I've recently started up a Shadowrun 4th edition game again. Shadowrun has always been my favorite setting, and it was my first RPG ever, so it seems to be what I do best. As is seemingly typical for Shadowrun games the PCs get themselves into trouble. ALOT. This is to be expected when you play a game focused on braking and circumventing the law.
However, I never had a player go so far as to get his character arrested before he even got to the first meeting with the fixer. Until the first session of this new campaign. The PC in question is a VERY large troll by the street name of "Bubba" kind of a country boy who came to the big city for work and adventure. Were playing in a semi-hombrewed version of New York City.
Anyways, 'Bubba' gets a call from his contact and is told that a fixer wants to speak to him about possibly getting him some work. The meet is set in Central Park on Manhattan. In my setting (as in cannon) Manhattan is generally a very high security neighborhood. Ranging from AAA to A (in SR3 terms). I informed all the players of this.
Bubba decides that he needs to bring his horrendous STR Min 10 bow (It deals 12P, more damage than a Panther Cannon), and wear his 'forest' pattern camouflage. I remind Bubba's player that this is only a meet with the fixer and that the huge bow, while technically legal, will probably get him some extra and unwanted police attention. Bubba decides to ignore this advice.
Next I query all the players on how they will get to Manhattan (access is semi-restricted, at least for most car traffic, need a special permit to drive on the island, fairly easy to get). Bubba decides to take the subway. I again point out to Bubba that the subway, especially in Manhattan is bound to have at least some police presence, and they will likely want to have a little talk with any persons trying to bring such a large and deadly weapon into the city. Bubba persist with his plan. As a last ditch attempt I have Bubba's player make a logic+intuition test, planning to force Bubba to leave the weapons behind (attributing this his character sense of common sense). Alas, Bubba is profoundly stupid, and rolls a critical failure. I sigh and tell him Bubba thinks it s a good idea.
The next set of events fall as you might expect. Even in the dangerous neighborhood Bubba lives in people are freaked out by the Troll in forest camo carrying a huge bow. I have Bubba make some perception checks, and tell him that he notices several people looking fearfully at him and speaking into their commlinks. Bubba ignores this subtle warning.
So, as Bubba changes station in a more upbeat crowded neighborhood, he finds himself surrounded by NYPD (who in my homebrew still run security in NYC). Who politely ask him if he wouldn't mind coming and having a word with him (hands on guns at the time). Miraculously, Bubba complies. A short walk later they wind up in a nearby security station, where they ask 'Bubba' to have a seat. He complies agian, and the Police politely inquire as to where Bubba is going and why he is carrying such a huge and lethal bow with him. Bubba, ever the charismatic one, responds that he is going 'squirrel hunting' in Central Park.
Concerned, the police ask to see his ID. At this point I should also point out that Bubba also has to massive obvious cyberlimbs. These limbs are augmented way beyond legal limits, and Bubba (being a sinless shadowrunner) does not have permits for them, fake or otherwise. Bubba's ID is also a medicore rating 2 fake. Upon detecting Bubba's fake ID and absence of permits for the cyberlimbs, the police decide to put Bubba under arrest.
At this point Bubba objects, and makes to fight the police. Thankfully for Bubba, I roll well on the 4 cops initiative, and the 4 of them manage to tazer him down before he can get an action. So Bubba winds up in jail, before the mission has really even started.
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Anyways to be the nice GM that am. Or at least to try and balance out the evil that I will certainly inflict later, I deiced to let Bubba of easy, _this time_. I mean we hadn't even started the mission yet and he was already not going to be able to participate. The fixer that wanted to employ him pulled a few strings and got Bubba of on some minor charges (unlicensed possession of cyberware, unlicensed deadly weapon (ironicly again the cyberlimbs), ect...). He winds up with the Criminal SIN disadvantage, along with a point of Notoriety. The Police also confiscate (I'm sorry, accidentally 'lose') the bow and armor. And the fixer picks him up in time to join in with the mission (after informing him that this run would be free, and that Bubba still owed her big time). The fixer does manage to get him back his limbs however.
