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hyzmarca
This still doesn't answer the question of what happens if you blindfold something like a human form weretiger, whose astral head doesn't remotely line up with its physical head. It doesn't deal with possessed chairs either. Where exactly are a chair's eyes normally located?
mfb
i think i'd rule that a shapeshifter is affected by a blindfold the same way as any other humanoid. say the astral form floats around so that their heads match up, or something. i'm not going to even try to call that canon, though. if anyone's managed to slog through those Nyx Smith stories, there might be something in there.

a chair... again, not canon, but i'd anthropomorphize it, pick features or shapes on the chair and assign them as eyes. or maybe i wouldn't even try to assign a definite ruling on it; if i need the possessed chair to be able to see from a certain portion of its chairnatomy, it will be able to, and if i don't it won't be able to. trying to blindfold a possessed chair is a rare enough occurrence that even a detailed-rule fanatic like me is willing to let it slip by.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
if anyone's managed to slog through those Nyx Smith stories, there might be something in there.

Sorry. I did once, but I've managed to block most of it out, filing it under "Traumatic experience". Maybe the Forever Drug instead?
Red
I think I agree with the metaphorical, or symbolic approach. A blindfold blocks astral sight because when worn it blocks physical sight. Yet it might allow astral sound just fine. The opposite for earplugs. I think that is simpler than working out points of origin for psychic senses.
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Sorry. I did once, but I've managed to block most of it out, filing it under "Traumatic experience".

Want a refresher course? biggrin.gif
Tarantula
As far as the mage-mask goes, coming from pg12 MitS... you get a +6 penalty to any mental action taken (including trying to use magic) this is from a white noise generator. It goes on to say "Actions that a mage normally performs automatically, like astral projection, require a Willpower (10) Test to accomplish." So, yes, it cuts off all physical LOS the mage could have. You still could astrally perceive (if you can succeed the willpower (10) test) and then try to cast at someone (with the +6TN penalty). Its a very very very longshot, but could work. (Good thing there wasn't edge/longshot tests back with magemasks).
Trigger
I have to disagree with the fact that astral sight aligns with physical sight, due to a couple of specific paragraphs and sentences in the BBB.

QUOTE (BBB Pg. 182)
Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character's physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within.  Likewise, deaf magicians can "hear" in astral space.


QUOTE (BBB Pg. 181)
....Things that exist only on the physical plane can be seen and heard from the astral, albeit with blurred features and indistinct sound - emotional content registers far more strongly than exact details.


By the wording of these two parts of the Astral World section, I have taken it to be saying that the astral is perceived in mostly the emotional spectrum, which is translated into 'visual' and 'audible' feelings, much like data in the Matrix is translated into sense feelings via simsense. What the mage is experiencing isn't inputed through the normal sense receptors, only with the mind, which then translates it a medium that the mage can understand.
mfb
then you have no basis at all for deciding what blocks it, if anything. the POV of your astral perception could be your right foot, the back of your neck, it could be a spot three feet to the left of your hip. anything and everything is pure conjecture, if you toss out the idea of basing everything off the vision metaphor except where noted different.

QUOTE (Tarantula)
So, yes, it cuts off all physical LOS the mage could have. You still could astrally perceive (if you can succeed the willpower (10) test) and then try to cast at someone (with the +6TN penalty). Its a very very very longshot, but could work. (Good thing there wasn't edge/longshot tests back with magemasks).

it doesn't cut off physical LOS--it cuts off LOS, period. i would read that as including LOS in astral perception, since it doesn't specify. you can still astrally percieve, while wearing a magemask, if you make that Will (10) test--but all you'll see is the inside of the mask.
Trigger
I am saying that a blindfold blocks physical sight, and if you are astrally perceiving (not projecting, that is a completely different ballgame) then that blindfold is still only blocking your physical sight, not your astral. Sure, you wouldn't be able to physically see your target, but you are dual-natured while perceiving, so you are only blinded on one part, but you will still be able to tell that there is an aura there and thus able to target said aura. In the astral you do not see with your eyes, you have no eyes, you see with your aura. You do not hear with your ears, you have no ears, you hear with your aura.
mfb
again, i've never seen anything in the rules that suggests you sense with your aura. your aura is not your astral form--it's just part of your astral form.
Trigger
Then what is the rest of your astral form then? If not your aura, then what else is there? I mean, it is nothing physical, because it is astral....so what is it then?
Ol' Scratch
I simply stand by it not being a traditional sense at all, let alone one linked to any single physical location. It's like saying that you use your eyes to hear, or your ears to smell.
mfb
it's you. it's your astral body, whatever energy astral bodies are comprised of. whatever they are, it's clearly stated in the text that auras and astral forms are distinct:
QUOTE (SR4 page 182)
Astral forms are more colorful and brighter than auras.


