i find a bit hard to work in. I dont know many teams who would want to keep a guy like this around.

all in all im pretty lean, but i tend to have more problems with ones that are TOO bad for the character, rather than the other way around.

Anyone else have peeves/likes?
Kagetenshi
Aptitude gives a bonus -1 TN, not a much weaker bonus die.

That said, while certain combinations of edges can be arguably exploitable (but only arguably—one of my players has a Face with so many social edges that she's got a -7 TN to most social tests, but it still hasn't broken things), in general I'd agree—flaws are more likely to be too crippling for their cost than edges are to be too good for their cost.

~J
ElFenrir
QUOTE
Aptitude gives a bonus -1 TN, not a much weaker bonus die.


Whoops, made a mistake there. wink.gif But i can see what you mean, -7 is significant, but hey, if it doesn't break, it doesn't break. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Well, it's not totally non-broken, since it means she gets a net -1 to convince someone Neutral to do something disastrous to them, but that's somewhat reasonable. She's still got a +5 TN to convince someone who is an open enemy to do something disastrous.

Of course, that's assuming she's using Etiquette. If she tries to Fast Talk him, more modifiers come into play and it gets more complex (but she gets the additional -2 for Charisma ? 7). It's powerful, but not flat-out broken.

~J
Lindt
Unlike say, a social adept. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
Indeed, unlike a social adept. At -10 TN (all those edges plus whatever the ridiculous Social Adept power was), she'd be looking at a +2 TN to convince her worst enemy to do something absolutely disastrous to that enemy. Add on the fact that she could get another six dice on the cheap, and you've got a recipe for Flat Out Broken.

~J
ElFenrir
Which is why, as a GM, i tend to prefer when my players bring in Panther Cannons than fully loaded Social Adepts. At least you can stop the PAC. grinbig.gif
mfb
i hate the flaws that are so detrimental as to make a character useless. like Liar, for instance. every time the character addresses someone, the GM rolls 1d6 to see if the character "gets caught lying". if he "gets caught" six times (and the chances go up every time he fails), the person will no longer ever deal with that character. if it's a contact, you lose it permanently. all this for the low, low price of 2 freakin' character points. what the hell, man?
Shev
Yeah, liar never really caught on with my group. I got pretty sick of seeing allergies, phobias, flashbacks, and dark secrets, though. Not so much because they were overpowered, but everyone and their mother had one.

One flaw I liked that I never saw quite enough was Gremlins.
Kagetenshi
Indeed. And then there's stuff like Bad Reputation, which gives you one build point per permanent +1 TN to every single Social skill! The same problem applies to Uncouth, but Uncouth is basically Bad Reputation with just the second level—I'm not sure why they bothered to include them both, they're identical except for BR's flexible cost. Then there's Scorched, which granted only effects the rather uncommon case of psychotropic ice conditioning, but what does it do? Does it give you a nasty modifier? No, for one build point you don't even get a roll.

And that's not considering the ones which vary in price based on what you are, in Shadowrun's classless world. Blind is only -2 for all magically active characters, including physads who don't get Astral Perception without paying a decent amount. Then there's Night Blindness, which is only -1 for Riggers and Deckers (but apparently the Awakened are just fine, despite still having access, in many cases, to astral perception). What happens if my character gets a deck or a VCR-1 post-chargen? Do I immediately have to pay ten karma?

Gah.

~J
ElFenrir
It's really interesting to see some comments here, generally i hear GMs discussing how their players are powergaming by taking flaws for more points. I think these GMs need to see just what they are taking. I dunno, perhaps their problem is they are taking them 'for points' instead of 'for characters'. I dunno, disadvantage for a cost seems fair to me, but maybe im one of those lax GMs. I only start raising eyebrows when 'grabbing a few points' becomes ''trying to outdo the rest of the group or break the system''.


Another interesting one is Sensitive System/Bio Rejection. Sensitive is -3 to non magical, -2 to magical(i guess assuming most mages dont take cyber...and if i remember correctly.). Bio rejection is -5 regular...and once again, -2 magical. Bio rejection is pretty hairy indeed if you engage in dangerous activity that could cost certain limbs and organs; bio rejection does mean that you forcibly, eject anything that is not of your cells, possibly killing you in the process. You're basically taking ''severe allergy to anything body related not of my DNA+1'' with this one, and im trying to figure out why it's so piddly for the magic using characters. This is a situation, unless someone is a serious thespian, a mage character would happily take the lesser of the two evils here.

