sink is not the same as "forcibly disabled", and thats largely what a filled up damage track for a vehicle indicates.

Well, a sunken ship is pretty much disabled, by force.

That is pretty cool! I have used the custom look mod for the same thing before. It is easily the most overlooked weapon mod in the game IMO.

There is no way I'd ever allow Custom Look to have any mechanical effect except the listed Intimidation mods; it certainly cannot reshape a chainsaw into a sword. Neither does Reduced Weight really make sense for reduced unwieldiness. :/

The people I play with enjoy it. In the end it is just a change of style but the substance is the same. I would rather have fun especially when it does not impact the game in any meaningful way.

Why do you start with something as unwieldy as a Chainsaw? My take on the old Chainsword would be:

MK XI Chainsword 'Hell's Teeth'
Vibro Sword (Reach 1; STR/2+4, AP -2) [8F; 2000¥]
[1 Slot] R1 Custom Look (Chainsword) [2, 100¥]
Av: 8F
Cost: 2100¥

You could add the other goodies, but I don't think they need to be added to give the weapon the chainsword feel.

Now you have a better weapon but you get no bonus against barriers, which is good IMHO; it isn't a melta-weapon after all.
The weapon is also expensive and forbidden, this fits better with the gameworld and the WH40k fluff.

BTW I doubt reducing the weight of a hacking melee weapon is a good idea. The damage should be reduced as well.

Actually I've brought that one up a few times...

And there are distinct advantages.
1. I keep wanting to type MLRS for the Multi-Launch Drone Rack (MLDR)
2. the MLDR is sort of like the navy's vertical launch tubes and non-directional, it ejects the drone and the drone pivots and ignites in the right direction.
3. the MLDR only uses up single weapon mount. (Small, small landing, and MLDR count as normal weapons mounts), though it does have a body 10 requirement. Missile launchers will all need a reinforced mount.
4. you can load actual drones into the MLDR
5. you can load actual rockets/missiles into a missile launcher

6. how else you going to make a nifty robotech fighter w/ missiles flying out of every surface
7. MLDR can fire all 10 at once with a single complex action! (more robotech goodness... though firing 25k worth of missiles in a single salvo has it's own issues).
8. Missile scatter rules are completely borked especially for guided missiles (and even worse with Anti-vehicle warheads) so there's a distinct advantage to flying the missile into the target by jumping in/remote control.

9. An actual missile launcher needs a flexible mount if you don't want it limited to firing in a single direction.
10. fleche hail is good... but a MLDR doesn't take a -2 cum penalty for each rocket after the first. (and other missile launchers are a bit slower).
11. An actual heavy weapons mount plus things like concealment and flexibility gets a lot bigger than 2 slots.

12. Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL from BBB w/ some mods could pack 20 missiles in a single heavy weapons mount and fire SA... not that far off. (additional clip & extended clip)... theoretically another mod could be to change SA to SA/BF w/ a little less capacity. But it's also a smartgun (unlike the fleche hail) so doesn't need it's cost doubled to add an airburst smartgun accessory. (fleche hail needs both smartgun treatment and the accessory).


That much said, I think they're both good options... just there's a lot of plus and minuses there.
I'm a big fan of the classic folding fin rocket pod that the fleche hail is. It's just missile costs are so rediculously high. (it's kinda hard to fault the mage for spending 6000 on binding materials for 2 force 6 spirits... when the rigger/street sam is easily packing that much in ammunition alone. (and inexpensive rockets like the LAW are practically unusable due to the scatter rules).

Given the high cost of gun ammo, it's hard not to fault a single unguided HE rocket at 750 (~100x the cost of a single round of APDS). Rocket launchers really are cheap compared to their ammo... so there's very little excuse not to trick them out w/ smartgun/airburst accessories.

Oh man, I've had a lot of fun taking creative license with some those modifications. My favorite was a Defiance T-250 shotgun that was disguised to look like (and function as) a shilelagh for an older fomori druid, courtesy of Custom Look, Ceramic/Plasteel Components, and Melee Hardening modifications. I love it when other people make creative use of the game options like that.

Oh, and I agree about the Weight Reduction. That is a pretty bad idea for a melee weapon usually. Though I can see it not being as big an action for a chainsaw; you're not really relying on the cleaving/smashing power of the weapon for the damage. So in this case, I'd certainly forgive it and just explain it as a balancing of the components rather than a genuine weight reduction. Especially since a weapon's weight doesn't really come up at all in 4e.

Sure... whether it is "Sunk" or "Disabled," it is pretty much out of the conflict at that point, but your point is well taken...

Keep the Faith

Good Points all...
Yeah, I like the flavor of both ideas a lot, each one would fit very well for certain circumstances...