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Anyways the rest of the mission proceeded without to much incident, though there was another minor run in with the NYPD. Which got me to thinking, what exactly should be the extent of the punishement the city would inflict on him. I've already decided there should be a fine (not sure how big), and that Bubba would be on Parol. What I'm most interest in is what you guys think the terms of his Parol should be.
Obviously another consequence of his Criminal SIN is that the police now have a recored of his DNA and fingerprints and all that, so whenever he commits another crime...
Full Version: Punishing a character
Typical parole conditions:
Drug & alcohol tests
No associating with known criminals
Meet the parole officer frequently to talk about how he's planning on turning his life around, his job, etc. (this should be fun to roleplay)
Don't get arrested again for ANYTHING
Drug & alcohol tests
No associating with known criminals
Meet the parole officer frequently to talk about how he's planning on turning his life around, his job, etc. (this should be fun to roleplay)
Don't get arrested again for ANYTHING
Why punish the character?
Punish the PLAYER. By giving *him* parole. Require him to demonstrate an ongoing and successful plan for actually contributing to the story, rather than taking time away from everything but himself.
Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city".
But not if the player is constantly testing your limits and your game's limits.
I'd say "Bubba attacked a cop and lost, and is now in prison; would you like to try a character more compatible with the game?"
Punish the PLAYER. By giving *him* parole. Require him to demonstrate an ongoing and successful plan for actually contributing to the story, rather than taking time away from everything but himself.
Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city".
But not if the player is constantly testing your limits and your game's limits.
I'd say "Bubba attacked a cop and lost, and is now in prison; would you like to try a character more compatible with the game?"
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| would you like to try a character more compatible with the game? |
this is shadowrun, what would be more compatible than a troll with two obvious cyber limbs i ask you . . Ok, he was stupid enough to do something like that stunt with the bow . . Now he does NOT get any Money for that run AND has the criminal SIN . . One could argue, that he was staying in character by being stupid while playing a troll . . Such a Character is by far more fitting than all of those nice, elegant, good looking, classy(read bitchy) elves that people (somehow especially "good roleplayers™) tend to play . .
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| "the cops outnumber you in the city" |
The Cops tend to do that anywhere, anyway . . and don't forgt Corp-Sec, they will outnumber every character too . . basically any group, even a small gang, will outnumber any character . . so? big deal . . Shadowrunners should be able to out-perform a certain numerical disadvantage on their side . . That's the whole point of cybernetics and magic in a character . . they get at least a fighting chance . . if you want to have numbers on your side, go, join the army or build a character who'S working with corp sec or play an under cover street cop so the star will leave you alone . .
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| . One could argue, that he was staying in character by being stupid while playing a troll . . Such a Character is by far more fitting than all of those nice, elegant, good looking, classy(read bitchy) elves that people (somehow especially "good roleplayers™) tend to play . . |
Calling disruptive play 'roleplaying' does not excuse the fact that it's supposed to be a co-operative storytelling game, and disruptive play is functionally the same as being an annoying dickhead
Which is pretty much what the troll appears to be doing, roleplaying or not.
OP: I think you did it right, if maybe a bit too lenient. Now chances are the player may have learned something, or the character. This time he was lucky and only ended up with a 10-point flaw that he'll not get anything in return for.
My take is, since he's SINless the cops won't bother following up too much, although they'll keep an eye out for him. The next time they take him they're not likely to be as nice, and can quite legally execute him and dump him in an alley. It's not about punishment, it's about being the lowest member of society - having a criminal SIN.
My take is, since he's SINless the cops won't bother following up too much, although they'll keep an eye out for him. The next time they take him they're not likely to be as nice, and can quite legally execute him and dump him in an alley. It's not about punishment, it's about being the lowest member of society - having a criminal SIN.
If this was your first session, there may be a disconnect with how the player perceives the world compared to the GM (and even the other players). While you gave him warning, he may have viewed it as challenges - much as D&D characters always head into 'certain death' situations yet come out alive time and again. Make sure the player OoC understands the type of game you're trying to run.
BTW, I rarely put meets in places difficult for runners to reach. The whole idea is that the person hiring them wants to get the meet done - if there are too many obstacles to getting to the meet, the rest of the run is less likely to even happen.
BTW, I rarely put meets in places difficult for runners to reach. The whole idea is that the person hiring them wants to get the meet done - if there are too many obstacles to getting to the meet, the rest of the run is less likely to even happen.
