Greets,

Basically, I've run into an issue with technomancers that I simply can't get over, personally. Without starting a huge holy war, let us assume that, over the course of, say, a 300 karma career, TMs and hackers are roughly equivalent, when you average how good they are in the matrix at various points along a 300 karma/300k nuyen timeline. Yes, those numbers are randomly plucked out of the ether, but please bear with me.

My problem isn't with TM powerlevels in the matrix. My problem is a more general one: every other character type out there in 4th edition has general use outside of their speciality. Hackers can make credible street samurai or faces. Adepts can be good hackers/riggers. Mages, in addition to laying waste to Body 15 trolls with a mere thought, get to have a great deal of speed and general utility via spells. Etc.

Technomancers, though, are good at one thing: the matrix. They are required to be physically frail and have almost no impact in the real world in order to gain equivalence with a hacker. To me, that just doesn't seem fair. I'm going to be running a large game soon, and I want TMs to actually be played by PCs rather than be relegated to NPCs who occasionally show up. Yes, I realize they get to have drones, but that doesn't really address the problem. Hackers get them, too, after all.

In short, I'm looking for workable solutions to make TMs a little less one-dimensional. So far, my favorite solution (because I typically favor grabbing the bigger hammer) is to simply divorce resonance from essence -- ie, TMs can load up on cyberware.

Thoughts?

You do realize that nowadays, the Matrix is everywhere? Augmented reality-upgrade now!

That seems like a reasonable soloution to me. It also solves the "Are Technomancers another form of Awakened" with the answer "No, they are not".

Why wouldn't a technomancer, whose mental attributes (charisma, intuition, logic and willpower) are all encouraged to be as high as possible, make a decent face?

Because they don't have any BP left for social skills.

And they can't Skillwire those skills, because that would cost them their precious bodily fluits.

Do you know what Flouridation of water is, Mandrake?

While your point is valid, TMs don't have a lot of room to mix it up, I just wanted to make sure that you realize that a TM drone is not the same as a hacker drone. The hacker drone can be spoofed, the TM drone cannot. The hacker has to load a drone up with a super expensive system to get high ratings running on it, the TM can go with the "off the shelf" model.

Also a TM, starting, should be an order of magnetude more potent in the matrix.

hackers get drones that make riggers cry. not even the adept rigger can compete with the technomantic rigger, and that's saying a lot.

seriously, you might think that riggers get drones too so it doesn't count for anything, but remember that the rigger's drones aren't throwing 15 dice on dodge tests or 26 dice on their gunnery tests, most likely =P (assuming the TM is doing the rigging directly, that is... if it's a sprite, then it would be a bit more reasonable =P )

Now see, a real hacker would shoot the technomancer in the head and say "Code this, Neo."

Or else have a trio of agents fire a black hammer across his precious frontal lobes while saying "I may not be uber, but I have learned artful."

Hell, I'd even settle for turning on the jammer you have installed in your cyberarm and beating the technomancer to death.

Just to be clear a technomancer does not automatically get hacking 6 and resonance 6. Artistic licence of the writers aside.

I would rate a TM like that as someone who has studied a whole lot. Though granted they probably have a very strong tendency to spend a lot of time in the matrix honing their skills.

But you are right, in the crazy wireless world of SR4 the hacker who is a shut in is really not around anymore. Or rather they would be 200-300BP chars. And fastjack and dodger are getting old.

Actually I suppose you could get someone studying their skills up to 7's and making their own level 7 stuff. And they wouldn't for all their effort be as good as a TM.

Still though they do have one edge going for them that they never lose. They can always run cold, or even flick to AR if they start taking a beating from some black ice(making the target icon have to switch out their black attack program.) The TM never can, and someday that will get them.

I hadn't thought about it, but onlne murder may become more common. It isn't very effective against deckers as unless they're in the middle of a run they're probably running cool or AR. But anytime a TM is online, which is generally all the time, someone could just come up and blow their brains out.

