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fistandantilus4.0
Ancient's based game, out of either the Tir or Seattle, although they're rather interchangeable anyway.

Year is 2070. None of that "democracy" nonsense. There was a coup attempt, it was foiled. Also none of this 60% taxation of the populace. That's idiotic. Star Chamber and Council of Princes are more in line with the House ofCommons and House of Nobles, except that they are more equal in power rather than the House of Commons having all of it, or the Council of Princes having all of it. Some balance is necessary to maintain the balance.

Players will b within the gang, but this isn't a low level gang campaign

Looking at using Frank's build rules with a few modifications. 400 BP, + 100 karma. I had considered using 500 BP, but looking at trying ti with some karma first. Characters can be shadowruner material, banished nobles, ex-ghosts, gangers from the streets who rose the hard way, and so on.

Max initiate grade of 2

Street cred will start at 5

Using a variant of Frank's rule for Wired Reflexes. The cost will remain as listed in the book. However, the essence cost will be 1/rating


Invited Players so far are : Plan B, Callidus, Critias, Fortune, Doc Funk

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=9901&hl=
Frank's build rules, except for :
Aptitude and such do exist. You can buy up skills over 6-7 once the game starts

Avail is 16

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16111
House Rules I generally use
Fortune
I'm adeptable. smile.gif
Critias
Lemme dig up my pdfs and take a look. I might have a hankering to toss together a spellcaster of some sort (for once).
fistandantilus4.0
Still toying with the build values. I usually go with 500 BP. I got requests for 400 and karma instead. So I'm looking to see at what folks can do with that and Frank's build rules.

Relevant books are of course Elven Fire, Underworld SB, New Seattle, Runner Havens.

Now, I'm not big fan of the Tir as a democracy, so this game will be taking place in 2070, there was a political coup attempt, and it was put down. let me know if you need any assistance with book references and rules.
Critias
I've got a concept in mind, but need to bounce it off you in terms of what your Ancients are. I was actually killing time yesterday thinking up a new character (for the "regular" timeline, though) but he'd be pretty workable for this alternate where the coup fails, just as easily.

He'd be a Rinelle terrorist type who, as everything falls apart around his ears, manages to make it out of the country to Seattle. He knows if he goes back to the Tir he's hosed, but is still enough of a Tir-thinking fella that he doesn't want to just mingle with the everyday schmucks in Seattle, so throws in his lot (perhaps thanks to an old contact or two, as well) with the Ancients.

I've seen so many people run the Ancients so many ways, I can't keep track of what's "official" any more when it comes to their membership. Some just treat them like any other go-gang, some treat them like every single member is Ghost-quality and planted in Seattle by the Tir, some treat them as Tir outcasts who band together in their new city, some treat them as a training ground for would-be Peace Force supersoldiers, some treat then like an official Tir militia in Seattle, some like a policlub with official Tir gov't ties (that just happen to ride motorcycles everywhere), and on and on and on.
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
Some just treat them like any other go-gang, some treat them like every single member is Ghost-quality and planted in Seattle by the Tir, some treat them as Tir outcasts who band together in their new city, some treat them as a training ground for would-be Peace Force supersoldiers, some treat then like an official Tir militia in Seattle, some like a policlub with official Tir gov't ties (that just happen to ride motorcycles everywhere), and on and on and on.

All of the above. biggrin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Crit, I know exactly what you mean. I've been taking the time to discuss my understanding of the Ancients with others so far, because I think the game will work loads better if we're all on the same page from the get go.

Ancients summarization:
'The Ancients ' is an all elf go-gang based out of Seattle's Tarislar area. They control most of the district directly or indirectly, enforcing their own rule, similar to other syndicates such as the yakuza. They are regarded as folk heroes by many of the more romantic elves in the district, meaning that recruiting is always up, especially since the decimation of the Princes of Blood a few years back.