again, Funk, that leaves you completely without any point of reference for what can and cannot block astral perception. that makes it really hard to make a reasonable game ruling.
Trigger
Alright, be that as it may, it is still not physical. When you perceive, you are both your astral form and your physical, you are perceiving through both, hence why doing anything involving strictly your physical senses comes with a negative dice pool, because the two do not align with each other. If you were 'seeing' through the same sensory inputs, then the things you were observing would align with each other, but they don't.
mfb
that's not in the rules. you get a -2 modifier for using astral perception yes, but in 4th ed it doesn't say why. in previous editions, as i recall, it was because the astral plane distracted you. regardless, the alignment thing has no basis in the rules or the fluff.
Trigger
Hmmm....I am going to think more on this and I will have a response for you....tomorrow. I have been working all day and I desperately need sleep....so, yeah....tomorrow.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mfb)
again, Funk, that leaves you completely without any point of reference for what can and cannot block astral perception. that makes it really hard to make a reasonable game ruling.

How so? That brick wall is still stopping you from "seeing" through it unless you get around it. If you need a point of reference "your mind," and thus your entire head, works just fine as far as peeking around corners and whatnot goes. It could just as easily be your heart, too, as its often considered the seat of your emotions by lots of philosophies and beliefs.

I think part of the problem is that you're still sold that a blindfold or hood should blind you astrally even though there's very little actual evidence of this occuring. As others have pointed out and corrected, even a Mage Mask didn't stop you from perceiving so much as it gave you penalties due to being distracted.
mfb
the magemask "blocks LOS". it doesn't specify physical LOS, so unless i'm missing something it should also block astral LOS.
Fortune
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It could just as easily be your heart, too, as its often considered the seat of your emotions by lots of philosophies and beliefs.

The symbolism of 'vision' could also be as applicable though.
Ol' Scratch
Magemasks block "line of sight." Not "prevents the magician from assensing with astral perception." Those are and have always been two completely separate and distinct things. I don't recall once ever hearing the term "astral line of sight" in any edition of the game.

Not that it mattered in SR3 with a magemask anyway. In SR3, you had to be on the same plane in order to cast a spell at someone, and assensing them was acceptable for fulfilling the LOS requirement against astral opponents. Again, two separate things. The magemask prevents a magician from casting a LOS spell on anyone who couldn't defend themselves. Those who were astral or dual-natured had the ability to defend themselves just fine, especially since the magician had a +6 TN penalty on the few things they could do to them. And that was the main point of a magemask, to let mundanes have a defense and physical restraint against them in law enforcement.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 24 2007, 03:46 PM)
It could just as easily be your heart, too, as its often considered the seat of your emotions by lots of philosophies and beliefs.

The symbolism of 'vision' could also be as applicable though.

Touched on that a while ago. Normal sight, the third eye, the mind's eye, the heart... all are perfectly acceptable "points of origin." But none of them really matters as a blindfold shouldn't stop you anymore than a hat or a t-shirt would. Astral perception doesn't rely on a physical organ; it's a completely magical sense.
mfb
by that logic, there's nothing stopping you from assensing the aura of anyone, anywhere, no matter where you are in relation to them or what obstructions there are to your astral senses. you could assense Lofwyr all day long from anywhere on the planet. besides, assensing and perceiving are two different things. even if you decide that assensing isn't blocked by astrally opaque obstructions, those opaque obstructions will still stop you from perceiving anything beyond them.
Ol' Scratch
How on earth are you making that leap? Just because you're not using your fucking eyes to "see" on the astral plane doesn't mean you're spontaneously manifesting your point of view anywhere in the universe. That's just ridiculous. "OMFG, I don't use my eyes to hear with, so I can hear what Lowfyr is saying anywhere in the world!!!" That's the kind of retarded comment you just made.
TonkaTuff
Off-hand, I suggest we just call the thread. Without an official stance, this debate isn't going to be resolved. The fundamental assumptions of both sides can be applied to the somewhat ambiguous text to prove their version to their satisfaction, if no one else's. And in any event, it doesn't matter what any of us think the right answer is - we're all free to play the game however the hell we want to anyway.

