Ah cool, thx.

I still think a conventional explosive earth-penetrating "earthquake" bomb is the way to go, like the T-12 I posted earlier.


-np

I can't find any stats for an autocannon, I must be thinking of SR2 or another game, so we'll say that the turrents are Heavy Machine Guns with APDS ammo and auto grenade launchers.

The turrets have radar so you'll have to sneak passed that. They're commanded to shoot anything on sight, so the rat costumes won't help.

Sneaking the ally spirit through the compound to the bunker would be tricky, the spirits and detection spells would spot it. I can think of only one way to do this. (Unless allies can take Aura Masking? (away from books right now))

Regarding using detection spells to find Mr. Magoo, he's behind a ward, so he'd get the ward bonus and Magical Guard power to resist the detection spell. Even when you get into the corridor, he's behind another ward, so you still can't detect him yet.

Ally spirit stays at home, and sustains the spells from there. What are the turrets exactly? Smart fireing platforms with HMGs on them? Fantastic. I explained how to get by the radar. Its an opposed test via sensor + clearsight vs infiltration + agility. Since its a critter/metahuman the turret gets -3. Since hes invisible (and radar uses ultrasound penalties) thats another -3. Total is -6 to the turret. The rats agility is 5, and infiltration will be a 4. Thats 9 vs 6 dice. Odds are very good the rat wins. Alternately, using shape earth to go down and around the compound, avoiding the turrets all together.

Regarding detection spells to find him, mana window works quite nicely, and spatial sense for knowing where to go with the shape earth spell. If you'd like, I'll work on stating him out sometime over this week.

Ah that's right, the spirit doesn't have to be close to sustain the spell. Ok your Ally stays home watching Three's Company while sustaining your spells.

As for the turrets, they're sitting right there staring down an empty hallway, they don't even blink. I don't think you can use stealth rolls in this case. Unless you have some way to make yourself invisible to radar, as soon as you peeked out of your rat hole, they'd see you and fire some shots at you.

If you tried burrowing directly under the building with your Shape Earth spell, the spirits would know you are there and would come down after you (remember they're tracking every living thing in the area using Detect Life). You'll either need to have a high Counterspelling to hide from the detection spells or have to fight off a few high force spirits while trying to sustain your Shape Earth spell. If one of the spirits popped your spell, the tunnel might cave in on you (although probably not since it's rat sized and you're probably hugging the foundation as a roof for your tunnel.

What exactly are the spirits orders?

Utilizing detect life, thats great, how do they know whats a guard, whats not, and so on. Besides, since this is in a residential area, it'd be easy to come in from below to begin with. Nearby sewers/water etc. Are their orders to attack everything they detect with detect life? Because I really hope theres no guards that venture outside the wards. And I also really hope theres absolutely not natural wildlife either. They'd be quite busy attacking and killing all the bugs, bettles, bees, worms, mice, squirrels, racoons, dogs, cats, etc in the area. Also, they'd have trouble getting to me through the earth, especially if I came in from the nearest underground tunnel.

Oh, and they can't pop the spell until they penetrate the masking.

As far as the turrets go, re-read your turret rules. Radar takes the same penalties for ultrasound (-3 for full darkness). If the rat is invisible, then the gun takes that -3 for only being able to use the radar sensor. Also, since the rat is a critter, the gun takes a -3 for trying to detect a critter with its sensors. Now, it has at most 6 dice left, and this is opposed by an infiltration + agility test by the character trying to hide from it.
(SR4, page 162 for all of this.)

I don't think radar is considered "sight", ultrasound isn't. Ultrasound is the classic invisibility-buster (no relation).

I already said in other posts that there are no sewer/gas/water pipes extending to or under the bunker.

The spirits have orders to kill anything big enough to be a shapechanged critter that tries to burrow under the bunker and to kill anything on the estate grounds that does not act like a normal critter (and yes they are smart and have the knowledge skills to know the difference).

Don't the runners get to make their preperations?

