Full Version: Military Organization, Equipment, etc.
Unless they are shamans. Although military service won't appeal to many shamans, there are some that could work in a military setting- Dog and Wolf pop to mind immediately, and a Bear shaman died at the Watergate rift in YotC.
Yeah, but I don't think that informally trained shamans have a lobby like the Hermetics would. And I don't see a lot of exceptions being made if in exchange for a certain amount of required formal education mages would be made officers; officers who fall outside of the regular chain of command and get to get away with almost anything.
Shamans have universities and studies, and so on. Just because the teaching includes dancing and singing, learning to pray and such doesn't invalidate it.
I still stand by mages being automatically officers. They're too rare and important to be anything else.
Now, just because their an officer doesn't mean they have to be able to give orders. Surely, some mages will become majors, colonels, etc., but most will remain as supernumeraries, assigned wherever their CO thinks they need to be.
Now, just because their an officer doesn't mean they have to be able to give orders. Surely, some mages will become majors, colonels, etc., but most will remain as supernumeraries, assigned wherever their CO thinks they need to be.
Easy: And every grunt has to be reasonably intelligent, possessing a high school diploma. (obscure parallel to minimum physical requirements of all recruits)
But you wouldn't pick the biggest linebacker and promote him to officer status based solely on his ability to pick up large, blunt objects.
As for the butter bars, well -- yes but in theory they have proven they can learn, whether or not they know a bloody thing.
As for breathing artillery pieces -- maybe, maybe not. A dim-witted mage or one who just doesn't grasp higher magical theory would probably still be drilled in some form of useful magical practice if so desired especially since mage-capable critters are few and far between.
-Siege
But you wouldn't pick the biggest linebacker and promote him to officer status based solely on his ability to pick up large, blunt objects.
As for the butter bars, well -- yes but in theory they have proven they can learn, whether or not they know a bloody thing.
As for breathing artillery pieces -- maybe, maybe not. A dim-witted mage or one who just doesn't grasp higher magical theory would probably still be drilled in some form of useful magical practice if so desired especially since mage-capable critters are few and far between.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Being magically active doesn't confer the ability to function as an officer. I would imagine they would get consideration in pay and a certain rank above strict rank-and-file, but not inserted directly into the chain of command. -Siege |
Being a lawyer or a priest doesn't confer the ability to function as an officer either, but both are officer's posts. The reason for this is that they are specialists who aren't nescessarily inclined to be military. Rather than alienate a good lot of potential candidates by having them slog around in the mud with the grunts, they're given bars instead of chevrons.
Hey Siege... in the Air Force, what's the difference between a butter bar and an airman.
Airman's been promoted once
Airman's been promoted once
| QUOTE (Digital Heroin) | ||
Being a lawyer or a priest doesn't confer the ability to function as an officer either, but both are officer's posts. The reason for this is that they are specialists who aren't nescessarily inclined to be military. Rather than alienate a good lot of potential candidates by having them slog around in the mud with the grunts, they're given bars instead of chevrons. |
Good point -- now, would a lawyer or priest be placed in a position of directing troops in a combat situation?
-Siege
Auuugghh!!!! They're supernumerary!
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Good point -- now, would a lawyer or priest be placed in a position of directing troops in a combat situation? |
No, but neither would a doctor, who would also be considered an officer. The point being that the rank has more to do with the privileges than it would with the responsibilities involved.
Directing troops in combat as very little to do with officers in the Air Force. We have a tradition of sending the officers out to die first while the Airmen get the next plane moving. Ground troops are often directed by a SNCO that get his orders from a company grade officer, who in turn gets his orders from the commander. When it comes to doing the job, it is the NCO's that are in charge.
Some officers are management, they tells us what they want done based on the mission. They administrate and allocate resources.
Some officers are professionals, highly trained for years to get to a particular job.
Some officers are commanders, company grade officers that plan engagement and command the troops and weapons of war, thier training is in professional leadership, tradition and thier weapons.
Just because someone is a Captain, that dosn't make them automatically capeable of leading troops. And chain of command means very little once you cross mission lines.
For example, a Communications commander (will assume he is a O-5) comes to me (a dirtboy Civil Engineer moving dirt) and tells me to do something that goes against my mission as a Dirtboy. I can effectively and respectively ignore him as far as the order goes, and refer him to my Commanders's support staff.
even though he outranks me, he has nothing to do with my chain of command. He's not my commander. He's job is Com. My job is moving dirt and repairing runways.
If a mage in the UCAS military is an officer, his only chain of command extends down to those beneath him (most likely other mages). Now he might be given a small number of mundane grunts to command. But those grunts will often have orders of thier own, i.e. keep the mages secure. Now the Mage in charge can give those grunt orders, sure. But he can't give an order the contridicts the mission.
