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bibliophile20
I have my players currently taking care of an amnesiac TM that sort of fell into their laps; my campaign is currently set in 2068, so they're completely baffled as to how she can do what she can do. Oh, and they're steadily getting more and more attached to her... vegm.gif
BookWyrm
I just finished reading Emergence from cover to cover. If nothing else, it was a good read & still has source material that can bring a player wanting to play a Technomancer up to speed....at least until Unwired comes out.
imperialus
Just thinking about a the corprate perspective on TM's, I think TM's are a larger threat to corps than mages are. Remember a lot of corps assets are digital. The second crash killed one mega and if TM's can kill a megacorp then it makes sence for the corps to portray them as horrible evil monsters who want to destroy the information network that sustains them... I dunno just a thought.
hobgoblin
one thing that came to mind, they teach magic at mit&t, lone star and other have magic units. magic have become as much a source of security as a threat.

not so with TM's. at best its linked to a mental illness. in other words these people may well be insane. and who knows what insane people may do?!
kzt
QUOTE (Synner)
The scale and scope of the damage of the first and second Crash far outstrips anything the Bugs have and unlike any other disaster or threat that's menaced the Sixth World this one touched almost everyone the world over.

It's proof positive that the only people allowed to manage computer systems in the SR4 world are mental retards.

Nobody ever does off-line backups in SR. Despite that insanely awful computer disaster a few decades ago caused largely by failure to have off-line backups, and the legal requirements that you not only do off-line backups but actually practice recovering from disasters (umm, like your computer system being destroyed) nobody actually EVER does in SR world.

So we supposedly end up with all sorts of data corruption (like SINs being destroyed - WTF?) because the organizations who depend for their very existence on their systems being recoverable and data being able to be restored never bothered to see if anyone was doing this. Despite the example a few decades ago. Yeah, right.

Fires are rare, so why does anyone install fire sprinklers? Transparently stupid plot devices annoy me.
hobgoblin
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

sprinklers are more like IC then backups...
kzt
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

I don't know about you, but we don't let database data files execute code. Recovering from a totally hacked system is part of what competent people know how to do. It isn't like people have never hacked system and installed backdoors that were essentially undetectable and hence required entirely rebuilding the system from scratch.
toturi
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

sprinklers are more like IC then backups...

I was thinking of hardcopy backups. If you are really afraid that electronic medium may be hacked or corrupted, then hardcopies would be your ace in the hole.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 27 2007, 10:48 PM)
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

I don't know about you, but we don't let database data files execute code. Recovering from a totally hacked system is part of what competent people know how to do. It isn't like people have never hacked system and installed backdoors that were essentially undetectable and hence required entirely rebuilding the system from scratch.

maybe so, but how fast can they do it?

this was a virus that when it hit, basically took down just about every system in the whole office, or maybe the whole corp. hell, it took out hardware (most likely taking out firmware by zeroing them, or maybe messing with mechanical parts so that they wear out, a classic on older hardrives. even flash can be worn out quite quickly if done "right").

so the competent guy now have a server that needs parts replaced, that need the os and software reinstalled and the databases brought back from backups. and the higher ups are doing the headless chicken over lost profits? stress and time pressure can make even the best person make mistakes.

then you back to square one.

and this isnt one isolated system, or one isolated part of the world. its happening all over, with a speed and force not seen before.

but yes, if it was purely left to the tech heads, then its one thing. but i wonder how many CEO's or others would get involved when seeing the competition get into trouble, hoping to pull ahead. then things go from bad to insane.

the human factor is all to often overlooked...
hobgoblin
QUOTE (toturi @ Aug 28 2007, 07:26 AM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 01:48 PM)
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

sprinklers are more like IC then backups...

