Of course, the Essence thingy. Got it.

Peter

what would happen, if a force 4 spirit possessed someone, and that someones mage buddy cast mana-static force 4 at the possessed one?
spirit goes poof?

If I'm not mistaken, they'd need maximum successes at Force 4 to make it go poof.

If they got 4 hits, yes, spirit would poof.

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't a possessing spirit dual natured while possessing someone/thing? If so, then why can't the Astral Projecting Mage just cast the Mana Static himself? Wouldn't that you reclaim your body if it was hijacked by a spirit?



That of course brings me to my next question...

What happens if you are astral projecting, your body gets possessed and you fill your stun condition monitor? Where do you go?

See the following post for an argument that Mana Static could do killing Physical damage to the spirit and the host body. I'm really curious to see what people think.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=740409




Hmmm. You can't go home, so you fade away in the Astral Plane according to the time limit rules.

Peter

I disagree with this post. The text of mana static says it disrupts the spirit. To me, that is skipping any other pre-requisites for disruption (such as having its damage track filled) but causes the same effect.



I'd probably rule you zip back into your body while unconscious, and if you were to regain consciousness, you'd still not have control as you are being possessed.

I would really like your take to be true, but I am concerned about the categorical language in the description of Disruption. (eg. "...only disrupted if...") There would appear to be a contradiction in the rules. {GASP!}



That seems reasonable.

Peter

I disagree. The disruption rules are the blanket foundation for what causes disruption (suffering physical/stun damage enough so to fill the damage track) and what disruption is (returning to its native metaplane and not being able to return for X days).

The mana static spell causes background count. If background count causes a spirit's force to be 0 or less, it is disrupted. This is merely a different method to obtain disruption to a spirit.

Blanket rule: A causes B.
Extra rule: C causes B.

C does not have to cause A to cause B, it can cause B directly.

As a related question, the sidebar on page 103 of SM says Physical damage is shared between spirit and vessel. What about Stun damage? I can't find anything definitive about that kind of damage.

Would only the controlling mind be stunned? Remember, there is the Adept Power, Pain Relief, which uses massage and physiotherapy techniques to relieve Stun damage, and punches do Stun damage, so there is precedent that Stun damage affects body as well as mind.

I think the answer to this question would be a valuable addition to the FAQ.

Peter

Since the text only addresses Physical damage as being tracked as a single entity, then stun would not be. Thus, stun damage from things like punches would involve 2 seperate damage resistance tests, one for the body and its armor, and one for the spirit in the body and its armor/ItNW. While a stunbolt would be able to be targeted at either the body or the spirit.

Ok, but what about a Mana spell like Stunbolt, which is resisted by Willpower, not Body?

Peter

Manabolt does physical damage, so its tracked as a single entity. Also, the sidebar addresses that the spirits mental attributes are used. SM, 102.

Yes, Manabolt does Physical damage, but Stunbolt (still a Mana type spell) does Stun damage.

When the spirit is in control, then indeed its Mental Attributes are used. But are we sure that the impotent 'passenger' mind of the vessel is unharmed? And what about when the vessel has Channelling, and can take control whenever she wants to?

Peter

This is what I would dearly like to be the case, but how do we know that it is so?

I tend towards this interpretation because of a lack of evidence I've found for the link between minds as there is a link in body, but that old truism holds sway in my thinking, "lack of evidence is not evidence of lack."

Peter

The rules that change how things work only deal with physical damage being linked. As such, stun damage tracks remain seperate, and the attacking character would have to choose which character he is attacking. Since no text changes how stun damage is tracked, it works the same as if the spirit was materialized next to the person instead of possessing them.

Hi Folks,

i have one question about spirit possession and augmentations.

A Voodoo priest with the channeling metamagic let himself possess from a guardian spirit and become a dual being.

As far as my reading goes the priest gets the force of the spirit as a bonus to his phisical attributes, gets the force of the spirit for his mental attributes and keeps his special attributes (like magic and edge), right? Also he can use his own skills and knowledge. He can also tell the spirit he should use his spirit skills if the spirit has a higher skillrating in an particular skill (e.g. Pistols) that the priest himself.

