There was something on this on tv the other night-talking about meteors and comets striking the earth. It made Tunguska look like it was in the southern part of Siberia. It looked close to Mongolia just north of Lake Baikal. Assuming that is accurate and not the tv producers just assuming any old part of siberia works, then this would be way off for Perry to see it in the arctic.

Tesla's aim was a little off. Give the man a break, he was only bouncing an invisible heat beam off an invisible, curved 'corner' of the atmosphere. I'd like to see you call 'invisible heat beam, top of the earth' and actually make the shot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070918/sc_af...ruhealthoffbeat

I thought I would add this rather than start a new thread, but this is a modern news story about a meteor strike in the Andes. There is a large crater and locals and first responders are getting sick.

Do the trees sway even in the absence of wind?

~J

Just an obersvation: an on-topic one, at that.

Let us assume that, if Ehran's date of 3113 B.C. as the end of the Fourth World and the beginning of the Fifth is accurate.

We know for a fact that the end of the Fifth World and the beginning of the Sixth is 2011 A.D..

Therefore, each mana cycle period should theoretically be around 5124 years long, with peaks (subsisting of high mana, Scourge-friendly conditions) and troughs (unknown; perhaps little or no mana to go around?) every 2562 years. Obviously, this is theoretical as how much the sustained mana cycle mentioned in Earthdawn has thrown things off if it has at all.

But assuming this is wholly accurate for the sake of argument, let us also refer to page 144 of Shadows of Asia:

The problem, and only problem, this might needanother thread, ios that you assume that mana goes in waves, slowly building to a peak and then slowly fading until it's gone. BUT assume just for the sake of argument that it doesn't fade away as slowly as it grows, but instead reaches a critical mass just at the height, and then is gone in a rush. That might explain cataclysmic myths/eras/losses, like Atlantis.

Ehran the Scribe suggested the sine wave theory, and it's generally agreed to hold true for Earthdawn (mostly). The duration and timing of the Ages is a matter of debate, however.

But who was there to actually see Earthdawn at its peak? Everyone was hiding in caerns!

The Horrors?

Didn't the mana level stay artifically high during an otherwise-low point druring the Earthdawn era? That indicates that the mana waves can be altered, and aren't necessaritly constant.

It didn't drop as expected during the Scourge, but the reason for it (and it staying at the same level since then) was never revealed.

It did peak and drop during the Scourge, but the mana level stopped at a certain point above pre-Scourge magical levels. It is assumed this is an artificial state.

Firstly, was there a way to accurately measure magic levels? I know most of the Kaers had something to measure when it was below a certain level, but I don't know how accurate that was either.

Secondly, so even though tracking the magic level showed by all evidence it was sine wave, Ehran assumed that it was and that the actual fluctuations had been artificially tampered with? Sounds to me like a scholar who refuses to admit he's wrong

I'm not very familiar with Earthdawn, so i have a question : the 2nd age was the age of Dragons from what i read, and i always assumed the 3rd age was some kind of prehistoric age. What is it really supposed to be since you guys seem to imply that IEs could have been running around during that period ?
The IEs where alive before the scourge, but where they alive during the 3rd age ?

Regarding mesuring the mana levels, i suppose its "easy" with assensing you can determine the level of mana ebbs and flows, so i suppose that a low mana level means the equivament of a high background count or just like leaving the manaspere around earth.

By the way, thanks LordHaHa for bringing new light to this Tunguska thing

Some of the IE's were born in the 4th Age, but I'm pretty sure that a couple originally come from the 2nd.

Assensing would be very difficult, mana levels generally change too slowly to be noticed over short periods of time (with the exception of spikes); in Earthdawn they had a magical device that qas roughly the equivalent of an old-fashioned stationary barometer.

Based on LorfHaHa's timeline ( which is arguable )

Then

2nd world end point begining of the 3rd age is near the end of the Upper Paleolithic Period, think Stone Age Homo Sapiens running around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic


BTW the 1st world, which is when The Dark One supposedly made Dragons etc, would have also falen in this period ( 50,000 BC to 11,000 BC ).

Based on the chart the end of the 1st world and the beginning of the Age of Dragons would have been around 18,000 BC, whic coincides with the Last Ice Age ( 18,000 BC - 15,000 BC ). Which I found interesting.

Tunuska Launch would have been during the Mesolithic period. This would have seen Humans just starting to move from Hunter/gatherer groups to farming. It would early in the period, prior to the desovrerry of pottery ( 9000 BC )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10%2C000_BC

So if the IEs are up to anything they do not much of anything in the way of civilization to help them...

It's a funny thing, history, because the only things that come down to us are those that endure. A civilization of clay tablets and clay bricks will be remembered again after five thousand years, while a civilization of paper books and panoceanic trade on wooden ships could be forgotten in less than a hundred. There is still plenty of room in prehistory for great civilizations to be lost and found.

I agree with "Son" that there are certain aspects of the timeline that could be questioned. However, for the sake of argument and (more so) for the lack of availible evidence I left other possible variables (mana spikes, possible fluctuations in the mana sine) out. Even so, there are random events that occur in the sine - the sustained mana level in ED and the Horror-Bridge spike in SR are the most notable examples. Anything is indeed possible in this situation.

Assuming that this is at all accurate, the inference is that whatever entity or construct they launched into space (along with the piece of terrain containing it) was powerful enough to be a concern in a trough of the mana cycle but weak enough to tackle via Harlequin and (potentially) other powerful ED-era actors. Extending this line of thinking even further, what power does this force command even at the moderate mana saturation levels of the mid-21st Century? More importantly, what are its intentions?