Doctors, most of them being Lt. Col or Col. Are removed from the core of the command. .
Chaplains are also outside of the command. There are some things that no one, beneath the President can order a Chaplain to do. Chaplains often don't even report to the base commander. They report up thier own chain of command to the Chaplain general. Sure they are there to help the commander, but he dosn't give them thier mission.
Lawyers, Inspectors, Certain Intel jobs, Meterologists. This stuff gets complicated. Really complicted when it comes to who can and can't give orders to who. Sure, it's supposed to be, officers give the orders and enlisted do it. And thats the general rule, but the more you look at it the more complcated it gets.
--
Here is another idea, what if. The Thaum corps have nothing to do with the military? What if it is made a civilian band position. Like FBI, CIA and non-military DOD. There have been times where I have taken orders from a civilian. I have also worked side by side with GS positions doing the same mission, just answering to a different set of rules and getting paid with different funding. There are sometimes when having a civilian there is better, like with investigations because DOD's military jurisdiction ends fast once you leave DOD military property. Maybe mages would fall into this catagory instead. Considering the special legal rules regarding the Astral.
Some officers are management, they tells us what they want done based on the mission. They administrate and allocate resources.
Some officers are professionals, highly trained for years to get to a particular job.
Some officers are commanders, company grade officers that plan engagement and command the troops and weapons of war, thier training is in professional leadership, tradition and thier weapons.
Just because someone is a Captain, that dosn't make them automatically capeable of leading troops. And chain of command means very little once you cross mission lines.
For example, a Communications commander (will assume he is a O-5) comes to me (a dirtboy Civil Engineer moving dirt) and tells me to do something that goes against my mission as a Dirtboy. I can effectively and respectively ignore him as far as the order goes, and refer him to my Commanders's support staff.
even though he outranks me, he has nothing to do with my chain of command. He's not my commander. He's job is Com. My job is moving dirt and repairing runways.
If a mage in the UCAS military is an officer, his only chain of command extends down to those beneath him (most likely other mages). Now he might be given a small number of mundane grunts to command. But those grunts will often have orders of thier own, i.e. keep the mages secure. Now the Mage in charge can give those grunt orders, sure. But he can't give an order the contridicts the mission.
Doctors, most of them being Lt. Col or Col. Are removed from the core of the command. .
Chaplains are also outside of the command. There are some things that no one, beneath the President can order a Chaplain to do. Chaplains often don't even report to the base commander. They report up thier own chain of command to the Chaplain general. Sure they are there to help the commander, but he dosn't give them thier mission.
Lawyers, Inspectors, Certain Intel jobs, Meterologists. This stuff gets complicated. Really complicted when it comes to who can and can't give orders to who. Sure, it's supposed to be, officers give the orders and enlisted do it. And thats the general rule, but the more you look at it the more complcated it gets.
--
Here is another idea, what if. The Thaum corps have nothing to do with the military? What if it is made a civilian band position. Like FBI, CIA and non-military DOD. There have been times where I have taken orders from a civilian. I have also worked side by side with GS positions doing the same mission, just answering to a different set of rules and getting paid with different funding. There are sometimes when having a civilian there is better, like with investigations because DOD's military jurisdiction ends fast once you leave DOD military property. Maybe mages would fall into this catagory instead. Considering the special legal rules regarding the Astral.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Shamans have universities and studies, and so on. Just because the teaching includes dancing and singing, learning to pray and such doesn't invalidate it. |
Yes. Hence my use of the words informally trained shamans.
easytohate, Digital Heroin and moosegod make excellent points. DH made an especially interesting point:
Why would I want--upon graduating from law or medical school (predisposing of undergrads or "professional" grad students in ROTC) to enlist? Hell, I wouldn't expect anything less than to become an officer if I wanted to join the military, and especially to utilize the very skills that I just spent an extra 3+ years (post-baccalaureate) and God knows how much money developing? Hell, I'd only apply to OCS if I just had an undergraduate degree on principle. I can't see this as any different from the perspectives that mages would bring. Foremost because the more appealing ones would have college or graduate education, thus precluding (at least in their minds, for sure) anything less than officer status. Secondly, it would be used as an enticement for the military to recruit mages if they got to go to, say, MIT&M or Georgetown to study Magical (Occult at Gtown) Studies for free (and those two are DAMN expensive) in return for a "few" years of mandatory service and military training that would make them damn valuable in the private sector. Third, it would be virtually useless to take "raw" Awakened talent (which is what I expect of anyone with the Talent who hasn't been sccoped up by some other entity by the time they're old enough to enlist) and train them--essentially by putting them through a college-level program and keep them as Enlisted soldiers. That's null if they go to West Point, but what about everyone else? Especially when there's a pool of talent being produced in universities across the continent and a system already in place to take college-educated persons interested in the military and put them into the military via the Officers corps: ROTC, and OCS.
