Aaron
Jun 4 2007, 12:35 AM
Wow, I go away for a bit, and miss a whole lotta thread.
Somebody at some point said that a possessed bullet is imparted a DV. I can't agree with this. The bullet is imparted a degree of kinetic energy, and that energy is transferred upon impact, which is in turn described by the rules in terms of DV.
Kinetic energy does not exist astrally.
Back to our possessed bullet. It's dual-natured, yes? As is its theoretical target, the materialized spirit. When a dual-natured being encounters something, the aspect of the environment (physical or astral) that has the most restrictive conditions apply, right? A dual-natured being can't wander through a ward placed over field, for example. In the astral, two beings can't really push one another or wrestle or the like (e.g. FAB II cannot stop an astral being unless encased in some physical object), they can just hurt one another, so the most restrictive environment is the physical plane, bringing us back to using the gun's DV and the spirit's Armor.
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 01:10 AM
QUOTE |
Back to our possessed bullet. It's dual-natured, yes? As is its theoretical target, the materialized spirit. When a dual-natured being encounters something, the aspect of the environment (physical or astral) that has the most restrictive conditions apply, right? A dual-natured being can't wander through a ward placed over field, for example. In the astral, two beings can't really push one another or wrestle or the like (e.g. FAB II cannot stop an astral being unless encased in some physical object), they can just hurt one another, so the most restrictive environment is the physical plane, bringing us back to using the gun's DV and the spirit's Armor. |
I agree but I also consider the possessed object to be a magic weapon for the purposes of defeating Immunity to Normal Weapons.
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 01:20 AM
QUOTE |
Well, having them not like bothering with pesky immaterial creatures would run counter to why Corp types keep them as after hours security... they can and will attack and 'eat' astral intruders almost instinctively... or so I read it way back in whatever edition it was I first noticed that whole bit about 'dual natured' guard dogs. |
Yesp. In order to have the things do what they are supposed to be able to do you have to houserule them having the Astral Combat skill.
QUOTE |
As for 'abusing' the spirits... I don't quite get it, particularly if you are using them, say, to possess steel shot. That stuff doesn't get so roughed up in firing and I thought spirits were pretty indifferent to physical stuff, even possessing spirits don't focus much on the state of their host unless they get something out of it, right? |
Quite right. The original character I envisoned using this would have used a bow with handmade arrows. Later I considered a black powder pistol with homemade ammuntion. Neither weapon is really going to do all that much damage to it's ammunition. Considering that the Force of the Spirit adds to the effective Body of the object and adds twice it's value as Hardened Armor against normal weapons (such as the gunpowder explosion that propels it), even a Force 1 Spirit adds quite of bit of durabiltity to that arrow or lead ball.
QUOTE |
Seems like a 'I think it's broken so I'll find a way to punish someone that tries it' mentality to me. |
I've noticed this a lot around here. It seems pretty common in many RPGs, but Shadowrun really seems to bring it out. Too many '"screw the 'runners" scenarios in the setting get people to start sliding into "screw the players" in the rulings. They really shouldn't be the same thing.
QUOTE |
Me? I think it's impracticable on any real level, but cool anyway. I can see some cliched swamp voodoo houngan with his 'spirit shotgun' totally in canon. |
Impractical? Hell yeah! But... that image you crafted is great. Spirit shotgun is just too cool. It's like an actual casse of CP2020's 'style over substance' in action.
Squinky
Jun 4 2007, 01:27 AM
So....isn't this just a simple case of "do whatever you want with your home campaign"?
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 01:34 AM
QUOTE |
So....isn't this just a simple case of "do whatever you want with your home campaign"? |
Not hardly!
It's a complex case of 'might work like this if you like' - similar to most of the rules in the book really.
Ancient History
Jun 4 2007, 01:42 AM
QUOTE (Squinky) |
So....isn't this just a simple case of "do whatever you want with your home campaign"? |
Pretty much, yeah.
Aaron
Jun 4 2007, 02:20 AM
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
I agree but I also consider the possessed object to be a magic weapon for the purposes of defeating Immunity to Normal Weapons. |
So a person would have to wield it, then? Or are you making two exceptions to the rules?
toturi
Jun 4 2007, 04:16 AM
QUOTE (Ancient History) |
<shrug> Maybe they don't like fighting things they can't chew and digest. Maybe it'll show up in ther errata. In the meantime, there's nothing stopping a GM from giving a critter the Astral Combat Skill. |
Except it won't be RAW.
fistandantilus4.0
Jun 4 2007, 05:14 AM
Ok, time for a little good idea post, bad idea post.