If you want unidirectional astral perception, fine. It radiates in a cone out of the front of your characters' heads, and you treat perception just like sight with a different light source (distance, perspective, etc. applies). If you want omnidirectional astral perception, cool. It's a roughly-spherical sensory field radiating out of your entire body and LOS is determined by whether there are astral shadows or other features interposed between your perceptual locus and your intended target large enough or clustered densely enough to obscure their astral form.
mfb
well, you're separating what you can assense from what you can astrally see. that's what LOS is, man. i mean, these are your words:
QUOTE
Magemasks block "line of sight." Not "prevents the magician from assensing with astral perception."

you're saying LOS--which is, literally, what you can see--is not required for assensing. in other words, you don't need to see something to assense it. ergo, you can assense any astral presence in existence. no other limits are ever mentioned or implied, except maybe wards and such.
darthmord
QUOTE
by that logic, there's nothing stopping you from assensing the aura of anyone, anywhere, no matter where you are in relation to them or what obstructions there are to your astral senses. you could assense Lofwyr all day long from anywhere on the planet. besides, assensing and perceiving are two different things. even if you decide that assensing isn't blocked by astrally opaque obstructions, those opaque obstructions will still stop you from perceiving anything beyond them.

mfb, Assensing is using a psychic sense, not a physical one. As such a physical sense obstruction should not interfere with the psychic sense.

So, Lofwyr could be in his lair and I could be Seattle. I can't assense him unless I'm near enough to him either in the flesh or in Astral Space (via projection). I could possibly cast Clairvoyance to see him but that might be dangerous / problematic for me.

A wall in physical space will stop you from seeing / sensing someone in Astral Space. Why? It's part of the terrain and it's inherent to its nature. It's the same reason why I can't see through the Earth.

A blindfold isn't part of the terrain. Sure, blocking sight (specifically visible light within a given frequency range) is part of the blindfold's nature, but you can't make the claim that a small physical sense obstruction that is put on a person can block a psychic sense.

You are in effect claiming that a blindfold grants as much aura coverage protection (as a jarhead has inside its cyborg suit) to everyone that would otherwise be in the LOS of the mage.

I think that's rather excessive for a simple piece of cloth.
Apathy
Here's a related question:
Several people have suggested that a mage might be able to astrally percieve from any part of his body. Does this mean that he can peek around corners with the tip of his finger? Can he shoot while blindfolded with just a -2 modifier instead of the -6 for blind fire?
Tarantula
Can a blind-from-birth mage do the same?
mfb
QUOTE (darthmod)
You are in effect claiming that a blindfold grants as much aura coverage protection (as a jarhead has inside its cyborg suit) to everyone that would otherwise be in the LOS of the mage.

I think that's rather excessive for a simple piece of cloth.

people keep saying "it's just a piece of cloth". so what? a curtain made of that same material is more than enough to block astral perception. why is the fact that the obstruction happens to be closer to the mage's face an issue?

here's the biggest thing i don't understand: allowing a blindfold to block astral perception is clean and neat. there are no horrible loose ends flapping around. saying that a blindfold doesn't block astral perception leaves huge questions unanswered. if a curtain blocks astral perception but a blindfold made from that curtain doesn't, how do you determine the cut-off point between astral opacity and astral transparency? is it proximity--if you put your face up to a brick wall, does it suddenly count as a "blindfold" and become transparent? if you take the cloth blindfold and magically float it an inch or so away from the mage's eyes, does it become a curtain and partially block the mage's vision? is an inch too close? what about half an inch? how close is too close?
ThreeGee
You astrally percieve with your brain rather than your eyes. Given the emotional content of the astral world, the brain can be the only organ capable of interacting with it.
Apathy
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Can a blind-from-birth mage do the same?

The blind mage can shoot, but can he see to shoot around corners when just his hand has LOS with the target?

I think this has boiled down to 2 points:
  • Can a mage acheive astral perception (and therefore satisfy LOS restrictions) from any part of their body (finger, back of head, toe, etc), or does it require access to a specific part of the body (eye area, face, head, heart, etc)? As a follow-up question, if all of the body can astrally percieve, are there any perception penalties for blocking LOS to part of the body but not all of the body (i.e. do I percieve just as well by sticking my pinky through a hole in the wall as I would if my whole body was on the target side of the wall? If the percentage of the body is significant, should a mage who has most of his body covered have perception penalized compared to the Gaia-worshiping 'hippy-chick' who likes to go 'sky-clad'?)
  • Do mages percieve from the edges of their aura (which extend an inch or more past their physical body (and therefore would eliminate LOS blockage from glasses, clothes, etc.) or do they percieve from the edge of their physical prescence? Can a mage get right up against a half inch sheet of steel and percieve through it?
Dashifen
QUOTE ("p. 114 Street Magic")
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.