I was thinking of hardcopy backups. If you are really afraid that electronic medium may be hacked or corrupted, then hardcopies would be your ace in the hole.

how simple are those to keep up to date in reference to the data ones? and how quickly can they be put back online?

hell, i wonder how much hard copies are made of the web today. osnews (lovely tech news site) had a 10-year celebration just the other day, and when looking at some old links, they where dead. even "the way back machine" was having issues with them iirc.

sure, we can throw around all kinds of ideas of backing stuff up, but in the end things happen to fast, and people are to lazy, for it to really be put into effect.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

sprinklers are more like IC then backups...

Yeah, because when checking to make sure you always load them directly onto your main servers. Especially after a world-wide crash occurs. To think otherwise is just crazy talk!

And nevermind that prior to the new Matrix networks, lots and lots of systems weren't connected to the Matrix at all. Many were just dumb terminals and storage devices, like wrist and pocket computers. But... the new Matrix is completely wireless, so let's assume the previous one, was, too so we can make up an unplausible story to get rid of it while trying to capture that paranoid 1980's feel in Shadowrun again! It's brilliant and flawless in all ways, and in no way is as unplausible or ridiculous as it actually is.
hobgoblin
some times i wonder why people play this game.
or do they just like coming to dumpshock to went acid about how impossible the background story is?
Ol' Scratch
Sorry for countering your weak arguments. I'll be quiet now so you can go on thinking it was a brilliant point and proof positive for why the entire thing is totally awesome in all ways. (Hmm, I probably won't, really, but I'll say it anyway to make you feel better.)
hobgoblin
im not saying its perfect. im just saying that its a game, so i dont really care.

but going by the number of times these topics gets dredged up, and more often then not by the same few people, its a wonder that they have not walked of into the sunset to a more "likable" game. so i wonder, what makes you people stick around?
toturi
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (toturi @ Aug 28 2007, 07:26 AM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 01:48 PM)
off-line backups that may hold copies of the virus. copies that go boom the moment they are woken up. one do not know how long the virus was being spread before it striked.

sprinklers are more like IC then backups...

I was thinking of hardcopy backups. If you are really afraid that electronic medium may be hacked or corrupted, then hardcopies would be your ace in the hole.

how simple are those to keep up to date in reference to the data ones? and how quickly can they be put back online?

hell, i wonder how much hard copies are made of the web today. osnews (lovely tech news site) had a 10-year celebration just the other day, and when looking at some old links, they where dead. even "the way back machine" was having issues with them iirc.

sure, we can throw around all kinds of ideas of backing stuff up, but in the end things happen to fast, and people are to lazy, for it to really be put into effect.

Passports, identity cards, etc. With bureacracy as it is, there will be hardcopies or at least some form of off-line backup especially if bureacrats want to protect their behids. Nowadays, we have lawyers making their submissions online but we still have the same lawyers wheeling a ton of paper into the courtrooms. When something goes wrong, there will be another source of backups.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 03:18 AM)
im not saying its perfect. im just saying that its a game, so i dont really care.

Your attacking of people's opinions (or more correctly, attacking people for having opinions) suggest otherwise.

QUOTE
but going by the number of times these topics gets dredged up, and more often then not by the same few people, its a wonder that they have not walked of into the sunset to a more "likable" game. so i wonder, what makes you people stick around?

Turn the question around: Why do you bother coming to such an "unlikable" place, posting in "unlikable" threads, aruging with "unlikable" people?
hobgoblin
because i like the game, and is bored?

now you answer the question...

as for attacking opinions, maybe i did. but im not the first, and i will be the last, and as long as we can keep the attacks to verbal ones i think we will all be ok in the end.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
because i like the game, and is bored?

now you answer the question...

Because I like the game, because I dislike aspects of the game, and because I find such threads enlightening all around.

Note that none of my reasons include the word "bored," which is a synonym in this context for "just wanting to bitch for no reason at all."
hobgoblin
i really have painted a bullseye on my forehead?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (bibliophile20)
I have my players currently taking care of an amnesiac TM that sort of fell into their laps; my campaign is currently set in 2068, so they're completely baffled as to how she can do what she can do.

