No, there are defined spirits types which have this power, just none of them belong to any tradition I'm aware of. They all tend to be shadow spirits, ie sucubus, and the like.
It is possible to find one, then banish/bind it, use it to drain karma, then use a spirit with endowment to endow the sucubus with endowment, and have it give you karma drain to get the karma from it, but I'm not sure how well that would work out. The sucubus would have to never be allowed to accumulate enough karma by itself to upgrade itself, because if it did, it would kill you in ways so terrible the english language doesn't yet have the vocabulary to describe. You would really have to come up with something 'interesting' to placate it, so it doesn't goon you.

Its always past noon somewhere

Of course you can, you just have to have a GM let you do it. So either they're a pushover, or have something 'special' planned for such an occasion.

Not really Dragons of the sixth world have such stats

And whoever said that you have to go after one of the more established dragons?

You can always hunt a dragon who is still hibernating or who just woke up

I always viewed Toxic spirits as the Horror Precursors of Shadowrun. The little weak horrors that awaken first.

As such, in my mind a Toxic Shaman would never be a PC.. because he would be insane/twisted long before he got very far in his tradition.

In my mind a PC would never be a Toxic because his team would turn him into DIMR for the cool million reward.

I'm sure the rest of the team would love toxics/blood mages on their team.

I have to say that I knew a GM that would have loved this stuff. I think I described him in the "GM Horror Stories" thread. By the end of the first night, I had killed a couple gods and was preparing to replace them. Of course, by "I had killed" I mean the suit of sentient armor that my character was trapped in and the GM was running had killed.

I enjoyed that night so much that I never was a player for him again...

No, they don't. None of the Greats have stats in that book.

I don't really see a problem with someone playing a 'toxic' mage, and I've been in parties where the mage SHOULD have been toxic. Also, what would be wrong with someone who is an awaken nuclear physicist from having a 'nuclear' fire spirit, ie the one listed in the toxic section. Its possible to be entirely sane, and to associate with the forces of entropy. Its just that none of the toxic spirits I know have Karma drain, there are ways to access it, but none of them are been stated as being part of this 'plan'.

SM Page 147

TOXIC SPIRIT QUICK DESIGN
In Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, gamemasters
are free to design their own toxic spirits as unique
entities, fleshing out their appearances, attributes,
and powers fitting the particular beliefs of the toxic
summoner. The simplest way to do this is to use
the stats of one of the ten basic spirit types as a
template and swap out attributes, abilities and
powers, replacing them for abilities with appropriate
flavor listed in this chapter. As toxic spirits
are diverse, gamemasters should not shrink from
modifying existing powers and rules when it fits
the flavor of the toxic spirit type in their games.
Here are a few examples:

I'm not sure what you're asking. There are stats in 4th ed for Great dragons - baseline stats. And yeah, they're gibbed, but only because they're that much overclassed - although I think I could give one a run for its money if I tried hard enough. For the Named ones who lack stats, however, it's like trying to stick a knife in Africa. Africa doesn't have stats, so you can't kill Africa.


In all fairness, you're assuming you know he's a toxic/blood.

Thank you, my point is proved.

Of course they will.. every single member of the team is a toxic/blood mage

GAMEMASTERS

let me say it again

GAMEMASTERS

Neraph you damn Ninja


Not munchkin players trying to hoodwink some unsuspecting GM with stupidity.

I wouldn't really have a problem with it either, but the tradition as written in SM is not meant to be played (as a PC); it's almost entirely, "whatever the GM decides" for it's powers, etc.

If they want to build a playable tradition, that's another thing entirely. (though, a million nuyen is going to be awfully hard to pass up if a fellow player ever does it...)

Whoever says the GM is against the PCs on this one?

Hell, the GM can disallow anyone becoming anything else if he wants to, he can even disallow a player from playing a metahuman, a mage, a TM,etc

However, the fact that this particular ruling is in the books proves that it is canon.. which proves that this toxic mage scenario is as legit as any other ruling found in the books..

Or should I say.. it is a canon ruling not a house ruling and that is all that matters..

