Full Version: Possession FAQ
| QUOTE (Limited Infinity) |
| Sorry for digging this thread out of the past, but I have a few more questions on possession: Can a possessed mage continue to sustain spells cast before possession without channeling? Can an astrally projected mage, with the mages meat possessed, continue to cast and sustain spells on the now dual natured spirit? Does a possessed mage still have access to foci? Does an astrally projected mage, with the mages meat possessed still have access to foci? Dose a possessing spirit have access to a mages foci? Can a non-possession based tradition learn channeling? Also some slightly n00b questions. Can a possession based bound spirit use sustain spell service from the astral plane or dose it need to possess something/someone to sustain a spell? Do spirits/possessing spirits get a base armor value? For instance vs. indirect combat spells that are not normal weapons, but still calculate armor into dice pools. A spirit can sustain a spell for a mage. Can a mage likewise sustain a spell for a spirit of man, or dose the spirit not need to devote dice modifiers like the rest of it's sustained powers? |
I'm not an authority on this but I'll try to give my common sense answers and my understanding of the rules based on the FAQ:
1. Yes the mage can sustain spells before posession, but not cast new ones while posessed except when astrally projecting.
2. Yes, as the dual natured being is present on both planes at once.
3. Yes.
4. Yes, foci are still on when the mage astrally projects, and being posessed does not change this. He can also activate/deactivate them.
5. No direct access, although a spell cast on the mages body can still be sustained by a sustaining focus.
6. In theory I would say yes, but the mage would need to have friends summinging possession spirits to "practice" on. Most would not bother though.
7. Spells can be sustained from the Astral by spirits, possession or not. In fact, there is little else for possession spirits to do unless they possess the mage. his friends or an object.
8. Spirits have no natural armor, and against spells they only use half worn armor or item armor when possessing. Spells, weapon foci etc. are the achilles heel of spirits in general.
9. I don't think a mage can sustain a spell for a spirit, and unlike other powers the spirit follows the general rules for spellcasting.
Hey I played a possession mage for the first time today (a Houngan). Great fun and good roleplay, although there was no combat and I only had an NPC possessed once. It was a great help to more or less discreetly possess a target and have him follow willingly to be subdued, captured and interrogated.
But an issue came up: Fluff. What does someone possessed feel? What visible signs are there, if any? Will a possessed man in a tavern make people scream and call Lone Star, or will just people think he is acting a bit odd, and that people do sometimes?
It's bad enough that I've taken dancing and incantation geasa, I don't really need too flashy possession also.
But an issue came up: Fluff. What does someone possessed feel? What visible signs are there, if any? Will a possessed man in a tavern make people scream and call Lone Star, or will just people think he is acting a bit odd, and that people do sometimes?
It's bad enough that I've taken dancing and incantation geasa, I don't really need too flashy possession also.
depends on the force of the ghost i'd say . . weak ghost barely able to controll body might be having problems with exactly that, resulting in strange motions of the body it posesses . . but it'd be not very noticable if the people think he might be slotting or having had too much to drink . . a stronger ghost might give off some aura that makes people feel unomfortable close to the body in use but not know what it is they feel . . STRONG Ghosts will most likely have some physical clues . . like odd eye-colours(ok with cyber-eyes that's not much of a sign*g*) for example . . a healthy glow and somehow more fluid motions and maybe a little more bulky . . cocky and confident behaviour . . if people know the body does not act like that usually they will smell that something is wrong . .
well, that actually went wrong then, FotD.
spirits, unless they have the realistic form power, are always clearly identifiable as spirits. nothing is explicitly mentioned as to what makes this so easy to tell, but it applies to both materialising and possessing spirits.
spirits, unless they have the realistic form power, are always clearly identifiable as spirits. nothing is explicitly mentioned as to what makes this so easy to tell, but it applies to both materialising and possessing spirits.
ah so there IS a rule about that . . would a ghost with the realistic form metahuman(let's say a Troll) be able to look like the Dwarf he just possessed without anyone noticing?
I may be mistaken, but I think only Ally Spirit get Realistic Form.
Free Spirits don't? O.o
And of course we know Possession Magics do not get Ally Spirits right?
And of course we know Possession Magics do not get Ally Spirits right?
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| Free Spirits don't? |
Dunno. Probably.
| QUOTE |
| And of course we know Possession Magics do not get Ally Spirits right? |
Sure they do. I was commenting more on the idea of a Possession Mage just calling up a random Spirit with that specific Power. Ally Spirits (and free Spirits as well) are another matter entirely, which prompted my comment.
okay . . seems like i have to reread street magic . . again *grumbles* <.<
Flesh Form Insect Spirits get Realistic Form. No other mention of it anywhere else in Street Magic other than in context with Allies and Free Spirits (and the Shadow Spirit, which confuses me).