And yeah, Bad Rep is a doozy. Dark Secret is a rather interesting one. The way it's described, you have a secret so terrible that if it's found out, were talking possibly gaining Hung Out to Dry(-4), and possibly Hunted, aformentioned Bad Rep, and other things...all at the awesome costs of 2 points. Im not sure why a moderate allergy to platinum gets more than this one. nyahnyah.gif It's really cool for a plot hook, to work in, and can be an awesome background piece(in addition coupled with other flaws like Amnesia), but it IS a bit cheap for what it can do to you.

I guess i think they both are a good idea, but need a bit of retuning, which ive been wanting to do for some time now, but don't want to throw it off too much. I think a good starting place is to write down Edges/Flaws that i think are worth/cost too much/little and go from there.
Shev
Actually, it wasn't so much that my players were powergaming (though a couple DID go overboard with allergies). It's just that EVERYONE wanted a Dark Secret, and to have Flashbacks about said secret. It's fun to RP, but it gets old after the third or fourth time. nyahnyah.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
Dark Secret, Allergy, Flashbacks and Phobia are all best tied to the same triggering substance. Even better when the dark secret has to do with some event related to a soy allergy that still causes terrifying flashbacks.
Kyoto Kid
...had two characters with Flashbacks, Leela and Gracie, my MET2000 merc. Both had dealt with terrible experiences that affected them.

Leela witnessed her family killed by a Serbian Attack Helicopter that opened up on Jelacic Square a day after she performed a stunning recital at the age of only 8. Her trigger: seeing armed helicopters/rotodrones overhead or performing in front of an audience (this was a bit campaign specific)

Gracie was originally an orphan. She and her unit were present when a school full of children was destroyed by a Islamic terrorist holding them hostage with 10 kilos of C-12 strapped to him. Her trigger: seeing dead/dying children.

The flaw has to fit the backstory to work.

Another interesting and somewhat related flaw was from SOTA 2064: Incomplete Deprogramming. In a sense this is like a twisted version of Multiple personality disorder. My Fallen Angel character Night Angel had this one. Just a one too many Aliasofts & pre mission "conditionings".

"...OK, I'll open the door so you guys can slip in...no waitaminute, I'm supposed to be the sniper, I'll take my rifle & cover you from the bushes over there while you try to spring the lock...no waitaminiute I'm actually the demolitionist, I think I have some C-12 & a couple radio detonators, we'll just blow the door open... no waitaminute...

She was so much fun...
Cain
I've always had an issue with Day Job. I could never figure out if it was meant to be an Edge or a Flaw. I mean, it's technically a flaw that earns you money!
mfb
yeah, edges should be good and flaws should be bad. that flaw should have been Preoccupied--same time requirements, no pay.
ElFenrir
Day Job is a rather confusing one. On one hand, it earns you money, so it technically should be an Edge. On the other hand, you work for money like anyone else, so it's neither and edge or a flaw. On the third hand(heh), the job will probably end up tying you up for a run, you have to end up calling out for made up reasons, people could get suspicious, etc, so this could indeed be the flaw part.

I suppose it would be interesting to divide it up. for the Edge version, you have a rather non demanding job that pays, you can call out easily, lean boss, work from home if necessary(computers), etc, and it's unlikely to tie you up or put you in danger. the Flaw version could be more high profile, require more days there, deals with more people, perhaps deals with some higher-ups that might be unhappy if they found out what you did at nights, and the like.


I'd also vote that Dark Secret could be a ''leveled'' flaw, like many others. The bigger the secret, the more damage it could do if it got out, the more its worth. A -1 Dark Secret might be that you sold out a few old buddies years ago for drug use but you did it for money, and might result in some sort of distance between a mutual contact, some trust issues you have with some contacts til you build it back up, etc. The biggie(-6), you were probably one of the conspirators for Dunk's assassination as the third shooter or something. nyahnyah.gif(and -6 might still not be enough for that one. grinbig.gif )
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
It's really interesting to see some comments here, generally i hear GMs discussing how their players are powergaming by taking flaws for more points.