Good post:
QUOTE |
You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong, but I've been around gaming - and Shadowrun - long enough to know that what's written has a lot of wiggle room. Playing it like D&D 3.5 is a mistake because the rules will never be so complete (and hopelessly cumbersome). |
Bad post:
QUOTE |
Do whatever you like with your 'old hand' when I'm not around, but I'm not buying your smugness. |
Drop the insults and return to your normally scheduled program.
toturi
Jun 4 2007, 06:46 AM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
Ok, time for a little good idea post, bad idea post.
Good post:
QUOTE | You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong, but I've been around gaming - and Shadowrun - long enough to know that what's written has a lot of wiggle room. Playing it like D&D 3.5 is a mistake because the rules will never be so complete (and hopelessly cumbersome). |
|
No... An Admin has said I have been playing it like the
Cancerous Game! It cannot be!
hyzmarca
Jun 4 2007, 07:37 AM
There is a lot of wiggle room in the RAW, but there is a huge difference between the RAW and what was intended, because the rules were written by people who are not omniscient.
It has always been intended that Astral Bullets are impossible. That's just the way the game was intended from the very start and that intent has remained throughout all the editions, that is one of the few things that has remained consistent throughout the editions. Even when they actually printed rules that explicitly allowed astral bullets back in SR3's Target: Awakened Lands they included a disclaimer that basically said that they should never actually be used in a game and if they are they should be absurdly rare.
Magical bullets have been possible since anchoring was invented, but they are absurdly expensive due to the associated karma cost.
The problem with having a possessed bullet act as a magic bullet is that this solution is far easier and far cheaper than every other solution out their, as well as far more common.
But, its your game. Do what you will with it.
Tarantula
Jun 4 2007, 07:49 AM
Just a thought to those saying that a character must be "wielding" it for it to count as a magical weapon. How about a possessed arrow, thrown by an adept with missile mastery. Would that work? I suppose it fits the same as if adept had a sword weapon focus, and decided to throw it instead of swing it.
How would you rule that? Say its a weapon focus, sword. Adept has missile mastery. Would adept roll only throwing + agi? Throwing + agi + weapon focus dice? Astral combat + will? Astral combat + will + weapon focus dice?
odinson
Jun 4 2007, 08:18 AM
The part that makes me think this is plausible is under the vessel rules where it says that a weapon does its normal damage or force/2 and can affect astral. There is the argument that a bullet is ammunition but how would it work for a throwing knife? It's not hard to stretch from a knife to a baseball to a bullet. All three are doing damage because of the speed they are traveling at.
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 08:41 AM
I personally see no problem against this as the rules DO allow it and is rather clearly spelled out. There are several balancing factors since the following is needed:
Skills
Money
Time
Just summoning something and infusing it into a piece of metal (bullet, arrowtip) is no easy process. It takes multiple tests and there are several chances of failure.
And it is not a magic bullet, it would be an awakened bullet. Also a thing to remember is that it takes TIME for each bullet.
Just making a revolver load of 6 bullets would take at least a week:
Preparing an inanimate vessel:Enchanting+Magic (Object Resistance x 3, 1 day)
So, a bullet would be a manufactured hi-tech objects, so would a bought arrow in 2070. So we are talking about Object Resistance treshold 9.
For each bullet it would probably take at least 2 days to prepare.
DigitEyez
Jun 4 2007, 09:04 AM
QUOTE |
Seems like a 'I think it's broken so I'll find a way to punish someone that tries it' mentality to me.
|
I haven't decided yet whether or not to allow this or not. We're discussing it now aren't we? Don't make me feel bad about what I said because that will make me less inclined to see things your way and thereby cloud my judgment. Besides we are talking about something that is only possible using an optional rule on p.95 of SM.
QUOTE |
As for 'abusing' the spirits... I don't quite get it, particularly if you are using them, say, to possess steel shot. That stuff doesn't get so roughed up in firing and I thought spirits were pretty indifferent to physical stuff, even possessing spirits don't focus much on the state of their host unless they get something out of it, right? |
Doesn't get roughed up? Although the steel itself is not really damaged when the shot is fired, the shot as a whole is completely changed after being fired from the shotgun. One object turns into many tiny objects. Things usually die when they turn into many things. And if this is the case for the spirit, it will instantly make the bullet a normal bullet again.