Having him arrested isn't necessarily bad.
Cops, especially now that corp security is running the world, are likely more corrupt than ever. Therefore, a couple of the cops may even try to leverage that arrest into getting Bubba, and possibly his friends, into shaking down some local stores or even doing some runs against corp security teams in an attempt to make the police look better and earn the dirty cops a bit of cash. Perhaps they even fake Bubba's parole reports as part of the deal, meaning that Bubba can do what he wants unless they call for a favor. In addition, if they're connected, perhaps a cop higher up is willing to wipe his record for a few favors (or so he says) or maybe switch out the fingerprint and DNA samples.
You're still going to have to deal with getting a new fake sin, but now that the cops know Bubba, I see no reason they wouldn't abuse him to their advantage. Remember, even the bad stuff can work in the GM's favor.
Cops, especially now that corp security is running the world, are likely more corrupt than ever. Therefore, a couple of the cops may even try to leverage that arrest into getting Bubba, and possibly his friends, into shaking down some local stores or even doing some runs against corp security teams in an attempt to make the police look better and earn the dirty cops a bit of cash. Perhaps they even fake Bubba's parole reports as part of the deal, meaning that Bubba can do what he wants unless they call for a favor. In addition, if they're connected, perhaps a cop higher up is willing to wipe his record for a few favors (or so he says) or maybe switch out the fingerprint and DNA samples.
You're still going to have to deal with getting a new fake sin, but now that the cops know Bubba, I see no reason they wouldn't abuse him to their advantage. Remember, even the bad stuff can work in the GM's favor.
Where should I start.
1: Core Cyberlimb rules are stupid, and that includes legality codes for enhancements. Use Augmentation's Customized Cyberlimb rules instead.
1: Core Cyberlimb rules are stupid, and that includes legality codes for enhancements. Use Augmentation's Customized Cyberlimb rules instead.
| QUOTE |
| The next set of events fall as you might expect. Even in the dangerous neighborhood Bubba lives in people are freaked out by the Troll in forest camo carrying a huge bow. I have Bubba make some perception checks, and tell him that he notices several people looking fearfully at him and speaking into their commlinks. Bubba ignores this subtle warning. |
2: Why the hell would that attract any attention. He's a bow hunter. People hunt with bows. It is common. And due to the rarity of drive-by arrowing it is the sort of thing that people don't notice. People look at a guy in camo carrying a bow and they just naturally assume that he is a bow hunter. If he had been carrying a rifle, it may have been different. But he wasn't. *
If you're going to have a game world where bow hunting is somehow conspicuous, then you should tell the player first.
Of course, people might mistake him for Ted Nugent.
3: Cyberlimbs would not be considered deadly weapons because they only cause stun damage. (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger).
4: Violations of hunting regulations would be handled by the Game Protector, not the NYPD.
In short, really, if you are going to play a game in which one can't grab a bow or a rifle and go hunting in Central Park then you should tell your players.
*I should point out that I live in the South.
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city". |
I very much disagree. SR4 is trying to portray cyberlimbs as the poor man's clonal replacement. The guy could have lost both his arms in a horrific cotton bailing accident. The fact that cyberlimbs are not as good as a troll's natural meat (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger) means that no sane troll would willingly get cyberlimbs unless he needed gadgets like grapple hands. Heavy amping is necessary for a cyberlimb to approach a troll's natural capability.
And just out of curiosity, did Bubby ever compliment anyone on having a "purdy mouth" because, if not, that oversight is worthy of punishment.
Another note, how are the cyberlimbs illegal? The only enhancements that are restricted are strength and body, and being a troll could be permit enough to get those.
Um, bow hunting (hunting of any kind, actually) -is- illegal in NYC. At all times. Carrying a bow around on the subway -would- get you looked at funny. There is -nowhere- in the City of New York to hunt, and Central Park would not be a legal place to hunt in any case. Bow hunting, anyway, requires a license. Which requires a SIN.
Also: NYPD *is* the game warden in NYC, IRL anyway. (You apply for a license to hunt at 1 Police Plaza.)
And hunting is so -uncommon- among city-dwellers it isn't funny.