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| well, that actually went wrong then, FotD. spirits, unless they have the realistic form power, are always clearly identifiable as spirits. nothing is explicitly mentioned as to what makes this so easy to tell, but it applies to both materialising and possessing spirits. |
Thanks for pointing out this, although you are wrong. I just read the "spotting spirits" section of SM, and it explicitly says that materialized spirits are automatically identified, while possessing spirits are a bit harder to spot.
The difficulty is the same as spotting spellcasting - theshold 6- spirits force. So people in the tavern would need 1 hit to see my force 5 possessed Lone Star Captain. His aide/bodyguard would surely succeed, the rest would probably be distracted and only perceptive characters would have noticed - i.e GM call.
Armed with this knowledge i would probably have played that the aide would have spotted the spirit and called for backup. But as far as I know I might has well used a force 3 spirit for possessing the captain - not that great chance of success but alot less obvious. Threshold 3 on perception tests are actually fairly hard, even if many PCs have dice pools of 15+ in visual perception.
I did some looking through the tread and couldn't find an answer for this question.
What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel?
Some would say just the movement rate of the vessel. Since it has been said in this thread that a vessel that doesn't have moving components can't move when possessed. (ie. the possessed gun)
But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit?
If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement?
And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records...
What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel?
Some would say just the movement rate of the vessel. Since it has been said in this thread that a vessel that doesn't have moving components can't move when possessed. (ie. the possessed gun)
But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit?
If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement?
And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records...
I was just coming in to ask almost the same question, actually.
Also, how does engulf work with possession spirits? If a mage is possessed by a fire spirit, how does he engulf a target? It's easy to visualize a living column of flame engulfing someone, but much less easy to see how it would work with a metahuman with fiery eyes or the like...
Also, how does engulf work with possession spirits? If a mage is possessed by a fire spirit, how does he engulf a target? It's easy to visualize a living column of flame engulfing someone, but much less easy to see how it would work with a metahuman with fiery eyes or the like...
| QUOTE (Feshy @ Jan 20 2008, 10:01 AM) |
| I was just coming in to ask almost the same question, actually. Also, how does engulf work with possession spirits? If a mage is possessed by a fire spirit, how does he engulf a target? It's easy to visualize a living column of flame engulfing someone, but much less easy to see how it would work with a metahuman with fiery eyes or the like... |
hehe, seems we are on teh same wavelength, Feshy.
An answer to your question is on page 100 of SM. It basically says the spirit doesnt have to drag the victim into itself, but just has to make melee contact with them.
In your example, it would be like many supernatural and horror movies. The firey eyes guy would touch the target and the target would go up in flames, ie. get engulfed.
I see lots of folks reading this thread, but n one wants to touch the issue... LoL
Regarding "spotting spirits", there's nothing in the rules about what a possessed character looks like or if there are any ways to modify that role.
p.102 says "Occasionally a possessing spirit’s nature manifests through the vessel in an effect similar to a shamanic mask (p. 168, SR4). Success not only notices the possessing/inhabiting spirit, but also delivers some clues as to what the spirit “really looks like."
P. 95 has a little more detail and says "To notice a spirit possessing/inhabiting a vessel, an observer must make a Perception Test and beat a threshold of 6 – the spirit’s Force."
If they are using their powers, they may be a little easier to spot: "At the gamemaster’s discretion, the use of the spirit’s powers may create an effect
like a shamanic mask, adding a +2 dice pool modifier to the Perception Test."
Spotters just get 6 minus spirit's force to spot the spirit in the person even if the possessed character is 10 miles down the street, hiding behind a curtain, wearing a trenchcoat sunglasses and hat, and standing deep in shadow.
I've always taken the "traditional" approach and figured a possessed character could have an otherworldly voice ("THERE IS NO DANA, ONLY ZHUUL"), spectral eyes (Spawn), or (at higher force) more exotic effects like ectoplasmic wisps of shadow, writhing skin, and such.
So by that paradigm, the possessed character gets perception mods to his concealment roll such as distance, shadow, heavy clothing, etc. Therefore the possessing character could conceal his nature (depending on what the GM says the "special effects" are of the possession) with a Physical Mask spell or even a mundane disguise. For example, an electronic speech synthesizer on the throat would conceal an otherworldly voice but wouldn't do anything to disguise transparent glowing skin.
Hope this helps.
p.102 says "Occasionally a possessing spirit’s nature manifests through the vessel in an effect similar to a shamanic mask (p. 168, SR4). Success not only notices the possessing/inhabiting spirit, but also delivers some clues as to what the spirit “really looks like."
P. 95 has a little more detail and says "To notice a spirit possessing/inhabiting a vessel, an observer must make a Perception Test and beat a threshold of 6 – the spirit’s Force."
If they are using their powers, they may be a little easier to spot: "At the gamemaster’s discretion, the use of the spirit’s powers may create an effect
like a shamanic mask, adding a +2 dice pool modifier to the Perception Test."
