Full Version: The Trouble with Technomancers
| QUOTE (Ghostfire) | ||
Let me rephrase, since you are correct: penultimate word (nearly the last word). My point is that they are probably the second best example of extreme specialization in the game -- the most extreme example would be some of the narrowly specialized magic builds. |
Ah, that works.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| A medkit provides instruction, probably some readings, but the basic models can't actually do any of the surgery. (right?) |
IIRC they can run without any supervision, in which case they just roll Rating dice. If a person is actively using them then they roll Attribute + Skill + Rating.
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| Sidenote I: I'm not necessarily in favour of what is presented above, but unless you can provide hard fact that a TM cannot use "command" or "diagnostics" in terms of RAW in the described manner, then your opinion is just that: an opinion. |
RAW, p. 239 second column.
"Fire a Weapon System (Complex)
A rigger may fire an armed weapon an any single drone (see Gunnery and Sensor Targeting, p. 162.) If the rigger is directly controlling the drone, he cannot perform this action with other drones."
RAW, p. 162.
"The Gunnery skill is used for vehicle mounted weapons."
"Drones attack using their Pilot + Targeting autosoft rating (see p. 239)."
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Personally I think it should be where the device is an add on to the act instead of being integral. I.e. if you removed the device you'd still do the same thing basically the same way. In those cases you don't get the diagnostic bonus. That would put smartlinks out. |
No it wouldn't since mentally fireing a gun cannot can only be done with
a) a smartlink
b) a cyberimplant gun.
You cannot remove either and still fire a gun mentally. So by your own definition said device is integral to the act.
| QUOTE (grendel) |
| RAW, p. 239 second column. "Fire a Weapon System (Complex) A rigger may fire an armed weapon an any single drone (see Gunnery and Sensor Targeting, p. 162.) If the rigger is directly controlling the drone, he cannot perform this action with other drones." |
And where does it prohibit the use of command in said manner?
| QUOTE |
| RAW, p. 162. "The Gunnery skill is used for vehicle mounted weapons." "Drones attack using their Pilot + Targeting autosoft rating (see p. 239)." |
The question wasn't what a drone that is fireing on its own would use ...
You present two rule sections that deal with
a) a rigger that has "assumed body" of a drone
b) a drone that acts upon programming or external command
Unfortunaltly the scenario given in the example with the gunner doesn't quite fit either point.
One could possibly argue that creating such a scenario is on the verge of what is discussed in the already mentioned "munchkin"-thread, but it's still nothing that can be outright classified "against the rules".
Alright I guess I need to type faster as about 4 post dropped while typing mine.
Anyway if you want to houserule TMs out of their specialist niche you just need to lower their costs while simultaniously cutting out the most powerful of their stuff (otherwise they're simply better for fewer BP).
For example:
-no CF can go higher than resonance, period. This makes threading and assist for filling in the gaps.
-TMs get logic x10 free points for CFs at the start. Similar to how knowlege skill points work.
-diagnostics simply provides a bonus equal to sprites rating/2 rounding up. (instead of now where you can just have the sprite re-roll until you get something ridiculous).
-make a new TM special skill group that contains a TM versions of data search, computer, "threading", and the resonance skills. Meaning they would no longer take a weirded version of the electronic skill group, or the resonance group, they would take this instead.
-give them +2 die whenever an electronic component adds to a task, but diagnostics doesn't apply (smartlinks, medkits etc etc.)
-TMs can use cyberware bioware without penalty.
This would shave about 100BP off of the TM and gives them a shot in the real world, while still retaining some key differences from their hacker equivalents.
It's just now that it's more like mages and shamen than apples and oranges.
*EDIT: And again it happened. Anyway a smartlink can fire the gun, but note I said basically the same. If you're holding the gun and aiming it the difference between a little finger motion and a mental command is not that great.
Anyway if you want to houserule TMs out of their specialist niche you just need to lower their costs while simultaniously cutting out the most powerful of their stuff (otherwise they're simply better for fewer BP).
For example:
-no CF can go higher than resonance, period. This makes threading and assist for filling in the gaps.
-TMs get logic x10 free points for CFs at the start. Similar to how knowlege skill points work.
-diagnostics simply provides a bonus equal to sprites rating/2 rounding up. (instead of now where you can just have the sprite re-roll until you get something ridiculous).
-make a new TM special skill group that contains a TM versions of data search, computer, "threading", and the resonance skills. Meaning they would no longer take a weirded version of the electronic skill group, or the resonance group, they would take this instead.
-give them +2 die whenever an electronic component adds to a task, but diagnostics doesn't apply (smartlinks, medkits etc etc.)
-TMs can use cyberware bioware without penalty.
This would shave about 100BP off of the TM and gives them a shot in the real world, while still retaining some key differences from their hacker equivalents.
It's just now that it's more like mages and shamen than apples and oranges.