Keep the Faith

If you're using Custom Look to disguise things and radically reshape them, you should create a house-rule 'Level 3'; it should be significantly more expensive, and take up at *least* 3 slots. Custom Look is for pearl-handling or gold-plating your gun.

Missiles *are* expensive. If anything, Shadowrun makes them too cheap.

I would say that Pearl Handled Grips and Gold Plating would fall in the Level 1 Range... And honestly, the Custom Look Mod is to make things more intimidating and stand-outish; not to disguise anything... I would actually go the route of making it a Spy Device (I know, no actual rules for such) and go from there... but, you use what you have, and the Custom Look makes sense, if a little odd...

Fire and Forget Missiles and Rockets are indeed expensive... But remember, the Conversion from USD to Nuyen is about 10:1 so if you take that into account, the Ballista Missile Mk. 1 (10 each) ends up Costing 10,000 USD, which seems about right for a man portable missile (Remember you get 10 Ballista Missiles per Cost Listed; See Page 36 of Arsenal)... Not sure why Normal Rockets/Missiles do not follow the same costing scheme (They are an individual Munition per cost according to the SR4A Corebook; Meaning that the individual Standard Missile and Rocket costs 15,000 USD; which does not include the sensor package for the Missile obviously), but hey, whatever... Just means that you should get a Ballista System instead of anything else...

Keep the Faith

From a previous edition, I think, though I am not sure which one... I have heard a conversion as little as 5:1 and as much as 12:1, but the most common figure that I have heard bandied about was 10:1... I do not think that there is any "Proof" (nor even a mention) in SR4 however... I went back all the way to the 2nd Edition BBB, and am unable to provide any documentation... so, at that point, I can say that I have no idea where those numbers came from, though it does make some sense. It could always be a Memory Artifact from a houserule over the years...

Keep the Faith

IIRC, the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to NA placed the conversion at $2.50:1 - but that was WAY back in the day.

It's roughly 5 dollars to a nuyen according to Neoanarchist's guide to North America with up to 20% flucutations.

Edit- Shadow's of North America says the same. I'm only talking UCAS dollars not CAS.

Was it the London Sourcebook that placed it at 2.5 pounds to the nuyen then? It would have fit the $2:1 pound 'rough exchange' of the late 80s...

So there we have it: 5:1

Works for me...

Keep the Faith

Yes

though the USCAS doller to USA doller might not be one to one...

I agree... 10:1 is too high... 1:1 is about right given cost of living. Small apartment plus food plus minor vehicle... is a low lifestyle at about 2000/month... 24k a year. Just about spot on, unless you're in the middle of nowhere where you're not looking at city rents.


Also Ballista and great dragon prices are NOT per 10 rounds... look inside the chart the chart says they're (per missile).



Another thought... since technically any missile/seeker head equipped rocket (w/ sensor) has both sensors... a signal rating... and a response rating... what's stopping anyone from loading a pilot program written for drones on to it? Really a rating 1 or 2 program isn't that hard to write (and I don't think pilot or system programs can be optomized or otherwise have their rating exceed response). Doing other normal drone/electronics mods to the missile... IE: the rating 1 sensor suite is kinda bleah... well I'm going to upgrade the thermographic camera from rating 1->6 (laser designators home in on an IR laser... so I'd say they have a thermo camera)

Paired w/ a captains chair approach to avoid dumpshock as your drone self-destructs (remote control, free action to switch perspective). This also avoids the response problem, you end up rolling command + piloting skill +- handling (which is probably same as the heimdall at +1 if you buy a seeking head for your rocket). Given adequate signal range, you could literally fly the 'drone' into it's target (just like a TOW).


Theoretically you could just buy a rocket (which is still expensive 750 for a basic HE unguided)... (assuming it's response 1, signal 0, FW: high... it is ordinance and a device), though probably w/ a safety pin like a grenade (to stop hackers from just setting things off.. it's can't be armed til the pin is removed). Just to avoid problems (like claiming rockets have no guidance ability... pay the +500 for sensor 1 or a seeker head... so it has a sensor package and some kind of limited mobility to change it's course). (seeker head is just a thermographic camera + guidance fins, plus software, according to the chart... it's capacity 3 sensor package so probably also includes a rangefinder)


1250. Now per the chart... if like any good rigger, we keep a cracked firewall on hand and pay the monthly SOTA costs to keep it up to date for all our toys. Firewall 6 on the cheap. Signal rating 3 cotss 150 for 400m comms range(if we want to actually remote it), rating 4 (1km) is 500. If we keep the response at 1 -> 2 is costly at 750... so probably not worth it compared to the heimdall. That will limit you to 2 programs... guessing an optomized encrypt, and an ergonomic optomized something else... use the new data bomb rules to put a big data bomb on the node for any hackers trying to hack it in a hurry. (still don't fully understand the new data bomb rules). Probably write a second piece of software who's only purpose in life is to detonate after the missile gets within a certain range, and after it hits closest point of approach.


