I've had a couple questions about various militarys in the Shadowrun world. The UCAS is my primary concern, though information on the Tir Tariengire, CAS, and CFS would be appreciated. I'm looking for the following information:

Equipment:
Sidearms
Assault Rifles
Sub-Machine Guns
Shotguns

Organization:
Ranking System (Paygrades)
Structure of Services
Services
Structure of Regiments, Ships, etc.
Uniform Descriptions

This is my first post here, and I hope I can get information here that I haven't been able to get elsewhere. Thanks!

-capt20
"Lieutenant Rheiv Jyden" SR: Seattle MUSH

I haven't got CC, SOTA63, SoNA, or older books like Fields of Fire or in fact anything that would have info about the things you asked about. So I'm just gonna talk out of my ass and make stupid assumptions and totally uninformed guesses. Enjoy.

UCAS:
Assault Rifles:
Colt M22A2. I'm pretty sure that's canon. Probably shouldn't give them ALL GLs though, and SL+Goggles would probably be a good idea (if not too expensive). CAS probably uses M22A2s as well. Maybe even CFS (unless they've got some weird japanese toy weapons).
Sidearms:
Ares Predator? That and Beretta 101T & Colt L36 are the most likely candidates for any North American army, or maybe even Colt Manhunter (the Laser Sight on it doesn't fit the job very well, however).
SMGs:
HK227 or MP-5 TX. Probably HK227. But SMGs aren't very likely to be widely used by armies anyway (because pistol rounds will most likely be too weak to penetrate any type of body armor -- this trend can already be seen in the way US SOF are using more and more of M4s and M177s instead of MP5s), and the few that will be used are probably for special forces, which will generally use whatever they find best. Not very likely that there's a canon answer to this.
Shotguns:
Remington 990? Simply because (AFAIK) Remingtons are common in military use IRL. Or maybe Mossberg CMDT, it has that "military feel" to it. Again, not a very common weapon, and not very likely to be referred to in canon.

Ranking System:
Take the current system, perhaps slap on some mage ranks. I'm pretty sure you won't find an answer to this in canon.

I won't even try to guess what would happen to the structure of services, units or uniform descriptions, although the last one you might find in some sourcebook or novel. Maybe.

There has been tons of discussion about what kind of weapons armies would "really" be employing in the SR world, but since I can't recall how to search the old forums I'll have to let someone else link them to you. If you're at all interested in that kind of stuff, that is.

Hasn't someone compiled a military list for SR yet? It sounds like a project someone would have done by now.

-Siege

http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/

Eric Johnson and James Meiers had this site running full-bore a couple years ago, but it's sorta died out since then. I had written up a history of ConsOps for them, but I don't see it on the site anymore.

I have plenty of data on SR military (at least in my gaming world) that I would be happy to send out to anyone who wants it.

Also, if anyone out there is thinking about getting a Shadowrun Miliatry resource up and running, I'd be more than happy to be a contributor.

If you want any of the info I've compiled, send me an e-mail @ clouviere@approsystems.com or AIM me @ TheOneRonin.

I would figure mage to fall under a special officer status. Kind of like Chaplains and Doctors.

My guess is that mages would be Warrant Officers. They would in the UCAS Army anyway.

Well, Doctors and Chaplains are mostly non-combat, and I guess a lot of mages would be too. But there would be some combat mages and I think they would have officer rank. I figure the amount of training needed to produce a mage wolud bump them up.

For a crude outline of command structure, check out SOTA:2063 pg. 61

Oh, I forgot, in our games only special forces get real cyberware. They have to sign a release when they join Special Forces (in UCAS) as well as becoming a fighter pilot (included fets, t-birds, and choppers but not non-combat aircraft).

So, for us, most tank drivers ane not riggers, but t-bird pilots are.

Ammunition for some submachine guns are going toward the cut down rifle cartridge now, here us are some good examples: MP7, H&K 227, and P90. These three submachine guns have very good penetration out to 200m, but because of they are designed to be more effective against armor they lack some stopping power. I am sure there will be more submachine guns that will be chambered to these types of ammunition in the future, considering how prolific armor is with armed criminals <read Shadowrunner>.

Todays BDUs and helmets are being designed so that they can protect against chemical weapons to a degree and are able to seal up decently from what I hear. I can see standard issue BDUs in SR being very chemical resistant, and be able to be sealed with special issue filter masks and other breathing apparatuses. The BDUs would also be made of ballistic cloth <duh> because of how much more efficient it is in the SR world.

Hero, the HK 227 is not a real weapon, it's a total SR convention. The MP7 and P90 are, however. But I see more of a move to shrinking down the size of assault rifles for CQB work...stuff like the HK G36C and the M-4 carbine are far better suited for CQB when the tangos have body armor. And the G36C (with the stock folded) is smaller than an MP5.

