i not saying that it doesnt involve sight, i just dont think it involves sight as we know it, ya know, its MAGICAL...

so magical, i might just cast a magic missile at it....

i agree that it's magical, but i don't agree that means that the rules for it differ significantly from the rules for regular vision, except where specifically noted in the rules.

but the significant difference is that it specificlly says that it's not linked to physical sense. Also that is is Psychic! that seems pretty different than the rest of the rules.

it can be, and is, significantly different in lots and lots and lots of ways, but still be similar on certain points--points which have the net effect of making astral perception vulnerable to obstruction by blindfolds.

so, is it also blocked by blinking? or just closing your eye lids? or what about being in total darkness?

Especially total darkness, cuz ya know, that totally ruins normal* vision, just like a blindfold, but yet it clears states that it's a bright, vibrant world, which to me, could th erotically shine through a blindfold.

and also, to me, the astral is less a plane seen, but more a plane experienced. you close your eyes and the emotions of your surroundings pervade you. the air around you echoes in pain, the ground vibrates in harmony, etc. i just dont see the eyes are king viewpoint, go listen to a song called clint eastwood by the gorilla's... it kinda puts my persepective on the astral in pretty good terms.

i'm not sure how to explain this any more clearly. astral perception is blocked by obstructions. blinking and closing your eyelids may count as obstructions, depending on your GM. darkness does not, because the line between your eyes and your target--aka, line of sight--is not obstructed by anything. there's no astral shadow standing between you and the target, preventing you from seeing it.

your mental picture of the astral plane is nice. i'm glad it suits you. but the book does not describe anything like that. i'm not saying you can't use that paradigm, i'm not saying it's wrong. i've played a raccoon shaman before whose primary astral sense was smell--she didn't see auras, she sniffed them. what i didn't do, and what you're trying to do, is to use that non-canon fluff paradigm to redefine how the rules work.

I haven’t been able to bring myself to catch up on this whole thread, but the current argument is if a blindfold blocks Astral Perception right?

ok, time to bring out the dictionary.com. i know this word is clearly stated in the book. highlights mine

On top of the localizing the single point of origin of the sense there is another issue.

When I’m wearing clothes and someone casts invisibility on me, why do the clothes turn invisible also? The spell isn’t an area spell it’s a single target spell, yet the clothes I have on are some how a part of me when I’m cast on.

Likewise is I were wearing a full leather jumpsuit including a motorcycle helmet and you couldn’t see any bit of my skin you could still cast on me, yet I am completely obscured by my outfit. You could even still see my Aura and assense me…

There is clearly a precedent in SR for things like clothing (including blindfolds) behaving strangely with respect to LOS and Astral Perception…

Dem. The clothes turn invisible also because the spell is an aura surrounding your person for the duration it is sustained.

Full leather + motorcycle helmet you can still be cast on, because you can still be seen. In this example, the mage would have to not be astrally perceiving (since you're not astrally active). Thusly, your point is moot. If they were perceiving, they could see your aura, and still assense you, they can't cast on you since you're not astrally active.

Now, if you were perceiving, and they were perceiving. Your astral form would be your idealized beliefs and emotions. Not a mirror of exactly what you are. You would be utterly blind, and they could still assense your aura, but not cast a mana spell at you on the astral plane.

Why would you be blind? Because your brain is completely covered. Same reason a magemask blinds a mage whos perceiving. Blindfolds don't cover it up, and thusly don't blind a mage astrally perceiving.

Actually mfb... SR4, 182, "Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral
plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is the primary sense used in the astral plane; it shows auras, allowing magicians to examine living creatures in the physical world as well as creatures who live on the astral plane."
Emphasis mine. It is its OWN sense. Seperate from the 5 normal senses. Its a psychic sense at that. From the definition of the word psychic that means it pertains to the mind. AKA the brain. What problem do you have with the brain being the sensing organ for astral perception instead of the eyes?

Cover isn't treated differently. There aren't rules for "sticking your head out" and for "sticking your hand out". Just for if you can see it or not. Since most peoples POV is in their head, that happens to be usually what you're dealing with. If someone gets a cybereye in their hand, guess what, regular cover rules apply, (plus the special rules for having an eye in a weird place). But the can stick one hand out to see, and the other hand out to shoot. Using the basic cover rules!

Aura's aren't organs at all, brains are, and brains are/should be the organ for a PSYCHIC sense.

Just because its described in terms of the 5 senses doesn't change the fact that it is a SINGLE sense of its own. It just happens to encompass aspects of all the other senses.