*EDIT: And again it happened. Anyway a smartlink can fire the gun, but note I said basically the same. If you're holding the gun and aiming it the difference between a little finger motion and a mental command is not that great.
just to clarify what has been mentioned regarding my earlier example, the TM in the example above is not giving orders, neither is he rigging the drone.
he is using the matrix action "control device" which replaces the attribute with the rating of the command program.
this, of course, results in some crazy dice pools. for example:
- a TM using control device to perform first aid using an autodoc drone and an upgraded medkit (command CF + skill + specialisation + optional diagnostics power + medkit rating)
- a TM using control device to operate a gun mounted on a smart firing platform. see the original gunnery rolls earlier (though it would arguably use a different skill than gunnery, unless it was a drone-mounted smart firing platform)
and so forth. basically any time the TM does something via telepresence, or even just through a drone intermediary while present, high dicepools are a probable result. *technically* this could even work by using a drone to perform social skills, though i for one would not allow it...
he is using the matrix action "control device" which replaces the attribute with the rating of the command program.
this, of course, results in some crazy dice pools. for example:
- a TM using control device to perform first aid using an autodoc drone and an upgraded medkit (command CF + skill + specialisation + optional diagnostics power + medkit rating)
- a TM using control device to operate a gun mounted on a smart firing platform. see the original gunnery rolls earlier (though it would arguably use a different skill than gunnery, unless it was a drone-mounted smart firing platform)
and so forth. basically any time the TM does something via telepresence, or even just through a drone intermediary while present, high dicepools are a probable result. *technically* this could even work by using a drone to perform social skills, though i for one would not allow it...
...the issue I have seen all along is that unless they sacrifice Resonance, Technomancers will always have only on IP in the meat world. Mages and adepts have compensations built into their respective archetypes (Spells & Powers), Technos have nothing.
The only fix I see is to allow some form or amount of augmentation without penalty.
As I recall Otaku were not penalised for having Cyber any more that a mundane was (actually some cyber was critical to their ability to function in the Matrix). If Technomancers are supposed to be the outgrowth of the Otaku, then maybe the resonance impact from Cyber should be eliminated.
...my 2 rubles worth.
The only fix I see is to allow some form or amount of augmentation without penalty.
As I recall Otaku were not penalised for having Cyber any more that a mundane was (actually some cyber was critical to their ability to function in the Matrix). If Technomancers are supposed to be the outgrowth of the Otaku, then maybe the resonance impact from Cyber should be eliminated.
...my 2 rubles worth.
That makes sense to me, especially since the authors keep insisting that technomancers are not Awakened...
Well I think a lot of it comes down to character concept and the character build and what your GM allows/likes.
For example, Technomancers are new to the shadowrun universe. In fact they have only been around for 6 years at most.
So, how did your 20 or 30 something year old character become a Technomancer? Was he in the matrix during the crash? If so, then he needs to have a datajack when you create him/her. So right away your max resonance is down to 5. If he wasn't in the matrix, or involved with computers before hand then what was he/she doing before becoming a techno? Did they have any other cyberware implanted earlier? were they already shadowrunner before this? A face? or were they a student in highschool? University? What were they studying, etc...
Most of the Techno builds that I see online make it seem that these characters were born and raised and focused on only ever being Technomancers. All buildpoints go straight into maxing out technomancer skils, etc... Yet technos are new to the universe. What were all these people doing before this? Because unless you are playing a six year old shadowrunner then a lot of BP's should been spent on what the characters "pre-technomancer" life was.
GM's making sure the players are playing a real character rather then an archtype goes a long way to leveling out the technomancer character against hackers.
In fact I almost wish Shadowrun had a character creation system similar to Travellers system, where you slowly build your character from his earliest life all the way up to when the game begins. That way if your character was never in the military then how did they learn Gunnery in the first place? it's not like you can just go out and practice that skill on the seattle streets.
So I think that a well rounded charcter, with skills & and cyber appropriate to their background goes a long way to evening out the archtypes and preventing unrealistic min/maxing.
For example, Technomancers are new to the shadowrun universe. In fact they have only been around for 6 years at most.
So, how did your 20 or 30 something year old character become a Technomancer? Was he in the matrix during the crash? If so, then he needs to have a datajack when you create him/her. So right away your max resonance is down to 5. If he wasn't in the matrix, or involved with computers before hand then what was he/she doing before becoming a techno? Did they have any other cyberware implanted earlier? were they already shadowrunner before this? A face? or were they a student in highschool? University? What were they studying, etc...
Most of the Techno builds that I see online make it seem that these characters were born and raised and focused on only ever being Technomancers. All buildpoints go straight into maxing out technomancer skils, etc... Yet technos are new to the universe. What were all these people doing before this? Because unless you are playing a six year old shadowrunner then a lot of BP's should been spent on what the characters "pre-technomancer" life was.