5.56 cartridges are very managable in small-frame assault rifles, and perform better ballistically than the 5.7 (P90) or 5.6 (MP7) rounds.

Raygun probably has a lot more detail he can add to this.

Oh yes, the P90/MP7 line of discussion has been done before. (And BTW, the caliber of the MP7 is actually 4.6, though that might have been a typo from you TheOneRonin.) I think the consensus is that they are too lacking in terminal ballistics to be extensively used by militaries. Maybe for vehicle crews or in other special situations where you need a very compact weapon.

I think Hero was confused by the HK227 found on Raygun's site, which is Raygun's remake of the canon SR HK227.
Again, being able to search the Old Forums would be a blessing...

Ooops.

I wish I could call it a typo. Rather I was typing too qucikly and not fact checking. Yes, 4.6mm is correct. I was wrong.

<hangs head in shame>

*laughs* Man, started this so I could figure out what pistol to customize in the game. I always thought it might be the Browning MP or UP myself, that the ucas would use. As far as Magic goes, It be a separate MOS, mabye even in the 11 Group in the UCAS Army. I'm sure it would be a different rating in the Marine Corps, though the nature of magic would probably be taken into account. Combat mages might be infantry or Specialized Gunner's Mates. Healing Mages may be a different kinda a corpsman.

http://lists.dumpshock.com/pipermail/shado...113/039909.html

This site gives a pretty concise argument that the SMG the service might use would be the Colt Cobra. But it didn't answer a lot of my questions. With equipment, I'm looking for model numbers. Keep this going though. Bringing up topics I didn't think of.

I've always assumed the UCAS Army be the U.S. Army with two extra letters. If anyone has anything different, I would like to hear it. Also, info on how deckers fall into the service would be appreciated. I've been under the impression, again, that they would be separated into separate MOS's depending on the level of hostility needed.

[Edit]OOPS! So it seems it is canon that the UCAS Army service SMG is the Colt Cobra. Well, that has got to suck. No more H&Ks. Urgh. Well, Not In My Game.[/Edit]

UCAS Air Force new MOS's for specialized Troops

Officers
Shamans of any type, with own MOS links to combat support squadrons.
Mages of any type, linked to combat support squadrons.
-Magical countermeasures
-Magical intelligence/counterintelligence
-Magical Troop support
Riggers operating Air Support (I would think all pilots would be Riggers)
Cybernetic infantry commanders
Drone Battle Commanders
Corp liasions (work under the IG to deal with the laws regarding Corps)

Enlisted
Deckers falling under old crpytography/signals intelligence MOS in com squadrons.
Rigger's operating ground support (commanders would be officers)
Cybernetic infantry
Drone battle support

Well, as for pistols, I doubt UCAS grunts would carry sidearms. No real need. MPs, some Officers, REMFs, and SOCOM units would be issued sidearms, however. Probably something along the lines of the Colt ManHunter (hello, updated 1911 for ya), or maybe a Predator 3 for the SOCOM boys.

I think the Army would have a whole separate Thaumaturgical Corps, and would assign detachments as nesessary. Warrant officers seems just about right, with the college-educated ones being full-blown officers, natch. Your Speical Operations type units might have permanent mage slots, however, and would most likely not be considered a part of the Thaumaturgical Corps.

As for SMGs...until recently, only your Special Ops types and some Pilots really ever handled them. And now, with the proliferation of body armor, even your SpecOps units are moving to carbines. Pistol rounds just don't cut it. The only time I think we will really see them in SR is in hostage type situations when you need rounds that will not overpenetrate (9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP).

As for Deckers, I'd put them under Army Intel with a specialization in information systems/warfare. In all honesty, the Chair Force would probably have better deckers, but that's just my opinion. And again, I think your SpecOps communication NCOs would probably well versed in decking.

Alright, so all the mage and decker stuff is well and good. Glad to see someone thinks along the lines of "Informations Systems Warfare." Pistols would still be used by the military, I would think, if nothing else, then to do what pistols were always supposed to do. Be used by personnel that, for some logistical or other purpose, weren't in a position to carry a rifle or carbine. Police, Officers, NCOs, etc. PDWs would probably be used by REMF's, as well as tank drivers and the like, but I would think they would all be trained, and have some sort of firearm holstered at there thigh. Thinking the Colt Manhunter may be the best way to go, but its new. You have to think when the last contract was put up. What was the best weapon to go with. The Predator may have been two large for the military's tastes for a pistol, except for the SOGs. Thats my reasoning for the Browning MP. Good heavy pistol, small enough to be carried without much trouble. And best of all, cheap.

there was a SR novel dealing with the military. I don't remember the name because I read it so long ago. In it mages were regular officers; captains, majors and such. I don't think they were usually attached to anything less then a battalion for a regular line (leg) unit. However SF groups would most likely have them at Company level. As for guns I don't think shotguns, SMGs, or pistols would be common for anything less then SF or other specialized roles (MP, VIP guard details, MI). IF I can remember the name of the book I'll post it.