You're right, its not affected by invisibility. Its still an opposed test of its 12 -3(critter penalty) dice vs the rat mages agi + infiltration. Oh, and shadow would be able to get it down to -3 penalty for visibility (same as ultrasound in full darkness).

What's the score so far?

• Rotbart got 1 kill with Bloodzilla.
• Seraph Kast got 1 kill with his New and Improved Kamikaze Drones with magical and technomancer support.
• Tarantula got 1 kill with his Ritual Team of Doom.
• Toturi got 1 kill with his Preternaturally Proactive Professionalism.

Ravor was on the right track to a kill before he had to go back to work.

Tarantula is probably going to get another kill with his Gopher Team of Doom.

Lots of other great ideas and suggestions.

Who did I miss?

Woah woah woah. Kill anything not acting like a normal critter? Goodbye security team. They're not acting like critters, they're acting like metahumans! (Damn spirits being intelligent and not like agents.)

I didn't say to use the pipes to get to the bunker, but to use the closest one to start off underground. Tunneling from there over to the bunker with the various shape (various materials) spells. Also, hes not burrowing, the ground is merely moving out of his way, and back in the way.

Also, goodluck killing me once I'm in the ground. Pushing through is a 30minute interval test with meters being your threshold. So, seeing that the rat can move (hit) meters per combat turn. Considering to push through the earth is at base 15 minutes, the rat will be long hidden before the spirits catch up to him. In fact, the rat can probably tunnel in, kill magoo, and tunnel out, with the spirits in constant pursuit the whole time with no worries.

I'm not sure what security guards you're thinking of, but Mr. Magoo's security team would never be tunneling under the bunker. Only assassins would be tunneling under the bunker (and hapless animals that no one cares about).

While tunneling under the bunker, you're heading towards the bunker right? They start from the bunker and head towards you. You're going to collide eventually.

The earth is a dual natured barrier of undeterminable force. Thus, being underground puts me behind it for purposes of the detect life spell. If I walked up, saw the spirits, then tunneled, I'd agree with you, but, since I'm coming in from the nearest tunnel access, then I'd say you don't detect me due to the earth.

As far as the guards dieing... "kill anything on the estate grounds that does not act like a normal critter." No metahumans act like a critter unless they're using a con skill. Thus, the spirits would be too busy killing everyone on the grounds, including magoo. Death via his own fubared magical security, huzzah!

Obviously the spirits have orders to not kill Mr. Magoo or others based on certain criteria. In a different scenario where you had more time, you could simply assense Mr. Magoo when you got the chance, Mask your aura to match his, use Physical Mask and pwn the place.

I'm not sure about the earth blocking the detection spells. I couldn't find anything that says one way or the other. Were you able to find a page number?

114-115. Under "The living earth". "Pushing through the astral Earth is similar to pressing through an astral barrier (p. 186, SR4) except that the Earth is an exceptionally thick barrier and does not possess a singular Force rating." Emphasis mine.

Ok that'll work. We'll have backtrack a little because you wouldn't have been able to find Mr. Magoo either.

Assuming you used Mana Window on the outer ward and spotted the turrets before you stuck your head in so they could fire on you, you'd have to tunnel through the outer wall and push through the outer ward and cast Mana Window again and spot Mr. Magoo wandering around the inner sanctum.

You would go back down into your rat hole to burrow under the inner sanctum but the spirits would be on you because they know you pushed through the outer ward and would chase you through your tunnel. The tunnel collapsing behind you would work in your favor though because they'd have trouble following you. They're big so they can't fit in your little tunnel astrally and they don't have the spells to tunnel after you physically.

You should be able to tunnel underneath Mr. Magoo's inner sanctum and pop up right in the middle of it. You'd have to fight a bunch of high force spirits in there, but that's just dice rolling at that point.

I'd call this a kill. That's 2 kills for you Tarantula.