And materialized spirits surely are not indifferent to physical things in general as they can be affected by them. They might not get hurt much as they have Immunity to Normal Weapons but they'll definitely not like the experience.
If you wouldn't like it, they wouldn't like it:
Do you want to get crammed into a really small tight space? No
Do you want to have an intentional explosion behind you that doesn't hurts? Don't care
Do you want to have an intentional explosion behind you that hurts? No!
Do you want to have your body intentionally spread across a surface? No!
-----
Do you want to do that again some time? Hell no! => Use edge next time to prevent summoning.
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 09:15 AM
One can make many cool concepts for character through this and personally i don't think it is broken as long as the player/character takes the time to build the darn things.
BUT...there are problems, some can be explained through the concept - even the WHY would a spirit want to be confined to a weapon, it all depends on the caster and his/her belief (and he can be a mofo that doesn't care).
The most important thing is astral signature, and lost ammunition.
Imagine lonestar/corpsec/grumpy dragon goeing over the last job the team made...
...And finding a Force 4 spirit trapped in a bullet that has lodged into a wall during the brief firefight with one of the guardian spirits...
Now, how hard would it be for the magically active in question to find out more about the summoner of said spirit, and the prepared vessel (bullet).
I find the concept of a shaman that crafts crossbow bolts of immolation with a fire spirit inside it both fun and imaginative but it will have its drawbacks. I'm also sure that the shaman can give the spirit standing orders that whatever it lodges in when the arrow is hit shall be engulfed by the spirit once and then go back to its home plane.
That still leaves the vessel for someone to find - unless the shaman has made it to burn up by the engulfing...
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 09:19 AM
I would also say that possession of bullets and such would be the WHOLE bullet including the shell. Detonating the shell would most surely damage the spirit.
Throwing daggers, arrows and other muscle powered items would be rather more "safe" for the spirit.
Vessel preparation talks about a "vessel" a singular item, breaking it up into smaller parts (Fragmenting ammunition, firing the bullet) would most likely destroy the vessel, and thus the spirit.
hyzmarca
Jun 4 2007, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (Tarantula) |
How would you rule that? Say its a weapon focus, sword. Adept has missile mastery. Would adept roll only throwing + agi? Throwing + agi + weapon focus dice? Astral combat + will? Astral combat + will + weapon focus dice? |
Since no one has yet addressed this, a weapon focus is only active as long as it is in physical contract with its owner. The second it leaves his hand it becomes a normal weapon.
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 09:33 AM
QUOTE (Tarantula) |
Just a thought to those saying that a character must be "wielding" it for it to count as a magical weapon. How about a possessed arrow, thrown by an adept with missile mastery. Would that work? I suppose it fits the same as if adept had a sword weapon focus, and decided to throw it instead of swing it. |
The sword would be a foci and requires the adept to hold onto it while wielding as his magical force/strenght/mojo is channeled through the foci.
The arrow can be thrown as it contains it's own aura and force through the spirit that it contains...
Oh god...Why am i having the image of a Rigger adept with a Bulldog Stepvan Weapon foci. Rammed by a Bulldog foci at 150 km/hour would hurt like hell.
snowRaven
Jun 4 2007, 11:18 AM
I'd say that any possessed item being used as a ranged weapon would at most do Force/2 in damage to an astral form - that the projectile is astrally active shouldn't by default mean that it will bypass immunity with normal damage, because otherwise a sustaining foci 1 with an active spell in it would bypass immunity.
I would never allow an adept to benefit from his Weapon Focus with a thrown attack, due to the focus becoming inactive.
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 11:43 AM
QUOTE (Aaron) |
Kinetic energy does not exist astrally. |
I’m sorry but it does. Kinetic energy from an adepts fist does the damage – then we add killing hands to gain an astral aspect to the attack.
Why then, if no kinetic energy apply would the adept use his physical strength when dealing damage to spirits with killing hands?
KarmaInferno
Jun 4 2007, 11:44 AM
You're not really hitting your target with a bullet, magical or no.
You're hitting it with a spirit.
So it's not really any different than telling a regular spirit to "go fly through that astrally active target".
The idea that a bullet's speed would be imparting anything significant to the affair is laughable. Spirits can already travel faster than any bullet could hope to move.
Adepts are a bit different. They get to add their muscle power to the damage due to the magical nature of their being.
A gunpowder explosion has no magic to it.