Also: NYPD *is* the game warden in NYC, IRL anyway. (You apply for a license to hunt at 1 Police Plaza.)
And hunting is so -uncommon- among city-dwellers it isn't funny.
| QUOTE (Penta @ Nov 10 2007, 03:40 PM) |
| Um, bow hunting (hunting of any kind, actually) -is- illegal in NYC. At all times. Carrying a bow around on the subway -would- get you looked at funny. There is -nowhere- in the City of New York to hunt, and Central Park would not be a legal place to hunt in any case. |
Thanks for all the replies.
| QUOTE |
| Why punish the character? Punish the PLAYER. By giving *him* parole. Require him to demonstrate an ongoing and successful plan for actually contributing to the story, rather than taking time away from everything but himself. Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city". But not if the player is constantly testing your limits and your game's limits. I'd say "Bubba attacked a cop and lost, and is now in prison; would you like to try a character more compatible with the game?" |
I think the player has a pretty good character concept, he just executed it poorly this first mission. In his defense its been a little while since we have done Shadowrun and he may have been somewhat still caught up in the D&D mindset. He certainly was not intentionally trying to disrupt my game, and did put a good faith effort into roleplaying his character. I thought the outcome I went with was a good lesson on the effects of stupid criminal behavior in Shadowrun. Note however that if Bubba had managed to kill any of the cops the player WOULD have had to role up a new character. All this happened before the mission actually got started and I was trying to disrupt my game as little as possible (ie by letting him participate with the character he made, and I approved).
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| If this was your first session, there may be a disconnect with how the player perceives the world compared to the GM (and even the other players). While you gave him warning, he may have viewed it as challenges - much as D&D characters always head into 'certain death' situations yet come out alive time and again. Make sure the player OoC understands the type of game you're trying to run. |
I think this is exactly what happened. We've done shadowrun before, but its been a while. On the other hand, I thought my OOC warnings were pretty clear, hopefully the in character results got the point through.
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| BTW, I rarely put meets in places difficult for runners to reach. The whole idea is that the person hiring them wants to get the meet done - if there are too many obstacles to getting to the meet, the rest of the run is less likely to even happen. |
Shouldn't have been that hard to reach, none of the other players had a problem. Heck, they even managed to bring their small-arms along.
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| 1: Core Cyberlimb rules are stupid, and that includes legality codes for enhancements. Use Augmentation's Customized Cyberlimb rules instead. Another note, how are the cyberlimbs illegal? The only enhancements that are restricted are strength and body, and being a troll could be permit enough to get those. |
I don't have Augemtation's (yet) so I had to go with the Core-rules semi homebrewed (so that a Troll could have a useful cyberlimb. I agree that the legality codes are rather silly (especialy considering his Car-killing bow is perfectly legal). I told the player that his limbs were "technicaly" illegal. But that nobody was likely to give him trouble over them, unless he was getting trouble over something else as well. Unfortunately for that is exactly what happened. The NYPD wasn't to happy with him riding around on the Subway with such a massive bow, for 'squirrel hunting' in Central Park. They couldn't arrest him for that though, so they brought him in for the cyberlimbs.
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| 2: Why the hell would that attract any attention. He's a bow hunter. People hunt with bows. It is common. And due to the rarity of drive-by arrowing it is the sort of thing that people don't notice. People look at a guy in camo carrying a bow and they just naturally assume that he is a bow hunter. If he had been carrying a rifle, it may have been different. But he wasn't. * If you're going to have a game world where bow hunting is somehow conspicuous, then you should tell the player first. |
Note that this game is taking place in New York City, and Bubba was heading to Central Park on Manhattan Island, certainly NOT anyplace bow hunting would be common. I'm not clear on the modern legality on bows, but I would bet that if you got on the Subway in NYC today wearing camo and carying a large bow the police might be a little concerned by it. Your fellow passengers certainly would be. The player was aware of this during player creation. And also, if he had given the police any sort of excuse other than 'squirrel hunting' in Central Park I would have let him by, I was looking for an excuse to let him off and start my game.
Also note that this is NOT your average bow. This is a STR Min 10 "Bow-O-Doom." The strongest human in history couldn't operate it, heck the human augmented max (9) is still to little, so a cybered to the gills sammy STILL couldn't operate it. Its to much for your average troll or uncybered ork/dwarf as well. This bow has got to be absolutely massive, and is really only appropriate for hunting like, well Cars or something.