Spotters just get 6 minus spirit's force to spot the spirit in the person even if the possessed character is 10 miles down the street, hiding behind a curtain, wearing a trenchcoat sunglasses and hat, and standing deep in shadow.
I've always taken the "traditional" approach and figured a possessed character could have an otherworldly voice ("THERE IS NO DANA, ONLY ZHUUL"), spectral eyes (Spawn), or (at higher force) more exotic effects like ectoplasmic wisps of shadow, writhing skin, and such.
So by that paradigm, the possessed character gets perception mods to his concealment roll such as distance, shadow, heavy clothing, etc. Therefore the possessing character could conceal his nature (depending on what the GM says the "special effects" are of the possession) with a Physical Mask spell or even a mundane disguise. For example, an electronic speech synthesizer on the throat would conceal an otherworldly voice but wouldn't do anything to disguise transparent glowing skin.
Hope this helps.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| SNIP Hope this helps. |
Oh yeah, I never though of using Physical Mask to conceal a spirit possessing someone, that was a nice idea
As for the threshold, would threshold 0 or less always mean automatic to spot? Or would it be better just to give a bonus on the perception check instead per point of force over 5?
In my case the possessed would have a different voice (deeper), often be using obscenities, laughing maniacly at times, a skeletal face... hmm anything else fits a Ghede spirit? I'm thinking Baron Samedi style here.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| As for the threshold, would threshold 0 or less always mean automatic to spot? |
A Threshold of 0 requires one 'hit'. A Threshold of 1 requires two 'hits', or one 'net hit' beyond the Threshold. And so on.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
A Threshold of 0 requires one 'hit'. A Threshold of 1 requires two 'hits', or one 'net hit' beyond the Threshold. And so on. |
Really? I thought threshold 1 meant you needed 1 hit to achieve success, not one net hit. This really changes everything, as everything becomes much harder. Then again, I can't seem to recall many threshold 0 tests in the book, the only ones I can recall is the spotting of firearms. Spotting "obvious" is threshold 1 in the perception table which is ridiculous... two hits on a perception test to spot something large and obvious?
Hmm, just read the threshold rules in the BBB and it says threshold 1 means you need 1 hit... net hits just means you do it better.
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 56) |
| Thresholds Hits represent a measure of achievement on a test. In order to succeed completely on a Success Test, you must meet or exceed a gamemaster-determined threshold with your hits. The higher the threshold, the more difficult an action is. The standard threshold is 1 (so only 1 hit is necessary to succeed), though other tests may have a threshold as high as 4. The Difficulty Table lists a range of difficulty levels along with a standard threshold for each. In some cases, a threshold modifier may apply to an action, raising or lowering the threshold by the stated amount. The more net hits a character scores (the more hits exceed the threshold), the more the task was pulled off with finesse and flair. So a character who rolls 4 hits on a threshold 2 test has scored 2 net hits. The gamemaster does not have to (and should not) tell the player what the threshold for any test is before she rolls, unless the character has good reason to know exactly how difficult the action will be. If the threshold is larger than the character’s dice pool, then there is simply no way the character can succeed unless she spends Edge (see p. 67). |
It is interesting to note that the example (in pink) depicts only the hits exceeding the test as successes, whereas the text above it (in green) specifically states that hits equal to the Threshold are 'net hits'. They are not using the term 'net hits' to depict successes however, just grade of success. Other places in the book deal with the term meaning total hits over the threshold (as in Combat or Spellcasting, where the Threshold is set during the Opposed test, and only hits exceeding those of the target count as successes) . Hmmm.
Pretty much every GM I have played under rules it as it is described in pink, but only considered those hits that exceed the Threshold (net hits) to be successes.
Seems I have to have a talk with a couple of GMs.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
It is interesting to note that the example (in pink) depicts only the hits exceeding the test as successes, whereas the text above it (in green) specifically states that hits equal to the Threshold are 'net hits'. They are not using the term 'net hits' to depict successes however, just grade of success. Other places in the book deal with the term meaning total hits over the threshold (as in Combat or Spellcasting, where the Threshold is set during the Opposed test, and only hits exceeding those of the target count as successes) . Hmmm. Pretty much every GM I have played under rules it as it is described in pink, but only considered those hits that exceed the Threshold (net hits) to be successes. Seems I have to have a talk with a couple of GMs. |
Was this your attempt to avoid admitting failure while still not supporting your original claim?
I think the text is fairly clear. Meeting the threshold means the test is successful, net hits adds to the flair.
Opposed test are different since one of the sides need at least one net hit to overcome the other.
For spells such as Improved Reflexes 2 hits are needed to have any effect, net hits increase the speed.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 21 2008, 01:49 PM) |
| Was this your attempt to avoid admitting failure while still not supporting your original claim? |
Not quite. I do find it quite insulting though, that you would say I am doing either of those things. Clearly I admitted I was mistaken (failure? When did I fail? At what?), and therefore do not need to support my original claim. My post was an attempt (albeit maybe a poor one) to serve as an illustration as to why I am confused by the differing uses of 'net hits' in the book.