Mind you, I have no doubt; None; that the military operates at least one (almost assuredly Joint) Magical Warfare School. I wouldn't be surprised if it was sufficiently comprohensive and accredited to give out graduate degrees in Magical Studies. However, I can't believe that it would be for the purposes of taking raw 18 year-old enlisted recruits and training them essentially from the ground up in magical studies.
Another aside, there is one branch that lets its lawyers command troops in combat. These JAG officers can request, or be ordered, to be deployed into combat roles. This also means that the JAG officers are required to meet the (physical) requirements of all offficer candidates in addition to those to serve as a JAG officer (i.e., being a lawyer). But that's because the branch's philosophy is imposed on JAG officer OCS as well as its basic officers--to train them as combat officers first, and military lawyers second. It's the Marine Corps.
Marines. Keep the Army to hold the Ground, the Air Force to fart around and the Navy to get the Marines there.
| QUOTE (easytohate) |
| Doctors, most of them being Lt. Col or Col. Are removed from the core of the command. . |
Minor quibble: I wouldn't say "most." Light Birds or Full Birds tend to have command in hospitals and their like. Most of your doctors are actually Captains and Majors, at least in the Army. (I ought to know: my mother was an Army doctor.)
...and the acting doctor responsible of the regiment-sized unit I was in most of my service was usually a conscript "officer-student", ranking lower than an enlisted corporal. But that was Finnish DF, and has nothing to do with this discussion.
Sorry about that.
Sorry about that.
I think were all underestimating how /highly/ an enlisted man or woman can be trained. Given, I don't think were gonna have a Private or even a Corporal as a Mage, but Think Warrant Officer here. Mabye some 'raw' talent did join up. Whats the say the Army doesn't put em through boot and then ship em off to that school for there MOS, and then attach them as an integral part of an infantry company. Remember that each of these Officer status things were talking about, Lawyers Doctors and so on, have enlisted working under them with the proper skills, Hospital Corpsman, Legal Clerks. Whats to say the Mages would be any different?
Well, aside from training? Lawyers have 3 years of graduate level training after college, plus the accreditation from taking a state's bar exam (depending on the state, the passage rate could be between 92% (Utah) to 50%(California)). Doctors have 3-4 (Don't know for sure, and at this point don't care). Paralegals are about college-educated. Anyone else is doing little more than pushing paper and filing things--which isn't rocket science. As for corpsmen and the like--the same thing applies. You can have EMTS or nurse, or doctors. They deserve the $100,000+ salary because they spent several more years in school and in the grand scheme of things know more than a EMT or nurse. Paralegals may know all sorts of things, but the only person they'll ever be allowed to represent in court is themself.
And while years of experience mean a great deal with these groups (as it does when comparing a butter bar with a hardened First Sergeant) there is absolutely no point in not having mages trained to as high a level as possible from the start. A nurse is a nurse or a paralegal is a paralegal. They probably known all sorts of stuff that a green lawyer or doctor might not. However, the difference is that they will NEVER in that capacity be able to do things that a lawyer or a doctor can--even if they've just graduated/passed the bar. The same applies to mages. While there may be a different system in place to deal with Aspected and Adepts--the nurses of the magical world--there are things that a full blown mage was trained to do and will be able to do that they will never be able to do. And to cut corners in training the mages is not only a waste of resources--it's really f-ing stupid.
You also have to consider context. Anyone who is 18 and isn't owned by a corp is a potential asset, but they're also probably untrained and virtually useless. Meanwhile, they can go to college and learn all sorts of theory and skills that would cost the military a fortune--and all the military has to do is offer them a ROTC scholarship or priority in OCS in order to get them to join as officers with perks.
Anything else just doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
But I think the proper analogy is a pilot. Realistically, you don't have to be a college grad to learn to fly. But the military insists that its pilots are. I have yet to see a reason why the same thing shouldn't apply to mages.
And while years of experience mean a great deal with these groups (as it does when comparing a butter bar with a hardened First Sergeant) there is absolutely no point in not having mages trained to as high a level as possible from the start. A nurse is a nurse or a paralegal is a paralegal. They probably known all sorts of stuff that a green lawyer or doctor might not. However, the difference is that they will NEVER in that capacity be able to do things that a lawyer or a doctor can--even if they've just graduated/passed the bar. The same applies to mages. While there may be a different system in place to deal with Aspected and Adepts--the nurses of the magical world--there are things that a full blown mage was trained to do and will be able to do that they will never be able to do. And to cut corners in training the mages is not only a waste of resources--it's really f-ing stupid.
