acid dart? sounds like a rave idea.

Good idea but I think you would have to use specialized capsules increasing the cost a little bit (like 20% maybe?) otherwise your rounds would disolve in the clip...could get messy.


on another note, since i'm so fond of flamethrowers...

Splash grenades full of the flamethrower accelerant. More of a scare tactic because now they can't even fire their guns without setting themselves on fire.

And yeah, the Big D / flametongue shotgun shells are pretty cool too. I've considered the possibility of WP Shot Shells as well. These sorts of weapons however (flamethrowers included) are more for intimidation power than actual knockdown power. If you manage to ignite some poor sap with the edge of a flame burst, he's not as likely to go down as if you shot him in the face with slug, but he's gonna be in panic mode because he's on fire, allowing you to lay into him with more of it. Unfortunately there's not any built-in mechanic for that in shadowrun.

I think the only other unusual weapon we've considered using in our game is a big Cargo Jet. We had to destroy a particular facility before its product could be shipped via said cargo plane. Most of our initial plans involved hijacking the plane before it arived and flying it into the facility. The other players chickened out of that plan though. too many variables they said.

and I'm rambling again. boring day at work today. no servers to rescue it would seem.

there is a composure test...

true, but it doesn't automaticaly call for one does it? Again i'm away from my books so I don't know.

But yes, I forgot about the composure test. I'll have to remember that.

Trying to describe wing hardpoints with SR rules leads to an instant universe BSOD. If you don't believe me, try building the A-10 with SR rules for weapon mounts


My interpretation always was that the ammo bin takes the shape of a C-Mag for all guns with a removable magazines (drums and clips in SR terms). Yes, it's a special C-Mag built with smart materials which allow it to hold evrything from .22 to AMR calibers *waves hand*


PS: If you want a rave idea: Sniper capsule rounds with DSMO and K-10. Sure, you could just hand the money to a local gang if you need some distraction, but that wouldn't be as much fun

Just use <instert common party/night club drug> and start an orgy in the streets

eX would be a good bet. Or warp


I can just imagine getting hit with a sniper rifle paintball :o If the overflow wasn't going to kill him before it certainly will now lol

Or how about DMSO + Crimson Orchid? If thats the one i'm thinking of that makes you an astral beacon.

Yes, Most Airborne vehicles do carry Rockets (Missiles)/Cannons, etc. However, many Rocket Launchers are mult-fire, not single fire... and yes, once out of ammunition, they are out... However, If you think about the abstractnesss of the system... You can put a missile Pylon with 2 Extra "Ammo Bins" to represent the 3 Slot Missile Pylon on some planes, and there you have it, a 3 Shot Missile Pylon... it is abstract enough to work without getting into too much detail about what should and should not "Work" on a weapon platform...

As for Non Belt-fed Weapons... I routinely add a Modified GL to the mount with 24 Grenades for teh weapon... cant add an Ammo bin, because the GL is not belt-fed, and is not in the Large Launch Weapon Class, which is really what Vehivcle mounts are for... However, many smaller vehicles cannot mount such weapons, so you are left with the smaller ones with Clip/Drum/Magazine feeds or the LMG...



You might be able to do so, but it would be very hard indeed... Though if I were to take a crack at it, the A-10 would have a pretty high Body Stat... after all, it can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Aqua Regia for Acids... need glass capsules though, the gel ones would melt...

Keep the Faith

'24 launched grenades ought to be enough for anybody.'

What kind of glass capsule round can withstand being fire, but still break on impact… and have any internal capacity left for acid? FutureTech™ I guess.

Yeah, if you need more than 24, you should walk out the door...

Yeah... glass capsules would not make a lot of sense, but that is what would be needed for Aqua Regia... probably good for thrown "grenade" type weapons though...

Keep the Faith

I'm on-board w/ TJ's reading on extra ammo bin. The grammar on it suggests that the belt-feed refers to the extra rounds, not an actual belt fed modification to the gun. (remember guns can be removed off the drone and used normally). Remember, basic rules of grammar state that every item in a list (X does A, B, or C) must be able to stand independently (X does A, X does B, X does C.. and the grammar doesn't break cleanly to allow belt-feed to stand on it's own in the sentence).