But thanks!
| QUOTE (raverbane) |
| I did some looking through the tread and couldn't find an answer for this question. What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel? Some would say just the movement rate of the vessel. Since it has been said in this thread that a vessel that doesn't have moving components can't move when possessed. (ie. the possessed gun) But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit? If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement? And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records... |
While folks are taking shots at each other, anyone want to take a crack at my query?
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
Not quite. I do find it quite insulting though, that you would say I am doing either of those things. Clearly I admitted I was mistaken (failure? When did I fail? At what?), and therefore do not need to support my original claim. My post was an attempt (albeit maybe a poor one) to serve as an illustration as to why I am confused by the differing uses of 'net hits' in the book. But thanks!
Really? Increase what speed? |
Easy man I was just making fun, no personal insult intended.
I couldn't easily read that you were mistaken though, only hinting at it ("may have to talk to GMs") Then again, this is not my primary language so excuse me.
As for improved reflexes I did not mean game speed but rather initiative. '
Ravorbane, I think I would use the spirit movement if nothing else was available, even for water and air spirits.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 21 2008, 10:55 PM) |
| I couldn't easily read that you were mistaken though, only hinting at it ("may have to talk to GMs") Then again, this is not my primary language so excuse me. |
Shrug. I highlighted the quote you mentioned, and then went on and paraphrased the text, commenting on how the usage of the wording 'net hits' has (to my way of thinking anyway) a different meaning in other sections of the book. I did not contradict what you wrote at all. Seems clear to me (Your English is fine, so I ain't cutting you any slack there.
).| QUOTE |
| As for improved reflexes I did not mean game speed but rather initiative. |
Yeah. You caught that just before I edited. I figured out what you meant while I was offline, and was hoping to catch it in time. Oops.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
Shrug. I highlighted the quote you mentioned, and then went on and paraphrased the text, commenting on how the usage of the wording 'net hits' has (to my way of thinking anyway) a different meaning in other sections of the book. I did not contradict what you wrote at all. Seems clear to me (Your English is fine, so I ain't cutting you any slack there. ).
Yeah. You caught that just before I edited. I figured out what you meant while I was offline, and was hoping to catch it in time. Oops. |
As for the english, in my language there is really no difference between being mistaken (not offensive?) and failing (offensive?). I thought the word fail (in norwegian "feile") was synonoumous with be mistaken.
And you didn't highlight the quote I was referring too, although you did quote it: "The standard threshold is 1 (so only 1 hit is necessary to succeed"
Notice they say "hit", not "net hit" and so doesen't contradict anything further on. A character who rolls 4 hits against threshold 2 has scored two NET hits. If he only rolled 2 hits he would have no net hits but the test would still (barely) succeed:
Example: First aid requires threshold 2 to stabilize, but net hits are needed to actually heal damage. Since it specifically says you need net hits to heal damage, a simple success is useless unless stabilizing or using first aid for improving a condition (GM decides).
Oh and I think we should try to avoid the 3rd ed. term "successes" and rather call them "hits" or it will be confusing. The concept of net hits did not exist in earlier editions I believe.
My whole point is that it is clumsy.
Let's take your First Aid example. With 4 'hits' (dice that meet or exceed the target number), I would have 3 'successes' ('hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), but 2 'net hits' ('hits' that exceed (only) the Threshold).
You can't really avoid the term 'successes' (or another similar term), because in this case it has a totally distinct meaning from either 'hits' or 'net hits'.
Let's take your First Aid example. With 4 'hits' (dice that meet or exceed the target number), I would have 3 'successes' ('hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), but 2 'net hits' ('hits' that exceed (only) the Threshold).
You can't really avoid the term 'successes' (or another similar term), because in this case it has a totally distinct meaning from either 'hits' or 'net hits'.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| My whole point is that it is clumsy. Let's take your First Aid example. With 4 'hits' (dice that meet or exceed the target number), I would have 3 'successes' ('hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), but 2 'net hits' ('hits' that exceed (only) the Threshold). You can't really avoid the term 'successes' (or another similar term), because in this case it has a totally distinct meaning from either 'hits' or 'net hits'. |
Ok, so you just don't like the rules?
I have never used the term "successes" while playing SR 4 because it is not necessary. Success is either/or in SR 4. If the threshold is 2, one hit is not a success, but it is a "hit" (relevant for determining glitches). 3 hits vs threshold 2 means you have 3 hits and 1 net hit, in other words a success.
In my first aid example I don't see why you say you have 3 "successes" - how many net hits is relevant, or if you succeeded at all (in case of stabilization, possibly preventing infection etc.) What is the point of counting anything but net hits in this case?
How is this clumsy? The only thing success means in this game is wether you succeed in a task(s) or not, it is not another word for "how many dice meet the target number" as it was in previous editions.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 22 2008, 09:02 AM) |
| Ok, so you just don't like the rules? |
Funny! I never said that. I didn't even come close to implying it. Your English is not that bad!