Yeah, right. They all have amnesia, never read about Otaku nor the later online portfolios in system failure. sarcastic.gif
Buster
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
because i like the game, and is bored?

now you answer the question...

as for attacking opinions, maybe i did. but im not the first, and i will be the last, and as long as we can keep the attacks to verbal ones i think we will all be ok in the end.

Is it really that hard for you to understand why it's possible to like a game but want pieces of it fixed? Do you never speak to your friend again just because they said one stupid thing? Do you let your friend keep saying stupid things? If he keeps saying stupid things even after you correct him, do you keep buying his books?

Ok, I lost track of my metaphor, but my point is that we need to keep quality control up or the game will go from awesome to sucks faster than you can say Shadowrun First Person Shooter.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 04:54 AM)
because i like the game, and is bored?

now you answer the question...

as for attacking opinions, maybe i did. but im not the first, and i will be the last, and as long as we can keep the attacks to verbal ones i think we will all be ok in the end.

Is it really that hard for you to understand why it's possible to like a game but want pieces of it fixed? Do you never speak to your friend again just because they said one stupid thing? Do you let your friend keep saying stupid things? If he keeps saying stupid things even after you correct him, do you keep buying his books?

Ok, I lost track of my metaphor, but my point is that we need to keep quality control up or the game will go from awesome to sucks faster than you can say Shadowrun First Person Shooter.

sure, but the crash part of the story is a kind of damned if you do, damned if you dont area.

as in, i have a feel that if it was retconed, people would cry foul at that to.

and yes, i correct a friend if he makes a error. but only if that error is fact based, and even then i just point out the problem and leave it at that. i dont shout and go on about it every time i see him.

but in the end, SR is fiction, not fact. it diverted from real life somewhere in the 1980's, and went on from there. to me the crash happened some time in that alternate timeline, and leave it at that. how possible or impossible it is given real life tech and all that is a non-issue really.

as in, i play SR to have fun, not recreate real life down to the binary details. i like the matrix rules and stuff because it allows the "hero geek", not the "basement nerd". if that means glossing over the hows and whys of real life computing, so be it.
Buster
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 05:45 AM)
and yes, i correct a friend if he makes a error. but only if that error is fact based, and even then i just point out the problem and leave it at that. i dont shout and go on about it every time i see him.

I'm not shouting and going on about anything. This is only one thread about reviewing Emergence, therefore I'm reviewing Emergence. I've never said anything about Emergence until someone asked me.
Buster
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
but in the end, SR is fiction, not fact. it diverted from real life somewhere in the 1980's, and went on from there. to me the crash happened some time in that alternate timeline, and leave it at that. how possible or impossible it is given real life tech and all that is a non-issue really.

as in, i play SR to have fun, not recreate real life down to the binary details. i like the matrix rules and stuff because it allows the "hero geek", not the "basement nerd". if that means glossing over the hows and whys of real life computing, so be it.

It's ok to have low standards, Stephen J. Cannell has made a career of it. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 05:45 AM)
and yes, i correct a friend if he makes a error. but only if that error is fact based, and even then i just point out the problem and leave it at that. i dont shout and go on about it every time i see him.

I'm not shouting and going on about anything. This is only one thread about reviewing Emergence, therefore I'm reviewing Emergence. I've never said anything about Emergence until someone asked me.

well the topic have gone beyond emergence now...
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 28 2007, 05:45 AM)
but in the end, SR is fiction, not fact. it diverted from real life somewhere in the 1980's, and went on from there. to me the crash happened some time in that alternate timeline, and leave it at that. how possible or impossible it is given real life tech and all that is a non-issue really.

as in, i play SR to have fun, not recreate real life down to the binary details. i like the matrix rules and stuff because it allows the "hero geek", not the "basement nerd". if that means glossing over the hows and whys of real life computing, so be it.

It's ok to have low standards, Stephen J. Cannell has made a career of it. biggrin.gif

oh, they are not low in general. but they are variable. and rpg games are not one of the places where i can be bothered to have to high standards.
Buster
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
well the topic have gone beyond emergence now...