GM's making sure the players are playing a real character rather then an archtype goes a long way to leveling out the technomancer character against hackers.
In fact I almost wish Shadowrun had a character creation system similar to Travellers system, where you slowly build your character from his earliest life all the way up to when the game begins. That way if your character was never in the military then how did they learn Gunnery in the first place? it's not like you can just go out and practice that skill on the seattle streets.
So I think that a well rounded charcter, with skills & and cyber appropriate to their background goes a long way to evening out the archtypes and preventing unrealistic min/maxing.
TMs have 2 methods of obtaining more IPs in the meatworld (with their meat body that is... with drones, it's obviously quite easy).
1) drugs. in fact, with the typical TM's body, a single dose of cram is likely to cover an entire run, or at least the time periods where the TM needs multiple IPs. if only a shorter duration is needed, even Jazz would work (technically other drugs would work too, and given the typical physical stats for a TM i could certainly see something like kamikaze being desireable in it's own way, i assume the TM's non-dead status means they don't do stupid things in combat very often =P )
2) edge. sure, TMs often can't afford a particularly high edge, but honestly, how often do you need a bunch of IPs? once or twice per run should be fine, imo.
and yes, i am aware that these have drawbacks, and that furthermore, it makes it really hard for the TM to get 3 IPs (basically they almost have to be addicted to some drug, *and* blow a point of edge), i can't say i see it being a major problem. honestly, i'm not sure how often a third IP will really come into play, and in any event, it's not just a matter of *having* many IPs, it's a matter of being able to use them. i'm not worried about how many IPs someone can have until i know they can do something with one IP. a TM who can be useless in 3 IPs is not any better off than a TM who can be useless in one, imo.
1) drugs. in fact, with the typical TM's body, a single dose of cram is likely to cover an entire run, or at least the time periods where the TM needs multiple IPs. if only a shorter duration is needed, even Jazz would work (technically other drugs would work too, and given the typical physical stats for a TM i could certainly see something like kamikaze being desireable in it's own way, i assume the TM's non-dead status means they don't do stupid things in combat very often =P )
2) edge. sure, TMs often can't afford a particularly high edge, but honestly, how often do you need a bunch of IPs? once or twice per run should be fine, imo.
and yes, i am aware that these have drawbacks, and that furthermore, it makes it really hard for the TM to get 3 IPs (basically they almost have to be addicted to some drug, *and* blow a point of edge), i can't say i see it being a major problem. honestly, i'm not sure how often a third IP will really come into play, and in any event, it's not just a matter of *having* many IPs, it's a matter of being able to use them. i'm not worried about how many IPs someone can have until i know they can do something with one IP. a TM who can be useless in 3 IPs is not any better off than a TM who can be useless in one, imo.
@KK.
While the TM is limited to one IP their drones are not.
Really, when you boil it down, the SR4 designers took the old player archtype of the bunker type rigger/decker and made it into a class(for lack of a better term).
That's what, in a practical sense, a TM is. It is very difficult for them to be anything else.
This does not make them bad. It should be noted that the old bunker type rigger/decker was considered a little powergamey by many. It simply makes them narrowly defined.
Additionally I don't think they were particularily thought out. I mean who here, among those with earlier printings, didn't take one read through the Sprites and think to themselves "Those bastards didn't even proof this." I mean transfer? decrypt?(which apperantly is a program and a skill) Those were probably things that got tossed around in the early stages of development, so I can see how the people who origionally wrote them could miss it when they copy pasted that section in, but their inclusion means they didn't have someone outside the process do a serious proof.
The reason I think this is a particularily big problem is that they're going to be releasing more goodies and rules in the future and they possibly haven't the foggiest idea how it will interact with TMs.
My favorite ways this could go crazy.
1. Matrix heavy stuff calibrated to hacker abilities. I haven't picked up emergence yet. But I could see TMs getting to spank deuce or something similar in the future. Or maybe they'll print up Zurich Orbital or something, and TMs will breeze through.
2. Snake style automated weapons. I think these showed up in some editions already in some form. Basically it's a motorized segmented drone thing that attacks like a metal tail largely independently of the user. You just hold it in your hands and let it handle the close combat. In the hands of a TM, well, I don't know if I even want to think about it.
3. Exosuits/anthroform drones. Just. please. no.
While the TM is limited to one IP their drones are not.
Really, when you boil it down, the SR4 designers took the old player archtype of the bunker type rigger/decker and made it into a class(for lack of a better term).
That's what, in a practical sense, a TM is. It is very difficult for them to be anything else.
This does not make them bad. It should be noted that the old bunker type rigger/decker was considered a little powergamey by many. It simply makes them narrowly defined.