1500 for everything on the heimdall I'd consider a bargain for high rating stuff, (I'd assume the heimdall is rating 4 'security' device... though since it's disposable 'low cost' one-time use maybe downgrade that to rating 2 or 3... as an actual self-contained drone... definitely a bargain. Though given it's range.. probably has a 10km rating 6 signal chip in it. (it flies 2-3km per second). But given the above...

In the end, conversion does not really matter, it was just a point I was making to show that the munitions were not all that cheap...



Point to Falconer... I totally missed the parenthetical descriptor somehow... but then, why put it in that particular table (in the fluff section)? It appears that the Table at the end of Arsenal has it in the correct place, with the Missile Ammunition, rather than the Miscellaneous Ammunition like in the interior... wierd...



Makes Sense, and would probably do the same myself...



Which is my preference, as they become so much more accurate that way...



Pins are not generally used, as the Rocket itself has an arming distance that is satisfied through flight... which is a lot harder to screw with...



Really, the Heimdall is the cheapest you can get if you want to guide Munitions through Rigging... Even Good sensor driven Missiles are more expensive in the end... just keep a few cracked programs for the Drone's stats, and you should be okay...



Yeah... My munitions of choice for Missile/Rocket Launchers is the Heimdall (and the variability of theMunitions is a big plus, depending upon your application; 2500 Nuyen for the most expensive version of Anit-Vehicle Munitions)... I would leave it at a Rating 4 (Security) though it may actually qualify for a Rating 5 (Military) Package... but it is so fast that the opposition will not really have enough time to acquire it and then hack it before it detonates... that whole 2000-3000 MPS is very brutal indeed... and since it is so fast, anyone with a Signal Rating of 5 has only a single second (1 pass from detection) to really do anything to the Drone before it impacts... Signal 4 or less and they will not see it coming before it actually impacts the vehicle/target... Brutal...

Of course, Standard Missiles should follow the same flight characteristics as well, though many (All?) Rockets are far slower than that...

Keep the Faith

Or you should just continue to have fun being creative with something that doesn't really affect anything rules-wise.

Think of it this way, the warhead cost is the same... (500/750/1000) the base cost of the rocket.


Heimdall is like 1500 for a super high-grade bolt-on guidance & recon drone package.

Seeker head is 500 (as is rating 1 missile + sensor).

So if all you do is upgrade the signal (and leave response alone), then it's simply software costs which can be spread across an arbitrary number of missiles. (rating 3 signal for 150 is enough for short range missile shots).


Though disagree... just because it's security/military doesn't mean you eliminate common sense. In this case, it's one shot, disposable, w/ an extremely limited hacking window, so it doesn't need very large stats... and for *1500* are you really going to get a $4000 response 5 chip, AND a $1000 rating 5 signal chip, and system & firewall... (I'd say it's much more likely they keep a good firewall, skimp on response, rating 2 response is 750 + 1000 for rating 5 signal... then we call the software costs spread out across a large production run... and package deal discount on the response + signal hardware, really response 2 is enough to run 4 rating 4 optomized/ergonomic programs w/o node degradation. (which to me makes it a nice sweet spot for cost/effect). It comes w/ a pilot rated 3 (which you could see breaking the commlink rules... since they sell disposable commlinks w/ response 1, and system 2... no reason a custom special purpose couldn't be similarly optomized since pilot replaces system in a drone allowing pilot3 on response 2... hell since it's one shot... maybe the overclock a cheap processor and burn it out intentionally (it burns out in 10 rds... the missile only flies for 6 max)).

The other implication of allowing really high grade stuff on the cheap... otherwise you do what... buy the heimdalls for their rating 5 parts... then scavenge them to put in your cheaper civilian drones w/o having to pay big bucks and some sweat equity.

The whole point of the exercise was just to figure out if I could use a cheaper missile, and hand guide it... and I believe the answer is a yes... provided the range is short (longer ranges need more signal, barring access to the normal matrix unwired mesh... so in a city yeah signal 3 is probably more than adequate w/ other routing nodes in close proximity). Also you'd probably switch focus to the missile drone before it launches... use your pilot check to launch itself out of the missile rack/tube.

The point is that it does affect the game mechanically, and in balance. They're talking about turning a chainsaw into a sword for very little money. It's *not* a purely cosmetic 'fun' change. It's not 'creative' just to break the rules.

How is it affecting the game mechanically? None of the listed mods give any bonuses to attack or damage. The end product has exactly the same stats as the base weapon.

What? He specifically said "Notes: Because of the custom look (sword) and reduced weight, the -2 penalty on attack rolls and parry tests should be negated."

Meh thats a GM call it still would need it's own skill ect.