You also have to consider context. Anyone who is 18 and isn't owned by a corp is a potential asset, but they're also probably untrained and virtually useless. Meanwhile, they can go to college and learn all sorts of theory and skills that would cost the military a fortune--and all the military has to do is offer them a ROTC scholarship or priority in OCS in order to get them to join as officers with perks.
Anything else just doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
But I think the proper analogy is a pilot. Realistically, you don't have to be a college grad to learn to fly. But the military insists that its pilots are. I have yet to see a reason why the same thing shouldn't apply to mages.
Cause you could train almost anyone to fly with enough motivation and effort -- you can't teach someone to become magically active.
Other than that, I agree completely. Any street rat who becomes magically active would probably get some serious recruiting from interested parties, not unlike would-be sports celebrities today.
-Siege
Other than that, I agree completely. Any street rat who becomes magically active would probably get some serious recruiting from interested parties, not unlike would-be sports celebrities today.
-Siege
Only airplanes. Helos are a whole 'nother story.
Completely unrelated to the current drift of the thread, but it looks like the US Army is looking to start phasing out the M-16 as the standard issue assault rifle.
[I][/I]M-16 outdated?
-Siege
[I][/I]M-16 outdated?
-Siege
True. I did mean airplanes, lest any Warrant Officers fret.
The M-16 had trouble in Iraq? Who'd have thought? I mean, the troops loved them in Vietnam and the Gulf the last time.
The M-16 had trouble in Iraq? Who'd have thought? I mean, the troops loved them in Vietnam and the Gulf the last time.
i dunno. i mean, yeah, in a perfect world, all your full mages would learn military theory and whatnot, and go for their commission. on the other hand, what's more important--getting a properly-trained mage, or getting a mage, period? warrant mages, i think, would be pretty common.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| The M-16 had trouble in Iraq? Who'd have thought? I mean, the troops loved them in Vietnam and the Gulf the last time. |
From what I read, the process of replacing the M-16 with the M-4 in all the Army combat units in foreign deployment started before or during the Afghanistan war. Only the support was to stay with the M-16. The USMC also keep its M-16, claiming the 5.56mm lacks stopping power when fired from a barrel as short as the M-4's one, especially at long range such as found when fighting in a moutainous country like Afghanistan.
Interesting, considering the Army's study claimed some 95% of engagements happened at close quarters, well within the M-4's effective range.
Granted, it is an Army study...
-Siege
Granted, it is an Army study...
-Siege
...how is changing from the m-16 to the m-4 going to help with the reliability issue?
I don't think the M-4 is more reliable, but it's more compact and the main point of the article is that the standard M-16 rifle is too bulky to be carried into APCs and the like.
A secondary benefit is the full auto capability of the M-4, although the M-16's full auto capability was curtailed in Viet Nam because of a soldier's tendency to burn through all their ammo rather quickly. Instead, the US Army opted for a fixed burst setting to try and capture the best of all possible options.
As I understand it, at any rate.
The article points out that the M-4 is actually a little more fragile by comparison and prone to overheating if used repeatedly in full auto.
-Siege
A secondary benefit is the full auto capability of the M-4, although the M-16's full auto capability was curtailed in Viet Nam because of a soldier's tendency to burn through all their ammo rather quickly. Instead, the US Army opted for a fixed burst setting to try and capture the best of all possible options.
As I understand it, at any rate.
The article points out that the M-4 is actually a little more fragile by comparison and prone to overheating if used repeatedly in full auto.
-Siege
M4 is limited to 3 round bursts. The M4A1 is the full-auto version and generally limited to SOF.
I've heard some rumors of the Army switching over to the G-36 or its varients for the interim from the OICW. But to throw a shadowrun wrench in this, what is the current status of Carbines, SMGs, and PDWs in the UCAS Military. I'm fairly sure the UCAS uses a Colt Cobra for its SMG, but does it have a PDW, and what are the military numbers for the Cobra as well as an M22 carbine... 
Your thinking of the XM-8 (to be the M-8 when adopted). It is a varient of the HK G-36. Check out these links.
Global Security.org
Modern Firearms and Ammunition
Global Security.org
Modern Firearms and Ammunition
Oh, for those that wanted the military ranks I have them.