So, lets assume again that the spirit in Yakut was the "thing" emprisoned and launched in space. (because after all it seems the more plausible theory).
What we know or at least what is supposed :
- An object was launched in space during the middle of the third age.
- IEs where involved in the launch, at least they know about it.
- It crashed in the beginning of the 20th century, aprox a 100 years before the awakening.
- The Spirit in Yakut (Verniya) seized power once a group of Shamans called for its help.
- The Spirit controls the shapeshiters.

All the Telsa theory is interesting, but since there is absolutely nothing in sourcebooks indicating such a theory, i think we should put it aside for now.

So, we have a few questions to answer to unsolve the puzzle :
- What is the nature of Verniya ?
Speculations could be a powerfull free spirit, an Horror, a Dragon.
If it was an Horror, i doubt Harlequin would just make sarcastic comments on the subject, or at least would take action as well as a few powerfull SR figures.
If it was a Dragon, then it would be a great, but in that case what does the "wild child" do so close to its territory ? An Adult Dragon is in now ay powerfull enought to challenge the power of a Great, and seeing how he deals with intruders he really seems independant.
The third possibility would be the powerfull free spirit. The problem with this theory is that a free spirit would have a hard time surviving the third age with the low level of mana, and if it had been launched into space it would certainly have died since it would have suffered from the total absence of mana up there, since a free spirit is made 100% of mana.
So, those three theories are imho not plausible, unless we get more information it seems we need to find a new theory.

- How did it survived up to the awakening ?
Hard question. Since we dont know what its nature is, we can't know what it needs to survive.
A creature of flesh could survive during the downcycle, but a spirit (or a horror) ? I would say it took its time, hiding and preparing its moves.

Even if your questions are crucial LordHaHa, i doubt we could answer them before knowing those basic facts.

Now, on a second thought, it could be something very very dangerous, and very very powerfull.
After all, every major player was warned about what was happening in Aztlan but none took action except Harlequin and Dunkezhal.
Imho, the powerplayers of SR are so focused on their little wars and powermongering that they would notice (or just be willing to notice) a massive horror invasion only once it would be at their doorsteps.
Technically, that spirit could be a major horror that potentially could dominate the world, but until it'd threaten the IEs or Greats direct interests, they would take no steps to stop it, prefering that someone else does it and takes the first blows.

On a side note, could it be Deinerastas or is it reported dead with absolute certitude ?

Verjigorm liked to make cocoons…

~J

One other note. If the hieght of the sourge in the 4rth age is around 5600 BC ( with the start being 5800 BC ) that coincides with these developments in the real world:


c. 5800 BC — The Hassuna Period in Mesopotamia <t. 5500 BC>, with the earliest version of stamp-seals. (Roux 1980)
c. 5760 BC — The volcano Puy-de-Dôme in France. erupts.
c. 5700 BC — Cataclysmic volcanic explosion of 12,000-foot high Mount Mazama creates Oregon's Crater Lake. (NatGeo 1998 May) (4401 BC in NatGeo1986-9)
c. 5600 BC — According to the Black Sea deluge theory, the Black Sea floods with salt water. Some 3000 cubic miles (12,500 km³) of salt water is added, significantly expanding it and transforming it from a fresh-water landlocked lake into a salt water sea.
c. 5600 BC — Beginning of the desertification of North Africa, which ultimately lead to the creation of the Sahara desert. It's possible this process pushed some natives into migrating to the region of the Nile in the east, thereby laying the groundwork for the rise of Egyptian civilization.
c. 5600 BC — The Red Paint People become established in the region from present-day Labrador to New York state.
5509 BC — The Byzantine calendar dates creation to 1 September of this year.

And by far the MOST important item:

c. 6000 BC–5000 BC — Wine is created for the first time in Persia.

However the bible is based off of oral traditions, including quite a few from the Akkhadians and Babylonians. It seems not only possible but likely that, like the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark, the tower of Babel is originally someone else's story, a someone else who may have been present for the launching of something into space.

To come back to SR sourcebooks, i've read again the passage regarding Tunguska, 2 things have been omitted :
- Some shadowposter mentions the longitude of lake baykal is the exact opposite of Crater Lake in Tir.
- Regarding the Wild Child, the dragon that has his territory there, some posts by Harlequin and Hestaby are disturbing. Hestaby says that its a pitty he survived (i suppose she mentions surviving the 5th age), while Harlequin says "If he's there than "You-Know-Who" must be here too". Hestaby replies something along these lines : "that's not a rejoicing thought".

So, while these are not major break-through, its still two fact we've ignored.
First, that Wild Child clearly seems to be a threat, at least in the eyes of Harlequin and Hestaby, or maybe not him, but the "one" that follows him.
While there is no direct link between the spirit and the dragon, it seems too much to be a coincidence : two "major" threats in the same area means there is necessarely something between them.

The poster mentioning Crater Lake, might be a lead to the origin of the threat. While it shard to see a clear tie between the Tir and that problem, i've seen Aegis (author of the Tir Tairngire book) mentioning that Aithne Oakforest operates in the area (actualy its in Pommeranya, but it's mentioned in some part of the Russian section of the book, cant remember the exact circumstances).

Tisoz, your theory is really interesting, I guess that prison might have been something like that. It would have been really cruel. That leads back to the major question : Who would desserve such a treatment ???

I do not have a globe handy, but I do not believe that Lake Biakal/Crater Lake line. they are both in the northern hemisphere, and I do not think they are 180 degrees apart.

I checked Google earth, the southern end of Lake Baikal lines up with Canada, well north of the US border.

I'm talking about Longitude (so the east-west axis).
I've checked and crater lake is -120° while lake Baikal is like 107°
So its not exact opposites.
I doubt there is any link, just a false lead.