...basically missile guidance would be similar to a pilot programme so one would think that anyone with programming skill could tweak it.

Huh? Launchers don't do damage; rockets/missiles do damage. I'd bet long odds that what you're calling a "missile launcher" fires missiles that are also rockets, no? The SR4 usage of "rocket" = unguided and dumb vs. "missile" = target-seeking is perhaps an odd wording choice, but where are you drawing the line between "missile" and "rocket"? The AIR-2 Genie is a "rocket" (in USAF usage, not SR4 usage) and carries a nuclear warhead.

As for the Panther.. if you give it Recoil 3, then a person using its shockpad and firing prone with a bipod gets enough RC for no penalty; anyone here ever fired a comparable weapon, and if so, would that be appropriate? (I'm not aware of a similar RL weapon, but maybe an antitank rifle?)

I can see this being here for two reasons.

First, all recoil penalties count over the course of an IP, so if for some reason you're two-fisting assault cannons, you'd have other problems, but not recoil.

Second, if Arsenal is like similar books from previous editions, there will be rules for modifying your Panther Assault Cannon to fire in semi-automatic mode (or, god forbid, full-auto).

No, if you want a really good example of what the panther cannon might look/act like, consider the portable hand cannon that the gangers were carrying around in RoboCop.

Then I have to give kudos to the costume department, because, normally, dressing up doesn't give you superpowers, as the label on the Superman costume is so fond of reminding us.

http://robocoparchive.com/info/thegun.htm

I'm not referring to RoboCop's gun, I'm referring to the handcannon that the ganger uses to blow up the car after the cops go on strike.

...how true.

Yeah, guns don't do damage, bullets do damage! Nice nitpicking.

My point was that a rocket propelled grenade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_propelled_grenade) usually carry less powerful penetration and/or explosive effect than an ATGM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATGM.

Note that some TOW missiles can penetrate all known tank armor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-71_TOW , at least the newer warheads.

That something like a m72 LAW and a TOW2b missile should have the same stats is ridiculous, it would be like having holdhouts and sniper rifles have the same stats!

By rocket here I mean RPG, by missile an ATGM.


Negalith, the german panzerfaust was cheap and easy to use (a children used them with no problems), and had terrible range and accuracy but could take out most allied tanks.

The RPG-7 can take out most APCs and IFVs, but have difficulty penetrating most main battle tanks today, at least from the front. The most common caliber is 84mm, which makes it smaller than a T-54's tank gun but greater than most WW2 calibers. In Afghanistan Mujahedin had to fire simultaneously at a russian MBT from different angles in order to destroy it, first one round to set off the exposive reactive armor, then a few more to make a nice hole with the HEAT rocket, kill people inside by molten steel, and possibly ignite fuel or ammo (boom!)

A TOW2b missile could possibly take out an M1 abrams. ATGMs are heavier than RPGs, have guidence systems, and often fired from heavy platforms or vehicles.

that's pretty specific. you're taking a current trend and applying it to all missiles and rockets--but the logic behind today's trends in weaponry may not apply in 2070. right now, the battlefield is in the process of changing from open field warfare in which tanks and armor dominate, to close-in urban fighting where the enemy is mixed in with the civilian population. it's easily possible that this new battlefield (which may have disappeared by 2070, who knows) will favor unguided (ie cheaply-produced) high-penetration rockets from disposable launchers.

Yeah, just like we've taken the trend that hold outs are less powerful than magnum revolvers to still exist 100 years later. Although MBTs may be less important in 2070, there still exist heavily armored vehicles that you need good penetrators against.

And it makes sense to me that heavier versions should at least exist, even if heavy armor is rare.


Hmm, after rechecking the BBB it seems "rockets" and "missiles" share the same launcher, which in case I agree they could well have the same damage etc.

Somehow I thought there were 2 different classes of launchers, which in case different damage would make more sense. It also seems the only price difference between the two is the guidence system (sensor rating).

yes, but that's not what you said. what you said is that missiles are heavy and rockets are light. that's a trend that generally holds true today, but it's not likely to always hold true, and it's certainly not a difference that is inherent to the definition of the terms. the definitions for "rocket" and "missile" in SR are basically the same as the definitions used by the US military--namely, that a missile is guided and a rocket is not. there's nothing in that definition that says anything about how powerful one is compared to the other.