On the outer levels, the Ancients are mostly dissafected youths, seduced by the allure of being criminals and easy money. They play Robin Hood in Tarislar, terrorize trolls when they find them, having a special hatred for the Spikes gang, and go out of their way to firebomb Humanis buildings. They party hard and long in to the night, and generally pretty close knit and supporting of each other, in comparison to other sprawl gangs.

There are a number of factions and inner politics within the Ancients however. Many of the upper echelons are former Tir citizens, banished from the Land of Promise for some crime, real or perceived, against the Council of Princes. Most of these made their way to Seattle and Tarislar, having no other place to go, or moeny to get the there. As such, the Ancients is filled with agitators, disidents, and ambitious people, forming a number of different factions.

One of the more popular factions is led, quietly, by the Ancient's chief Leiutenant, Gren Lucifer. This faction supports the Rinelles, hates the Council of Princes, and generally agitates and the Tir government. However, they don't necessarily disagree with the caste system, despite what their rhetoric says. For many, it's simply a grudge agains the people that cast them out, trying to bring them down the people that cast them out. That doesn't mean thy wouldn't want to come in afterwards and take their place.

The second most powerful faction is led by the Ancient's leader Sting. Obstensibly, she took over the Ancients from her lover Wasp years ago, and cut ties with the Tir. In truth, these ties are still very much alive and well. Many Ancients do dirty work, including smuggling, espionage, and murder for powers within the Tir, and are wel compensated for their efforts. These ties however , are kept very quiet, as the Tir can be very unpopular with a number of Tarislar residents.

These are the primary factions, but by no means the only ones. The Ancients has members from all levels of Tir society, including a number of banished nobles, Peace Force soldiers, and even a few Ghosts according to rumors. There is a core paramilitary group in the upper tiers of the Ancients, some with their loyalties owed to Lucifer, some to Sting. They form the back bone of the Ancient's strength, able to apply military training and skill to the Ancient's operations, as well as procure military grade hardware when needed. This is the core of the dual factions as well. The Ancients depend on the advanced equipment Sting's contacts can bring in, while more of the banished are loyal to Green Lucifer.

There is also rumored to be one or more initiatory groups within the Ancients, although none of significant size. With so many strong personalities, it's no suprise that the gang is broken into numerous cliques. Toss in the occassional spy for a Tir noble, Lone Star agent, rising star from within, and who knows what else, and you've got a gang with politics to rival the nation it hearkens from.
fistandantilus4.0
Well.. so much for a short synopsis....
fistandantilus4.0
Needless to say this isn't the end all be all. If anyone has thoughts they'd like to add to it, questions, or even their own views, by all means, post away.

Now, as to subject matter of the game; I consider my games pretty much rated R. I doubt that's going to be a problem for anyone though. PvP isn't encouraged, but it's not discouraged either There are politics in the game, feel free to play them out. Some one may well get shot in the back If this is an issue for anyone , please let me know now.

Becuase of this, also, we will not be posting character sheets or backgrounds. Those will all come to me. You can feel free to make your own alliances with other PCs as well. Sort of a Tarislar Surivor I suppose. biggrin.gif
I do tend to give out larger amounts of karma. A lot of that is based off of proactive playing, regular posting, and good RPing. You will get to use this karma, up grade cyber ware , initiate, and so on. This is not one of those games where your character wil be the same all the way through.

I will make you work to stay alive at times though. I hate beginning characters because I hate the idea of kid gloves. There are no glovces, there is no spoon, and no you aren't Neo anyway.

smile.gif
Fortune
So, do we get some post chargen money to go along with the 100 Karma? biggrin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Nah, using the Frank-Sys 2.1, you get 7K per BP. I think that's plenty. You'll get some walking around money, but that's it besides what you earn in game.
Fortune
That is, very literally, disarming news.
fistandantilus4.0
You should have plenty of BP to get gear and guns and such.
Fortune
You would think so, wouldn't you? nyahnyah.gif biggrin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
I just said I did ... think ... that is ....