There are a lot of Drones (both Security and Military) where their "Device Rating Stats" would cost significantly more than the drones itself... Quick List: Heimdall, Dragonfly, Flyspy, Ferret, iBall, Sentinal, P4, Optic X, GMC Chariot, LEBD-1, Doberman, Rotodrone, Auxilia, Dalmation, Steel Lynx and the Crimson Samurai...

I see no issue with just ignoring the "costs" of the communications package... at that point, the parts are integral, and cannot be scavenged... easiest way I know of to keep a check on the technology. That being said, yes, you could get a very basic, nothing Device Rating Rocket/Missile Guidance package... fortunately, you really do not need to get Node Stats for such a device, because, again, it flies so fast that by the time you actually detect the device, it is way to late to do anything about it via Matrix Hacking anyways... so why spend the money in the first place...

But I do agree that you could do so for the same base cost of the Heimdall... though I would say that you would still need to have a Rigger Module installed so that you could actually control it like a Drone (otherwise you cannot), which the Heimdall comes with standard (All drones come equipped with these by default)... which costs 2500 Nuyen to add it on, defeating the purpose of your Cheap munitions...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

My understanding is you only need the rigger module if you're going to jump into the drone to make use of the rigger module. (which is another point in the heimdall's favor as it automatically includes it... though dumpshock isn't fun when your node blows up when you're in it).

Any vehicle can be driven using remote control. (hence the manual control override or only option to disable it).


Though then again, wasn't there a blurb about the chart is the cost of parts plus installation, parts alone cost half that?
Found it in SR4.... SR4a cost for parts is half purchase price (p227 Using Hardware). So you can reduce those costs significantly. (quite frankly... IMO: I only look at hardware costs mostly... software I figure is on a volume license a lot cheaper than the 'retail' license most people use).

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

That's why I used the Vibro Sword as base weapon.

I didn't mean you, then. I meant the one I was quoting, and originally responded to.

Then that is what you should have addressed, not outright criticizing people for having fun with what about to changes of flavor.

I did. Specifically.

Waaay late doing so, but that's why I used the word "should." That word implies the possbility of it not working.

In any event:

Freeze Grenade
Splash Grenade [+4, +20]
R6 Freeze Foam [6R, 24]
Av: 10R
Cost: 44

one would think such a grenade was standard riot gear in the upper sections of town (with the lower having them replaced with frag).

Alright, but for that cost 'runners should not leave them out of consideration.

Anyone do a B&R grenade from the Schlock Mercenary universe? (Barf and Run, where run refers to bowel movements....)

Best defensive weapon ever was a hacker's waterbed. Yup, waterbed.... with a armored, hallow bottom that allowed for 1 person to hid in. When sleeping, all the hacker had to do was roll out of bed, onto the floor and crawl under the bed into the armored space. If people shot the bed, he was protected and the waterbed would burst, letting out all the liquid inside... usually some sort of acid inside a liner of the mattress or some liquid that would vaporize when in contact with air and turn onto smoke/knockout gas or poison gas.

A bowel disrupter in grenade form? Spider would be proud

Oh, not only does "Run" refer to the speed of said movements, it also refers to viscosity.

Ares Viper Slivergun
-Modified to Full-auto from burstfire
- with Dikoted rounds.

SS = 10D(f) (Silenced)

FA = don't ask, it was horrible.

Houseruled (1) That the silencer was buggered after a clip and as that was integral, so was the toy. (Still an awesome gun for a Ganger Leader)
Houseruled (2) Ammunition was a once-off crazy-guy thing. Only 6k for a 30-round clip, but nasty.


Dikoted Arrow Heads (funfun)

And (sigh)...

Weapon focus, Dicoated hand razor. (If you do the Dikoating, then the enchanting, it's easier. And possible. Then you get it implanted into yourself/)
Done in the SR3 adventures series with some mook face who had a force 5 (?) dikoted cyberspur as a foci. Banned from play by the rest of the players as soon as they heard of it.

2 x Flame-delivery system that's hooked up to insecticide rather than napalm. Chemsuit and respirator required. (We don't like bugs)
Capsule rounds: DMSO, Hyper, Pepper-punch & Insecticide.

-Tir

Don't bother mentioning Dikote; it's like breathing. We know.

Dicote! It's edgy!
Sadly, it's also the most cost-effective "add to maximize AWESOME" game ingredient there is.

I know players who were wondering if they could dikote their credsticks. Oh, god, I have a thought...

Crap, it's feasable.
Going on the closest object in the Cannon Companion (yes, SR3 ed, still) which is a fork or utensil (STR -1)L using edged weapons, a dikoted credstick would be (STR) M... that's respectable.


"Hey, anyone wanna see a magic trick..?"


Oh god yes, I'm so having a takedown like that occur 2 tables down during a meeting.
That and having an angry cop called Detective Richard Whisky.

-Tir.

His vehicle better be a helicopter^^