Doesn't this clear up the blindfold problem? Unless it's transparent or mirrored, it's going to be opaque and, thus, can prevent targeting.
Ol' Scratch
If its an obstacle between you (whatever "you" is) and what you're "viewing," yes. But again the main point of the thread is that astral perception is not necessarily based on the point of view of your eyes. So how exactly is that blindfold going to stop you from "seeing" things when your "eyes" are located on your forehead or you're a shapeshifter or drake with an astral head closer to your crotch?
Dashifen
I suppose that could be the case. I guess I didn't follow that problem. I personally think Astral Vision is controlled by the eyes perceiving a different medium than light. You want to use Astral Touch -- go head, but you're going to reach out and touch something with a limb or brush up against it in astral space some how. YMMV.
darthmord
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (darthmord)
You are in effect claiming that a blindfold grants as much aura coverage protection (as a jarhead has inside its cyborg suit) to everyone that would otherwise be in the LOS of the mage.

I think that's rather excessive for a simple piece of cloth.

people keep saying "it's just a piece of cloth". so what? a curtain made of that same material is more than enough to block astral perception. why is the fact that the obstruction happens to be closer to the mage's face an issue?


It's not a problem if you are only looking at physical LOS. A blindfold happily blocks *PHYSICAL* LOS. I have no problems with that and it's logically consistent.

QUOTE
here's the biggest thing i don't understand: allowing a blindfold to block astral perception is clean and neat.


It may be that way you based on how *you* understand Astral Perception / Projection. It's not for those of us who apply other details that are pertinent to Astral Space.

QUOTE
there are no horrible loose ends flapping around.


But there are...

QUOTE
saying that a blindfold doesn't block astral perception leaves huge questions unanswered.


How so? The blindfold is a mere piece of cloth whose presence is in the physical plane. On the Astral, it *might* (if sufficiently thick enough) count as a shadow that prevents being able to perceive an aura. But that would only work if you count Astral "Vision" as coming from the eyes, rather than your spirit / soul.

QUOTE
if a curtain blocks astral perception but a blindfold made from that curtain doesn't, how do you determine the cut-off point between astral opacity and astral transparency?


How do I determine opacity / transparency? Simple. Is the item in question part of the environment and not made to be transparent? If the answer is yes to both, then you can't perceive through it on the Astral. That's why walls are obstructions on the Astral while clear windows are not.

QUOTE
is it proximity--if you put your face up to a brick wall, does it suddenly count as a "blindfold" and become transparent?


No, because a wall isn't made to be transparent (typically).

QUOTE
if you take the cloth blindfold and magically float it an inch or so away from the mage's eyes, does it become a curtain and partially block the mage's vision?


It could. If someone held up a sheet of cardboard in front of your mage, you may not be able to see the person on the other side of the cardboard.

QUOTE
is an inch too close? what about half an inch? how close is too close?


Do a quick test for me. Go find a t-shirt. Doesn't matter what color. Hold it up against your face. Then go look out a window while holding it to your face.

You'll find that you can actually see through the t-shirt. In fact, depending on how sensitive your eyes are and the material the shirt if made of, you'll be able to see through it through several layers of the t-shirt.

But that is neither here nor there. Astral senses / perception is based on the spirit, not the physical senses of the mage. Otherwise, Blind mages couldn't cast spells on other people except by using touch. Yet Blind mages **CAN** use Astral Perception to cast spells at range... despite being functionally the same as a blindfolded mage on the Physical Plane.

You can't have one and disallow the other.
darthmord
QUOTE (Dashifen)
QUOTE ("p. 114 Street Magic")
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.


Doesn't this clear up the blindfold problem? Unless it's transparent or mirrored, it's going to be opaque and, thus, can prevent targeting.

Not really. That passage implies that a blind mage can't use Astral Perception to cast spells.

Assume the mage is blind for whatever reason. The retinas are detached from the eyeball, the optic nerves are cut, the eyes are covered in cataracts, etc.