The GM can allow you to be a Great Dragon if he wants - but the rules assume that he's aiming for a semblance of balance and sanity.

The spirits you wish to employ are not canon spirits. They would be the invention of the GM. As for if this against the GM or not, unless this intended to be a powergaming experience, they should have the common sense to kill you off in one of several thousand different ways.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for that April Fool's dragon-as-PC excerpt from a while back?

But yeah, if your GM is playing along with you on this, why do you need to ask us for help?

Also, if your GM is playing along with you on this, please stop calling it Shadowrun. There's so many houserules in it that it surely isn't an SR game, it's some other game using the SR mechanics.

Dragonfun^^

ShadowMunchkin.

Re: team knowing if the member is blood/toxic - In all honesty, if this was in one of my games I would probably drop a few hints to let them know. After all, this isn't a subtle undertaking.

It's also not as legit as any other scenario in the books, because it's drekking nonsense.

Let's recap:

You have 105 prime runner toxic mages, one of which is a Dragon. Each has a free spirit forumula for a force 20 ally spirit (Threshold 100, 1 day), which will cost 160 karma each. (How do you even get a force 20 spirit? Mana storms are at +14, and at that level magic is completely uncontrollable and incredibly dangerous to anybody in the area.)

Now you want to inhabit dragons with them. And 5 GDs at that. These are 105 of the oldest, most fell terrifying beasts in the world with magic, prowess and intelligence nigh unimaginable to Metahumans and you want to inhabit 105 of them? Baffling.

What is not cannon about your argument:
Toxic PCs (Material would have to be houseruled)
Force 20 spirits of any kind
Dragons being wusses and letting themselves be inhabited
Not getting THOR'd

Question: How could you possibly think, that as the single biggest threat to metahumanity to date, you would not be nuked from orbit?

Wow... talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
I remember saying something about this when you where going off on your ally spirit inhabiting the mage who summoned it so you could play a "free" spirit.
I do agree that the game pattyhulez is playing is no longer Shadowrun. I have no idea what to call it. But hey, if thats how you guys like to roll then so be it. Yes patty, you have the rules to back you up... there is nothing we can say against it. All I can say is have fun.

TBH, I feel sorry for the GM that lets this happen. This isn't even an enjoyable game at this point.

You know when Neraph is calling something absurd...

Here be Dragons

For you and I maybe... But if Patty's group likes that sort of thing who knows...

Hell... I remember what a character I had in Rifts was like after 10 years of playing... I had to play him low key just so the GM didn't kill the rest of the party.... But everyone enjoyed themselves.

Ten years in the Simbieda Money Machine? Ech.

Stronger player than I. Not a lot of folks play Rifts out here anyway. Never got into a game.

Hey, I'll admit. I love the world... All of them... well most of them. Rifts, BtSN, Palladium fantasy... I just hate the system...

Rifts can actually be a lot of fun; it's just incredibly demanding on the GM to provide any sort of balance to the party.

The fluff is kinda neat, but the mechanics were confusing as hell.

Maybe Patty's group should try Rifts out. Then they could all be dragons.

Dragons... forget that... OLD ONES!!!

It can actually be very subtle if you do it right.

Sure. If you do it right. I did it once, a long time ago in 3E. Having a mage with a degree in Thaumaturgy from Miskatonic was a hoot.

The shadows cast by his fire spells all had tentacles at the flaming tips.

Damn I was stuck in a meeting at work so you beat me to it.

First off, there are degrees and multitudes between working within the wording for a specific power and... this. What this person preposes is some bizzar bastard child between what I had proposed (and, whether you like it or not, lies within the rules of the game) and extrapolating to the Nth degree.

Now, in all fairness, this (dragon-inhabiting) is entirely possible to actually pull off. My questions though are: 1) how many dragons are there in the world, and 2) who's going to play them like the creatures of power they actually should be?

Also, thank you Mooncrow for the link... and the backhanded compliment?

EDIT: Also, the character's ascention that I played out was basically the end of the campaign. We had one or two runs after that and called it. My character had accomplished his goals, and the rest of the team got to areas in their advancement that they were happy with and retired them as Infected generals in my character's army he was building.