Airforce
::Enlisted::
E1 - Airman Basic
E2 - Airman
E3 - Airman 1st class
E4 - Senior Airman
E5 - Staff Sergeant
E6 - Technical Sergeant
E7 - Master Sergeant
E7 - First Sergeant
E8 - Senior Master Sergeant
E9 - Chief Master Sergeant
E9 - First Sergeant
E9 - Command Chief Sergeant
E9 - Chief Master Sergeant
::Officer::
W1,2,3,4 - na
01 - 2nd Lieutenant
02 - 1st Lieutenant
03 - captain
04 - Major
05 - Lieutenant Colonel
06 - Colonel
07 - Brigadier General
08 - Major General
09 - Lieutenant General
010 - General Chief of Staff
- General of Airforce (reserved for wartime only - 1 person)
Navy/Coast Guard
::Enlisted::
E1 - Seaman Recruit
E2 - Seaman Apprentice
E3 - Seaman
E4 - Petty Officer 3rd Class
E5 - Petty Officer 2nd Class
E6 - Petty Officer 1st Class
E7 - Chief Petty Officer
E8 - Sr Chief Petty Officer
E9 - Mst Chief Petty Officer
E9 - Fleet/Command Master Chief Petty Officer
E9 - Mst Chief Petty Officer of Navy and Coast Guard
::Officer::
W1 - Warrent Officer
W2 - Chief Warrent Officer
W3 - Chief Warrent Officer
W4 - Chief Warrent Officer
W5 - Master Warrent Officer
01 - Ensign
02 - Lieutenant Jr. Grade
03 - Lieutenant Lieutenant Commander
04 - Lieutenant Commander
05 - Commander
06 - Captain
07 - Rear Admiral (lower half)
08 - Rear Admiral (upper half)
09 - Vice Admiral
010 - Admiral
- Fleet Admiral (reserved for wartime only)
Marines
::Enlisted::
E1 - Private
E2 - Private 1st Class
E3 - Lance Corporal
E4 - Corporal
E5 - Sergeant
E6 - Staff Sergeant
E7 - Gunnery Sergeant
E8 - Master Sergeant
E8 - 1st Sergeant
E9 - Sergeant major
E9 - Master Gunnery Sergeant
E9 - Sergeant Major of the Marines
::Officer::
W1 - Warrent Officer
W2 - Chief Warrent Officer
W3 - Chief Warrent Officer
W4 - Chief Warrent Officer
W5 - Master Warrent Officer
01 - 2nd Lieutenant
02 - 1st Lieutenant
03 - Captain
04 - Major
05 - Lieutenant Colonel
06 - Colonel
07 - Brigadier General
08 - Major General
09 - Lieutenant General
010 - General Chief of Staff
- General of Marine
Army
::Enlisted::
E1 - Private
E2 - Private
E3 - Private 1st class
E4 - Corporal/Specialist
E5 - Sergeant
E6 - Staff Sergeant
E7 - Sergeant 1st class
E8 - Master Sergeant
E9 - Command Sergeant Major
E9 - Sergeant Major
E9 - Sergeant Major of the Army
::Officer::
W1 - Warrent Officer
W2 - Chief Warrent Officer
W3 - Chief Warrent Officer
W4 - Chief Warrent Officer
W5 - Master Warrent Officer
01 - 2nd Lieutenant
02 - 1st Lieutenant
03 - Captain
04 - Major
05 - Lieutenant Colonel
06 - Colonel
07 - Brigadier General
08 - Major General
09 - Lieutenant General
010 - General Chief of Staff
- General of Army
Airforce
::Enlisted::
E1 - Airman Basic
E2 - Airman
E3 - Airman 1st class
E4 - Senior Airman
E5 - Staff Sergeant
E6 - Technical Sergeant
E7 - Master Sergeant
E7 - First Sergeant
E8 - Senior Master Sergeant
E9 - Chief Master Sergeant
E9 - First Sergeant
E9 - Command Chief Sergeant
E9 - Chief Master Sergeant
::Officer::
W1,2,3,4 - na
01 - 2nd Lieutenant
02 - 1st Lieutenant
03 - captain
04 - Major
05 - Lieutenant Colonel
06 - Colonel
07 - Brigadier General
08 - Major General
09 - Lieutenant General
010 - General Chief of Staff
- General of Airforce (reserved for wartime only - 1 person)
Navy/Coast Guard
::Enlisted::
E1 - Seaman Recruit
E2 - Seaman Apprentice
E3 - Seaman
E4 - Petty Officer 3rd Class
E5 - Petty Officer 2nd Class
E6 - Petty Officer 1st Class
E7 - Chief Petty Officer
E8 - Sr Chief Petty Officer
E9 - Mst Chief Petty Officer
E9 - Fleet/Command Master Chief Petty Officer
E9 - Mst Chief Petty Officer of Navy and Coast Guard
::Officer::