Those are physical obstructions to being able to see with the eyes. Under the quoted text from SM, the obstructions listed above would prevent the mage from being able to see using Astral Perception.

Yet it has been stated clearly that Blind Mages *can* cast spells using Astral Perception.

It can't be both ways. Either Blind / Blinded Mages can cast at range using Astral Perception or they can't.
Buster
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 24 2007, 12:07 PM)
QUOTE ("p. 114 Street Magic")
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.


Doesn't this clear up the blindfold problem? Unless it's transparent or mirrored, it's going to be opaque and, thus, can prevent targeting.

No, that quote says that even if the object is transparent in the real world, it will be an opaque shadow in the astral. Blindfolds and sunglasses block astral perception.

Personally, I don't like transparent objects blocking astral sight and would houserule that out, but there it is.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 24 2007, 11:37 AM)
Blindfolds and sunglasses block astral perception.

Once again, how?

Astral perception is one sense. One. One that gets described in no less than three different senses because we can't comprehend that sense. So why aren't the ears the central focus of astral perception? Why not the entirity of your skin? (And how does a cotton t-shirt stop you from feeling someone poking you with a stick anyway?)

There's no such thing as "astral sight." No such thing as "astral hearing." No such thing as "astral touch." It's all astral perception. A single psychic sense. Which is exactly why blind or deaf magicians can still use astral perception. Even those who never developed eyes or ears or otherwise have any reason whatsoever to consider those parts of their body relevant to their senses.
Trigger
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 24 2007, 12:07 PM)
QUOTE ("p. 114 Street Magic")
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.


Doesn't this clear up the blindfold problem? Unless it's transparent or mirrored, it's going to be opaque and, thus, can prevent targeting.

No, that quote says that even if the object is transparent in the real world, it will be an opaque shadow in the astral. Blindfolds and sunglasses block astral perception.

Personally, I don't like transparent objects blocking astral sight and would houserule that out, but there it is.

Blindfold and sunglasses would only block astral percpetion if astral percpetion was specifically a sensory function of the eyes. But it isn't, Perception itself isn't just a visual function, Visual is only one of the five senses. And in astral you have six senses: Visual, Audio, Tactile, Taste, Scent, and Emotional. None of which are actually physically processed with their corresponding physical sensory input, since astral forms are not physical, but simply energy. Take for instance a Buddhist Spirit of Fire in the astral form of a mandala, a geommetric design. It has no form of what could be considered a input recpetor for sensations and yet it can still Perceive everything on the astral.
Apathy
QUOTE (darthmord)
Assume the mage is blind for whatever reason. The retinas are detached from the eyeball, the optic nerves are cut, the eyes are covered in cataracts, etc.

Those are physical obstructions to being able to see with the eyes. Under the quoted text from SM, the obstructions listed above would prevent the mage from being able to see using Astral Perception.

Yet it has been stated clearly that Blind Mages *can* cast spells using Astral Perception.

It can't be both ways. Either Blind / Blinded Mages can cast at range using Astral Perception or they can't.

I don't believe that the RAW ever draws any parallels between being blind, and having obstructions between you and your target.

I think that everyone agrees that [regardless of a mage's ability to see physically] a mage can't see through a brick wall or opaque curtain that completely obstructs LOS between any point on my body and any piece of the target.

But if I stick the tip of my finger around the edge of the wall, can I now see the target? I would rule 'no', but it seems like some of you are saying that I could.
hyzmarca
You would get a modifier for attacking from cover and your enemies would be able to shoot at or cast spells at you with cover penalties.
darthmord
hyzmarca, I believe there are modifiers for cover that are used in spellcasting tests in terms of whether or not you are able to successfully cast on the target.

Which has a certain level of logical consistency. The more of your target(s) you can see, the better you will perform the desired action upon them in terms of shooting / targeting.
mfb
QUOTE (darthmod)
How so? The blindfold is a mere piece of cloth whose presence is in the physical plane. On the Astral, it *might* (if sufficiently thick enough) count as a shadow that prevents being able to perceive an aura. But that would only work if you count Astral "Vision" as coming from the eyes, rather than your spirit / soul.

astral shadows are not transparent. they are as opaque as the physical objects that cast them. they are colorless and indistinct, but nowhere does it state that the astral shadow of any opaque object is in any way transparent.

QUOTE (Tarantula)
And in astral you have six senses: Visual, Audio, Tactile, Taste, Scent, and Emotional.