That said, I don't see a huge problem w/ allowing it to give access to an ammo belt. Think of it this way, we put a plain vanilla M-16 in the mount, but instead of the normal 30rd box magazine, we put a battery powered magazine which attaches to a normal belted .223 ammo. The gun could still be removed and used normally, but now it's marginally functional in the drone mount (and won't run out of ammo in record time).

The bigger problem there is finding say belt-fed SMG, AR, MP ammo on the market. You'd probably have to have special links stamped out and load them yourselves into the ammo belts. But all in all that's a pretty minor problem and only requires a little bit of armourer skill (which isn't that much of a reach for any serious rigger).


One of my gripes in the system, is that small drones aren't really big enough for LMG's... but things like MP's and SMG's should be an option. And the lack of a belt-fed option really hamstrings them. Those weapons are designed w/ the base assumption that someone w/ extra mags and hands is there to reload them with use. So they don't port well to drones.

Really the only way to get around that is to go w/ dual feed, drums and get 2x 100 rounds otherwise.



As far as silly weapon ideas...
LMG like the white knight with dual feed, underbarrel GL, and mounted with a extra ammo bin.

Hypothetically that means you could have the LMG loaded up with... 2 different belts of ammo (say APDS and SnS), a handful more in the 20rd box mag (say capsule). (assuming the GM is overly generous and allows you to have all of them loaded at once). Plus some GL rounds in the launcher.

That kinda reminds me of this, excepts thats an HMG at the very least.

Thats my trolls new best friend with the 12 round underbarrel GL of corse

3rd edition, but a simple cocktail of DMSO, Hyper, and cayenne pepper in a splash grenade is enough to ruin anyone's day, unless they're wearing a chem-sealed suit.

To the ammo bin discussion: I believe ammo bins are not supposed to add any sort of feed mechanism that a weapon does not inherently already possess.

That said, I do make a weapon mod available in my home games to add a belt feed to magazine based and cylinder based weapons. For removable box magazine weapons, it's available as an aftermarket removable add-on (it's a modified magazine, really, adding a belt de-linker and a motor to the bottom of the magazine). For other types of magazines (such as internal) and also cylinder based weapons, it's a permanent modification and a bit more expensive.

Also, Beta-C, drum, and helical style mags are available in my games, in various capacities.


-karma

KarmaInferno... my point was I'd do it as not a weapon mod but as a very specialized magazine accessory attached to the drone's ammo bin.

Literally... it would be a special drone powered 'magazine' which strips rounds off the drones belt fed magazine to keep itself reloaded then holds them so that the gun doesn't know the difference between that and a normal 20rd removable box mag.


I'm on the same page as you though, they don't really have a drone modification for weapons though.

More "completely insane" than "pretty high". Twelve reinforced weapon mounts would require 72 body...

Hey, I recognize that site. Those guys also did This. Took a toolbox, modified the chamber on an AA-12, paired it with some Frag-12, took it to the firing range and taped it.

Yep, fully automatic grenade launcher.

this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYp9fOJ9VI

as for the frag-12 itself, the description from the pdf sounds like ex-explosive or APDS in shotgun variants.

In game terms it should be manageable, subsonic capsule rounds mean +4AP and stun damage. IRL the idea of a sniper paintball of course is insane.

The anti's are claiming that ", belt feed," is conditional, which there is no way it can be true from a grammatical standpoint.



While that is true, simply adding the word "a" before the "belt feed" makes it grammatically acceptable as an enumeration of three items.



There are links available for just about all ammo calibers.

God, still on this? Don't act like the grammar is involved here. English is ambiguous: nothing about the grammar is A) wrong, or B) supporting either side over the other.

Instead, logic and common sense overwhelming reject the idea that a 200¥, low-availability item can add a *removable* belt feed to a weapon.