Additionally I don't think they were particularily thought out. I mean who here, among those with earlier printings, didn't take one read through the Sprites and think to themselves "Those bastards didn't even proof this." I mean transfer? decrypt?(which apperantly is a program and a skill) Those were probably things that got tossed around in the early stages of development, so I can see how the people who origionally wrote them could miss it when they copy pasted that section in, but their inclusion means they didn't have someone outside the process do a serious proof.
The reason I think this is a particularily big problem is that they're going to be releasing more goodies and rules in the future and they possibly haven't the foggiest idea how it will interact with TMs.
My favorite ways this could go crazy.
1. Matrix heavy stuff calibrated to hacker abilities. I haven't picked up emergence yet. But I could see TMs getting to spank deuce or something similar in the future. Or maybe they'll print up Zurich Orbital or something, and TMs will breeze through.
2. Snake style automated weapons. I think these showed up in some editions already in some form. Basically it's a motorized segmented drone thing that attacks like a metal tail largely independently of the user. You just hold it in your hands and let it handle the close combat. In the hands of a TM, well, I don't know if I even want to think about it.
3. Exosuits/anthroform drones. Just. please. no.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| 3. Exosuits/anthroform drones. Just. please. no. |
heh, i dunno if you have any idea just how horribly wrong that could go, but let me put it this way: imagine the entire athletics group crammed into one skill (pilot anthroform). imagine all the skills that have specialisations applicable only while in a vehicle... add in the ability to use any ranged weapon with a single skill (gunnery).
basically, you end up with a lot of the utility of a street samurai, but squeezed into a lot fewer skills. all of a sudden, physical attributes become largely irrelevant, and the matrix attributes become the most important thing.
seriously, the way SR4 rules are set up, anthroform technology is a *very* powerful thing to have...
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 27 2007, 05:53 PM) | ||
heh, i dunno if you have any idea just how horribly wrong that could go, but let me put it this way: imagine the entire athletics group crammed into one skill (pilot anthroform). imagine all the skills that have specialisations applicable only while in a vehicle... add in the ability to use any ranged weapon with a single skill (gunnery). basically, you end up with a lot of the utility of a street samurai, but squeezed into a lot fewer skills. all of a sudden, physical attributes become largely irrelevant, and the matrix attributes become the most important thing. seriously, the way SR4 rules are set up, anthroform technology is a *very* powerful thing to have... |
While I can certainly grok how powerful that is in this ruleset, from a non-mechanical standpoint....isn't a battlemech a tad excessive for most runs?
Pg.233 Table: Living Persona
| QUOTE |
Other Ratings Value VR Matrix Initiative 3 |
TM's have a total of 3 IP in the matrix and are considered always hotsimed.
The Control Device Matrix action is a troublesome beast as its easily abused. ( As the other systems are limited by attribute / skill ratings, the Control Matrix action has very few caps.)
Hopefully this can be addressed.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| all of a sudden, physical attributes become largely irrelevant, and the matrix attributes become the most important thing. |
Welcome to the 21st century!
| QUOTE (bait) | ||
Pg.233 Table: Living Persona
TM's have a total of 3 IP in the matrix and are considered always hotsimed. The Control Device Matrix action is a troublesome beast as its easily abused. ( As the other systems are limited by attribute / skill ratings, the Control Matrix action has very few caps.) Hopefully this can be addressed. |
It's called the Overclocking Echo. Adds 1 Response and IP.
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||
heh, i dunno if you have any idea just how horribly wrong that could go, but let me put it this way: imagine the entire athletics group crammed into one skill (pilot anthroform). imagine all the skills that have specialisations applicable only while in a vehicle... add in the ability to use any ranged weapon with a single skill (gunnery). basically, you end up with a lot of the utility of a street samurai, but squeezed into a lot fewer skills. all of a sudden, physical attributes become largely irrelevant, and the matrix attributes become the most important thing. seriously, the way SR4 rules are set up, anthroform technology is a *very* powerful thing to have... |
Well, in relation to the OP's request for a fix for TM's so that they are more multi-capable. This sounds like it would certainly do the trick.
Don't forget, if it's riggable, they'll have 3 or 4 ip running around in the super suit.
---
Though, in my own personal experience, TM's make pretty good faces, as you already have to boost your charisma pretty high. If you throw 20bp into the social group, you've got a decent backup face, or if your group goes for more firepower and less talking, a perfectly functional primary face. Or you can put those 20bp into just negotiation and get a 5(7). Which means either 7 dice in all social skills, or 10-12 dice in one social skill, assuming a charisma of 5 to start.
As long as the anthroform isn't as broken as the old JIM Diving Exoskeleton (from Cyberpirates! What, didn't everyone get that one? 