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
There's no such thing as "astral sight." No such thing as "astral hearing." No such thing as "astral touch." It's all astral perception. A single psychic sense. Which is exactly why blind or deaf magicians can still use astral perception. Even those who never developed eyes or ears or otherwise have any reason whatsoever to consider those parts of their body relevant to their senses.

an astrally-perceiving mage (or even a fully astral mage) cannot, according to the rules, pinpoint the location of a something on the other side of a brick wall. the mage can't assense something on the other side of a brick wall, even if that something is making noise that he can astrally hear. if the mage tried to shoot the something with a pistol, he would take the same penalties as a sighted, non-perceiving person (with the addition of a penalty for perceiving). if the mage tried to cast a spell on the something, he would fail because he doesn't have LOS. for all intents and purposes, the mage is unable to see the something, with all the rules penalties that carries. i'm not saying you're wrong about astral perception being a single sense, but in the rules astral sight, hearing, and so on are treated as seperate senses.

as far as the astral POV being seated somewhere other than the eyes... the biggest argument i see in favor of that basically boils down to "dude, it could be." i've seen non-canon fluff reasons why it could be, and i've seen a few logical issues with it being seated in the eyes--but those problems are either relatively easy to resolve within the rules (for instance, a shapeshifter/drake's astral form simply has to have its eyes roughly match up with the flesh eyes) or completely unanswerable within the rules (there simply haven't been enough possessed chairs in SR to formulate a reasonable concept of where the chair's POV is located).

as i see it, it requires less extrapolation and creative interpretation for the astral POV to be in the eyes. there are fewer sticky situations where multiple possible rulings are all valid (eg, does a strip of cloth suspended an inch in front of your face count as an obstruction). plus, eye POV has weak support in the (admittedly still-disputed) fact that magemasks obstruct astral sight. magemask obstruction at least kills the idea that you can astrally perceive from any portion of your anatomy.
augurer
QUOTE
astral shadows are not transparent. they are as opaque as the physical objects that cast them. they are colorless and indistinct, but nowhere does it state that the astral shadow of any opaque object is in any way transparent.

Right, they impair astral perception, but do not block it. How translucent the object is in the "real" world determines to what extent the object impairs astral perception.
QUOTE
as i see it, it requires less extrapolation and creative interpretation for the astral POV to be in the eyes. there are fewer sticky situations where multiple possible rulings are all valid (eg, does a strip of cloth suspended an inch in front of your face count as an obstruction).

How could there be multiple valid rulings to the question of a suspended strip of cloth count as an obstruction? Unless the piece of cloth is obscuring a majority of the object you are attempting to perceive, there is no question at all. It works the same as asking the question about a crate or wall or street lamp. If the object is big enough for someone to hide behind it, then it'll block astral perception. Astral perception is about assensing auras; if you can see a portion of the object, you can assense that portion of it on the astral plane. A strip of cloth isn't likely to have a noticable effect.
QUOTE
plus, eye POV has weak support in the (admittedly still-disputed) fact that magemasks obstruct astral sight. magemask obstruction at least kills the idea that you can astrally perceive from any portion of your anatomy.

It does no such thing. The info on mage masks say nothing about astral perception at all. Line of Sight strictly refers to the physical sense in every sourcebook. The mage mask has nothing to say about astral perception at all, other than inferring a penalty for all "magical" activities performed while wearing one.
Trigger
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Tarantula)
And in astral you have six senses: Visual, Audio, Tactile, Taste, Scent, and Emotional.

If you are going to quote, at least use my name nyahnyah.gif

And for that purpose, I was saying that Perception, physically, revolves around the five sense inputs, while astral revolves around six sense input, although they are not sensory inputs in the pysical sense, but instead feelings transmitted by the mage's feeling of the astral world into senses that he can understand.

Also, I never once supported or stated the idea that I mage could target someone on the other side of a brick wall using astral perception. The wall has an astral shadow, it blocks astral LOS, you can't cast through it. The wall's astral shadow stops you from making any sort of connection with the target's astral form. You need to be able to draw a straight line from your astral form to their astral form for you to be able to cast a direct spell at them, simple as that.
mfb
QUOTE (augurer)
Right, they impair astral perception, but do not block it. How translucent the object is in the "real" world determines to what extent the object impairs astral perception.

the astral shadow of a brick wall will impair astral perception to the same degree that the real brick wall will impair physical perception. that's the salient point here.