I should add: for me at least, one thing that induces "powergaming" (taking flaws that have relatively little effect or can be avoided) is that there are so few flaws I can take that both have a legitimate effect on me and aren't so crippling as to be ruled out immediately. I need the points, I don't have a fair exchange available to me to get them, so I look for an unfair exchange in my favour rather than against me.

~J
nezumi
I don't like allergies or phobias, since they can be free points, nor incompetence. I hate 'looks good and knows it' because it's NOT an actual edge, but a lot of people take it anyway and I always have to tell them they're stupid. My favorite flaws would have to be Sasquatch-looking, Paranoia, Hallucinations, Time Traveler and Deceased.
Kagetenshi
Deceased was a good flaw, but it started being too risky once Shedim showed up. Now Obliterated is more worth it.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nezumi @ May 5 2007, 07:44 AM)
Time Traveler
Luddite
I've always appreciated Amnesia in players. It's hard for me not to giggle like a maniac whenever a player considers it. "You want me to write up your background for you? Okay, your name is Ringer McPlotBitch..."
nezumi
I've increased the point value for all flaws that let me have fun with them (including amnesia), and decreased them for stupid things like phobia:Cthulhu. I'm actually pretty upset that SR4 dumped all the mental flaws because really, they're far more amusing.
Grinder
QUOTE (Luddite)
I've always appreciated Amnesia in players. It's hard for me not to giggle like a maniac whenever a player considers it. "You want me to write up your background for you? Okay, your name is Ringer McPlotBitch..."

grinbig.gif That happened in my current ED campaign. A blood elf with amnesia is so great.

As for flaws & edges, have a look at the thread in the SR4 forum, that has some great new ones.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (nezumi)
I don't like allergies or phobias, since they can be free points, nor incompetence.  I hate 'looks good and knows it' because it's NOT an actual edge, but a lot of people take it anyway and I always have to tell them they're stupid.  My favorite flaws would have to be Sasquatch-looking, Paranoia, Hallucinations, Time Traveler and Deceased.

...not if the GM stays on top of things and disallows silly or stupid ones right off the bat like Allergy to Shellfish or Fear of Cats. (Actually knew two fellow players who's characters had these).

My rule is, if it will not affect the character at least 50% of the time, it is not a true flaw and just background colour (and worth zero points).
Kagetenshi
I love how the allergies that actually exist are the "silly or stupid" ones.

~J
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...not if the GM stays on top of things and disallows silly or stupid ones right off the bat like Allergy to Shellfish or Fear of Cats. (Actually knew two fellow players who's characters had these).

Well, the fear of cats would actually be applicable in the Shadowrun Missions; IIRC, one of the fixers in there is a SURGEd catgirl... cool.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
All the flaws you'll ever need

Nothing impresses the GM like listing Critical Apeirophobia, Cacophobia, Dipsophobia and Didaskaleinophobia. Until that just means you are uneducated, superficial, sober and critically terrified by a specific theoretical concept.

The advantage is, listed as phobias it's worth 16 BP.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I love how the allergies that actually exist are the "silly or stupid" ones.

~J

They're only silly and stupid until someone convinces the GM that Peanut is an elemental effect. Then every mage you meet will be throwing peanutballs and peanutbolts.
Luddite
QUOTE
My rule is, if it will not affect the character at least 50% of the time, it is not a true flaw and just background colour (and worth zero points).


I have to disagree. Sure a point or two is valuable, but I've found that the costs for allergies and incompetencies are pretty balanced, provided that both are limited to one per player. Okay, Allergy: Something That Will Never Come Up is stupid and worthless, but anything that could theoretically impact the character such as shellfish, animal dander, or pollen to name a few will be irritating (or worse, depending on the level) some times. A +1 TN 50% of the time should be worth more than 3 points IMO.
Glyph
QUOTE (nezumi)
I don't like allergies or phobias, since they can be free points, nor incompetence.  I hate 'looks good and knows it' because it's NOT an actual edge, but a lot of people take it anyway and I always have to tell them they're stupid.  My favorite flaws would have to be Sasquatch-looking, Paranoia, Hallucinations, Time Traveler and Deceased.

Good Looking and Knows It is on the Edges Table, so it is a "real" Edge, although the GM can still disallow any Edges or Flaws he wants to. But your players aren't "stupid" if they take it, unless you've already told them it's not allowed.