*wanders off*
Fortune
Trust me, I'm 'armless. wink.gif
Critias
*gets to work* I'm going to stick with my zany plan to try and make a spellcaster of some sort. I apologize in advance if I'm absolutely shitty at it. I've made -- since '91 -- three spellcasters in Shadowrun, ever, and two of them were been Aspected Sorcerors (the third I played for one half of one adventure, and not a single combat).

I'm going to try and go whole-hog and make a full mojo-slinging, spirit-summoning, type of guy for this (just to see how it all falls together in SR4). To not completely leave my comfort zone I'm going to work on him based on a cool combat mage image (I've always been fond of Estios and the other of Laverty's Paladins) and just see what happens.

So if he sucks, rest secure in the knowledge he'll suck at mundane combat and spellcasting, in equal measure!
fistandantilus4.0
biggrin.gif No problem, and we're around if you have any questions. You can get me on MSN chat or yahoo, or we can set a time to meet up on Shadowland. Fortune's very good at builds and knows the SR4 system pretty well (although he will try and weasel for every single BP he can get biggrin.gif). I've got ay books you need for reference.

And thankfully I've got the Secrets of Power trilogy and Never Trust and Elf so I know the guys you're talking about.
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
And thankfully I've got the Secrets of Power trilogy and Never Trust and Elf so I know the guys you're talking about.

I would expect no less! biggrin.gif

As Fisty said, if you need a hand or anything, just let me know. smile.gif
Callidus
Shoulda posted this earlier but heyho *8-> Current idea is a full mage coming up through the ranks a relatively (thinking 3-6 months ago) transfered to the Ancients from a feeder (reading training/recruitment) gang the Young Ones (or better name if this is cheesy *8->). Thinking of a mentor spirit too but might have to chat to Fistandantilus about it though.... *8->

[edit]Oh will probably be pretty sneaky (I hope) Illusiony and skill based *crosses fingers and gets a calculator *8->[/edit]
Critias
My concept is being refined, by which I mean "a character is taking shape, and he is mad, mad, mad." Or, uhh, words to that effect.

I just remembered I've got Street Magic (whew!) and I'm looking through it some. I'm personally hoping we stick with the 400 bp + 100 karma route, 'cause I'd like to (once I figure out how they work in SR4) have a focus or two, and last I checked you need karma for those.

But, uhh, the limits on money may put a crimp in such plans.
Critias
Yeah, yeah, double post, sue me. wink.gif

How exactly does Adept's improved physical attributes work in your game? In your house rules you mention (sort of) a price break, but I can't tell if it's a price break on just the "above racial maximum" point or what. Is the base price still 1 power point for 1 point of attribute?

Also, is there a power point discount on their improved reflexes to balance/keep up with the cut on Wired Reflexes? Likewise, any change in Synaptic Accelerators, etc? I'm not necessarily asking to request any of the above, or because I'm such an expert I think they need it or whatever, just asking for clarification's sake.
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
I'm personally hoping we stick with the 400 bp + 100 karma route, 'cause I'd like to (once I figure out how they work in SR4) have a focus or two, and last I checked you need karma for those.

You can get (somewhat limited) access to Foci at chargen (better with Availability 16), and the cost to Bond (at chargen only) is only 1 BP / Force of the Foci. That is a huge discount over the actual in-game Karma cost, and might be worth looking into. wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 5 2007, 04:01 PM)
How exactly does Adept's improved physical attributes work in your game?  In your house rules you mention (sort of) a price break, but I can't tell if it's a price break on just the "above racial maximum" point or what.  Is the base price still 1 power point for 1 point of attribute?

From what I can determine, the discount is that it doesn't cost double to go over the natural maximum (as it does in the core rules). The cost is still 1 PP / Attribute Point.

QUOTE
Also, is there a power point discount on their improved reflexes to balance/keep up with the cut on Wired Reflexes?  Likewise, any change in Synaptic Accelerators, etc?


I'm playing an Adept, and not as far as I know.
Critias
Got'cha. I'd just noticed the BP-for-bonding thing myself, so the dream may yet live on. Now I just need, well, the money.