I realized that you could actually sneak passed the turrets if you had a Physical Mask spell to look like Mr. Magoo. Normally I would have all the agents/pilots/etc. demand a password/response sequence even if someone looks like the boss. But in Mr. Magoo's mental state, that would be suicide.
ED-209: "Second attempt: please state password."
Mr. Magoo: "Oh my."
ED-209: "Incorrect password, I am authorized to use deadly force."

Therefore I'd have to put possession spirits in the turrets to counter that approach so they could check his aura sig.

If I tweaked the bunker to include spirits that have Shape Earth spells, put possessing spirits in the turrets, and put an outer perimeter under the bunker (a real dungeon, ha!), I wonder if that would make your job substantially more difficult?

Can anyone tell me why a team of professional shadowrunners would have to go through all these contortions and extremes?

Seriously, a group of six professional runners, with a good mix of physical, magical and matrix support (assumption: TM's are not too likely due to karma limits) and some sharing shouldn't have to either send massive armies of drones, tonnes of explosives or be dedicated, single spell, ritual assassins/shape changing goons that only succeed if the target is a 1 body wimp.

Assuming that legwork on the entire complex turns up remarkably little information on the bunker itself (plausible due to time limits, though the presence/general location of the bunker should be a given with any real legwork.

No matter how paranoid Mr. Magoo is, his house/yard still needs servicing, and its unlikely, with his logic one, that in the short timeframe he has that he managed to cancel every scheduled service, be it landscaping or fixing a leaky roof, even food delivery. As security for the house itself will undoubtedly be actually MORE lax, now that everyone is focused on the bunker, most of the house security itself can be bypassed by the simple expedient of standard infiltration techniques. En route to the site (and for several hours prior to the actual infiltration) the matrix specialists (and backup presumably from the physical specialists, who by this point should be capable, if not really sterling, E-war specs themselves) should be snooping out the automated defences, working on an onion skin theory. Peel back one layer at a time, looking for everything. Ditto drone flybys with sensors to pick up power signatures that don't have corresponding wireless signals (as Mr. Magoo is old enough not to rely on purely wireless).

Once past the grounds infiltrate the house and neutralize on site security, cutting access to the outside and utterly sealing the bunker. More extreme, cut grid power to the house physically (power can't be wireless) and wait for backup generators to come online. Kill the backup generators with targeted drone 'warheads', or cut the hard lines from the generators. Expect that the bunker has it's own generators inside it as well, though we'll ignore the techical problems. Even if the bunker generators supply power to the house, those lines can be cut as well. In short order the house will be defenseless and unable to call for help. Note that jammers will be employed to limit chances of a stray call for help during the isolation phase itself, likewise attacks will be restricted to silenced weapons unless ineffective, while the mages and their host of spirits will deal with any security spirits that poke their heads outside the bunker.. this is ideal in that it weakens the forces that must be dealt with inside the bunker itself.

If possible, of course, any hard lines to and from the bunker would be found and cut as well, though the existance of such things would be a security breach that could be exploited. Thinking that an earth spirit could do recon on the underground site without having to breach any wards, and subsequently destroy any hard lines. Its location naturally isolates it from the wireless, as does the presence of heavy duty jamming.

Without security to stop the team, they would be able to, via sensors, spells/spirits and just physical looking be able to find the entry to the bunker. Assumption: Its trapped and protected. One mage and one matrix geek would spend the assault on overwatch from astra/matrix space for signs of defenders stirring. Drones would apply thermite to the doors/trip defenses. Presuming a shaft (elevator?) down to the bunker itself, also presumbed to be trapped, and that the bottom is sealed as solidly as the rest of the bunker. Cut any elevator cables, send flying drones down to look for defenses (automated guns, cameras, explosive devices, sensors (laser nets?)) and also apply thermite to bottom doors. Note that at this point the team will have a firm idea of where the ward ends (mind that the wards must be applied to physical structures, thus the walls are 'known'... one way or another).