Intel and counter intel done in a combat area's is almost always joint nowdays. As we move forward to the DOD vision of joint 20/20 more and more of the system operations will be joint. By the time the military reaches 2060 I would say it would be more of a factor of finding "the best man for the job" instead of "the best branch for the job".

And the Navy is on par with the Air Force when it comes to signals intel by today's standards, but the Air Force does control all of the Satalites.

Well from Big City and Brainscan army grunts have been written as wearing Armoured Jackets 5/3, Colt M22A2's as their weapon and goggles for low light, flare compensation and smartlink IIRC. No cyberware for the enlisted since it just wouldn't be cost-effective. Bug City also had the officers having the Beretta 101T as their personal sidearm. Oh and Canon Companion mentions that the UCAS military also uses Stoner-Ares M107 heavy machine gun. That's the most I can think of off the top of my head.

Post removed

Not to belabor the point, but I believe you'll find that whether it is in print or not has nothing to do with whether something is covered under the law. The material is still considered to be Intellectual Property, and the illegal distribution of such is considered piracy.

PR

Datajacks are cheap and relatively common. Which means even grunts could afford the implants if they wanted them.

For that matter, low-light and flare comp mods would be relatively popular -- just because night-fighting sucks and current goggle technology (so I'm told) still sucks for the lack of peripheral vision.

Subdermal speakers and subvocal mics would be invaluable and relatively cheap to implant. Hell, I'd opt for the implants if I was gonna stroll into a combat zone.

-Siege

You call a grand, plus implant costs, cheap? Seriously, I could see it for officers that handle over a certain amount of data. But the amount that the military is currently paid, factor in the general downslide of the UCAS, and I can't see many of them spending that amount of their own cash when trode rigs can be a fair alternative for some things for a lot less money. And on goggles, well since this isn't current tech but fifty/sixty years in the future...

A grand -- SI cost makes it cheaper than that.

For how much of a return? Being able to jack into your commo gear alone would be wonderful -- especially if you spend an extra 650 for the subvocal mic and subdermal speakers.

Hell, you've got families now chipping in to buy their sons and daughters body armor since the Army is running behind production.

As much as I advocate the benefits of trodes, it takes two combat turns to attach and risk getting dislodged in the fury of battle which can just frag your day because stopping to adjust your gear can be fatal.

-Siege

Edit: And the SR1 goggles were lifted directly from current pics.

If it was mentioned in Sourcebooks, then thats what I want. But I tend to stay away from Novels for real support on universe aspects. Although Timeline aspects may be good to go, I've read one book, Psychotrophe, that didn't even describe separate services, simply used the Armed Forces. Didn't use MOS's, or anything like that in personnel files. Although I think the book was pretty good, it annoyed me a little bit, but I'm a stickler on those things. But if it was referred to in Sourcebooks, I'm good to go with it. Also, that one passage about a UCAS light infantry squad looks pretty good, though I think many of us can assume that UCAS military structure will be much the same as the U.S. Military structure. With some changes of course, due to the major changes in the world.

Mages may not be common enough to outfit each squad with it's own magical asset.

-Siege

I agree with Siege. Canon aside, I would see mages having their own Corps and being attached, as needed to different units, and most likely no lower than company level. The only common exception I think would be SpecOps. Each A-team would probably have a mage, or the equivilent.

As for cyber...at the enlisted level I doubt you would see much in the way of military-provided cyber. I was an enlisted infantryman for 6 years, and I would have purchased my own Low-light cyber eyes in a heartbeat (or as soon as I had the extra couple of grand for it). Yeah, the goggles do suck. However, I think the general turnover for enlisted people is just to high to justify an investment in cyberware. Especially when you can come pretty close with external gear and just pass it on to the next grunt when the previous one ETSs.

Your senior NCOs (E-7+) might be offered some, and your elite units like Rangers and whatnot would probably get a little too, but again, that would mostly be your NCOs, or people who are willing to sign 8-10 year contracts.

And if you want pics, the Street Samurai Guide and Fields of Fire are your best sourcebooks for that. I'm pretty sure they are both out of print, but you can always find a copy on eBay.

Okay, I knew I'd seen it somewhere. The adventure Brainscan has stats for UCAS Army infantry soldiers, cybered soldiers, a mage, and a rigger. Pages 81-82.

They use the Colt M22-A2 rifles except the mage who has a Browning Max-Power pistol. I think the mage has a pistol because he's an officer, but it could just as easily be because he needs his hands free for magic. The adventure does not reveal any rank.