So just how important are initiative boosts in SR4? I know I can barely bring myself to try and play an SR3 character without the Wired-2 (or equivalent) level of speed boosts. I'm also completely clueless as to the viability of (for instance) a sustaining focus with an Increase Reflexes tossed into it. I've genuinely never looked into this sort of thing before, so I don't know how big a problem it would be in terms of wards or focus addiction or who-knows-what-else.

Would that be enough to likely "get me by," as a combat mage? Or is it necessary to go for the more permanent (but sapping more and more mojo) methods of a synaptic accelerator, maybe alpha Wired 1, the adept power, or something like that?

My plan (such as it is) would be to have a sustaining focus I can swap out as the situation dictates ("loading" it with either the reaction boost, catfall, armor, whatever), and a weapon focus for a little extra asskickery.

I'm looking right now at about a 4/2 magic/power points split (which may go 3/2 if I take an essence hit). At a super rough glance -- yes, no, maybe? I know we're not all supposed to see one another's character sheets, but I'm just wondering as to the viability of the whole thing before I start to really sit down and work out numbers.
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
So just how important are initiative boosts in SR4? I know I can barely bring myself to try and play an SR3 character without the Wired-2 (or equivalent) level of speed boosts. I'm also completely clueless as to the viability of (for instance) a sustaining focus with an Increase Reflexes tossed into it. I've genuinely never looked into this sort of thing before, so I don't know how big a problem it would be in terms of wards or focus addiction or who-knows-what-else.

Hard question for me to answer, as I never play character without Initiative boosts (or maybe not so hard to answer if you take that into consideration wink.gif).

Keep in mind that with Sustaining Foci, they need to be rated high enough to support the necessary Force of the Spell. For instance, in the case of Increased Reflexes, that would be at least Force 3, and with Improved Invisibility you would need a minimum of Force 4 (to overcome Object resistance).

I don't really want to go too deep into the min-max of each choice, as that is kinda personal to each character and/or player. There are obvious trade-offs for each choice ... the Spell is slow and not always convenient ... Wires are not Essence-friendly even with the change ... Synaptic Booster is damn expensive.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is Fisty's removal of the limit for Negative Qualities. And I am thinking that he isn't going to be too strict on whether people limit themselves to only spending 50 BP on Resources ... especially if that extra few thousand makes the character 'come alive'. This might help people round out their characters that last little bit.

fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
he isn't going to be too strict on whether people limit themselves to only spending 50 BP on Resources ... especially if that extra few thousand makes the character 'come alive'.


I'm a believer in the maxim that the rules shouldn't get in the way of a good game. So going over a bit on resources and such is fiar game if it's needed to get the character you envisioned, as long as it's within the build points and karma given. I figure it's your character, make him how you want. Conversely, if you're like Fortune and fight for every like scrap that occurs to you, whetehr you plan on using it or not, you'll find that the more you push for , the more I'll push back and take cuts. smile.gif So a few things here and there is no biggy.

As for sustaining foci on Increased reflexes, I think it works pretty viably. That's my opinion at least. There will of course be some times when you're caught flat footed and may not have the time to get the spell lodged in the focus. That's the trade off for not buring a ton of magic on cyber or adept powers. i'd considered making the changeon that Adept power the same as Wired Reflexes to keep it all in line. Honestly, I can't find a good reason not . As this game is going to double as a nice little experiment lab for me an da few different rules I want to play with, I'll go ahead and allow it for this game to see how it jives. Although a sustaining - Health focus (what you would need for Imp Reflexes) would be a lot less expensive, and is more versatile over all than the adept power. Lock in a heal spell you just cast so you don't have to sustain it, cast Increase or decrease attribute spells, and so on.
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Although a sustaining - Health focus (what you would need for Imp Reflexes) ...


As far as I know, Sustaining Foci do not have to be aspected to any single spell or spell category. Their only real limitation is their Force. smile.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Sustaining foci are done by Spell Group (health, combat, etc). This comes off of Spell Foci in general on page 191. Same thing applies to Sepll Casting Foci, and Counterspelling foci.