At some point we would, of course, discover the hallways with sentry guns, presuppose they exist outside of entry shaft. Standard assault techniques at this point, plenty of grenades and attack drones. Since having two sets of sentry guns able to fire at each other idiotic, this limit how much clearing is necessary. However, any 'uncleared' sentry guns will have IFF transponders disabled to prevent security from endrunning us. Once inside the wards, the mages and their spirits are responsible for eliminating enemy mages/spirits primarily, which includes counterspelling their mundane counterpoints (note, physical specialists include spirit killing adepts, so if our intelligence suggests stronger mage security than this would be mandatory. Also, as Magoo's security is not primarily wireless, then the matrix specialists could double as, and would double as, lower ranked street sams in addition to being responsible for the drones. However, at a minimum, on team member would be fully technical (moderate to light augmentation and competence with guns/melee no more). Iballs and other drones would be used en masse to find the exact layout of the bunker, along with what ever defenses exist. As security will undoubtedly mobilize during the assualt phase the team would rely on defensive positions until they had drawn out all defenders they could, and had intell on the rest. They have time to spare, and as the bunker means they can now go 'weapons free' without worry of outside intervention, they are in good shape. Shaped charges would be used to cut a path to the target and bypass existing defenses, as well as a 'shock and awe' technique. Note that heavy equipment/explosives are feasable due to the nature of the initial intruision AND the fact that they have time to bring in additional equipment once the mansion is locked down.

Note: standard equipment includes assault rifles and shotguns, solid body armor (up to and including security armor), rebreathers/gas masks, a heavy supply of cheap, disposable drones, lots of grenades (including gas grenades). Assume rating 6 commlinks and programs (hacking and drone specific) on every character (even the non-hacking mages). Mages focus on astral support, particularly counterspelling and conjuring, rather than offensive, though they could be expected to handle that as well, for example, if the enemy mages drop, they could then attempt to kill Magoo themselves unopposed. Note: this is not exhaustive, I don't have the time nor energy to work up actual teams and actual equipment. Standard standbyes, like cyberware and sensory augs are assumed rather than explicit.

Magoo's edge doesn't really factor in, no attempt on him would be made until his various defenses were neutralized, per Assassination SOPs... kill the bodyguards first. These guys aren't snipers, they don't have the luxury of 'one shot, one kill' thinking. They can afford to be... in fact, they must be, thurough if they hope to succeed and survive to get paid.

Here is what I would do... I'd make a face style physad with killing hands and moderate close combat skills. He would use a hacker contact to give him a rating 6 SIN and military ID that would portray him as a military consultant specializing in VIP protection. He would walk right up to the bunker, flash his ID and talk his way in claiming to be a representative of the military arriving in advance of a special forces team to extract Mr. Magoo. He is there to examine potential exit stratagies and determine how best to keep Mr Magoo safe. He'll spend an hour or two poking around the bunker acting like he belongs there until the guards have warmed up to him. He'll then ask to speak to Mr. Magoo and explain how he feels it is best to proceed. As soon as he's in range he snaps his neck.

So the answer is a bunker-busting warhead.
Steal one, bust the bunker.

What, a run stealing stuff from/infiltrating the military is too hard? Sure, but it's a lot easier than a run on a bunker protected by GM fiat.

Buster: I suspect that you didn't read much of my actual post. Reckless, at no point, figured into it.

If you disagree with some of my assumptions, that is your call, of course. You asked how I, as a Shadowrunner, would assault a highly paranoid old man in a deep underground bunker with 24 hours to do it in. I told you. I didn't make up some wonkey super borked methodology (ritual kill teams with only one spell....)

My apologies if I somehow missed one of the rules of the game was that however you did it could in no way resemble an actual shadowrun team doing an actual shadowrun, and could only be accomplished by breaking the ruleset.

It seems I wasted my time, rather than yours...