Allergies, phobias, and incompetencies are only broken if GM oversight is lax, and people take allergies and phobias for things that will rarely if ever be encountered, or incompetency in a skill that they won't ever improve beyond 1, or use at all.


Overall, Edges and Flaws aren't too broken, but there are some Edges that are not worth the points (such as Adrenaline Surge), and many Flaws that are not worth taking because they are too debilitating.


The potential abuse comes when someone buys up the best Edges and balances them with either the aforementioned allergies, phobias, and incompetencies, OR picks mental flaws that essentially give the character an excuse to play a bully. "Hey, my character is impulsive, vindictive, and a combat monster, so you better not sass off to him."
Kagetenshi
You know, I think a good fix for Incompetence would be to set its cost based on the level of the skill that one is being made Incompetent in at chargen (before adjusting for Specialization)—something like being worth -(Skill level-1) or -(Skill level-2) points. It then becomes a way to get a reduced-cost skill that you're naturally bad at, rather than an opportunity to snag a free point (1 point in Underwater Basketweaving + Incompetence (Underwater Basketweaving) = 1 point for other stuff).

~J
nezumi
QUOTE (Glyph)
QUOTE (nezumi)
I don't like allergies or phobias, since they can be free points, nor incompetence.  I hate 'looks good and knows it' because it's NOT an actual edge, but a lot of people take it anyway and I always have to tell them they're stupid.  My favorite flaws would have to be Sasquatch-looking, Paranoia, Hallucinations, Time Traveler and Deceased.

Good Looking and Knows It is on the Edges Table, so it is a "real" Edge, although the GM can still disallow any Edges or Flaws he wants to. But your players aren't "stupid" if they take it, unless you've already told them it's not allowed.


1) However, 'Good Looking and Knows it' is NOT listed in the actual listing of edges, it is only listed in the section describing how a GM can make up new edges as an example.

2) I didn't say that my players actually are stupid, just that I call them stupid. What's the fun of GMing if you can't insult your players???
Glyph
I was talking about the tables on page 31, where it, and its Flaw version, are both listed. Although I prefer the SR4 name for it, "First Impression", to "Good-looking and Knows It", which is a bit too cumbersome.
Kagetenshi
But GLaKi is so close to Glaaki…

~J
nezumi
Yes, I know what you meant. Doesn't SR3 have a 'first impression' edge as well? I seem to recollect it did (although perhaps under a different name). That was a good edge, although rarely used for what I believe is its intended purpose (fitting into unusual social situations, rather than negotiating with a new Johnson, which is where it generally comes into play).
Kagetenshi
Friendly Face, yes.

~J
mfb
good looking and knows it / ugly and doesn't care aren't real? what does "real" mean, then? i mean, they were obviously intended to be used, or they wouldn't be on the table.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Glyph)

Allergies, phobias, and incompetencies are only broken if GM oversight is lax, and people take allergies and phobias for things that will rarely if ever be encountered, or incompetency in a skill that they won't ever improve beyond 1, or use at all.

On the other hand, from a role playing perspective, if I started learning, say, SCUBA diving and it turned out that I was Incompetent in it (I could tell I was just much slower and more accident prone than all the other students) I might get discouraged and stop taking classes. I might also avoid SCUBA diving activities in the future whenever possible.
Cain
QUOTE (Luddite @ May 5 2007, 01:14 PM)
QUOTE
My rule is, if it will not affect the character at least 50% of the time, it is not a true flaw and just background colour (and worth zero points).


I have to disagree. Sure a point or two is valuable, but I've found that the costs for allergies and incompetencies are pretty balanced, provided that both are limited to one per player. Okay, Allergy: Something That Will Never Come Up is stupid and worthless, but anything that could theoretically impact the character such as shellfish, animal dander, or pollen to name a few will be irritating (or worse, depending on the level) some times. A +1 TN 50% of the time should be worth more than 3 points IMO.

I had a player who took allergy: Dairy products. I'm sure he thought he was getting free points. However, at his first meet, he was offered selections from the cheese tray, which he accepted. Twice. vegm.gif From then on, he made it a point to double-check anything he was eating, which led to some interesting developments at meets-- you generally don't turn down the food a Johnson is offering you.