) Vehicle armor of 6, STR 7 (base, can bump to 10 for 5,000 
/ point), full enviroseal with air for 20 hrs, got full bonuses for rigging, runs as a vehicle. All for 25,000 . They totally rocked and had no rules saying you couldn't pop 'em up on to dry land and use them as the cheap powered armor they actually were. They were the perfect accessory for the bunker rigger in case it all went pear-shaped. Strap in to this bad boy and your puny STR and BOD didn't matter a bit, the punks had to get through vehicle armor first while you were rolling mad combat dice. Strength, speed, full life support, it had it all. MMM...sweet munchkin-y goodness. Didn't have enough of the other vehicle stats in the entry to really be usable, no rating on power supply, speed, body, but could be built quick enough as a large anthroform chassis.
My tiny underdeveloped quadriplegic rigger wanted to build one that looked like a big troll but still had enough space for him to pretty much live in curled up in the belly. Never actually got that build finished before the campaign ended.
But as a last line of defense for a hacker/rigger/tm with poor personal combat skills it can't be beat.
) Vehicle armor of 6, STR 7 (base, can bump to 10 for 5,000 / point), full enviroseal with air for 20 hrs, got full bonuses for rigging, runs as a vehicle. All for 25,000 . They totally rocked and had no rules saying you couldn't pop 'em up on to dry land and use them as the cheap powered armor they actually were. They were the perfect accessory for the bunker rigger in case it all went pear-shaped. Strap in to this bad boy and your puny STR and BOD didn't matter a bit, the punks had to get through vehicle armor first while you were rolling mad combat dice. Strength, speed, full life support, it had it all. MMM...sweet munchkin-y goodness. Didn't have enough of the other vehicle stats in the entry to really be usable, no rating on power supply, speed, body, but could be built quick enough as a large anthroform chassis.My tiny underdeveloped quadriplegic rigger wanted to build one that looked like a big troll but still had enough space for him to pretty much live in curled up in the belly. Never actually got that build finished before the campaign ended.
But as a last line of defense for a hacker/rigger/tm with poor personal combat skills it can't be beat.
Jaid, forgery can be used with an edit program. Which, could be used to forge say, fake tickets as she said. Or anything else digital. As long as you don't need to physically create the image (painting, sculpture etc) you could use an edit program to fake it. I don't think its a waste.
Actually the more I'm thinking about it the more I like the ideas of the "light" technomancer and the spritemaster.
Usually I think of PC TMs as hardcore with Res 6 maybe hacking 6 all the CFs they can fit.
But a relaxed build would actually be fine. Res at 5. fours in crack, compile and register, electronics at a 3 (you can reroll threading all you want), maybe only 8 CFs at rating 5 so logic can be 4, only one codeslinger trait. So that's only 197 CP on the TM stuff and performace isn't that much lowered since they can still thread/assist up. Most of the time you aren't running Ares' mainframe anyway. That would let you pick up some RL skills and have decent stats. Of course you'd be using drones for most RL stuff, just this way you could have some social skills or infiltrate on your own.
And the spiritmaster would be even moreso with res 6(maybe even 5)? And compile and reg at 5, maybe 1 in software just in case. That's only 115 BP. Leaving them open to get a lot. And with drones mech guns they could be really versatile.
Usually I think of PC TMs as hardcore with Res 6 maybe hacking 6 all the CFs they can fit.
But a relaxed build would actually be fine. Res at 5. fours in crack, compile and register, electronics at a 3 (you can reroll threading all you want), maybe only 8 CFs at rating 5 so logic can be 4, only one codeslinger trait. So that's only 197 CP on the TM stuff and performace isn't that much lowered since they can still thread/assist up. Most of the time you aren't running Ares' mainframe anyway. That would let you pick up some RL skills and have decent stats. Of course you'd be using drones for most RL stuff, just this way you could have some social skills or infiltrate on your own.
And the spiritmaster would be even moreso with res 6(maybe even 5)? And compile and reg at 5, maybe 1 in software just in case. That's only 115 BP. Leaving them open to get a lot. And with drones mech guns they could be really versatile.
| QUOTE |
| It's called the Overclocking Echo. Adds 1 Response and IP. |
Actually the TM has a base of 1 IP and +2 IP as he's operating as if he was using hot sim. The Overclocking Echo is an advancement that allows the TM to hit the maximum 4 IP.
A couple of things, I have found that Orcs make an optimal build for TMs, and as they are the most prolific of the metahuman races it stands to reason, that they would have a lot of TM from them as well.
I built an ORC TM with this as his build:
I have had decent playtesting hacking into Missions systems. I have found that with the core CFs I have Threaded to MAX. I can get by. If I need another CF, Thread it with a Sprite's help.
Also you can throw some dice down with a TM. My GM and I found this:
I built an ORC TM with this as his build:
[ Spoiler ]
I have had decent playtesting hacking into Missions systems. I have found that with the core CFs I have Threaded to MAX. I can get by. If I need another CF, Thread it with a Sprite's help.