Back on subject how do people think a pure sprite TM would work. They could spend BP only on the TM quality, a high resonance, and fives in compile and register. That's only 110 BP. They also might not need so much in their stats. Like logic. With the rest of their BP they get other usefull skills and stuff for the real world.

Can someone post side-by-side optimized Technomancer vs. Hacker characters that we can compare? Using straight by-the-book 400bp starting characters (i.e. max 200bp in attributes, etc.).

you'll have to narrow that down. do you want a focus on just hacking, or do you want other things also?

in any event, i'm not particularly convinced that hackers are really obsolete. the simple fact that the hacker can never be as overpowering in one thing as a technomancer tends to ignore the fact that a technomancer has a really hard time being good at multiple different tasks at the same time... the more stuff you have to thread at once, the harder it gets for a TM to do anything at all.

so sure, TMs can be really good, but that tends to have it's own limitations, within the matrix as well as outside of it.

It's evolution, baby.

New and improved makes the old ways die off. If Hackers can't hack it anymore then it's time to shuffle off to Buffalo. That's just the way it is.

At least the developers are keeping the evolution of the game world "real". If things change then everyone has to struggle to keep up and if that mean some people fall to the wayside and your hacker can no longer be the best, well boo-hoo for him. Suck it up and evolve or retire.

I'm currently playing a Technomancer. With what you guys are saying, I did something WRONG because I'm being overshadowed by a rigger in everything.

Here's my build:

http://67.189.94.71/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Shadowrun/Skitzer

From a player point of view though all the old "combat hackers" are probably quite happy with the rules. TMs may be better at hacking, but combat hackers are used to not being quite the best. But now they have a much much easier time of things.

Also it's now easier to bridge out into things other than combat. A hacker can be pretty much anything else as well now. Even a mage.

A player who liked playing the old shut in could now just play a TM, which has largely taken that role.

All that's missing in the starting character who puts all his starting resources into technological means of hacking, in order to be the best starting hacker.

Also if those players don't mind a little magic there is still the hacker adept. This lets you put another 70BP into hacking. And really makes them quite formidable. In some ways they still can't match a TM it must be admitted, but they're at least contenders.

I'm starting to think a combat hacker would be more fun for me. All I've gotten to do so far is badly forge a pair of tickets to get into a concert.

1) complex forms cannot be higher rating than your resonance.

2) from a min/max perspective, no CF should ever be taken at a rating lower than your response

3) dump decompiling. also dump forgery... you have no skills to use it with (note: forgery is used for forging art and signatures etc, not for forging ID)

4) mage sight goggles? you have *drones* for that sort of thing.

I see..

Thanks for the responses. The conversation, thus far, has ranged about, as I thought it would. Still, I haven't seen a lot of examples of ways to make TMs a little less specialized.

I'm not trying to debate specialization versus generalization. I'm just trying to make TMs a little more diverse than 'that guy who can do anything in the trix but is useless in a firefight'.

How about hackers coding their own programs at ratings way above 6. Yeah, it'll take some time, but a hacker can have rating 9 or higher programs alot easier than a techno can have CF's that high (not including threading). If you had a hacker with computer 6 specialization in programing and a logic of 6(, to code a rating 12 program you would roll 16 dice on an extended test (24, 1 month). If all you did was buy successes then it would take you 6 months. The way we play it's usually one or two runs a month game time. So 12 games and the hackers got a rating 12 program. Hacker adepts can really tip the scale with a bunch of extra dice on the roll making that happen alot quicker too.

Ok one the high programs, the trick there is that no costs are listed for hardware over rating 6 and you need a cost to make the hardware, and you need the hardware to make the soft.

In short there aren't rules for making higher level stuff for PCs. This is backed up in published missions so far as even on core company servers the ratings never clear 6 (except for firewall which isn't limited by hardware).

But I guess you could just make up a value and have rating 12 hackers and systems in your games. That would bring fastjack types back really fast. Still the rulebook seems to lean toward rating 7 being the highest of military stuff, or maybe zurich orbital.