Not me, I was only ranting about the premise of Emergence.
Buster
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 28 2007, 12:15 PM)

It's ok to have low standards, Stephen J. Cannell has made a career of it.  biggrin.gif

oh, they are not low in general. but they are variable. and rpg games are not one of the places where i can be bothered to have to high standards.

LOL. Good point.
Sorry for comparing you to Stephen J. Cannell by the way, that was just cruel. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
no problem, i have no clue who he is anyways...
darthmord
I have to agree on the offline backups thing. If the SR corps are anything like RL modern day corps, then that data is backed up regularly and tested for restoration.

The last few companies I've worked for had that as an audit requirement to be checked by 3rd party auditors.

Why? Because lost data = lost profits.

The hardware is cheap to replace. Lost data is all but irreplaceable.

As the CIO / IT Director of a 2060 SR corp, I'd have offline Matrix backups of EVERYTHING important to my company. I'd do regular (daily & weekly) backups to a matrix data node and then take the node offline so I can protect it. Have a few of those so data integrity through redundancy is accomplished too. Think tape backups of RL today but matrix nodes.

Regarding Emergence, I've got it at home. Not a bad read. Seems a bit contrived compared to some of the earlier stuff from SR2 & SR3 though. The timing of its release was bad IMO. It definitely should have come out much closer to System Failure. It would have made a lot more sense and provided better continuity.
Synner
QUOTE (darthmord)
Regarding Emergence, I've got it at home. Not a bad read. Seems a bit contrived compared to some of the earlier stuff from SR2 & SR3 though. The timing of its release was bad IMO. It definitely should have come out much closer to System Failure. It would have made a lot more sense and provided better continuity.

Emergence was initially planned to come out nine months after SR4, right after Runner Havens and Street Magic. The end of FanPro and the changeover to Catalyst dictated otherwise.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Synner)
Emergence was initially planned to come out nine months after SR4, right after Runner Havens and Street Magic. The end of FanPro and the changeover to Catalyst dictated otherwise.

And that would have helped... how exactly?

For all intents and purposes, Emergence is all but a retcon. It had to be released either at the same time or just prior to SR4 for it to have not been. Believe it or not, few people like having their characters and/or concepts taken and anally raped just because a game company decided to change something.

"Oh, you know that technomancer you made a few months back, Bob? Yeah, well, uhm... he's fucked now and secretly has since the very beginning. Sorry. You should have used your psychic powers to know this was coming. You dumbass." Yeah. That's the way people like things handled.
Ancient History
How exactly is a technomancer "fucked?" At worst Emergence provides an excuse to focus on a technomancer player character for a little while. Also, and this just might be me, but I think it appropriate that world events effect the characters and their lives in ways they can't expect.
Ol' Scratch
Having everyone seeking to kill, maim, torture and vivisect a character, and apparently having wanted to do those things for some time now, has the tendency to completely alter characters that didn't originate with said concept.

That's why otaku and now technomancers suck so badly. For some reason -- a reason I can't even begin to grasp -- the people writing about them insist on pigeonholing them into a completely useless hole while trying to pretend that they're fully functional character archetypes. First they were all snot-nosed, underaged kids we were supposed to believe were serious candidates for a shadowrun, now we're supposed to believe that they're being hunted and hated by everyone the world 'round but are still viable candidates for a shadowrun (who's temporary partners wouldn't turn them in for a bounty the moment they found out they were one).

It's just lame. Every bit as lame as forcing all magicians to be Hermetic Mages, all Street Samurai to be real Samurai following the Bushido code, or all Shaman to be poor street trash from the Sioux Nation.
Synner
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
For all intents and purposes, Emergence is all but a retcon. It had to be released either at the same time or just prior to SR4 for it to have not been. Believe it or not, few people like having their characters and/or concepts taken and anally raped just because a game company decided to change something.

Anyone playing a technomancer using SR4 alone will only encounter problems if a) they've been playing it as if the technomancer phenomenon is well-known and society is familiar and accepting of it, and b) if their campaign has progressed beyond June-July 2070 (though even there its a matter of moving events forward a couple of months).