Body 36

Cannon Mount: With 1174 Rounds... Reinforced, Fixed, Obvious, Remote (2 Slots +4 Slots for 4 Ammo Bins; could hold 1250 rounds in the Game)

There are 11 Additional Hardpoints on the Warthog... all of these mounts are Reinforced, Obvious, Fixed, Remote Mounts (so that it a total of 22 Slots Used): 8 Under Wing Mounts and 3 Under Body Mounts... 3 of which could contain an extra Ammo Bin (1 on each wing and a center body mount) (an additional 3 Slots)

Note: I have used Arsenal... and the Reinforced Mounts do cost Double Slots (2 instead of 1) which allows me to have my 12 Hardpoints (12 Reinforced Weapon Mount Hardpoints, Costing 2 Slots instead of 1... Double the "Slot" cost of a Normal Mount). Not every one agrees with this interpretation, but it fits within the letter (Double Space/Cost) and Spirit (1 Weapon Hardpoint per 3 Body) of the rules as written.

So... The Weapons package costs 31 Slots (Providing 12 Weapon Hardpoints... which a Body 36 will allow), which I would build into the plane as Standard Equipment, so no actual slot cost...

At that point, the plane has 36 slots to use for modifications and upgrades... No additional Weapon Upgrades themselves allowed as the plane has its maximum Hardpoints. Heck, I could even see including the Avionics Package as Standard Equipment as well...

Eminintly doable as far as I am concerned, and is not ludicrous in the extreme for a Body Stat...

Keep the Faith

If you're going to argue it that way, then a single letter in the other direction also backs up the other side. So your argument is neutral and doesn't back up either side.

Adding a letter and a space.. gets you an "a ". Removing an 'e' clearly would make the first conditional by saying just "belt-fed". As there's no way that belt-fed can stand on it's own (belt-feed is a noun, belt-fed is an adjective).



In any case, the only reason I brought it back up was to toss out the idea of the specialized magazine attachment for the vehicular weapon mount for GM's who are so inclined. Then the cost is about right... people can't suddenly remove it from the drone and have a belt-fed weapon and treat it as a weapon mod when it's a vehicle mod. Not to restart the argument.



And please answer your own question... why are there links easily available for almost all calibres... sure you can get a lot of stuff done custom. Remember SR breaks down ammo by category... light pistol, MP, heavy pistol, SMG, AR, shotgun, rifle, LMG, MMG, HMG. There's not exactly a whole lot of market for belted MP ammo, as by the book there are no belted machine pistols. I'm not saying it's hard to do, just it's not going to be commonly available, it's a special custom order. (and if the rigger is worried about being tracked down, he'll probably want to just order the ammo and stamp and load the links himself... as then his order doesn't stand out). IMO: the only rounds which are going to be commonly available off the shelf as linked are the LMG/MMG/HMG rounds.

Lets not forget those Autocannon Rounds either...

and just a point of note... creating (hand doing) Belted Links is a tedious and arduous task... not a lot of fun there, let me tell you... Can be done of course, but I can think of a lot better things to do with my time than doing that...

Linking Belts, not so bad... Linking Rounds... no thanks...

Keep the Faith

There isn't much to interpret in what the RAW says: As a general rule, one weapon mount can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of Body it has, rounded up. One reinforced weapon mount counts as two normal weapon mounts.

Sure, except that the rules in Arsenal (the specifics) actually provide the rules, which in my opinion work as intended... a Reinforced Mount actually counts as TWO weapons (if you look at cost and slot cost, it is the equivalent of 2 Normal Weapon Mounts)...

It is an interpretation, I know, but one that I believe can actually stand on its own... especially if you do not want to get into the creaziness of having vehicles with High double-digit Body stats (a good number of Planes would need Body in excess of 70 otherwise)... I believe that some of the rules were "written" poorly, with poorly selected word choice , at least in my opinion...

Using the interpretation I provided, almost every military platform (That I am aware of) can be built with Body 40 or LESS... which makes sense in the context of the Shadowrun game, rather than the opposite position, which does not make sense...

That being said, I would probably never actually design such a system, as there is no place for it in our games... of course, Your mileage may vary...

Keep the Faith

TJ:
On linking:
I disagree... there's no reason a competent armorer couldn't have an inexpensive tool made to link the ammo himself. Load the links in one bin, ammo in another, turn the crank... If he collects the links into a bag as they're fired they could even be reused.


On weapon mounts and military vehicles:
I just picked up an old used copy of Rigger 2 off the used book shelf last week... glancing through it...

I had forgotten way back they actually had weapon mounts and firmpoints. Mounts were like normal... firmpoints were basically just points to slap on a bomb or rocket pod.