I said the wording was strange. Numerous times! And gave numerous examples of what I meant.
| QUOTE |
| I have never used the term "successes" while playing SR 4 because it is not necessary. Success is either/or in SR 4. If the threshold is 2, one hit is not a success, but it is a "hit" (relevant for determining glitches). 3 hits vs threshold 2 means you have 3 hits and 1 net hit, in other words a success. In my first aid example I don't see why you say you have 3 "successes" - how many net hits is relevant, or if you succeeded at all (in case of stabilization, possibly preventing infection etc.) What is the point of counting anything but net hits in this case? How is this clumsy? The only thing success means in this game is whether you succeed in a task(s) or not, it is not another word for "how many dice meet the target number" as it was in previous editions. |
And here is where you are not following what I am saying.
The rules state that any dice that rolls a 5 or more is a hit. In the case of tests with Thresholds, your 'hits' must "meet or exceed" that Threshold. That means that with a threshold of 2, only the first 'hit' does not count as being successful. The second 'hit' would 'meet' the Threshold, and therefore would be considered successful.
In the case of your First Aid example, if the character only got 2 'hits' on his test, he would heal 1 box of damage, having fulfilled the requirement to 'meet' the Threshold of 2.
But he doesn't have any 'net hits', according to the wording of the rules. Any 'net hits' are counted after the Threshold has been reached.
If the character got 4 'hits' on the same test as above, he would heal 3 boxes, as he 'meets' the Threshold with his second 'hit', and exceeds that Threshold with his third and fourth 'hits' (or two 'net hits').
The wording is clumsy! That is what I am saying.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| 3 hits vs threshold 2 means you have 3 hits and 1 net hit, in other words a success. |
So you have reversed your stance since this conversation started then?
This is how it originated ...
| QUOTE | ||||
Really? I thought threshold 1 meant you needed 1 hit to achieve success, not one net hit. This really changes everything, as everything becomes much harder. Then again, I can't seem to recall many threshold 0 tests in the book, the only ones I can recall is the spotting of firearms. Spotting "obvious" is threshold 1 in the perception table which is ridiculous... two hits on a perception test to spot something large and obvious? Hmm, just read the threshold rules in the BBB and it says threshold 1 means you need 1 hit... net hits just means you do it better. |
By your original logic (which was totally correct according to canon), 1 'hit' on a Threshold 1 test is a success. Therefore 2 'hits' on a Threshold 2 test means a single success. Do you disagree? (It seems that you both agree and disagree by the two separate posts)
I freely admit I was mistaken about the Threshold-to-success ratio, and that you were correct.
My whole problem stems from the use of the wording 'net hits', when that phrase technically means 'successes -1' in this context.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
Funny! I never said that. I didn't even come close to implying it. Your English is not that bad! I said the wording was strange. Numerous times! And gave numerous examples of what I meant.
And here is where you are not following what I am saying. The rules state that any dice that rolls a 5 or more is a hit. In the case of tests with Thresholds, your 'hits' must "meet or exceed" that Threshold. That means that with a threshold of 2, only the first 'hit' does not count as being successful. The second 'hit' would 'meet' the Threshold, and therefore would be considered successful. In the case of your First Aid example, if the character only got 2 'hits' on his test, he would heal 1 box of damage, having fulfilled the requirement to 'meet' the Threshold of 2. But he doesn't have any 'net hits', according to the wording of the rules. Any 'net hits' are counted after the Threshold has been reached. If the character got 4 'hits' on the same test as above, he would heal 3 boxes, as he 'meets' the Threshold with his second 'hit', and exceeds that Threshold with his third and fourth 'hits' (or two 'net hits'). The wording is clumsy! That is what I am saying. By your original logic (which was totally correct according to canon), 1 'hit' on a Threshold 1 test is a success. Therefore 2 'hits' on a Threshold 2 test means a single success. Do you disagree? (It seems that you both agree and disagree by the two separate posts) I freely admit I was mistaken about the Threshold-to-success ratio, and that you were correct. My whole problem stems from the use of the wording 'net hits', when that phrase technically means 'successes -1' in this context. |
Ok so the wording is strange and clumsy, but you still like it? Ok now I'm confused LOL!
No offense, but I think your wording with "successes" is strange. On threshold 2 tests, a single hit does not mean the test is successful. A second hit would make the test successful, but there are still no NET hits. A "hit" cannot be considered successful/nonsuccessful, but the test as a whole may.
In the first aid example, it clearly states you can heal an amount equal to NET hits. Thus two hits makes the test successful, but possibly useless.
I think this is the only skill in the book where actually succeeding the test may be pointless unless you get 1 net hit or more. This is pretty much the exception that proves the rule
2 hits on a threshold 2 test doesen't transate in "one success", but merely success. Net hits doesen't mean "successes -1", it means "hits exceeding the threshold." Net hits means the same for first aid, spellcasting, or even opposed checks such as combat.