I while ago I seriously investigated the makeup of a Marine Expiditionary Unit for conversion to SR. I spent way too much time developing an SR version complete with support troops. For myself I decided that in the Ground Combat Element there would be:

Rifle Battalion (it's commo platoon are deckers and in the weapons company the assault platoon uses rigged drones)
Artillary Battery (no railguns for indirect fire)
Tank Platoon (not rigged)
Arcane Combat Platoon (officers, warrant officers, and high ranking non-coms)
Amphibious Assault Platoon (assault/personnel hovercraft)
Recon Platoon (the individual soldiers most likely to be a match for runners. A team is composed of one team leader [Alpha], one corpman [Bravo], one heavy gunner [Charlie], one scout/sniper [Delta], one decker [Echo], and one mage [X-ray])
Light Armor Recon Company (not rigged)
Combat Engineering Platoon

In the Command Element:
S-2 Intel (includes a mage and a recon drone rigger as intel specialists)
S-6 Commo (most of the offensive decking is handled here)

That's part of what I put together. Unfortunately none of it is electronic or I'd send it to whomever wanted to document my obsessiveness.

I think Mages are inserted directly in the line of command as officers. I remeber that when Ghostwalker cracked open the Watergate Rift a Second Leutenant who was a bear shaman died.

Or they may be supernumerary- not in the line of command except under extraordinary circumstances.

Being magically active doesn't confer the ability to function as an officer. I would imagine they would get consideration in pay and a certain rank above strict rank-and-file, but not inserted directly into the chain of command.

-Siege

Hence the supernumerary.

Mages have to be able to interface with all levels, so they'll need the additional training you get as an officer. Oh, and the pay and benefits would help aid retention.

A college education doesn't mean you'll be a good officer either, but if you make it through Basic School and OCS you'll be a 2nd Lt. That's what the training is for, to make officers and weed out those that can't be made.

But I think you're right that mages would be out of the ordinary chain of command.

I removed it buddy. I removed it, I apologized for it, and I understand. So in good curtosy, can you please drop the subject?

Actually, I thought it was a valid question from the beginning.

But, consider it dropped.

A college degree implies a certain capacity to think -- more or less.

Magical ability means you can blow stuff up really good -- or summon spirits, etc. etc. None of which contributes to your maybe ability to think.

It would be like promoting officers because they're bigger, stronger and/or faster than their fellow recruits.

Now, the special pay and benefits...that's a gimmie.

-Siege

Okay, I'll give. Mages need not be officers. Really, I didn't see that as an absolute anyway. In my earlier post I mentioned that the Arcane Combat Platoon would have non-coms too.

One thing you might se is specialists for different types of magic. For example: A Company Ritual Specialist, or Brigade Enchanter. Kinda like how the military does armorers, mechanics, and ordinance techs.

Well, I have serious doubts about why mages wouldn't be officers.

The first reason is that AFAIK the lion's share of practical legitimate magical training are at universities (at least in North America). At the very least, I'd prefer mages to have more education than simply high school equivalent--and I can't think of a better place to recruit mages that some of the more elite magical studies programs at American universities.

Given that, and the policy(?) in the UCAS/CAS to test for magical aptitude, I can imagine that the military would like to funnel them into the officer corps because it means more pay and prestige than enlisted (especially given who they have to compete with in recruiting mages), and because I can't see the point of an enlisted mage. Which is why they'd probably have several spots for ROTC, OCS and the service academies (well, mainly the Military Academy) essentially reserved for magical students so that once they graduate they can be placed in the Thaumaturgical Corps (which is AFAIK canon and in some SBs)--provided that they then go through essentially graduate-level magical warfare and theory studies so that they not only know how to kill people with magic, but can use their skills to develop magical applications for military uses (And this isn't really a stretch when you think of such military colleges as the Joint Intelligence College, which offers a M.S. in Strategic Intelligence, or the Army JAG's law school which offers a LL.M. in Military Law). I mean, what really makes them any different from the lawyers, doctors, chaplains, and specialized officers (i.e., pilots) that join the military in their professional capacities? All of those people require specialized training to perform the functions of their professions--and so do mages worth a damn in the SINner world. AFAIK, mages must be licensed in the SINner world--just like dozens of other trained professions, overseen by professional associations and the states (or FedGov in a few rare cases). That fact as well might influence whether mages are Officers or not. I could verey easily see a demand for special treatment for mages, and the military's not the only entity that is looking for well-trained mages.

Of course, I'm biased. I think a mage should have enough training in magical theory and applicable skills to be more than just a breathing artillery piece. I think that mages would have to have a specific amount of training and skills that, IMO, only universities can provide.