And how ist the drain resistance test handled? Due to the channeling metamagic the priest can cast spells with his own magic value but how do he resist the drain? Which values do count for the test?

And how is this handled if the priest ask the spirit to cast a spell? Which values do you use (only the spirits own values or the merged values from the possession)?

What about if the priest has some augmentations? I could only find the rule that a spirit can't use cyberware effectively and profits only from passive ware (Bone Lacing come to mind). But what is if the priest has a suprathyroid gland or a synaptic accelerator 3? Get the dual being the bonus to attributes and the higher IP from the bioware stuff?

Does other bioware (Pheromones, Pain Editor and so on) count?

What do you think?

Thank you and best wishes,
Meschler

P.S.: Sometimes it sucks that english is not my nativ language and my school english is almost 20 years old

There is only one being, and that is a possessed metahuman.

The physical attributes are increased by (force), the mental attributes are that of the spirit (force again). You use the lower mental attibute of spirit and magician for resistance. (One could read the rule to use the higher attribute for everything else, but I wouldn´t.)

Drain: there is only one being, and that is a possessed metahuman. You use the combined stats, and at the time of separating ways, BOTH entities get to have the full accumulated damage.

Casting:There is only one being, and it can cast spells. Note that "natural spell" is a power, and using those spends a service.

Augmentation: The magician can still use (nearly) all implants, but the IPs of the spirit are used. Regarding the potential: Yes, subjecting the (+force) to augmented attribute caps is a damn fine idea. Think "Summoning a Force 9 Guardian spirit with Automatics, Concealment, and Natural Weapon".

I am apparently confused.
I had assumed that a channeling mage who is possessed would use his own mental attributes for any actions he undertakes (like drain resistance for spell casting, or charisma for persuading someone, ...) After all, he, the mage, is the one taking the action, not the spirit. The physical attributes are clearly the combined physical attributes in any case.

Joel

If the mage is Channelling, then any action she takes as the mage uses her mental stats. Resisting spells and powers still goes with the lower of the two entities' mental stats.

Peter

Channelling says that the magician gets to use his own skills, but in exchange has to resist with the lower mental attribute.

Where does the "uses own attributes" come from?

It doesn't come from the rules. The Channeling metamagic works eactly like posession, except a couple things. So you need to look at how posession works, and ratify that with the Channeling rules. You actually use all of the spirit's special attributes (edge, magic), mental attributes (lower when resisting damage [drain included]), and add their force onto your physical stats. Since you have Channeling, you get to use the skills of either the spirit or yourself, whichever you decide to.

EDIT: They might have gotten the "use own attributes" from an extrapolation (incorrectly so) from the drain clause.

I was basing my argument that the Channeling magician uses his own Mental attributes when using his own skills on my own idea of what is 'common sense'. Sometimes a dangerous practice, I know.

There actually isn't a drain clause. The closest the text comes is page 55 of Street Magic, "... the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental Attribute of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit's or the magician's). Spell and power resistance are not drain resistance. Otherwise the Mental Attributes of the spirit are used, as per normal possession rules, (p. 55, p. 101) By that default, Drain is resisted with the spirit's Mental attributes, no matter how they compare to the magician's.

This is a bit of a conundrum. It would appear from the arguments in the thread above and the actual text in the core books that a magician who Channels a spirit would resist drain from a Conjuring test using the spirit's Mental attributes, not his own. This despite the fact that spirits can't Conjure.

So, Uncle Zola with his Magic 8 should summon and be possessed by a F16 spirit before he tries to rebind and Invoke that F8 spirit. His CHA and WIL would be 16 each, adding to 32, plus Centering, Focus and Mentor bonuses! This makes Uncle Zola even scarier than he was.

Even crazier, Channel a spirit to use its Mental stats to bind itself, the very spirit possessing you!