As for first aid, it goes down like this:
Player: Rolls first aid. "Ok I got 2 hits that means I met the threshold"
GM: "Ok, then you succeed. Now you can heal 1 box of damage per net hit"
Player: Erhh, I got no net hits at all.
GM: Tough luck.
Player: So I just wasted my time? I got nothing?
GM: Not exactly. Since you succeeded you get to diagnose the character, know the extent of wounds taken, or perhaps the effects of other ailments.
Gm: Ok, since you got not net hits I can only tell you damage taken and that you're poisoned.
Well that's how it might go down. For your last point, net hits doesen't mean "successes -1", but for a threshold 1 test it could mean "hits -1"
And just to clarify I haven't changed my stance, when I said "in other words a success" I was referring to the test as a whole, not the net hit in itself. Any test with net hit(s) is necessarily a successful test.
Well then, I've been playing the game wrong. Does this apply to opposed tests as well?
The only thing this will really change in my is first aid.
Chris
The only thing this will really change in my is first aid.
Chris
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| Well then, I've been playing the game wrong. Does this apply to opposed tests as well? The only thing this will really change in my is first aid. Chris |
I suppose you're talking about threshold 1=1 hit needed, right?
Opposed tests work differently, as they don't have threshold per see. In order for 1 to win a test (be successful) you need 1 net hit.
In the event of a tie, the defender usually comes out first. For example a yakuza slashing at some fool with a katana needs 1 net hit to actually deal damage.
If both has x hits (x being more than 0), the attack connects but does not cause any real damage - in other words a glancing blow. At a GM's discretion, this may be enough to discharge a taser or stun baton, or even deliver poison from the weapon/creature attacking.
How will you change your first aid?
I'm not going to bother quoting any more. You just keep taking everything I say out of context, or deliberately put words into my mouth that I didn't say (write).
I don't quite get how you can consider a test a success, and yet have no beneficial results from that successful test, as you seem to think 2 'hits' on a First Aid test would give you. That is just plain dumb!
The text at the beginning of the Threshold section describes a successful test as 'meeting or exceeding' the Threshold. In my opinion, the text that describes 'net hits' in that same section is wrong (it should, in my opinion, describe 'net hits' as any 'hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), and that it should coincide with the earlier text describing the requirements for a successful Threshold test.
If we play it your way, the every basic test (Threshold 1) would require 2 'hits' to actually accomplish anything. Getting only 1 'hit' would result in a successful test though. There would just be no results. That's not even close to logical, in my opinion.
I don't quite get how you can consider a test a success, and yet have no beneficial results from that successful test, as you seem to think 2 'hits' on a First Aid test would give you. That is just plain dumb!
The text at the beginning of the Threshold section describes a successful test as 'meeting or exceeding' the Threshold. In my opinion, the text that describes 'net hits' in that same section is wrong (it should, in my opinion, describe 'net hits' as any 'hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), and that it should coincide with the earlier text describing the requirements for a successful Threshold test.
If we play it your way, the every basic test (Threshold 1) would require 2 'hits' to actually accomplish anything. Getting only 1 'hit' would result in a successful test though. There would just be no results. That's not even close to logical, in my opinion.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I'm not going to bother quoting any more. You just keep taking everything I say out of context, or deliberately put words into my mouth that I didn't say (write). I don't quite get how you can consider a test a success, and yet have no beneficial results from that successful test, as you seem to think 2 'hits' on a First Aid test would give you. That is just plain dumb! The text at the beginning of the Threshold section describes a successful test as 'meeting or exceeding' the Threshold. In my opinion, the text that describes 'net hits' in that same section is wrong (it should, in my opinion, describe 'net hits' as any 'hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), and that it should coincide with the earlier text describing the requirements for a successful Threshold test. If we play it your way, the every basic test (Threshold 1) would require 2 'hits' to actually accomplish anything. Getting only 1 'hit' would result in a successful test though. There would just be no results. That's not even close to logical, in my opinion. |
Right back at ya...
As I'm trying to say, First Aid has special rules. As far as I know there is no threshold 1 test that also requires net hits to be effective, so that's not playing it "my way."
You could say the first aid skill rules are dumb, but I'm not sure how they should write it... They could inrease the threshold to 3 and then say you heal 1 box of damage+1 per net hit but it's just as easy for me to count every net hit above threshold 2 to heal damage.
And besides, if you use threshold 3 for stabilization etc. it makes it very difficult.
And as I tried to say, 2 hits are not always useless, for stabilization it is necessary, and in that case net hits are irrelevant.
So do I understand you right that you want all the hits equal to and exceeding the threshold to count as net hits? So if you get 3 hits on a threshold 1 test you actually got 3 net hits as well? I don't understand how this is simpler than
net hits=total hits - threshold.
Yes, I want all 'hits' that are accounted as successes to be labeled 'net hits'. How is that not simpler that Total Hits - Threshold?