For the most part, Buster, I've agreed with you on what would and wouldn't work and I've shaken my head at the naysayers and all those crying "GM Fiat", however, I feel I must respectfully disagree in reference to Spike's plan. While I think it has more of a Special Forces Black Assets Hit Squad feel to it than what I usually think of as shadowrunning, I can see this is what he thinks a wetwork squad would do and I think it would work. I mean, I realize this man is old, senile, and has near unlimited funds, but you never say what force or how many spirits. I mean, granted, given enough spirits, especially dragon quality force 10-15 spirits with paid off karma for the year and a day service, then yes it is impervious to him running it like he did, but for any realistic number there is a way around them. I haven't read the first post since right after you started this thread so forgive me if I did in fact miss something, but it seems like you are vehemently opposed to any sort of brute force options. I mean Frank had to step in to authenticate Bloodzilla and now this with Spike. I've played in runs where uber-military style completely thorough and ruthless tactics were used. They work, they work WELL. Unless there is an, what in my opinion would amount to ridiculous, amount of spirits of quite high forces then I see absolutely no reason this wouldn't work. Not to mention if there are enough spirits of a high enough force to completely defeat this no questions asked then I don't see how the Kamikaze Drones of Doom got through.

Anyway, very interesting thread, I like to see how you all think compared to me. Keep up the good work everyone.


Chris

Who will become Blood-Lactus, as soon as he finishes Earth.

Seriously Buster, I am really sorry if I offended you. If what I said came off as a personal attack of some sort I did not intend it that way. I truly meant it when I said this was an interesting thread and I honestly don't think that about most of the challenge threads. I realize you are probably tired of being yelled at, and I didn't mean to come off that way, as I mentioned in a thread I just posted on, I've had a very tiring day and am basically just stream of consciousness typing at this point. I just wanted to say that I really did think you were giving Spike's tactics the short shrift, which on looking back may be because you have heard most of them before I just thought his was formed in a much more complete manner and deserved true consideration, which you may have given it, it just did not appear that way to me. Anyway, I didn't mean Frank had to drop a colorated post or anything(Is he even a mod here?) I just thought it was him who dropped the finalized concept of Bloodzilla being RAW if silly and hopefully errata'd soon. If it was someone else, then credit to them. Just saying you were resistant to the idea, though if I didn't have such a firm background in "The Game That Must Not Be Named" and it's MANY loopholes for ultimate power, I would probably be resistant as well. I'm just used to breaking down grammar into it's most finite form and ignoring intent in the face of RAW (A habit I am happily breaking, but it is there nonetheless). So, to me the break in the rules there was relatively obvious, thinking about it more now I can see how someone who tries to play in a more balanced and realistic environment might interpret it differently. Again, not trying to step on anyone's toes just was trying to interject that I thought Spike really deserved careful consideration.


Sorry again,
Chris

Using masking to fool wards (remember, this is a super masking focused initiate) he won't set off any alerts. All he has to do is track the link from the ward to the mage who made it, and mask his aura to look like that mage. This is doubly effective if the mage also happened to summon the spirits, as now the spirits won't attack him (since spirits only have astral perception.) And he can waltz in through wards without worry.

Spirits aren't on alert, because I didn't set off an alarm on the ward. Show up in his sanctum, and cast a manabolt/whatever spell to kill him, and then retreat back into the earth. The spirits in the room either have to waste time materializing, or running over to the peep hole I make, then smashing through the material to get to me, by which point, magoo is dead, and my rat is away. Take a sidetrip through the earth (to keep the spirits busy) and by the time I'm away and home safe, the spirits don't have any shot in hell at catching me. Also, as I've said a few times, the turrets have major issues in actually spotting and hitting the rat. Therefore, I could easily have gone in through and ran into the turrets, avoided detection (most likely) or avoided getting hit (also very likely).

Regardless, that is another kill. I'd put up my troll adept bow slinger for frontal assault. Make sure he has the IPs to keep pwning spirits as they materialize, and he's all set. Get him a sam or two also, and a counterspeller or two, to avoid spirit powers owning him, and they'd be able to brute force it.

Just need to see his aura, so thats where the mana window comes in. Manawindow, spot his aura, mask to it, and waltz in through the ward.