-karma
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 11:53 AM
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 4 2007, 11:44 AM) |
Adepts are a bit different. They get to add their muscle power to the damage due to the magical nature of their being. |
In that case one could say the same about the spirits force adding it’s force to the damage of an attack from a weapon due to it’s magical nature.
Personally I would go with the following:
Astral entity VS spirit ammo: 1 / 2 Force damage (physical bullet does no damage)
Materialized VS spirit ammo: 1 / 2 Force damage & Normal physical damage
Normal physicla damage would be subject to normal immunity rules
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 01:28 PM
Since most of the other points are now being covered by others, I'll just hit this one:
QUOTE |
I would also say that possession of bullets and such would be the WHOLE bullet including the shell. Detonating the shell would most surely damage the spirit. |
Remember that I had originally applied this idea to arrows, and then thought about using it with a black powder firearm. In the latter case, the heavy ball of lead really is the WHOLE thing since the poweder and wadding is seperate.
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 01:35 PM
QUOTE |
Oh god...Why am i having the image of a Rigger adept with a Bulldog Stepvan Weapon foci. Rammed by a Bulldog foci at 150 km/hour would hurt like hell. |
It is cerainly possible for a Spirit to use Possession on a vehicle, including a drone. It won't get anything out of the vehicle's electronics or AR interface, but it can still ram the hell out of stuff and operate integrated equipment (the example of a posessed car describes changing radio stations). Realize that even Guardian Spirits are uanble to get Gunnery (it's a Vehicle skill, not a Combat skill), but they can default on it.
The Jopp
Jun 4 2007, 01:41 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
Since most of the other points are now being covered by others, I'll just hit this one:
Remember that I had originally applied this idea to arrows, and then thought about using it with a black powder firearm. In the latter case, the heavy ball of lead really is the WHOLE thing since the poweder and wadding is seperate. |
Hmm, I think there are drawback to that, but i’m not sure. I agree completely that something like a Minnie ball (sp?) or lead ball would be the whole thing so to speak but wouldn’t the actual chemical explosion be an elemental attack – would the lead-encased spirit be affected? (shouldn’t be a problem as it has a barrier rating, perhaps im just rambling).
Although I don’t think you would get much range out of such a thing.
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 02:39 PM
QUOTE |
Hmm, I think there are drawback to that, but i’m not sure. I agree completely that something like a Minnie ball (sp?) or lead ball would be the whole thing so to speak but wouldn’t the actual chemical explosion be an elemental attack – would the lead-encased spirit be affected? (shouldn’t be a problem as it has a barrier rating, perhaps im just rambling). |
It might be considered an eleental attack, but it wouldn't matter. Even without the toughening effect of Possession, lead balls have survived being fired from black powder weapons for centuries. They typically are not 'damaged' by firing but instead by impact with the target.
QUOTE |
Although I don’t think you would get much range out of such a thing. |
All I'm really looking for is 20-30 yards on the high end. It's still a great improvement over melee range.
Aaron
Jun 4 2007, 05:00 PM
Why not just avoid the argument entirely and have your gun possessed by a spirit of man that knows how to cast manabolt?
silentmaster101
Jun 4 2007, 05:15 PM
or you could just use stick and shock as its half-impact armor rule cuts immunity to normal weapons down to normal armor, and since spirits dont have a seperate stun track....
HappyDaze
Jun 4 2007, 07:13 PM
QUOTE |
or you could just use stick and shock as its half-impact armor rule cuts immunity to normal weapons down to normal armor, and since spirits dont have a seperate stun track.... |
My group would actualluy have less trouble accepting possessed bullets being effective against Spirits than they would with the idea that stick-n-shock - or even APDS - is somehow more effective againt them. The flavor just sounds terrible even if it is RAW.
Aaron
Jun 4 2007, 10:32 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
QUOTE | or you could just use stick and shock as its half-impact armor rule cuts immunity to normal weapons down to normal armor, and since spirits dont have a seperate stun track.... |
My group would actualluy have less trouble accepting possessed bullets being effective against Spirits than they would with the idea that stick-n-shock - or even APDS - is somehow more effective againt them. The flavor just sounds terrible even if it is RAW.
|
I think the idea is that materialization is similar to astral projection, except that going the other way sticks one to a body rather than freeing one from it. And since astral injuries also affect the body, it makes sense that the same is true for the physical body. Assuming one can get past the armor, of course.