W1 - Warrent Officer
W2 - Chief Warrent Officer
W3 - Chief Warrent Officer
W4 - Chief Warrent Officer
W5 - Master Warrent Officer
01 - Ensign
02 - Lieutenant Jr. Grade
03 - Lieutenant Lieutenant Commander
04 - Lieutenant Commander
05 - Commander
06 - Captain
07 - Rear Admiral (lower half)
08 - Rear Admiral (upper half)
09 - Vice Admiral
010 - Admiral
- Fleet Admiral (reserved for wartime only)
Marines
::Enlisted::
E1 - Private
E2 - Private 1st Class
E3 - Lance Corporal
E4 - Corporal
E5 - Sergeant
E6 - Staff Sergeant
E7 - Gunnery Sergeant
E8 - Master Sergeant
E8 - 1st Sergeant
E9 - Sergeant major
E9 - Master Gunnery Sergeant
E9 - Sergeant Major of the Marines
::Officer::
W1 - Warrent Officer
W2 - Chief Warrent Officer
W3 - Chief Warrent Officer
W4 - Chief Warrent Officer
W5 - Master Warrent Officer
01 - 2nd Lieutenant
02 - 1st Lieutenant
03 - Captain
04 - Major
05 - Lieutenant Colonel
06 - Colonel
07 - Brigadier General
08 - Major General
09 - Lieutenant General
010 - General Chief of Staff
- General of Marine
Army
::Enlisted::
E1 - Private
E2 - Private
E3 - Private 1st class
E4 - Corporal/Specialist
E5 - Sergeant
E6 - Staff Sergeant
E7 - Sergeant 1st class
E8 - Master Sergeant
E9 - Command Sergeant Major
E9 - Sergeant Major
E9 - Sergeant Major of the Army
::Officer::
W1 - Warrent Officer
W2 - Chief Warrent Officer
W3 - Chief Warrent Officer
W4 - Chief Warrent Officer
W5 - Master Warrent Officer
01 - 2nd Lieutenant
02 - 1st Lieutenant
03 - Captain
04 - Major
05 - Lieutenant Colonel
06 - Colonel
07 - Brigadier General
08 - Major General
09 - Lieutenant General
010 - General Chief of Staff
- General of Army
Outstanding. Now I'm looking for more of an alternative services ranks. NAN, Aztlan, Japan, CFS, Tir, CAS, etc. if applicable, but thanks Hero. Thats a big help.
No problem, I figure most nations would follow this system to some degree. Tried to find the pay for the grades but no luck, I'll try another time.
The Tir nations would probably translate it into Spretheal.
You'd see some minor changes in names, but the system would probably be the same throughout the West. Actually, similar is the word I'm looking for.
And, remember, Aztlan's military is totally different.
You'd see some minor changes in names, but the system would probably be the same throughout the West. Actually, similar is the word I'm looking for.
And, remember, Aztlan's military is totally different.
You mean here and here?
The base pay (lowest pay you can have at a grade) as of 2003 is:
E-1 1064.70
E-2 1290.00
E-3 1356.90
E-4 1502.70
E-5 1625.40
E-6 1770.60
E-7 2068.50
E-8 2975.40
E-9 3564.30
W-1 2133.90
W-2 2416.50
W-3 2747.10
W-4 3008.10
W-5 5169.30
O-1 2183.70
O-2 2515.20
O-3 2911.20
O-4 3311.10
O-5 3837.60
O-6 4603.20
O-7 6210.90
O-8 7474.50
O-9 10563.60
O-10 12077.70
Most of the people at the above grades make more than that (time in determines a lot about your pay), and there are all sorts of allowances that add to it. See this PDF document for more details.
The base pay (lowest pay you can have at a grade) as of 2003 is:
E-1 1064.70
E-2 1290.00
E-3 1356.90
E-4 1502.70
E-5 1625.40
E-6 1770.60
E-7 2068.50
E-8 2975.40
E-9 3564.30
W-1 2133.90
W-2 2416.50
W-3 2747.10
W-4 3008.10
W-5 5169.30
O-1 2183.70
O-2 2515.20
O-3 2911.20
O-4 3311.10
O-5 3837.60
O-6 4603.20
O-7 6210.90
O-8 7474.50
O-9 10563.60
O-10 12077.70
Most of the people at the above grades make more than that (time in determines a lot about your pay), and there are all sorts of allowances that add to it. See this PDF document for more details.