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| 3: Cyberlimbs would not be considered deadly weapons because they only cause stun damage. (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger). |
Well I'm inclined to agree with you but the rules say differently. The deadly 12P dealing bow in perfectly legal, while the cyberlimb is illegal (or at lest restricted). I did house-rule that the obvious cyberlimb dealt (STR/2+1)P though. My solution to this in-game was for him to not get much hassle for the limbs, but to get hassle for the bow. The player was aware of this.
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| I very much disagree. SR4 is trying to portray cyberlimbs as the poor man's clonal replacement. The guy could have lost both his arms in a horrific cotton bailing accident. The fact that cyberlimbs are not as good as a troll's natural meat (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger) means that no sane troll would willingly get cyberlimbs unless he needed gadgets like grapple hands. Heavy amping is necessary for a cyberlimb to approach a troll's natural capability. |
Hit the nail on the head. 'Bubba' lost the arm and leg in a hay-mower accident. And even with my houserules Bubba has to max out his cyberlimbs to even match original bodies capabilities.
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| heck the human augmented max (9) is still to little, so a cybered to the gills sammy STILL couldn't operate it. |
just a little nit picking here . . an EXCEPTIONALLY strong Human could with cyber/bio, because the racial modified limit changes from 9 to 10 or 11
Oh, come on now, even massive bows are carried in cases. And those cases don't have "ballista" stamped on them; you can see a few samples here. I'd at least have given Bubba the benefit of the doubt, and presumed that he had a bow case. It's still a dumb idea to carry it around willy-nilly, but it also wouldn't cause a panic on the subway.
Good point Cain. I doubt the other shadowrunners carried their small arms around on their way in, why did Bubba?
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| Shouldn't have been that hard to reach, none of the other players had a problem. Heck, they even managed to bring their small-arms along. |
oh yes, they did, he just said so O.o
He means, he doubts that they carried their small arms around *openly*. 
oh, okay, my bad x.x . .
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| Oh, come on now, even massive bows are carried in cases. And those cases don't have "ballista" stamped on them; you can see a few samples here. I'd at least have given Bubba the benefit of the doubt, and presumed that he had a bow case. It's still a dumb idea to carry it around willy-nilly, but it also wouldn't cause a panic on the subway. |
A good idea, I'll pass this suggestion along to Bubba's player. In any event he explicitly did NOT do this. He had the bow and arrows out and ready, 'in case he had to use them.' Digging/assembling the bow out of a box would not have let me do this.
*shrug* You can carry a strung bow in the case, and a line of arrows as well. Make it, say, a complex action to ready the bow and nock an arrow, and he's only slightly worse off than everyone else. Granted, he was still silly for not using a case, but he sounds like a newbie and deserves a few breaks.
Penalize him all you want. Fine him, make him forced to be a pro-bono shadowrunner for his NYPD Inc. Parole officer.
But give the man at least a karma point, for sheer hilarity.
But give the man at least a karma point, for sheer hilarity.
I regret waiting so long to come into this topic, as my current character happens to be a Criminal SINner who's on parole (although this condition arises from character creation, rather than in-game consequences). So I can say this:
A crooked parole officer is a wonderful thing. I mean, basically you're parole officer owns your ass. You can go back to prison anytime off his recommendation. You have no rights. He can enter your home, search through your stuff, doesn't need a warrant an no one will ever, ever take your word over his. Now, imagine that level of power in the hands of an unscrupulous person, over a cybered-up killing machine.
My character takes jobs just so I don't go back to prison. he PO covers for me with fake work reports, fake cyber scans and good behavior updates, and in return he gets a cut of my earnings. I'm getting my freedom on the installment plan.
Most of knowledge of parole comes from watching the fine Law & Order family of shows, and it was covered in more depth in the Lone Star sourcebook for SR2. As a minor point, Parole is an early conditional release from prison, Probation is a sentenced monitoring period. You would typically have to serve a portion of your prison sentence before you got paroled, whereas probation you could get hit with right away. I'm like 90% sure on this terminology, but I'm not a legal scholar.