One of the reasons we left a formal timeline out of Emergence was to allow gamemasters to tweak events by moving them a couple of months forward or back as it suited them.

As long as technomancy isn't played up in the campaign - and it shouldn't be since SR4 describes it as exceedingly rare - adapting Emergence into an ongoing campaign is just a matter of adjusting dates (setting it in late 69 early 70 - before SR4 - if you want to skip the witch hunts completely and moving it back to late 70-early 71 if you want to build up to it.)

Frankly, feedback has show it isn't anywhere near the problem even we thought it might be, and Emergence continues to sell well - despite this type of ciriticism and with most people aware of the contents and ramifications by now. In fact feedback at GenCon was exceedingly positive, though as always YMMV.

As to screwing over technomancer characters, but giving a character hell because we felt it serves the story can be a boon of opportunities instead of a hardship for certain players and gamemasters - so rile against it all you want, I stand by our decision to make life miserable for technomancers for a while at least.

knasser
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 28 2007, 01:11 PM)
How exactly is a technomancer "fucked?"


Well, though I'm not quite as, uhm, excited as Funkenstein is getting over this, he is actually correct in this. The technomancer character is fucked because suddenly the whole world regards him as a dangerous lunatic, AAA corps regard his brain as a valuable possession and the entire world wide media is broadcasting how evil he is 24/7. The situation is especially bad given that for the first year or so of play, he's probably been happily demonstrating his abilities as an asset. And lacking GM guidance to the contrary, NPCs exposed to these abilities have probably been fairly un-freaked out.

Now I do have a suggestion for all those (including myself) who don't feel that the "unreasoning, hysterical prejudice" response is realistic - Make an explicit connection between Technomancers and AIs. Ditch some of the mystery and flat out reveal that the origin of Technomancer powers has been traced to manipulation of the human species by AIs. Make public knowledge, to varying degrees, the background to Deus and the crash. NOW you have a reason for technomancers to be suddenly distrusted, feared and targetted and it doesn't require any ret-conning at all. The events of Emergence, including the big reveal, still all work. And in fact, the big reveal can work even better this way.

You're still going to have a problem with Bobby's Parents syndrome for the rest of the team (or all if they have no TM's), and any technomancer player who didn't sign up to play Muslim in the Airport with society at large may still be rightfully pissed at the sudden direction of the campaign. But you have something that will satisfy your urge for realism.

Of course, to those of us who have played through the "Prejudice Against X But They're Really Okay" scenario a few times before, a more fun twist might be to put some truth in the rumours of AI-technomancer control It would be much more fun for Clockwork to turn round and say "You see?" at the end and pose much more interesting dilemmas for any technomancer players.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
Anyone playing a technomancer using SR4 alone will only encounter problems if a) they've been playing it as if the technomancer phenomenon is well-known and society is familiar and accepting of it,

Who cares about society. The Problems already start with Jackpoint, Runner Havens, and Puck happily chatting about how TMs store their memories...

QUOTE (Synner)
and b) if their campaign has progressed beyond June-July 2070 (though even there its a matter of moving events forward a couple of months).

If one started with release and sticked to realtime... then yes, they are way past that.

QUOTE (Synner)
One of the reasons we left a formal timeline out of Emergence was to allow gamemasters to tweak events by moving them a couple of months forward or back as it suited them.

It's not the months that are a problem... it's the years after System Failure. Which ended with first speculations on TMs.

QUOTE (Synner)
As long as technomancy isn't played up in the campaign - and it shouldn't be since SR4 describes it as exceedingly rare

..rare like magic? People playing TMs openly to the team?

Honestly, the problems started with System Failure being released after SR4 and Emergence half a year later.
JesterX
QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Aug 27 2007, 09:35 PM)

or, if you're really sick, rounding up TMs to deliver them for vivisection

Is Dr. Halberstam still around? ^_^
Synner
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 28 2007, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE (Synner)
Anyone playing a technomancer using SR4 alone will only encounter problems if a) they've been playing it as if the technomancer phenomenon is well-known and society is familiar and accepting of it,

Who cares about society. The Problems already start with Jackpoint, Runner Havens, and Puck happily chatting about how TMs store their memories...