On that, I agree. The BBB lists one size of projectile, available as shaped-charge, fragmentation, or simple HE; available with or without target-seeking; firable from the cheap single-tube launcher or the two-tube, selective-feed launcher. Perhaps Arsenal will include lighter versions comparable to today's RPG, and heavier versions (maybe with minimum STR to carry & use properly, or suitable for the Heavy Weapons Mount which I also hope appears in Arsenal).

I just disagree with using "rocket" to mean RPG size and "missile" to mean larger.
"Missile" is fairly often used to mean "rocket engine plus smart targeting".
"Rocket" in common usage includes everything from bottle rockets to the V-2.

Wire-guidance can be the right tool for the job. Maybe in Arsenal; if not, then I hope someone publishes some stats here; or borrow from Car Wars. I don't read the BBB missile description as including any wireless remote control. Hacking a radio-controlled missile in flight would be an extreme case of "hacking on the fly".

Programming a missile to home in on the strongest broadcast is an established technology called an "antiradiation missile", good for destroying radar installations. Could also work vs. jammers.

Why don't you quote the whole post? I've already agreed that the definitions are appearantly different in SR. In other modern/sci-fi RPGs I've played ATGMs have been more powerful than RPGs. Some guided missiles have even been used to replace tank gun ammunition (in russian tanks), which is why I thought the ATGMs would be larger and more powerful than my image of the RPG (LAW, RPG-7, even the SMAW).

However it seems that in 2070 the only difference between "rocket" and "missile" is wether it's guided or not. Hopefully in arsenal they will include varies sizes and heavier AT weapons more resembling today's TOW.

As for the wired missile, it's an interesting idea because of electronic warfare, but it seemed to me that just like drones a missile doesen't need further instructions after it has been fired - it's fire and forget. It could potentially be hacked, but that would probably take too long as these rockets generally are very fast.

Hyzmarka, don't you think the missile would need some sort of "brain" inside it as well as in the weapon? Something to interpret the signals coming from the wire? Perhaps it's techically possible, it just seems like a loophole to me in order to use cheaper missiles (which is the main reason not to use missiles - more expensive (and yeah I'm, houseruling the sensor replaces attribute thingy).

that is, just to be clear, the same difference the US military uses when they're classifying munitions.

if SR4 had autopilots, i'd suggest that an autopilot be required to make a wire-guided missile do its thang. as they don't, i guess i'd just require that the missile have a higher device rating than an unguided rocket. that will up the cost some, but not as much as installing a full drone brain.

Your comparing vehicle scale weapons with man-portable ones, so yes an ATGM on the scale of a tank round will be more powerful then say a man-portable stinger unit.

Also, modern vehicle rockets are used in salvos so don't require as much of a warhead per rocket.

Well the man-portable Javelin isn't that much worse than the AT-8 Songster (Kobra), if it even is worse. The portable one is of course lighter, and the range is lower, but both can kill most tanks pretty effectively.

Both are in the same "class", which is ATGM. In other words, the size effectiveness of ATGMs vary alot, some are hardly better than RPGs, others could potentially take out m1 abrams.

Of course artillery rockets is something else entirely, if that was what you meant by vehicle rockets firing in salvos. Or did you mean the kind of missiles with multiple warheads that attack from different angles or to destroy reactive armor before the main charge(s) hit?

did you look at the link?

it lists all the major guns used that i can see.

that is if its guided from the launcher, rather then self-guided.

and i cant see any kind of projectile do a 180 in a urban area at speed. that is unless we are talking some kind of insane multi-nozzle setup or something.

and then there is the time it takes to hack it. i would say that unless we see some repeat of the naval rules, with multi-round missile travel, forget it.

and wire-guided have mostly been replaced by laser or radar painting these days (iirc).

hell, when using radar, one can even let the missile do its own painting of the target, fire-and-forget style.

it works for air to air missiles at least

and with millimeter wave radar in a handheld format it should probably work in man-portable weapons also.

I must have overlooked it; in my defense, I was in a hurry at the time of my earlier post.

It only needs simplified sensors and controls. All of the major processing would be done at the launcher. It isn't just technically possible, it is commonly done. It has been done since WWII, when the Germans attempted to implement it because the British were jamming their radio control systems.

Heck, with 2070 technology you can just have a character rig the missile, no guidance system needed.

you don't take dumpshock anymore when a vehicle you're rigging is destroyed?

And you'd take feedback from the missile impact.