QUOTE (augurer)
How could there be multiple valid rulings to the question of a suspended strip of cloth count as an obstruction? Unless the piece of cloth is obscuring a majority of the object you are attempting to perceive, there is no question at all. It works the same as asking the question about a crate or wall or street lamp. If the object is big enough for someone to hide behind it, then it'll block astral perception. Astral perception is about assensing auras; if you can see a portion of the object, you can assense that portion of it on the astral plane. A strip of cloth isn't likely to have a noticable effect.

that's only true if you accept that that same strip of cloth obstructs astral perception whether it's tied around your face or hung in front of you. if it obstructs astral perception when it's hung in front of you, but not when it's tied around your face, then you have to answer the question of exactly what point the cloth stops being an obstruction. half an inch away? a quarter? all but touching? touching but untied? the rules don't say, which is why there are multiple valid rulings.

QUOTE (augurer)
It does no such thing. The info on mage masks say nothing about astral perception at all. Line of Sight strictly refers to the physical sense in every sourcebook. The mage mask has nothing to say about astral perception at all, other than inferring a penalty for all "magical" activities performed while wearing one.

untrue. while astrally perceiving, you still need line of sight to cast spells. line of sight is, literally, what you can see. if your LOS is cut off, you can't see. a magemask prevents you from assensing, or spotting an astral presence, for the same reason that a brick wall prevents you from doing so.
Tarantula
If I conjure an earth spirit, and you tie a blindfold on it, can it suddenly not see at all?
mfb
depends on whether or not you tie it around the seat of its astral POV. couldn't even begin to guess where that might be on an elemental.
NightmareX
In regards to the main questions of this thread:

1) IMO touch is enough to target a LOS spell with. Basically LOS < Touch < Personal (ie Touch restricted to self only).

2) In the case of blindfolds vs astral perception, aside from the magemask and the episode with Krista Fried in Night's Pawns I can't recall anything in previous canon to indicate that blindfold > perception. Thus, based on the fact that astral perception is a psychic sense and based on the described workings of a magemask, I'm gonna have to come down on the astral perception > blindfold side of things.

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Astral perception isn't real (warning: incoming hippie alert!), so it's pretty damn hard to describe things with a sense you can't even comprehend.

Sorry, the resident hippie isn't gonna argue that way today (couldn't resist) wink.gif But in answer to the question - simple, use your imagination.

QUOTE (mfb)
if anyone's managed to slog through those Nyx Smith stories, there might be something in there.

Done that, it's never mentioned IIRC.

QUOTE (TonkaTuff)
Off-hand, I suggest we just call the thread. Without an official stance, this debate isn't going to be resolved.

This is Dumpshock, nothing ever gets resolved - what else is new?

QUOTE (Apathy)
Here's a related question:
Several people have suggested that a mage might be able to astrally percieve from any part of his body. Does this mean that he can peek around corners with the tip of his finger? Can he shoot while blindfolded with just a -2 modifier instead of the -6 for blind fire?

While I find it conceptually distasteful, I'd has to say yes. Although as a GM I'd slap him with a cover modifier to his shooting/casting dice pool and call it lack of concentration (or something like that).

QUOTE (Buster)
No, that quote says that even if the object is transparent in the real world, it will be an opaque shadow in the astral.  Blindfolds and sunglasses block astral perception.

Personally, I don't like transparent objects blocking astral sight and would houserule that out, but there it is.

Impair =/ prevent or block.
Red
QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 24 2007, 12:37 PM)
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 24 2007, 12:07 PM)
QUOTE ("p. 114 Street Magic")
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.


Doesn't this clear up the blindfold problem? Unless it's transparent or mirrored, it's going to be opaque and, thus, can prevent targeting.

No, that quote says that even if the object is transparent in the real world, it will be an opaque shadow in the astral. Blindfolds and sunglasses block astral perception.

Personally, I don't like transparent objects blocking astral sight and would houserule that out, but there it is.

Since we both know exactly what text we are referencing, we will have to agree to disagree. In my interpretation the word impair implies that these shadows are not purely opaque. However I can understand your interpretation due to the poor structure of that paragraph.

But I would like to add that if you cannot perceive through transparent windows, how do we justify astral perception through transparent gases? If I cannot see through a window, then I cannot see through normal air. And thus all perception becomes moot. What about water? Do transparent liquids block perception too? The state of matter shouldn't have anything to do with determining whether astral perception can see through it.
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