If you check dates (those that there are) you will find those comments are consistent with Emergence. Emergence begins in 2069 (the reader is reviewing the Jackpoints thread at the end of the year). Runner Havens is posted sometime during the events described in Chapter 2 (midway through chapter 2 in fact) before the Hong Kong event - by then Puck and others have started to look into the phenomenon and investigating technomancer abilities.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Synner)
and b) if their campaign has progressed beyond June-July 2070 (though even there its a matter of moving events forward a couple of months).

It one started with release and sticked to realtime... then yes, they are way past that.

Fortunately most people aren't sticking to realtime. I've talked to numerous players and this wasn't an issue for the vast majority of them.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Synner)
One of the reasons we left a formal timeline out of Emergence was to allow gamemasters to tweak events by moving them a couple of months forward or back as it suited them.

It's not the months that are a problem... it's the years after System Failure. Which ended with first speculations on TMs.

In Chapters 1 and 2 of Emergence you are told what happened to the first post-Crash 2-0 speculations on TMs - they were rare enough to be written off as variants and extreme expressions of AIPS (a not-so-innocent development as you learn that the corps have been using the AIPS/technomancy link to hide their research programs and get their hands on technomancers).

QUOTE
QUOTE (Synner)
As long as technomancy isn't played up in the campaign - and it shouldn't be since SR4 describes it as exceedingly rare

..rare like magic? People playing TMs openly to the team?

No, SR4 especifically says technomantic expression is rarer than magic (Emergence says its much rarer but doesn't go into figures either).

Regardless, openly using technomantic abilities amongst a group of shadowrunners and having them come to terms with it - when the group might already include one of the rare full-blown magicians in the world, a low-essence cybered up street sam, and an elite hacker sporting high-end progs who are used to dealing with high-level spirits, black op security forces, bugs, and other weirdness that prevades the shadows - is by no stretch of the imagination the same thing as showing off your technomantic abilities in front of your Joe Hologram mates at the local drinking hole (and even less so when those mates are tuning into those ubiquitous media reports that tell them that you're a virus spawn and your powers will drive you insane).

QUOTE
Honestly, the problems started with System Failure being released after SR4 and Emergence half a year later.

Huh?
Synner
QUOTE (JesterX)
QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Aug 27 2007, 09:35 PM)

or, if you're really sick, rounding up TMs to deliver them for vivisection

Is Dr. Halberstam still around? ^_^

Funny you should mention him.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
If you check dates (those that there are) you will find those comments are consistent with Emergence. Runner Havens is posted sometime during the events described in early Chapter 2 when Puck and others have started to look into the phenomenon.

..and that fixes the issue that players were told that TMs are 'just another oddity' before Emergence how? The point is real-time, not game-time.

QUOTE (Synner)
Fortunately most people aren't. I've talked to numerous players and this wasn't an issue for the vast majority of them.

See above - it's is a real-time issue. If people start playing with hindsight on... sure, no problem.

QUOTE (Synner)
In Chapters 1 and 2 of Emergence you are told what happened to the first post-Crash 2-0 speculations on TMs - they were rare enough to be written off as expressions and extreme expressions of AIPS

The TMs speculations in System Failure quickly pointed out parallels to Otaku - and most of those people aren't ones to let such things slip.

QUOTE (Synner)
Regardless, openly using technomantic abilities amongst a group of shadowrunners and having them come to terms with it

The point is that through the main shadowtalkers, Emergence tries to sell that even runners did not witness TMs... while even chapter entry stuff in SR4 claims otherwise.

QUOTE (Synner)
Huh?

The release shedule produced jumps in the time-line. And letting years pass until Emergence is quite a stretch.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Synner)
Regardless, openly using technomantic abilities amongst a group of shadowrunners and having them come to terms with it...