Also you can throw some dice down with a TM. My GM and I found this:
| QUOTE |
| SR4BBB, Hot Sim p. 229 When operating with hot sim full-VR, use your Matrix Initiative rather than your physical Initiative. Hot sim Matrix Initiative equals your Response + Intuition + 1, and you receive two extra Initiative Passes (for a total of three). You also receive an exceptional +2 dice pool bonus to all Matrix tests while in hot sim mode, due to your hypersensitized state. |
and this
| QUOTE |
| SR4 BBB The living Persona p. 232 Note that when technomancers immerse themselves in full-VR, they are always considered to be running with hot sim (see p. 229). Th e speed bonus for hot sim is already calculated into their Response and Initiative, but keep in mind that they also receive +2 to all full-VR Matrix tests as well. |
So this is an addiditional 4 dice to any Matrix Action in VR and by virtue of Being a TM.
Plus for Perception checks in the Matrix you get that bonus on top of this:
| QUOTE |
| SR4 BBB Matrix Perception Matrix Perception Due to their resonance with the ebb and fl ow of data in the Matrix, technomancers receive a +2 dice pool bonus on all Matrix Perception Tests. |
I would say that on top of any specializations and Qualities can pose a real threat to anyone facing a TM in the Matrix.
Its only +2 dice on matrix actions as this is already incorporated into the TM.
| QUOTE (bait) |
| Its only +2 dice on matrix actions as this is already incorporated into the TM. |
I don't know the wording is kinda ambigous as it references that specific entry and then states TM get +2 dice as well. It kinda looks like it stacks. If it does, that just makes TMs more UBER.
| QUOTE (Magus) | ||
I don't know the wording is kinda ambigous as it references that specific entry and then states TM get +2 dice as well. It kinda looks like it stacks. If it does, that just makes TMs more UBER. |
I think it was clarified in the errata or the FAQ that TMs only get +2. The "as well" just meant "they get +2 same as everyone else in VR."
Although I could be wrong...
Every time someone brings up exosuits, it reminds me of:
"They're the wrong trousers, Grommitt. And they've gone wrong!"
"They're the wrong trousers, Grommitt. And they've gone wrong!"
| QUOTE (Sunnyside) |
| While the TM is limited to one IP their drones are not. |
...but a drone will not help the TM dodge bullets from a wired up Sammie with an Alpha who draws a bead on her after she has used her one physical action.
...unless she wants to waste the drone to take the shot for her and risk taking dumpshock. That can get pretty expensive.
Well one tidbit in the FAQ is
Do you need the Command program to control drones (or agents)?
Not necessarily. You can issue a command to the agent/drone for its Pilot to interpret and follow, or you can simply "jump into" the drone and control it directly. But if you want to control a drone directly without jumping in (i.e., via AR), you need the Command program.
So I guess there is your superrigging right there.
Anyway I'm really pretty sure that the +2 is just a reference to the general hot sim modifier since that's what they're talking about. If they wanted to give the TM an additional +2 for a total of +4 I'm pretty sure they would have explicitly said so.
Do you need the Command program to control drones (or agents)?
Not necessarily. You can issue a command to the agent/drone for its Pilot to interpret and follow, or you can simply "jump into" the drone and control it directly. But if you want to control a drone directly without jumping in (i.e., via AR), you need the Command program.
So I guess there is your superrigging right there.
Anyway I'm really pretty sure that the +2 is just a reference to the general hot sim modifier since that's what they're talking about. If they wanted to give the TM an additional +2 for a total of +4 I'm pretty sure they would have explicitly said so.
The "secret" to building a good technomancer (or, to my taste at least, a mage) is not maxing out resonance (or magic). Resonance 5 is fine. My mage started with magic 4.
The power gap between hacker and technomancer is closed by sprites, easily. I´m quite willing to pay a few dice at max. level for those. And thats besides being a full blown hacker once you buy the tech, as you have the skills anyway. (one could go without CF and programs instead, I´m ready to believe Franks BP-numbers on that).
About secondary roles, face was mentioned. About anything linked to mental attributes has decent pools once you buy the skill. If you want to get physical, one point of lost essence will fix many problems.
I suggest reaction enhancers in combination with muscle augmentation and cerebral boosters (Ratings depend on the grade, but muscle aug II + cerebral I + reaction enhancer II cost 46k base at 0.9 essence, buying resonance back something below 20karma).
The power gap between hacker and technomancer is closed by sprites, easily. I´m quite willing to pay a few dice at max. level for those. And thats besides being a full blown hacker once you buy the tech, as you have the skills anyway. (one could go without CF and programs instead, I´m ready to believe Franks BP-numbers on that).
About secondary roles, face was mentioned. About anything linked to mental attributes has decent pools once you buy the skill. If you want to get physical, one point of lost essence will fix many problems.
I suggest reaction enhancers in combination with muscle augmentation and cerebral boosters (Ratings depend on the grade, but muscle aug II + cerebral I + reaction enhancer II cost 46k base at 0.9 essence, buying resonance back something below 20karma).