Also I advise applying the "you only get as many tries as you have skill" rule to rolls to make stuff, but RAW you wouldn't have too.

@bait. A TMs restriction is not just the cyberware thing. Generally their BP demands make their physical stats very low and their skills for anything not matrix related tend to hover around 1, if they have them at all. They are that focues.

@ghostfire. I think the option of the pure sprite TM would be viable. Especially if you don't insist at starting at rating 6 (though I would advise doing so). This would give you a goodly number of other skills and respectable stats.

Alternatively a TM can be pretty mecha. For example they may not be able to shoot a rifle very well. But if you put a sniper rifle on a light mechanized mount they'll be a fine sniper. Maybe a little eye drone or something they can mount on their head. It gets a little tricky to juggle things right for that.

@Jaid How are you getting 26 die on a gunnery test?

The only limit for programs due to hardware is response and that only limits the number of programs you can run. System is software and it's the only thing that limits program max rating.

26 dice on a gunnery test:

1) 5 resonance, 5 command CF. thread up to 10. rating 4 registered sprite boosts that to 14.
2) gunnery 6 (specialisation +2... i recommend ballistics)
3) codeslinger (control device) another +2
4) hotsim (another +2)
5) smartlink (another +2)
6) machine sprite diagnostics power on the gun (use a rating 6 compiled but not registered sprite, average of +4)

that, right there, is in fact 32 dice (28 if your GM decides to make your absolute CF cap at double resonance, not just increases from threading). you can, of course, get more by:

1) using a higher rating sprite to boost your CF.
2) getting your resonance and command CF higher
3) using a higher rating machine sprite to apply the diagnostics power
4) buying the aptitude quality in gunnery.

all of those further boosts, of course, are quite excessive... to put it bluntly, for a TM to get 26 dice on gunnery tests is *easy*. the main thing, of course, is getting the command CF to absurd levels. the higher it goes, the higher your starting dicepool is for dodge (effective attributes equal to your command CF means that your reaction starts off at 14 with this build, +2 for hotsim... like i said, it's not hard).

like i said, riggers may get drones, but technomancers make those rigged drones look like some sort of joke.

the tradeoff being, of course, the cost for the technomancer is much greater than the cost for the rigger, even the adept rigger (which some/many people seem to be quite opposed to, at least in the sense of an adept who has adept powers that work through the matrix)

The machine sprite power 'Diagnostics' means any character can get several bonus dice for HOURS on everything a subscribed device does. Snipers and their smartgun links, riggers and their drones/vehicles, heck even an autodoc ALL can get hours of bonuses for one compiled machine sprite's service. Even with making perception tests through the drone or smartgun. Its SICK.

That one power, properly employed, will insure a TM never has dead-air during a mission.

I guess that comes down to how you feel the Sprite conveys that information to the person using/repairing the device. I always pictured the sprite actually working with the user of the device and, thus, they'd know they were getting said help. I guess, in a way, my view on the diagnostics power is nothing more than a teamwork test with a Sprite.

Regardless, it is quite wonderful.

I do wish they'd written the diagnostic thing a bit clearer in the whole conveying the info business. I mean what do they tell a general person that suddenly gives a massive test? Works with TMs with a little hand waving.

The command thing is interesting. Though it must be noted that it DOESN'T work if the TM is actually rigging the thing (says so explicitly in command). It has to be some kind of not-quite-rigging thing, but not a command to the pilot.

Alright this is just retarded. I can't give you a RAW reason why you couldn't just sit in the drones node and control the drone via the command program. We might as well just call this "super rigging" because unless you have a crap command program even for a regular rigger this is vastly superior to rigging in every way I can think of, more dice,and no damage from the drone getting hit, can flick to AR (such as if you're worried about a crash, and you aren't a TM), and, seemingly from RAW, you could allow the loaded pilot program to handle some things (piloting) while you do the shooting. I suppose you could say in this not-quite-jumped-in mode that you don't get the -1 threshold.