Maybe that's what SR4 needs.
Reintroduction of firm-points. As then things like the fighter-bomber make a lot more sense.

I have a hard time seeing one dumb iron bomb taking up a complete weapon mount (it's damage isn't that high compared to a frag grenade) so it doesn't strike me as a very big bomb. Then when I consider that for a single weapon mount you could put in an actual missile launcher w/ a decent sized magazine or a multi-launch drone rack w/ 20 micro or 10 mini suicide 'drones'. I have a hard time seeing why you couldn't just load the thing w/ dumb grenades and eject them out either.

Even then 'guidance' adds a lot... Start w/ the cheapest drone in the book... bust-a-move. 350... 100 more for 'limited maneuverability' (attach guidance fins to the arms and legs)... now strap it on a grenade. Even then... a microdrone would be prefered (but the game really lacks for 'expendable' cheap drones). All the book micro-drones start at least at 1000. Quite frankly, I'd be happy to just be able to drop mortar rounds out of a launcher (they're already guided weapons, just need a designator).

The heimdall is the closest thing, and even that is expensive for 1500 + warhead. (for what is essentially a guided missile... we only need the guidance not the missile). Though admittedly, it costs roughly the same as non-drone missiles. (base + 500*sensor rating, so cheaper than high sensor rated missiles). Though seeking head is only 500 on p38.

I guess you could concievably, launch a swarm of dragonfly's or fly-spy's each armed w/ an impact-triggered grenade and have them maneuver and drop it.

It's just not a comprehensive drone/ground/sea/air/space vehicle construction system. We knew that.

Yeah, I loved Rigger 3 and all the options possible (e.g., firmpoints). However, weapons *are* expensive. Wiki says a Mk82 costs $270, and that's the smallest, dumbest one. A LAW rocket is $1100. A Hellfire missile costs something from $25000 and 65000+, depending on config.

Yeah... The loss of differentiation between Weapon Mounts and Firmpoints was a little disappointing... they may make a resurgence in the War book...

I do agree that the issue with some mounts is that they are obviously useable for multiple weapons... and Fighter-Bombers are the most notorious for having crazy mix of such weapons... as above, look at the A-10 Thunderbolt... the large difference in what can actually fit on those mounts is impressive... (of course, the plane is pretty damn impressive)...

But, we are currently forced to use what we have, and If I were to design something like the A-10, I would go with what I wrote above, if only to make it less ludicrous that the other option could end up being...

As for cheap and expendible, yeah, there are few choices... but if you really think about it... Rockets and Missiles really pretty cheap in and of themselves, and the Heimdall Missile Drone is Crazy Cheap (1500 Nuyen) for what it does...

Keep the Faith

You are very right about that... though you CAN use it as a guideline for building such things, especially if you have an idea of what the comparison craft can actually do...

It is not perfect, but it can work...

Keep the Faith

Oh, yes. They gave us a few 'examples' of each category, and you can certainly make tweaks and extensions where your game needs it. It's just that a nice VCS is a joy forever.

I can see that...

It may actually show up in War... Who Knows...

keep the Faith

right now its unclear what that book will contain, if it ever shows up at all.

WELL, One can always hope...

Keep the Faith

36 body is in line with an aircraft carryer/large warship due the the magical SR wackiness.
Firm pont rules are needed or mulitlauch drone racks with hamidals are the only way to make fighter-bombers.

Considering a Zepplin has a Body of 36, I do not see that as being crazy for a War-plane... that being said, I do think that the body of a Submarine, or aircraft carrier is much higher than 36... unfortunately, we have to use what we are given... and I could rationalize a Lower Body for most of the military vehicles (Subs, Cruisers, and even Aircraft carriers) without to much difficulty... after all, it doesn't take all that much to actually sink a large ship...

Your point about a Drone Rack is a good one, but takes up way to much space in my opinion, though the Multi-Launch rack for Heimdalls is interesting indeed, as you could have only 5 Slots of Useage for 10 actual Heimdall Missiles... pretty economical in my opinion... thoguh you could also just use teh Fleche Hail Barrage on a Standard Reinforced Mount (2 Slots) and use the Heimdall Missiles as the payload, with 20 Missiles for the launcher... 2 of those and you have 4 times the missile capacity for 1 slot less than the Original Multi-Launch Drone Rack... After all... a Heimdall is still just a Missile, with a Rigged Interface...