Moral of the story: you can make anything come up, often enough, if you're clever about it.
Lindt
I had a PC that was seriously allergic to Soy products. I agreed with my GM about jacking my lifestyle costs up 33% would be fair.
Made shopping in the cheep parts of town hard though.
fistandantilus4.0
I've done that as well. Just required the character to have a moderate lifestyle cost, without the nicer home.
Glyph
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Glyph @ May 5 2007, 03:25 PM)

Allergies, phobias, and incompetencies are only broken if GM oversight is lax, and people take allergies and phobias for things that will rarely if ever be encountered, or incompetency in a skill that they won't ever improve beyond 1, or use at all.

On the other hand, from a role playing perspective, if I started learning, say, SCUBA diving and it turned out that I was Incompetent in it (I could tell I was just much slower and more accident prone than all the other students) I might get discouraged and stop taking classes. I might also avoid SCUBA diving activities in the future whenever possible.

In game terms, though, a Flaw needs to be something that actually hinders the character. If a character has incompetence in a skill that they not only avoid using (understandable), but which also doesn't really need to ever come up for that character, then it's simply a free point.

Examples would be decking for a neo-luddite mage, heavy weapons for an infirm decker, and so on. The Flaw states that the GM should highlight areas of competence or incompetence at least once a game session, and that's reasonable, but I would settle for it being something that comes up once every several game sessions or so. Your example of SCUBA diving wouldn't be that bad for any character, at least in a port city like Seattle where water-based missions will occasionally come up.
Enigma
I had a game full of massive powergamers who really gave the SR3 (and SR2) rules a run for their money. I remember the game session where the Shadowrun Companion was unleashed - they actually forfeited playing any sort of game to spend the whole six hours fiddling the rules as much as possible.

There was the character who had Incompetence (Sailing Boats) in a Seattle-based campaign. We of course ran the full gamut of Allergies, including (Paprika), (Cows), (Cats), (Platinum), (Honey) and, believe it or not, (Sailboats). Then we started with Flashbacks - people were running the old scams like Flashbacks (Four Post Beds), (InterContinental Ballistic Missiles), and new ones like, believe it or not, (Sailboats). I got pretty tired of the plot hook being "...you wake up. You're on a sailboat. You don't know how you got there, or why you are there. All at the same time your throat closes up, your eyes puff up and close, your skin goes bright red and you suffer flashbacks for five minutes meaning you can't do anything but die. Now make a new character you twit."

I think every one of them took Intolerance (Racism, at least mild) for every single character. They would go trolling the Barrens or wherever looking for trouble or racism, or both. Every game. Without fail.

I have found that the most game-destroying flaws are Pacifist and Total Pacifist. Nothing screws the game like one player, or god forbid two of them, breaking down in the middle of every combat and insisting that the whole gaming group stop being violent. Shadowrun is a combat game, and it is not furthered by a two minute "but my character won't let you throw that grenade" debate in the middle of what is supposed to be a dramatic or climatic combat.
Grinder
QUOTE (Enigma)
I have found that the most game-destroying flaws are Pacifist and Total Pacifist. Nothing screws the game like one player, or god forbid two of them, breaking down in the middle of every combat and insisting that the whole gaming group stop being violent. Shadowrun is a combat game, and it is not furthered by a two minute "but my character won't let you throw that grenade" debate in the middle of what is supposed to be a dramatic or climatic combat.

Pacifist runner don't tend to last long in our games. They're kicked out of the team (or worse) as soon as it becomes obvious that they're useless in combat and just a hindrance in it.
ElFenrir
Pacifist flaws are a big favorite with the non combat munchkins(read: twinked Social Adepts.) There a heavy dose of points that do not affect their chosen area of expertise. I am ALMOST ready to put a similar tie in to the Sensitive System flaw...Pacifist flaws are worth less to a character with NO combat skills, how Sensitive System is worth less to mages. (i'd still up Bio-Rejections points to a bit more, even for mages...-3/-5 perhaps, just to make the damn flaws different for magically active characters.) The Pacifist flaws can of course also cripple the party in some way too, requiring the rest of the group to either kick them out, or tranq them and toss em in the van while the fighting went on.