German system (MET/2000, SaederKrupp) is nice:
Enlisted
Soldat - Soldier (No rank tabs )[1]
Gefreiter - Private (Single bar)
Obergefreiter - "Head/Top Private" Private First class (Two bars)
Hauptgefreiter - "Primate / Master Private" (Three bars)
Stabsgefreiter - "Staff private" (Four bars)
NCO (distinct from the above, including own messhall)
Gefreier UA MBL - A private, Corporal Candidate with finished corporals training (Private Tabs + small silver band)[1a]
Unteroffizier - Corporal (A lying U)
Stabs-Unteroffizier - Lance Corporal (A closed lying U)
-------------
Feldwebel - Sergeant ( A <)
Oberfeldwebel - "First/Head/Top" the equivalent to a Staff Sergeant (Two <<)
Hauptfeldwebel - Master Sergeant (<><) a regular position
"Spiess" - A master sergeant with special duties[2]
Stabsfeldwebel - "Staff Sergeant" actually a Batallion / Baracks Sgt Major
Oberstabsfeldwebel
Officers (again, own messhall)
Faehnrich - Cadet, Ranktabs of Unteroffizier + small gold band[3]
Oberfaehnrich - As Stabs-Unteroffizier + small gold band
Fahnenjunker - As Oberfeldwebel + small gold band
---------------------
Leutnant - Leftenant (Warning, has 2-5 years troop experience)[4]
Oberleutnant - First leftenant (Two silver stars)
----------------------
Hauptmann - First man, Captain (Three silver stars)
---------------------
Major - Major (single silver star w oak leaf)
---------------------
Oberstleutnant - Colonel Leftenant, two stars w oak leaf)
Oberst - Colonel (three stars with oak leaf)
---------------------
Brigadegeneral - Brigadier General (gold stars w leaf)
Generalmajor - Major General
Generalleutnant - Leutenant general
General
--------- designates a rang group. Members of the same group don't salute
[1] A soldier is normaly called by his function (Light Infantry - Jäger "Ranger", Mech Inf - Panzergrenadier "Armored Grenadier", Artillery - Kanonier "Artilleryman" etc) Soldiers ranks (belowe Corporal / UA) have no meaning in the german army except better pay
[1a] Corporals Candidates (Unteroffiziersanwärter) go through two courses of two weeks each. Only way to get a Corporal. Actually everybode corporal and above went through that course. They dine in the NCO messhall. A Private UA MBL is a full corporal without a corporals pay&position.
[2] There is one per company. He's head of all NCO's. Term comes from the fact that in the days of old he carried an officers saber as a rank tab. That has been reduced to a thick old rope
[3] They outrank their equivalent in NCO's by one grade (Fähnrich ranks as Stabs-Unteroffizier etc). Also known as "Heiskisten" (hot box) or Astbestsoldaten (they are hot for an officers position) Every german officer was one. They serve in the matching functions (Squad leader, Platoon sergeant)
[4] Every german officer is the equivalent to a US "mustang" (OCS graduate)
That's the army. For the "Uncle Donalds" (navy) I have to ask a collegue. The Lustwaffe (Fun force - The flyboys) use the above, even so they are not soldiers.
Michael
Enlisted
Soldat - Soldier (No rank tabs )[1]
Gefreiter - Private (Single bar)
Obergefreiter - "Head/Top Private" Private First class (Two bars)
Hauptgefreiter - "Primate / Master Private" (Three bars)
Stabsgefreiter - "Staff private" (Four bars)
NCO (distinct from the above, including own messhall)
Gefreier UA MBL - A private, Corporal Candidate with finished corporals training (Private Tabs + small silver band)[1a]
Unteroffizier - Corporal (A lying U)
Stabs-Unteroffizier - Lance Corporal (A closed lying U)
-------------
Feldwebel - Sergeant ( A <)
Oberfeldwebel - "First/Head/Top" the equivalent to a Staff Sergeant (Two <<)
Hauptfeldwebel - Master Sergeant (<><) a regular position
"Spiess" - A master sergeant with special duties[2]
Stabsfeldwebel - "Staff Sergeant" actually a Batallion / Baracks Sgt Major
Oberstabsfeldwebel
Officers (again, own messhall)
Faehnrich - Cadet, Ranktabs of Unteroffizier + small gold band[3]
Oberfaehnrich - As Stabs-Unteroffizier + small gold band
Fahnenjunker - As Oberfeldwebel + small gold band
---------------------
Leutnant - Leftenant (Warning, has 2-5 years troop experience)[4]
Oberleutnant - First leftenant (Two silver stars)
----------------------
Hauptmann - First man, Captain (Three silver stars)
---------------------
Major - Major (single silver star w oak leaf)
---------------------
Oberstleutnant - Colonel Leftenant, two stars w oak leaf)
Oberst - Colonel (three stars with oak leaf)
---------------------
Brigadegeneral - Brigadier General (gold stars w leaf)
Generalmajor - Major General
Generalleutnant - Leutenant general
General
--------- designates a rang group. Members of the same group don't salute
[1] A soldier is normaly called by his function (Light Infantry - Jäger "Ranger", Mech Inf - Panzergrenadier "Armored Grenadier", Artillery - Kanonier "Artilleryman" etc) Soldiers ranks (belowe Corporal / UA) have no meaning in the german army except better pay
[1a] Corporals Candidates (Unteroffiziersanwärter) go through two courses of two weeks each. Only way to get a Corporal. Actually everybode corporal and above went through that course. They dine in the NCO messhall. A Private UA MBL is a full corporal without a corporals pay&position.