And they faded into the Shadows...

If by "stats" you mean type,sex,color,metahuman form(s),primary lair(s) and name of the translator then yeas it has

I have yet to see the answer how to avoid being exploded by every military and their grandmother once they realize whats happening. You can barely, if even, hide one GD from going poof let alone about a hundred normal dragons.

Not to derail this thread more than I already have... But...

Degrees and multitudes... What you proposed and what patty proposed are both within the rules. Both require GM approval. I don't recall saying that they where not in the rules only that as a player it is not a valid choice without major GM permission and oversight.
I don't have a problem with what patty suggested, she only asked if it was possible within the rules. You do the same. My problem is when you pass it off to others as being acceptable creations without so much as a disclaimer stating that the rules are being used in a manner that requires GM approval. Standard character creation (for the most part) does not require GM supervision. What you state does.

When a player makes a standard character the GM only needs to look at the sheet after the player finishes to double check math/availability/power level. What you and patty suggest almost always require GM oversight from the start. I don't expect you to understand my point of view on this I just want to point out the differences in character creation from standard and "GM-approval" types.

A force 20 ally spirit could probably kill most great dragons, alone. A spirit of this force is pretty much a deity. Why would you even bother having it inhabit a dragon? A materialization F20 spirit could appear wherever it wants on a whim, kill whatever it wants, do whatever it wants.(edit: i'd like to see a mage that can conjure such a spirit without dying. Even most great dragons couldn't conjure one.)

So, yeah, one is probably strong enough to possess or inhabit a great dragon. But why would it bother?

edit: inhabiting a non-great dragon would probably be somewhat of a step down for a spirit this mighty.

As most GD's have stats of 'plot', doing anything the GM wants is actually rather simple. They wouldn't even have to summon it, just ask some force 20 free spirit they met 4 on the last cycle, or in a deep meta plane one day to come and blow up X for them.

All true. But if you use the recommended stats from the book, which are normal dragon type + 10, my statement is valid.

Closer to +5 (+3 to +5 to most stats, +10 to strength and body).

Ignoring the rules you are breaking and impossibility of what you are suggesting rules-wise for a moment, what exactly makes you think that the draconic community would just sit back and let you do this?

What you are proposing is the kind of thing that would make the Greats call a council meeting. And as I understand it, if you are the reason for a dragon council meeting, you are in very deep trouble.

What I proposed is basically for the ending of a campaign, and in my case it was within 3 runs of the end of the campaign. Or at least 1 run and 3 sessions, IIRC.

What she proposes looks to be the beginning of a campaign. And not once, but over a hundred times.

That's degrees and multitudes.



I can build one (400 BP character) that can summon a F28 with very little in-game prep. He can statistically survive it. Maybe. At least half the time I think.

by all means, show us.

Given that it would require Magic 14, I too, would like to see this.

Easy. Nosferatu with Magic 5, Magic Pact with a F6 spirit, and (the in-game setup) drain 12 Essence and use Essence Drain to boost Magic by 6.

5 + 6 = 11 + 3 (1/day) = 14.

Overcast/Summon F28. 1/day. F22 the rest of the day.

To survive, have drain stats at 4 and take Increase spells for them to get ~ 6+ successes. That gives you a lot of drain dice.

And, just to reiterate, I can maybe survive it mostly some of the time. Oh, and I just realized that my drain value is 2x the spirit's successes. So I can survive it if he rolls poorly. Which is, again, why I said "He can statistically survive it. Maybe. At least half the time I think."

If he has a body of 7+ he won't fall unconscious from an average result (neither side using Edge anywhere).

However, on average you'd never get any services out of the spirit either, as it'd still have 8 dice on you.

That's interesting, I've never read the infected magic rules closely before. Craziness.

Yes, but it is within the realm of possibility that I can actually roll well and he rolls poorly. A bad thing to bank on, but that's a go-for-broke thing. And hell, if you have to Jeet Kun Do like that, you may actually wish to go unconscious so the F28 rampages.