And yes, it's true that the normal, real life allergies are considered twinky in SR. Im allergic to a certain antibiotic(which actually caused a problem, as when i had pneumonia, it is the best drug for it, so i had to rely on a less effective secondary drug which extended it for a month or so), pollen, some mold, and my springtimes outside can be hell. There are medications, but several have side effects which i dont like. I only take em if its real bad outside.

In SR, pollen is so considered a munch flaw, probably because there are plenty of assumed medications to prevent it. Might be more usable if you give the medications similar side effects to today(wire you up, make you drowsy, etc.)

The Sailboat character sounds interesting. That character is asking for a nice sailboating BTL, indeed. grinbig.gif

Phobias are more workable, what with all of the highly realistic sim and the like, and hell, awakened things.

And i agree that flaws should indeed hinder a character....but shouldnt CRIPPLE the character to be unplayable, which is the problem with some of them. Either crippling or non viable, and some nice middle ground would be good.

And speaking of the Soy flaw, i had that at one point. On top of things, this character had a Suprathyroid. Needless to say i think he was paying 9 G's a month for his middle lifestyle. nyahnyah.gif It did make for alot of fun, though. While the rest of the group was eating at McSoynalds, ol Vil had to go spend nuyen on 2-3 REAL hamburgers with real veggies and real cheese down the street, paying triple-quadruple for the damn dinner. Not to mention Johnny Walker Black label ran a bit more than Soy Daniels. biggrin.gif














nezumi
QUOTE (mfb)
good looking and knows it / ugly and doesn't care aren't real? what does "real" mean, then? i mean, they were obviously intended to be used, or they wouldn't be on the table.

Alright, open the Companion book to page 31. Under Social Edges is Good Looking and Knows It. Look at that blurb next to the cost, "example edge". That's what I mean. It isn't a canon edge, it's an EXAMPLE edge. Now look at WHY it's an example. GLAKI is a 1 point edge. It gives a -2 TN to all tests with the opposite sex AND a -1 TN to all tests made with the same sex, so a total of approximately -1.5 TN to all social tests.

Let's take a moment to compare that to other social edges...

Animal empathy costs 2 and gives a -1 TN to all tests involving animals.
Friendly Face for 1 point gives a -1 TN to all NEW social situations.
Good reputation at 1 point gives a -1 TN to all situations where the other character knows your rep.
FLAKI gives a -1.5 TN mod to ALL social situations in ALL conditions for a measly 1 point? Not only is it an example edge, it's a BAD example edge.

Continuing on, "Bryan" the GM, agrees this is a good edge and as the GM of Bryan's Game, approves it. So the book clearly shows that in Bryan's game, FLAKI is a valid edge. In all the rest of our games, FLAKI is just an example post you can take or leave, and should not be categorized with the rest of canon.

So no, FLAKi is not a "real" edge, it is an "example" edge (specifically, an example of an unbalanced edge).
Kagetenshi
Nezumi, you're incorrect. Good Reputation gives a -1 TN to all Social Skill tests, no matter whether the test is with their long-term Fixer or with a shipwrecked man in the South Pacific who hasn't communicated with another human since before you were born.

It should be noted that the penalty for Bad Reputation works likewise. Your rep shines through.

~J
mfb
QUOTE (nezumi)
Alright, open the Companion book to page 31. Under Social Edges is Good Looking and Knows It. Look at that blurb next to the cost, "example edge". That's what I mean. It isn't a canon edge, it's an EXAMPLE edge. Now look at WHY it's an example. GLAKI is a 1 point edge. It gives a -2 TN to all tests with the opposite sex AND a -1 TN to all tests made with the same sex, so a total of approximately -1.5 TN to all social tests.

so what? it's arguably broken. it's still in the table, which means pretty clearly that the writers intended that it be used. autofire in SR3 is ridiculous and stupid, that doesn't make it not part of the ruleset.
nezumi
It's the only one in the table with the special notation 'example', so like I said, I think it's in the table for completeness (since the blurb at the beginning of the section says 'all edges and flaws in this section are listed on page X), and it would take less verbage to write that one line and include LGAKI than to write 'all edges and flaws are listed except the sample here because we only included to guide you, the player, through the process of making a new edge or flaw'.

If they had wanted to make LGAKI a normal edge, they wouldn't have put a little disclaimer next to its cost.
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