Question: Are folks using Franks BP to advance after creation for their builds? I'd intended to jsut use karma as normal, but I'm geting a number of requests for using BP for advancement as well. Can I get some kind of consensus from folks please?
Ol' Scratch
Sustaining Foci are definitely limited by a spell group.

Answer: I was until you clarified otherwise. I'd prefer to use his advancement rules (as there's nothing but pluses coming from them from a player's perspective). The big problem I think you're having is that there's nothing distinguishing Build Points and Karma in Frank's system. Well, beyond saying that we have 400 points to build our initial characters then 100 points to advance them (which would include initiation and everything else you can't normally do during creation).
fistandantilus4.0
Im' fine w/ 500Bp for the build, ehich is what I generally do. you're right that I went with the karmic option simply because you can initiate, have an ally, and so on with karma.
fistandantilus4.0
A word on Karmic (Or build - point - ic .. see that just sounds so much worst biggrin.gif) rewards : I like the pro-active. I like characters ttaking some initiative and going for a bit of DIY crime as well as what is given to them. I like in game plots, plotting, and plotters. The more you do the more reqarded you will be in karma/bp/CSP. This doesn't mean of course that there may not be in game consequences. But hey, what are consequences but another great adventure hook? biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
Oh, and on that note I thought I'd pipe in and let everyone know the generalities of what I'm building, too.

I'm leaning towards a full magician with an emphasis on conjuring and manipulation-type spells. He follows a possession tradition and has a version of Adversary as his mentor spirit, so he may or may not be pretty good in a brawl as well. Thought he'd be a nice compliment for the other two magicians already in the game. smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Sustaining foci are done by Spell Group (health, combat, etc). This comes off of Spell Foci in general on page 191.

Yeah yeah. Not enough coffee, and I read the wrong place. I never bother with Sustaining Foci. biggrin.gif

So far I have used Karma advancement, but would love to use Frank's advancement instead.
fistandantilus4.0
Well I've got three votes for it, out of five, so fuck it, go for it. No more bitching from you though Fortune. nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Oh, and since I forgot to post it, since I'm requiring everyone to be an elf (except for that one rogue, tall, skinny, long haired dwarf) there is no BP cost for being an elf.
Fortune
I can bitch if I want to. nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
No you can't. New house Rule. Frank's using it too. It's all the rage these days really.
Fortune
I can rage if I want to. nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
No, this is not your party.
Fortune
Which is why I didn't make any claims about crying. nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
biggrin.gif

OK, I am now reqarding 5 karma to plan B and Critias for not whining about concessions they want made in the rules. or what ever the fuck that translates to in BP. 4 I think.
Fortune
Point me to the place in this thread where I could be said to be 'whining'. eek.gif nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
^
Fortune
Can I change my vote as to the Advancement System?
Ol' Scratch
Decisions were already made, numbers have already been crunched. Have mercy on a drop bear and say NO to change (and thus additional number crunching).
Fortune
biggrin.gif
Critias
*gleefully makes mental notes that he's an elf for free and got 5 extra points just because he happened to not be logged on for the duration of a covnersation*

Sounds like there might be two Adversary-followers in one group, then. Heh. That could be fun. I have yet to see the SR4 version, though, so I might be going for something else. I'm after a rage-filled "screw you, authority figure" type of mentor spirit/totem (or whatever SR4 calls them), so Adversary jumped right into my head -- but I'm sure I can fit a little darker mooded Dragonslayer, or less NAN-flavored Wolf, or something else if it comes down to it.

So, just to clarify -- we can still Initiate despite using (if I've followed the conversation properly) a 500 bp build, right? I'm not misreading stuff on this page?
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
So, just to clarify -- we can still Initiate despite using (if I've followed the conversation properly) a 500 bp build, right? I'm not misreading stuff on this page?

Yep. Up to 2 Grades. smile.gif

Ben always rips me off of Karma, so I am kinda used to it by now. wink.gif biggrin.gif
Critias
Keep givin' him shit, maybe I'll get a few more!
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