EDIT: Whoa! It gets crazier still. The Special attributes are those of the spirit (p. 102). So the magician would cast spells with the Magic rating of the spirit. And have Edge equal to that of the spirit. Even if the GM, using the rule that you can't force a spirit to use Edge, says the magician can only spend his own Edge points, they still act AS IF he had the Edge of the spirit. Think for a moment back to that F16 spirit, giving a Magic rating of 16 to the magician, and allowing Uncle Zola to spend his 4 Edge points with the 'oomph' of 16 dice!

I don't know, but my 'common sense' assumption is looking better. Is there an official judgment we could get on this?

EDIT ( 2 ): The Dumpshock possession FAQ, point #2, says the Channeling mage's Special attributes override the spirit's special attributes. Which directly contradicts p. 55, p. 102 of SM. Hmm.

Peter

Hi Peter,

yes, that is the point that i dont understand too.

If the special attributes from the mage counts, what is with higher IP's the mage has? The phisical stat increas (+ Force) is clear, but how is the rulling with mental stats for drain? The mage uses the lower mental stats for resistance tests but what if he try to con his way in a building? Which stat does he use? I think the mental stats from the spirit (but arent sure about that). And the drain thing isnt clear too? Questions over questions. Maybe a developer could answer this?!

Best wishes,
Meschler

There is no backup provided (that I found), and the reasoning is a bit iffy. You would have a magic attribute to use with the abilities provided by the mage, no problem.

I would generally advise against balancing the rules with special consideration for the spot Uncle Zola is in. What a possessing force-16 spirit could do, the same spirit could do without the shoe - if it could materialise.

Ryu, I'm sorry, I don't understand. Could you explain?

Peter

The reason he provides for using the mages special attributes is questionable - the magician can cast spells with the magic rating of the possessed entity. There is also no rules reference provided.

Uncle Zola is pretty high-powered - I think the highest force rating to be seen at our table was 7 (on the player side). Spirits with double-digit force ratings are not really balanced at all.

Thanks, Ryu. I see what you are saying now.

Uncle Zola is a character I created for the 800 point thread in Community Projects. The OP wanted people to make the most out-there PCs they could to give him something to practice on for a high-powered campaign he hopes to publish.



So I decided to see what I could do with 800 points. There are several characters there that you might find enjoyable. Having spent more time on this project than I should have, I made four PCs: Uncle Zola, a Voodoo magician; Oro the Unstoppable, a machine-gun-toting primal force from Kazakhstan; Stardust, a cybered magician in a spacesuit; and Bongo Slade, mystic drummer. Other cool PCs there fill out the archetype range.

Peter

No problem, Peter. I´m recently getting the impression that I might have to improve on my explanations anyway.

(Having written one of the chars on that thread, I was of course aware that Uncle is special. I just wanted to submit that things look differently at other force ratings.)

Yes, I knew you were there, too, Ryu. My turn to be implicit rather than explicit. I just wanted to advertise the thread to get more readers.

Peter

Point #6 in the FAQ at the beginning of this thread suggests that the dual-natured being of a possessed individual would not be affected by the -2 modifier for seeing both astrally and materially at the same time. This brings up some questions for me:

1) Does a mage that is Channeling and controlling his own body at the moment still benefit from this freedom from distraction?

2) This dual-naturedness is a continuous state of being, and therefore always on. It doesn't have to be turned on as a service. What about other continuous powers of the spirit, specifically the Energy Aura power (SR4, p. 287; SR4A p. 294). With this power, the creature "continuously radiates an aura of damaging or negative energy." If a mage summons a fire spirit and has it possess him, does that mage, even while Channeling, radiate a fire aura?

Does he then set fire to a chair he sits in?

If he summons a fire spirit to possess the amulet he is wearing, does the amulet burn a hole in the mage's chest?

3) If the answer to the first part of #2 is yes, it is continuously on, then can it be turned off, perhaps with a service?

I hope so for comic value. And more importantly: does he burn off all his clothing?

Hmm... seems odd to me that the mage is astral perceiving automatically just because he is possessed. This mean that any being that was possessed would be able to astral perceive, even if they are mundane. It seems to me that the possessee should just be seeing however they normally would, and the possessor would be seeing dually.