Just Sayin...

Keep the Faith

True abd you could ammo bin it for 4 times tg
hte payload in the same space

I assume that you are refering to providing a Single Mount with 3 Ammo Bin Modifications so that the Mount would have access to 80 Total Rockets/Missiles? If that is what you were meaning, then yes, that would take up just 5 Slots and have a hell of a weapon payload...

That is another method of providing the Fluff Firepower of a Vehicle, in a slightly more economical package, both in Body Rating and in Weapon Hardpoint Requirements...

Keep the Faith

Sure, if you change the "no more than X mounts per Y body" rule the hog can be built at reasonable body level, but it also means that an MBT can mount more turrets than the Maginot Line. The vehicle rules just don't scale well for vehicles which are larger/tougher (that's part of the problem, "large" and "tough" are synonymous in the current system) than a drone, because they were never designed for it.

Firmpoint rules or GM rulings are needed tbh. SR in the combat vehicles side is borked alot AV rokcets are worthless armor is too low the list goes on though perhaps this lack of advancement of combat armor reflects on the fact wards can't be made mobile so sprites eat heavy armor for tea. Though yes jets need a look over or launch weapons need some actual rules for atm they aren't usable bar the torpedo ones.

Yeah, I know... which is why I don't bother trying to create Military Grade vehicles with equivalent weapons... But you can do so and not go completely overboard, you just have to be very careful with what you allow into the game...

Keep the Faith

Someone referenced a weapon that shot a mono-filament line into a persons body that whipped around inside and turned it their guts into goo before retracting again; play much Warhammer 40k? It's the Harlequin's Kiss, but not likely creatable in SR unless your GM is monty-haulish...or sadistic enough so that the only way to aquire one is to have someone else us it on you first and if you somehow survive to kill them you can take it from them...
Reminds me of some old sci-fi book I read ages ago about a similar weapon that was a squeeze-bulb thing that whipped out a lightning-bolt-shaped nano-ribbon that could be swung around like a rope...I think this was the precursor to the mono-whip.

Anyway; odd weapons I have created for games;
"The Crossbones Special" A short-barreled, belt-fed Autocannon. Only usable by trolls as it was specifically designed for a troll to use. Designed to look vaguely like a troll-size flint-lock pistol only made with an auto-cannon firing assembly and shortened barrel. This was built for a particular character in a long-running SR campaign I was playing/running in back in the mid to late nineties. The company that produced it was troll-run and built weaponry and gear ONLY for Trolls, everything was DNA encoded for the Troll metagene. Silly but lots of fun!

I have a doc I made a while back called the "Ares Arms Catalog; Summer edition" that had a bunch of other guns based on gear from he Ghost in the Shell Manga, Including high-velocity ammo and weapons that were introduced before they made it into SR at all.

I am working now on building a character (For whatever SR campaign I may find to play in.) i call the "Junkyard Paladin". The character believes he is an medieval knight but builds all of his gear out of parts he scavenges from junkyards. The gear is inspired by the build-it-yourself gear from Fallout 3. Rock-it Launcher, Shiska-bob, Railway Rifle etc...should be a lot of fun once I figure out how to make it work!

As a side-note; any know where the rules for the Narcoject pistol and Rifle went? I can't find them anywhere in SR4 main or in Arsenal.

Launch Weapons work just fine in my opinion... Even with the irritating Scatter Rules...

The issue is how you attach such weapons to vehicles, and the armor available for such vehicles created as such...

Keep the Faith

Dart pistol and rifle are back in SR4A, but yeah, they were missing in the original SR4 book.

Edit: Double Post

...at which point you might just as well ignore the modification rules completely and do it by eyesight. Actually that's what I did when I needed a milspec vehicle (upgrade of the good old Gepard 2) as part of a character background, worked quite well.

Yeah, I could see that... I like the Modification Rules though, and with a littlr patience, you can make most things work...

It's all good though...

Keep the Faith

fantastic...so now I need to go and buy the anniversary book...8P

Nevermind, I found the FAQ with the changes. Yay! Thanks for the info!