A crooked parole officer is a wonderful thing. I mean, basically you're parole officer owns your ass. You can go back to prison anytime off his recommendation. You have no rights. He can enter your home, search through your stuff, doesn't need a warrant an no one will ever, ever take your word over his. Now, imagine that level of power in the hands of an unscrupulous person, over a cybered-up killing machine.
My character takes jobs just so I don't go back to prison. he PO covers for me with fake work reports, fake cyber scans and good behavior updates, and in return he gets a cut of my earnings. I'm getting my freedom on the installment plan.
Most of knowledge of parole comes from watching the fine Law & Order family of shows, and it was covered in more depth in the Lone Star sourcebook for SR2. As a minor point, Parole is an early conditional release from prison, Probation is a sentenced monitoring period. You would typically have to serve a portion of your prison sentence before you got paroled, whereas probation you could get hit with right away. I'm like 90% sure on this terminology, but I'm not a legal scholar.
Did the other runners explicitly carry their sidearms in concealable holsters and whatnot? Do they even have a holster?
I wouldn't penalize him to a complex for readying his bow. I'd argue that carrying it around ready would be what it sounds like he was doing. As in, he wouldn't need a ready action to fire correct?
In a case would require the simple action to ready it before fireing. I suppose you can chalk it up to Bubba's critical glitch on his int+log test, and tell him Bubba didn't realize it was a bad idea to do that. From now on, I'd give him a free hit on such tests involving open weaponry and just flat out say "thats a bad idea, remember when the cops busted you?"
I wouldn't penalize him to a complex for readying his bow. I'd argue that carrying it around ready would be what it sounds like he was doing. As in, he wouldn't need a ready action to fire correct?
In a case would require the simple action to ready it before fireing. I suppose you can chalk it up to Bubba's critical glitch on his int+log test, and tell him Bubba didn't realize it was a bad idea to do that. From now on, I'd give him a free hit on such tests involving open weaponry and just flat out say "thats a bad idea, remember when the cops busted you?"
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I wouldn't penalize him to a complex for readying his bow. I'd argue that carrying it around ready would be what it sounds like he was doing. As in, he wouldn't need a ready action to fire correct? |
To get a firearm out and firing, you need to take a Ready Weapon action to draw it, and another Simple Action to fire it. You can attempt to quickdraw pistols, but that carries a penalty. A Complex Action to ready a bow and arrow isn't much of a penalty.
If he wanted to avoid the Ready Weapon action to load the bow, he'd need to not only have an arrow nocked, he'd need to keep it drawn. And I don't care how strong you are, you can't hold a bow drawn for any significant length of time. You'll stress out your bowstring, for one. I also doubt even Bubba would be stupid enough to keep a bow drawn for an entire subway trip.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
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You'll note that it's nearly a century old.
Oh, and it was only one guy, hired by the Parks Dept to do the job.But, anyway, enough with such off-topicness.
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| *shrug* You can carry a strung bow in the case, and a line of arrows as well. Make it, say, a complex action to ready the bow and nock an arrow, and he's only slightly worse off than everyone else. Granted, he was still silly for not using a case, but he sounds like a newbie and deserves a few breaks. |
I'm not convinced that it is practical for Bubba to carry around this massive bow around all strung and ready to go in a carrying case. It seems to me that this hand ballista is impracticaly large to carry in a case without at least partially disassembling it and de-stringing it. Sort of like a sniper-rifle or something (but large than any of the rifles in the book for sure). I suppose it could be done, but it would be one heck of a box.
In any case no way could he get the bow out and ready it in a signal round as a complex action. A round is like 3 seconds long, it would probably take Bubba at least that long to just open the case. And another round to get it out and ready. This is assuming he has it already assembled in the case. If not he would die before he could put it together
I don't feel any need to make using this bow any easier for the player. The thing deals 12P damage. Its literally more deadly than the fabled Panther Cannon. I don't let my players run around with those on the subways either. Bubba is a big strong troll and has other options open to him besides the bow. He's got ranks in longarms and is positively deadly in unarmed combat. Now I'm still happy to have him and the bow in the game (I did approve it after all). But its certainly NOT a weapon that I have any regrets making inconvenient to use from time to time (like a LMG or Panther Cannon). Also, the player in question really should know better. And even if he didn't I feel I gave him ample warning in and out of game.