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Anyway I'm really pretty sure that the +2 is just a reference to the general hot sim modifier since that's what they're talking about. If they wanted to give the TM an additional +2 for a total of +4 I'm pretty sure they would have explicitly said so. |
I always interpreted that as an additional bonus on top of the +2 from full VR in the same way that a control rig adds an additional +2 on top of full VR.
What use is the vaunted Stealth 12 that a TM can aspire to whenit lasts for 18 seconds and it requires you to be followed around by a sprite who distinctly does not have a Stealth of 12?
-Frank
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| What use is the vaunted Stealth 12 that a TM can aspire to whenit lasts for 18 seconds and it requires you to be followed around by a sprite who distinctly does not have a Stealth of 12? -Frank |
You could always sustain it without the Sprite and just deal with the -2 penalty to actions.
| QUOTE (Cellshade) | ||
You could always sustain it without the Sprite and just deal with the -2 penalty to actions. |
But now you definitely are not talking about a Stealth of 12, you're tlaking about a Stealth of ~8. And honestly, rolling a smaller pool on Exploit and having a Stealth of 8 or 9 instead of 5 or 6 is not an amazingly good position to be in.
-Frank
Ok a couple things on stealth 12.
The first thing is that when you're hacking in you aren't rolling stealth. It's a threshold for the system to detect you as you hack in. At this point the sprite doesn't enter the picture except for that it helps you. It should be noted that this is often the decisive point of a hack, and hence why stealth 12 is mentioned more than, say, decrypt 12.
Of course once you're inside it's different. Now if you want a sprite assisting your stealth up to twelve it has to be in the node with you. Of course if you had to choose between getting detected with your basic stealth of 6 or NOT being detected and having them find one of your sprites first, I think the choice is obvious.
However, if you're worried about spiders, threading is probably the way to go. In the FAQ they say that the -2 sustaining penalty doesn't apply to that CF. So you really would have stealth 12. Of course that would reduce the other matrix actions you perform. So you have to decide how you want to go about things.
Technomancering isn't about having things be simple. You've gotta make decisions about whether right now you need that stealth or if you really need that super analyze. Or maybe you should make yourself an admin acount and relog in de-stealthed?
Or do you want to try sustaining both for a while?
Personally I'd advise keeping stealth on full and just making multiple matrix perception checks.
Also note that you can keep retrying to thread without taking any fading by using 0 hits each time until you get the number you want. The only limit being how much time you have, and how much fading you're willing to risk.
The first thing is that when you're hacking in you aren't rolling stealth. It's a threshold for the system to detect you as you hack in. At this point the sprite doesn't enter the picture except for that it helps you. It should be noted that this is often the decisive point of a hack, and hence why stealth 12 is mentioned more than, say, decrypt 12.
Of course once you're inside it's different. Now if you want a sprite assisting your stealth up to twelve it has to be in the node with you. Of course if you had to choose between getting detected with your basic stealth of 6 or NOT being detected and having them find one of your sprites first, I think the choice is obvious.
However, if you're worried about spiders, threading is probably the way to go. In the FAQ they say that the -2 sustaining penalty doesn't apply to that CF. So you really would have stealth 12. Of course that would reduce the other matrix actions you perform. So you have to decide how you want to go about things.
Technomancering isn't about having things be simple. You've gotta make decisions about whether right now you need that stealth or if you really need that super analyze. Or maybe you should make yourself an admin acount and relog in de-stealthed?
Or do you want to try sustaining both for a while?
Personally I'd advise keeping stealth on full and just making multiple matrix perception checks.
Also note that you can keep retrying to thread without taking any fading by using 0 hits each time until you get the number you want. The only limit being how much time you have, and how much fading you're willing to risk.
| QUOTE (Cellshade) | ||
I always interpreted that as an additional bonus on top of the +2 from full VR in the same way that a control rig adds an additional +2 on top of full VR. |
The TM is always assumed to be running in Hot sim, so you can't get the bonus a second time.
The control rig only adds the +2 to vehicle tests when jumped in, it doesn't apply to any other matrix action or vehicle control situation.
a few points to add. some of these may reach back a few posts, and i'm too lazy to quote, but they are responding to points within this thread (i think )
1) TMs can't hack with tech, according to the normal rules. if you wish to houserule otherwise, that's fine, but normal rules say no, only with CFs.
2) the sprite sustaining/boosting/etc your complex form can be in another node, with a second copy of your living persona.
3) actually, as a TM, you are most likely *saving* BPs by taking resonance and all your CFs at 6. it's an oddity related to just how much it sucks to buy up CFs after chargen i suppose, that by paying 15 extra points for a point of resonance, you are actually saving more karma than you are spending... (on a side note, i find it funny that Frank has no TMs in his games... his BP character advancement houserule probably does more to un-cripple the technomancer than most rules i have seen, at least)
4) so long as time is not an obstacle, the technomancer's ability to thread a CF up to absolute max is not an issue, provided they don't have less dice than the difference between their natural and their maximum threaded value. they can always choose to take 0 hits, and resist 0 fading, until they successfully achieve the number of hits they want.