Yes, blindfold that cover your sensing organ do impose physical cover. If I put a blindfold down my shirt, or around my hand, or on my foot, around my forehead, or anywhere else, it imposes no physical visibility modifier. Only if it is blocking the sensing organ. It works the same with astral perception. If you have a large blindfold that can completely encompass the brain, then by all means, your mage is astrally blind. Just because it is covering up his eyes, doesn't by default make him blind because it makes someone physically seeing blind.

requiring a full hood to bock astral perception is determining cover differently. same as if you decided your astral POV were in your hand or your foot.

So, requiring a blindfold and a glove to block physical LOS to a mage with a cybereye in his hand is determing cover differently too?

mfb, I didn't say astral perception. I said physical normal perception. For purposes of casting spells on the physical plane. A mage can have a cybereye in his hand, and can't a physical spell even while blindfolded (through the hand-eye). But according to you, this breaks the normal rules of how cover works! Being blindfolded should disable his access to cast through his cybereye just because blindfolded is a total cover modifier! Thats according to you. I say that he can still see from the eye, because it isn't impeded by the blindfold, and can cast as normal using penalties from the single eye. Likewise, a blindfold doesn't block out his brain, and thusly, he can still perceive things while blindfolded, albeit, I'd assign a -4 partial cover modifier for having the blindfold on.

that's bad logic. a blindfold is only full cover if it's a full obstruction; i never claimed otherwise. if it's pushed up a bit, or doesn't cover the gap created by your nose (so that you can tip your head back and look down to see out from under the blindfold), then it's not full cover. same deal with a cybereye in your hand. i suppose that means that putting a cybereye in your hand adds to your astral POV the same way it does to your physical POV.

But mfb, your aura has a shadow in it FROM the cybereye. It isn't tied to the physical senses at all. It is a psychic sense. That tells you the sensing organ is the mind. The same way saying sight is a visual sense tells you the sensing organ is an eye. Claiming otherwise is absurd. You're asserting that just because you see light with your eyes then you astrally perceive with where your eyes are. The same as claiming because you see light with your eyes, you can hear where your eyes are. Or because you hear sound with your ears you can see where your ears are.

You can't. You astrally perceive with your brain.

Just poked my head back in, and it seems like everyone's been busy. Nine pages of people restating the same arguments over and over again without convincing anyone else but themselves... Still, I think it indicates that there's enough wiggle room on either end that it can reasonably be up to GM discretion unless/until it's addressed in a future FAQ. As long as everybody knows the GM's interpretation up front, and it's applied consistently.

My big issue was just that I didn't want characters able to peek around corners astrally with their fingertips (when they didn't have a fingertip cybereye) without exposing their heads, and most (though not all) people seem to believe that astral perception is either centered in the head or more specifically in the eyes.

From a practical perspective, it doesn't really matter if the whole head or just the eyes need to be covered to block perception. It's just as easy for the bad guys to put a sack over your head as it is to tie a blindfold around it. And after 60 years of magic I can assume that all the security guards know what works and what doesn't.

MFB, no one- well not many people- is arguing that astral sight negates physical obstruction. What people ARE saying is that certain physical objects in certain circumstances aren't applicable to both astral and physical sight. The general consensus here on the opposing side seems to be that you see astrally with your brain. Well, I've got something to say about that in a minute, but we'll get to it then. IF you see with your brain and not with your eyes then a blindfold is no longer a complete obstruction. It still blocks a good 40% of your viewing surface though so some hefty penalties will apply nonetheless. I'm pretty sure just about everyone agrees that physical objects translate to astral shadows which provide cover just as they would in the physical world. Which applies to that, if someone had some modification that allowed them 360 degree sight from their brain, then a blindfold wouldn't blind them completely either.


A point I would like to make is that I doubt you see astrally with your brain. I mean, no doubt it does in fact play a role in astral perception, I mean it plays a role in EVERY sense. It is the processor for all the data the other organs collect. What I propose is that your AURA is your astrally perceiving organ. If you think about it I think it makes alot of sense. For one, your aura comes with you when you project, it is listed as often outshining clothing, which would explain why two perceiving magicians don't automatically have good cover from each others spells via clothes. Not to pick on Tarantula, but if what he was saying about leathers and a motorcycle helmet is correct then every mage would wander around with ONLY their face showing so if they had to perceive then a very small portion of then would be visible so automatic good cover.