Or I want the First Aid rules to match up with every other Threshold test.
Or I want the First Aid rules to match up with every other Threshold test.
Ok, at least I think I understand what you're saying now, even if I don't agree your way is simpler. In any case, my way has worked just fined at our table, and we'll continue to use the rules as is here. You're free to do whatever you want in your game, and lets leave it at that
I'll weigh in here real quick.
First, fortune, you missed the most important part in your quote...
First, fortune, you missed the most important part in your quote...
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
|
I've put it in orange.
As for now, I'm trying to think of how you would resolve a threshold 0 test. My inclination, is that the character makes a test, and as long as they don't critically glitch, they succeed. Why? Because to succeed at the test, they need at least 0 hits. So long as they don't critically glitch (and thusly fail spetactularly) they have met the threshold, and succeed said test. (If they did get some hits though, all those hits would be net hits, as they would all be over the threshold, and would represent the character having performed exceedingly well).
Now thats done with, lets move on to first aid. I do agree that it seems a bit wrong that you can succeed your first aid test (2 hits) and yet, not have anything done. (FriendoftheDork your example is wrong, as it is a different use to heal than it is to diagnose. Additionally diagnosing is a threshold GM determined depending on how hard it is to notice the wounds/ailments). Thusly, you can make your test, succeed with 2 hits, and not have anything happen as a result. I think thats utterly stupid. Especially since the heal spell has no such restriction, and heals boxes equal to hits on its test.
All in all, I'd say that the first aid rules are where the problem lies, not with the hits/net hits/success tests.
Fortune, net hits are rarely used on success tests. First aid is a rare example of them. Going back to the rules quote, I've colored in this part in cyan. All net hits mean in terms of success tests is that you did it better. Whether you get 1 hit or 10 hits on a threshold 1 test, you've succeeded, but the guy who got the 10 hits has done so extremely well.
Other than first aid, I can't think of any mechanics use of net hits with a success test.
I tried to find another example other than First Aid as well without success. I am inclined to believe that the First Aid description is wrong, and that it should read like any other Threshold test.
I have question related to the original thread.
can a mage with channeling use the skills of a spirit in place of his own. and can he use his own skills as well.
can a mage with channeling use the skills of a spirit in place of his own. and can he use his own skills as well.
a mage with channelling can use his own skills while channelling, or the spirit's skills while possessed but not channelling, but not both at any given time. as far as whether you can switch back and forth between channelling and not, i'm not entirely sure to be honest =P
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| As for now, I'm trying to think of how you would resolve a threshold 0 test. My inclination, is that the character makes a test, and as long as they don't critically glitch, they succeed. Why? Because to succeed at the test, they need at least 0 hits. So long as they don't critically glitch (and thusly fail spetactularly) they have met the threshold, and succeed said test. (If they did get some hits though, all those hits would be net hits, as they would all be over the threshold, and would represent the character having performed exceedingly well). Now thats done with, lets move on to first aid. I do agree that it seems a bit wrong that you can succeed your first aid test (2 hits) and yet, not have anything done. (FriendoftheDork your example is wrong, as it is a different use to heal than it is to diagnose. Additionally diagnosing is a threshold GM determined depending on how hard it is to notice the wounds/ailments). Thusly, you can make your test, succeed with 2 hits, and not have anything happen as a result. I think thats utterly stupid. Especially since the heal spell has no such restriction, and heals boxes equal to hits on its test. All in all, I'd say that the first aid rules are where the problem lies, not with the hits/net hits/success tests. |
Hmm, I think I like that interpretation. Sometimes not glitching is work in itself
Especially for those test with few dice and lots of penalties. And this way you CAN fail a threshold 0 test automatically if the penalties are equal to or higher than your dice pool. As for first aid, I was trying to find some excuse for the designers to word it that way
Some diagnosis could be as low threshold as 2, but as it says the GM sets the threshold when the skill is used for other things than healing. Still, I think the skill is well balanced. First aid is not supposed to be as good as magical healing, and instantly heal debilitating wounds (instantly as in 1-12 turns). It's supposed to help stabilize dying, and lessen the effect of wounds. Combined with magical healing it's very effective though, and because of good gear it's not unusal to get 6-7 total hits. It's probably better to increase threshold to 3 and let it heal 1 box of damage as default, with net hits healing more boxes. But I would still leave stabilization at threshold 2.
| QUOTE (raverbane) |
| I did some looking through the tread and couldn't find an answer for this question. What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel? Some would say just the movement rate of the vessel. Since it has been said in this thread that a vessel that doesn't have moving components can't move when possessed. (ie. the possessed gun) But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit? If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement? And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records... |
Still no one wants to take a stab at my pondering?
Well, at least one person responded earlier. You must have missed it in all the excitement.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| Ravorbane, I think I would use the spirit movement if nothing else was available, even for water and air spirits. |
Thanks FriendoftheDork for answers. It's pretty much what I thought, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't over abusing.