WhiskeyMac
Jun 4 2007, 10:42 PM
Just to make sure I'm understanding what you want HappyDaze: You want someone to be able to use a bullet/arrow/lead shot possessed by a spirit, using an optional rule in Street Magic, to bypass and hurt something that has Immunity to Normal Weapons? And you are saying that the fact of the possession makes the bullet/arrow/lead shot a magic weapon for the purpose of bypassing said Immunity to Normal Weapons on the physical plane? (Since Astral Ammo is against the spirit of the rules since the inception of Shadowrun back in 19XX and therefore no ranged astral weapons exist)
To me this just sounds like you have something in your head that you need to have the rules verify so you don't sound like you are making up a house rule. I just don't think you are interpreting the rules right, but everyone does it differently.
APDS doesn't make sense against spirits but Stick-N-Shock and Tasers do. Against a materialized spirit only, not a manifest spirit. Why? Because the elemental effect of electricity exciting electrons in said manifested spirit's corporal body.
Course, as a house rule, you could make the ammo kinda like Caster bullets from Outlaw Star. Super rare but terrifying when used. I don't think you should have a PC make his/her own bullets unless they become a NPC or devote most of their time to the production of said bullets.
On a side note: A lot of the "I think this is broken, please don't mention it again." talk is an antidote to the spread of cancer to Shadowrun. SR can become pretty munchy just using the standard RAW without introducing weird magical or technological nightmares. D20 games have a severe problem with oneupmanshipness (don't think that's a word) and each supplement has to be bigger and better until everyone is so outrageous that you might as well just sit there as GM and say "You Win. I'm going home. Please don't ever call me again."
HappyDaze
Jun 5 2007, 04:14 AM
QUOTE |
Just to make sure I'm understanding what you want HappyDaze: You want someone to be able to use a bullet/arrow/lead shot possessed by a spirit, using an optional rule in Street Magic, to bypass and hurt something that has Immunity to Normal Weapons? |
The optional rule isn't necessary - I won't be using it myself - but otherwise, yes.
fool
Jun 5 2007, 08:20 PM
I brought this whole subject up about 3-5 months ago, but didn't get nearly this man responses.
WHat I would say regarding this question is that if the astral being (spirit, astrally projecting mage etc.) is hit by a bullet possessed by a spirit (either watcher or regula spirit,) the astral being takes damage normal to that type of weapon, not adjusted for ammunition type, but boosted by net hits and burst/full auto. But when creatures are astral, they aren't getting any immunity to normal weapons because said weapons are astral not normal.
The same holds pretty much true for dual natured beings with immunity to normal. weapons, but not to non dual natured creatures with immunity to normal weapons.
The cool image from the previous discussion that someone brought up is if you have a whole bunch of bullets done up as vessels, and say 7 spirits and 7 watchers, you can have them keep occupying the vessel/bullets and act as astral full lead hose. the person described this as a spirit slip and slide.
Moon-Hawk
Jun 5 2007, 08:27 PM
What damage would a watcher take from being fired out of a gun?
All in all, even if you could make this work it would be in all ways inferior to just telling the spirit to go attack something.
HappyDaze
Jun 5 2007, 09:11 PM
QUOTE |
All in all, even if you could make this work it would be in all ways inferior to just telling the spirit to go attack something. |
It's not inferior in cool points!
Also, it has the nice effect that the Spirit would defend with Reaction alone as opposed to the larger pool used to defend from either melee attacks or Astral Combat.
This also gives a spirit a chance to do WAY better on that opening shot than it could normally do in combat. If I shoot a Force 3 Spirit-bullet at a materialized Force 8 Spirit, I can still do some damage if my Agility + Firearms (+ Smartlink, etc.) is high enough. If I just send that Force 3 in to fight the Force 8, it's not going to accomplish much.
hyzmarca
Jun 5 2007, 09:39 PM
Personally, shooting for one material spirit with another I'd use the forcing through barriers rules instead of the standard damage rules.
Tarantula
Jun 6 2007, 06:56 AM
Just a quick thought I had. If we take Mr. Lucky. And give him a gun. Have him make a called show to avoid armor on the materialized spirit (And, the dicepool penalty for avoiding "Immune to Normal Weapons" is what?) Assume he makes it as a longshot test, and bam, dead spirit, and a not so dead Mr. Lucky.
Would it actually fly in any game? I doubt it. Is it legal by RAW? I'm not so sure, but I'd like to find out.