[2] There is one per company. He's head of all NCO's. Term comes from the fact that in the days of old he carried an officers saber as a rank tab. That has been reduced to a thick old rope
[3] They outrank their equivalent in NCO's by one grade (Fähnrich ranks as Stabs-Unteroffizier etc). Also known as "Heiskisten" (hot box) or Astbestsoldaten (they are hot for an officers position) Every german officer was one. They serve in the matching functions (Squad leader, Platoon sergeant)
[4] Every german officer is the equivalent to a US "mustang" (OCS graduate)
That's the army. For the "Uncle Donalds" (navy) I have to ask a collegue. The Lustwaffe (Fun force - The flyboys) use the above, even so they are not soldiers.
Michael
Thats not exactly the best help, but it was something I was wondering. Now I can use that in my PrPs or something. That is preatty useful actually, so thank you! Can I inquire where you received this information?
| QUOTE (capt20) |
| Thats not exactly the best help, but it was something I was wondering. Now I can use that in my PrPs or something. That is preatty useful actually, so thank you! Can I inquire where you received this information? |
Well, back in the good ole times (1987/88) I followed my countrys call (I was drafted) and valiantly served the great german nation on the field of honor (spend 15 month as an armed typist). During that time it was my honor (I was ordered) to memorize the ranks of my capable and heroic leader.
Michael
At about 0325 Pacific time, I have heard unconfirmed reports by CNN that Saddam Hussian Al-tikriti was captured. It was confired by SkyNews and TOny Blair, but... ehh, if we did capture the guy, Outstanding. Put him on trail. Okay, just had to post that.
Wow, that was completely unnecessary.
Onto something that is related to SR by even a mere scintilla, I was wondering what the structure of the UCAS military would look like at the top, given the fact that virtually all of the combat that the UCAS military has officially seen has been since about 2055, and anything before that probably goes back to the GGD wars (which means all experience in the upper ranks is pretty much gone). How flabby and bureaucratic and inneffective would you espect the military to be, and how do you think it would effect the integration of magic, cybertech, and so forth (decks, for instance).
I mean, if the 3 and 4 stars had never seen combat, wouldn't they be less inclined to advocate or expect wholesale installation of cyberware in soldiers?
Onto something that is related to SR by even a mere scintilla, I was wondering what the structure of the UCAS military would look like at the top, given the fact that virtually all of the combat that the UCAS military has officially seen has been since about 2055, and anything before that probably goes back to the GGD wars (which means all experience in the upper ranks is pretty much gone). How flabby and bureaucratic and inneffective would you espect the military to be, and how do you think it would effect the integration of magic, cybertech, and so forth (decks, for instance).
I mean, if the 3 and 4 stars had never seen combat, wouldn't they be less inclined to advocate or expect wholesale installation of cyberware in soldiers?
Good Point. Because theres not big combat doesn't mean that the UCAS has inexperienced troops though. There are bound to be small incursions, as well as special Ops. Even so, experence can still be garnered without combat.
Don't forget that the UCAS has a much more touchy border situation than the USA. The UCAS is probably more defensive minded than expeditionary, so the borders are likely to be patrolled by regular army than a federal agency. There is some potential combat there.
Another point. How much cross training does the UCAS conduct with Corps like Ares? Ares can get lot's of experience with the Desert Wars.
Another point. How much cross training does the UCAS conduct with Corps like Ares? Ares can get lot's of experience with the Desert Wars.
Well, I'd like to ephasize official. How often do you hear about the Marines on the Mexican border? How many times have they been acknowledged to have actually engaged anyone?
I have serious reservations about the Desert Wars. Deploying forces under (or rather, in the shadow and off to the side of) the UN or NATO flag is one thing. Under the flag of a corp is a whole different issue.
I have serious reservations about the Desert Wars. Deploying forces under (or rather, in the shadow and off to the side of) the UN or NATO flag is one thing. Under the flag of a corp is a whole different issue.
IIRC, Target: Wastelands mentioned that government forces were free to, and did, participate in the Desert Wars as well. And on joining Ares, well just call in joint training/manouvers.
Well, how likely is all out war any way? The military minds of SR may think more like corporate execs. War is a function of cost and return on investment. If this is the case you will see totally fragged up doctrine and policy ala McNamara and VietNam.
If this is the case they may see the Desert wars as perfect training because it allows them to play out scenarios in a controlled environment with no pesky civillian insurgents around.
Also, don't totally knock it. The US Army has been training infantry out in the desert (Army's National Training Center at Ft. Irwin in California) for some time. It seems to be a pretty effective training program. They, at least, provide civillians.
If this is the case they may see the Desert wars as perfect training because it allows them to play out scenarios in a controlled environment with no pesky civillian insurgents around.
Also, don't totally knock it. The US Army has been training infantry out in the desert (Army's National Training Center at Ft. Irwin in California) for some time. It seems to be a pretty effective training program. They, at least, provide civillians.
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