Why should they do that anymore than they would with a Blood Mage or Insect Shaman? All three are sure to get them a nice bounty greatly exceeding anything they'd get for having them tag along on a couple-grand job. Especially since they can replace them just like that <snap>.

Much like how otaku were retarded to have in most groups, too. "Oh, you have an eight-year-old girl along with you? That's cool. Go break into that military base and steal that tank for me."

Both are nothing but a liability. A liability you guys apparently are clutching to and refusing to let ago in order to cater to a really weak premise and plot idea, as opposed to extrapolating far more sensible, non-character-breaking, and shadowrun-encouraging ideas that could have come from the switch to the new Matrix.

As a side point, I still don't get why you're all trying to distinguish between otaku and technomancers, both in-game and out. Or why you keep trying to claim that they're non-magical altogether. (Sure, they have their own tradition-based form of astral sight [AR], astral projection [VR], spirits [sprites], spells [programs], initiation [submersion], and metamagic... but they're not magicians, honest! Even if they didn't start showing up until after the Awakening! That's just coincidence, man.) But that's been a sore point for a long time.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
As a side point, I still don't get why you're all trying to distinguish between otaku and technomancers, both in-game and out.

Mostly because Otaku could be cybered up into evil killing machines.
Ol' Scratch
So can Technomancers.
knasser
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
So can Technomancers.


Not without killing their Resonance attribute. Technomancers are the original glass hammer.

Could Otaku have cyberware without it interfering in their abilities? I skipped third edition (came straight from 1st then 2nd).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
Could Otaku have cyberware without it interfering in their abilities?

Yes.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (knasser)
Not without killing their Resonance attribute. Technomancers are the original glass hammer.


No more so than magicians and adepts. And just like magicians and adepts, it only applies during character creation. They can "repair" the damage just fine by spending a little Karma.

QUOTE
Could Otaku have cyberware without it interfering in their abilities? I skipped third edition (came straight from 1st then 2nd).

Lots of rules changed between editions. The original rules required them to have a couple of implants, too. And in previous editions, there was means for anyone to deck "naked," too, but they mysterious disappeared as a new edition came about.

Nothing stops a technomancer from cybering up. They gain advantages just fine by doing so... it just happens to cost them a price, too. That's called "game balance."
JesterX
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (JesterX @ Aug 28 2007, 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Aug 27 2007, 09:35 PM)

or, if you're really sick, rounding up TMs to deliver them for vivisection

Is Dr. Halberstam still around? ^_^

Funny you should mention him.

Great! ^_^

I can't wait to see what happened to him ^_^

Hey, Synner, did you wrote some part of this book?

Who else worked on it?

*Now I have to put some money aside so that my wife won't blame me for purshasing yet another SR sourcebook*
Demonseed Elite
Just something to keep in mind when people keep bringing up otaku. Otaku were a NPC plot device given rules to be optionally played as PCs. Like ghoul PCs or drake PCs, they were not intended to be either fully balanced or fully integrated into your typical Shadowrun campaign. I wrote the SR3 rules for them and I've always contended that they work better as antagonists than player-characters. Just something to keep in mind.

I would also like to remind people that Emergence--and all of Shadowrun--is fiction. There are a lot of criticisms you could have about the book (I have a few, personally), but arguments over details of realism are a stretch. Any fiction writer serves the story ahead of realism. Serving realism is the role of non-fiction (and a healthy source of debate about the realm of creative non-fiction). There's a balance, of course, when you have a game that is loosely based on reality, but any fiction writer makes these choices. Whether they are a short story writer, a novelist, a television writer, a comic book writer, or what have you.
Buster
Well, fiction doesn't have to be flawless down to the last detail, but you do need a suspension of disbelief. Or at the very least you need eye-popping special effects.

I mean, the premise of The Matrix was ridiculous too (robots have fusion reactors and geothermal energy but really need humans instead as power sources), but it worked because we were already sucked into the movie before the anticlimatic reveal and they quickly jumped back into the action before you had the chance to say "Wha..?".
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