So even without sniping skills (well maybe one point and a spec) TMs are the best snipers out there if they mechanize the weapon.

Lord help us all if they put some way to make exoskeletons in Arsenal.

@odinson Sorry but check p213. System is limited by response. So per current RAW a PC can only get rating 6 progs/hardware except for firewall. Due to their "level 7 is the super insane stuff" philosophy I don't see them opening this up in unwired.

Do you even have to sit in the drone's node? I'd assume you can just sit in your own node and command from there.

RAW p. 237. Diagnostics only works on an electronic device. A gun is a mechanical device.

@grendel They're saying (and it's hard to argue with) that a gun on a drone is a mechanical device. So if a TM wanted to be a sniper what they should have is a tripod that's mechanized with some servos and the like plus a comlink. So they set it up and sit down next to it while running it via the matrix.

@Frank Are you even reading the stuff that is being laid down in regards to technomancers? I'm not even talking about the drone stuff. Sure a hacker adept and a TM may roll similar die on some tests. But however many die you roll on exploit stealth 6 and stealth 12 are very different beasts. And stealth is a good 90% of hacking, especially in a hard system. Similarly even if you roll the same dice a rating 12 black hammer and a rating 6 are very very different.

And of course all the sprite stuff that a hacker can simply not replicate with agents.

Let me re-iterate the stealth thing.

When hacking you may have to roll for a lot of things. Maybe you're browsing, tapping a comcall, breaking encryption left and right. But most of that you can re-roll on or the test isn't that bad. Either way they're rolling roughly the same die.

But when you're busting into the system, it's a matter of whether that system can roll enough to clear the threshold of your stealth. Which means with rating 6 systems even a probing Hacker has a ~20% chance of getting caught and buried in IC. If they're hacking on the fly something like the Ares system from missions (all 6's except firewall at 10) they'd absolutley have to get those 10 hits on the first roll, or they're almost certainly detected, and even if they manage on the first shot they still have the ~20% chance of detection. A TM can leasurely make two rolls and still have a 90% plus chance of getting through undetected.

I'd have to agree with what Sunnyside just said, but also point out that one of the issues here is whether the rules have rendered an archetype obsolete, and for many of us, a magical (adept) hacker doesn't fit that archetype. A min-maxed non-adept would be a more interesting comparison for the purposes of several of us, and it would obviously fare worse than the adept. I don't think I'm really talking about the usual trade-off between character and min-maxing. This is about an entire category of character types being the trade-off.

Ooh, I thought of another useful role for the technomancer. With diagnostics in a medkit and a decent first aid specialization, they could make a damn impressive medic.

Penultimate = next to last, not extra-ultimate.

sorry, pet peeve.

Alright the fundamental issue we're running into with diagnostics is exactly how tangential to the actual performance of the act can the electronic device in question be before they don't get a bonus.

A medkit provides instruction, probably some readings, but the basic models can't actually do any of the surgery. (right?)

A smartlink provides a camera, some targeting info, and a trigger. But not the arm motion, etc.

Continuing the argument what if a TM got some cyber shoes. Maybe they've got a camera, a node, GPS, accelerometer, and the ability to dynamically control their stiffness, ankle support, color, and tread formation. Plus flashing lights. It's reasonable something like that exists already in SR4.

Does that give the TM superdodge, Superrun and supergymastics?

How about if they wanted to drive an unadapted car and so they taped a minidrone to the brake or the turn signal. +6 dice? The minidrone can affect what they're taped to and probably has a camera and accelerometer, GPS too.

What if they instead taped a microdrone to their arm before getting into a fistfight with a troll? It could track the trolls motions with it's camera and overlay useful information on punching techniques and where to punch.

The point is you have to draw a line somewhere. (If you thought all these examples were OK report to the munchkin thread).

Personally I think it should be where the device is an add on to the act instead of being integral. I.e. if you removed the device you'd still do the same thing basically the same way. In those cases you don't get the diagnostic bonus. That would put smartlinks out.