I'll give my 2¥ here for what's it worth. But I'm no authority and encourage anyone else to correct me
What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel?
A.) The vessels movement rate or spirits movement rate
But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit?
A.) Vessels with their own movement rate use that. Vessels without use the spirits. In the case of saving gas, sure use the spirits.
If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement?
A.) This one kind of depends on how you see flight. Is it a skill or a power. If it is is a Power, a spirit would be able to use that power. As your example an Air Spirit possessing a item/vehicle. I may impose a force * ?kg restriction on weight.
If it's an ability (or possibly power, I think I remember Franks posting about another power that wasn't applicable to possession, I believe it was reach), the spirit would be more capable of flying the vehicle with the skill and would be able to "glide" to conserve fuel.
Would really like someone else's opinion on that.
And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records...
A.) I don't see why not. In fact should be able to bring the runners entire team.
I'll give my 2¥ here for what's it worth. But I'm no authority and encourage anyone else to correct me
What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel?
A.) The vessels movement rate or spirits movement rate
But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit?
A.) Vessels with their own movement rate use that. Vessels without use the spirits. In the case of saving gas, sure use the spirits.
If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement?
A.) This one kind of depends on how you see flight. Is it a skill or a power. If it is is a Power, a spirit would be able to use that power. As your example an Air Spirit possessing a item/vehicle. I may impose a force * ?kg restriction on weight.
If it's an ability (or possibly power, I think I remember Franks posting about another power that wasn't applicable to possession, I believe it was reach), the spirit would be more capable of flying the vehicle with the skill and would be able to "glide" to conserve fuel.
Would really like someone else's opinion on that.
And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records...
A.) I don't see why not. In fact should be able to bring the runners entire team.
Another take(RAW, as it happens to be): Being possessed does not change the movement capability of the item. Any possible movement rate is increased by the spirits force, as with all applicable attributes. The movement capabilities of the spirit do not concern, only its force and powers. All powers are listed as such.
A possessed grocery cart can suddenly roll along at (force)meters/turn, an Eurocar Westwinds max. speed is increased by (force), as is its acceleration.
A possessed grocery cart can suddenly roll along at (force)meters/turn, an Eurocar Westwinds max. speed is increased by (force), as is its acceleration.
Much better answer Ryu. I was only taking a stab.
Was it ever decided what skill a spirit would roll for accident avoidance (i.e. drive). I suppose it's possible to teach a bound/ally spirit pilot *craft, but is that the only way?
Was it ever decided what skill a spirit would roll for accident avoidance (i.e. drive). I suppose it's possible to teach a bound/ally spirit pilot *craft, but is that the only way?
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Another take(RAW, as it happens to be): Being possessed does not change the movement capability of the item. Any possible movement rate is increased by the spirits force, as with all applicable attributes. The movement capabilities of the spirit do not concern, only its force and powers. All powers are listed as such. A possessed grocery cart can suddenly roll along at (force)meters/turn, an Eurocar Westwinds max. speed is increased by (force), as is its acceleration. |
I like this take too, good idea
Forgive me if I missed this somewhere in the 8 pages, but the FAQ at the top doesn't address this question.
Is it possible for a spirit to possess a mechanical device implanted in a person, but not the person himself? Say, for example, a cyber-arm.
I can foresee a difficulty in trying to possess something implanted and totally encased by the person, such as an artificial heart, as the spirit would have to pass through the living being to get at the device. Ooohhhh... but what if the spirit had possessed the device once before it had been implanted? Then, along the lines of a spirit materializing inside a ward because it had been there before, maybe the possession could go straight to the device. Oooooohhhh please-please-please!
I see both silly/fun opportunities here, as well as stealth/tricky ones. A cyber arm could grab a hold of a railing, and not let go. An artificial heart could stop at just the right moment, such as driving around a corner on a cliffside.
Peter
Is it possible for a spirit to possess a mechanical device implanted in a person, but not the person himself? Say, for example, a cyber-arm.
I can foresee a difficulty in trying to possess something implanted and totally encased by the person, such as an artificial heart, as the spirit would have to pass through the living being to get at the device. Ooohhhh... but what if the spirit had possessed the device once before it had been implanted? Then, along the lines of a spirit materializing inside a ward because it had been there before, maybe the possession could go straight to the device. Oooooohhhh please-please-please!
I see both silly/fun opportunities here, as well as stealth/tricky ones. A cyber arm could grab a hold of a railing, and not let go. An artificial heart could stop at just the right moment, such as driving around a corner on a cliffside.
Peter
No, it isn't. Cyberarms are paid for with essence and become part of said person.
Now... if you had a spare cyberhand in your skin pocket... then yes, it could just fine.
As far as actually getting to it, astral forms can pass through people just fine.
Now... if you had a spare cyberhand in your skin pocket... then yes, it could just fine.
As far as actually getting to it, astral forms can pass through people just fine.
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