As to sticking your fingertips around a corner to see with astral perception well, I don't know about you, but if I stuck something over my eyes that covered like 97-99% of them I am pretty damn sure I would be able to see well. I could still see something, but not well. If your aura is a single sense .... organ for lack of a better term... then the same thing would apply, it extends past clothing, but if most of it is behind a wall, then most of it is behind a wall. I mean, once you start getting 20-30% capacity then you've got mostly unobstructed vision, so you know, a hand and forearm, or maybe more. If you don't believe me, cover all but 10-30% of your eyes and see if you can't still read, it is difficult, but not overly so. -1 maybe -2.

Anyway, that is my two on this issue, believe me or not, I'll be willing to explain/argue or whatever, but know now if you ever play in a game I host then this is the way it works unless there is an official update telling me otherwise.


Chris

PS: I think it fixes alot of the problems and fits seamlessly into the RAW.

SR has penalties associated with having a field of vision greater than normal. Augmentation makes that pretty clear when it talks about eyebands and the like, a 360 degree FOV results in a -2 penalty while in motion.

Astral perception results in a -2 penalty for a completely different purpose.

As it is, in my games, blindfolding a mage will block astral perception. Either because their astral POV is covered by the blindfold or because a blindfold is designed to stop people from seeing, and the astral metaphor carries over. I don't particularly care which.

Among other things, the Magemask deters Summoning, as well as Projection itself.

I still don't understand your justification for why a mage who has a cybereye that cost essence in his hand can perceive through it while blindfolded.
You claim that astral/physical points of view have to be the same in order to use the same cover modifiers. You also claim that this doesn't link astral and physical sight at all, but obviously, if having a cybereye installed alters your astral perception abilities, you are linking them.

Could you elaborate on your reasoning for allowing a cybereye to offer alternate points of view for astral perception?

Tarantula, man, let it go huh? Me, I agree that the rules kinda support Mfb's view, but I personally prefer (for stylistic and theoretical reasons) the aura-as-sensory-organ view.

But canon on the other hand supports the brain-as-sensory-organ view, since in Night's Pawns (the only previous edition blindfoldish reference I can think of or find) they nullified Krista Fried's casting abilities by putting a bag or pillowcase over her head. Thus, that's the view I'm going with.

And with that, I'm outta this one.

Yeah, zippers are way harder than knots. I think the fact that magemask are usually accesorized with containment manacles more makes it hard to take them off.

Conversely, they're just that much harder to put on as well.

That's the whole point of the Mage Mask. It is a specifically designed item to serve just that very purpose. Handcuffs and a blindfold would work in much the same manner, although the blindfold would not provide the additional benefits (as listed above) that a Magemask would.

A magemask on its own is no harder to take off than a blindfold on its own was my point. The additional benefits? Of what? A big distraction?

Basically, that makes a magemask a blindfold with headphones. I've still yet to hear a convincing reason for why it should be a hood instead of just a blindfold.

Because it is much easier to slip out of a blindfold than it is a hood that is fitted and locked in place. Only in your description is it just held with a zipper. It comes with manacles for a reason. Even a manacled person can slip loose of most blindfolds, but a hood specifically made for that purpose is a different matter. Add to that the fact that it is easier to fit a hood with the (albeit strangely magical) white noise generator than it to do the same with a blindfold.

It doesn't come with manacles... I said its usually put with manacles. MITS supports this stating "The magemask is used in conjunction with mundane restraining devices such as handcuffs and even straitjackets." pg 12.

I suppose other things a magemask has over a blindfold is the gag tube, so your prisoner can't be a smartass with you either. Also, the description isn't that its hard to take off, or even has a zipper, its just a plastic hood with a gagtube and white noise generator.

Re-reading it, I'd argue that it'd be easier to slip out of a magemask than a blindfold, since a blindfold will be tied tight to you head, and can't be easily reached by your shoulders to nudge off. A magemask you could use the gag-tube to gain some control on it, as well as the bottom having to fit over your head means it can fit back over coming off too. They aren't fitted and locked. Just a plastic hood.

Another note: magemasks aren't meant for long-term control, just short term.

In the SHORT-TERM containment of magically active people. Long term is drugs/simsense loops. I.E. I see a magemask only being used when they actually need to interact with the mage. Such as for interviews. Otherwise, the mage is getting stuck in a simsense loop or getting a nice shot. So no, I don't think a magemask is all that hard to pull off, considering its standard practice to use it with handcuffs and/or straitjackets.

Just popping back up to note this from Daemonseed Elite's blog:

That makes me feel better about myself.



Chris