)1) TMs can't hack with tech, according to the normal rules. if you wish to houserule otherwise, that's fine, but normal rules say no, only with CFs.
2) the sprite sustaining/boosting/etc your complex form can be in another node, with a second copy of your living persona.
3) actually, as a TM, you are most likely *saving* BPs by taking resonance and all your CFs at 6. it's an oddity related to just how much it sucks to buy up CFs after chargen i suppose, that by paying 15 extra points for a point of resonance, you are actually saving more karma than you are spending... (on a side note, i find it funny that Frank has no TMs in his games... his BP character advancement houserule probably does more to un-cripple the technomancer than most rules i have seen, at least)
4) so long as time is not an obstacle, the technomancer's ability to thread a CF up to absolute max is not an issue, provided they don't have less dice than the difference between their natural and their maximum threaded value. they can always choose to take 0 hits, and resist 0 fading, until they successfully achieve the number of hits they want.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| 1) TMs can't hack with tech, according to the normal rules. if you wish to houserule otherwise, that's fine, but normal rules say no, only with CFs |
| QUOTE (BBB @ p233) |
Technomancers may learn the normal versions of these skills [referring to Computer, cybercombat, etc] separately (or use normal skillsofts), but they inevitably find the normal way of doing things to be hopelessly clumsy and backwards. |
Now, paying BP for 2 "Computer" skills etc., as well as buying programs, is certainly a huge BP sink, but while I may be splitting hairs, I think the distinction is important.
| QUOTE (dionysus) |
| Now, paying BP for 2 "Computer" skills etc., as well as buying programs, is certainly a huge BP sink, but while I may be splitting hairs, I think the distinction is important. |
if you have enough BPs to buy up 2 sets of the necessary skills, then you aren't much of a TM to begin with.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...but a drone will not help the TM dodge bullets from a wired up Sammie with an Alpha who draws a bead on her after she has used her one physical action. ...unless she wants to waste the drone to take the shot for her and risk taking dumpshock. That can get pretty expensive. |
Well not always, in a SR 3, my rigger was caught outside his vehicle, in a warehouse along with his team. The bad guys targeted the Troll and the Mage. The Troll character with a Trauma Damper recovered first, he returned fire, and the Mage did his magical inviso thing.
My rigger's first action was to fall to the ground, the bad guys used explosives to enter the building. During most firefights as long as both sides have characters standing, the fallen ones generally are left alone.
Big Mistake, while lying prone, he popped the concealed turrets, and proceeded to turn the bad guys into hamburger meat.
During the fight the bad guys were heard saying kill the rigger in the vehicle.
Remember the priorities of targets in SR, Mages, Trolls, Big Guns, and so on.
There is more than one way to use drones/rigged vehicles.
| QUOTE (bait) |
| The TM is always assumed to be running in Hot sim, so you can't get the bonus a second time. |
It's not the bonus a second time. It's a line that specifically adds another +2 just for Matrix Perception tests.
The fact that it's specific to a certain test makes it clear that it's separate from the overall VR hotsim +2 bonus.
Nobodies arguing the perception thing Cellshade. We're arguing a second general +2 bonus. So +6 perception.
@Jaid Actually I think your number 2 is an excellent point. While I don't think the FAQ guy was thinking about it they do say you can have personas in multiple places(that still works with VR right? Or no? I should check. Allowing for a remote boost at the slight chance something goes wrong in the other node (likely your comlink).
Well that makes things easier. Though in practice you'll probably still thread things since it is such a pain getting lots of the high end services. Except when your turbo hacking on the fly.
@Jaid Actually I think your number 2 is an excellent point. While I don't think the FAQ guy was thinking about it they do say you can have personas in multiple places(that still works with VR right? Or no? I should check. Allowing for a remote boost at the slight chance something goes wrong in the other node (likely your comlink).
Well that makes things easier. Though in practice you'll probably still thread things since it is such a pain getting lots of the high end services. Except when your turbo hacking on the fly.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Nobodies arguing the perception thing Cellshade. We're arguing a second general +2 bonus. So +6 perception. |
Oh, my apologies, then, I misunderstood.
My point was that in VR everyone gets +2 dice, then in the living personal section of the Wireless World- Technomancer it says that TMs get another +2 and they also get a bonus to Matrix Perception test.
| QUOTE (Magus) |
| My point was that in VR everyone gets +2 dice, then in the living personal section of the Wireless World- Technomancer it says that TMs get another +2 and they also get a bonus to Matrix Perception test. |
And those that are arguing against you are saying that the second general bonus isn't a second bonus but a reminder that anyone running in Hot VR gets +2 dice.
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