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| Did the other runners explicitly carry their sidearms in concealable holsters and whatnot? Do they even have a holster? |
Yes and yes. Most of them with long coats thrown on top for extra concealability. We played 2nd and 3rd edition for a long time (years) before switching to 4th, so my players are accustomed to concealability rules, even if they have diapered to an extent in 4th edition.
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| I wouldn't penalize him to a complex for readying his bow. I'd argue that carrying it around ready would be what it sounds like he was doing. As in, he wouldn't need a ready action to fire correct? [snip] In a case would require the simple action to ready it before fireing. |
I think were getting confused here. Unless Bubba has some crazy huge quick-drop/quick release container for the bow its going to take him more then a round (probably two) to draw the thing out. However, onces its out Bubba can fire it as a complex action (or rather 1 simple action to draw and nock the arrow, one simple to fire). But in the situation at hand you are absolutly correct. Bubba had the bow either in hand (readied) or stashed on his back somehow, in which case he would have to take a ready action before he could use it.
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| I suppose you can chalk it up to Bubba's critical glitch on his int+log test, and tell him Bubba didn't realize it was a bad idea to do that. From now on, I'd give him a free hit on such tests involving open weaponry and just flat out say "thats a bad idea, remember when the cops busted you?" |
Good advice, this is exactly what I will do.
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| If he wanted to avoid the Ready Weapon action to load the bow, he'd need to not only have an arrow nocked, he'd need to keep it drawn. And I don't care how strong you are, you can't hold a bow drawn for any significant length of time. You'll stress out your bowstring, for one. I also doubt even Bubba would be stupid enough to keep a bow drawn for an entire subway trip. |
I agree with all this. But do not underestimate the stupidity of players/PCs. Especially ones like Bubba. I can see him rolling the STR checks to keep the bow drawn now...
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| If he wanted to avoid the Ready Weapon action to load the bow, he'd need to not only have an arrow nocked, he'd need to keep it drawn. And I don't care how strong you are, you can't hold a bow drawn for any significant length of time. You'll stress out your bowstring, for one. I also doubt even Bubba would be stupid enough to keep a bow drawn for an entire subway trip. |
Hell no! Going by the ready weapon action, it involves nocking an arrow for a bow, not drawing the string and holding it. A readied bow would have an arrow nocked, and be in someones hand, drawing and releasing are in the realm of the "fire weapon" action.
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 11 2007, 03:29 AM) |
| A readied bow would have an arrow nocked, and be in someones hand, drawing and releasing are in the realm of the "fire weapon" action. |
Have you ever fired a longbow? And if we're talking about an STR 10 minimum bow, we're talking some variation on a longbow. If you at all want to be accurate, it's not a 3 second move to pull back, aim and fire. Even from the knocked position, the very best marksman will take about 3.4 seconds to pull back (9 arrows in 30 seconds) and loose, with little to no regard to aiming according to a study at the Royal Military College of Science, and that's about as fast as it gets. Most longbowmen would have rates at about twice that, or 6-7 seconds to pull back and loose without aiming.
The reason why the longbow is considered fast for a bow is because it can be fired 2-5 times in the time it takes for a medieval crossbow to fire and reload. In addition, while the longbow's range is roughly equivalent to a medieval crossbow, it's accuracy is much much better at long range.
| QUOTE (Simon May) | ||
Have you ever fired a longbow? And if we're talking about an STR 10 minimum bow, we're talking some variation on a longbow. If you at all want to be accurate, it's not a 3 second move to pull back, aim and fire. Even from the knocked position, the very best marksman will take about 3.4 seconds to pull back (9 arrows in 30 seconds) and loose, with little to no regard to aiming according to a study at the Royal Military College of Science, and that's about as fast as it gets. Most longbowmen would have rates at about twice that, or 6-7 seconds to pull back and loose without aiming. The reason why the longbow is considered fast for a bow is because it can be fired 2-5 times in the time it takes for a medieval crossbow to fire and reload. In addition, while the longbow's range is roughly equivalent to a medieval crossbow, it's accuracy is much much better at long range. |
Agreed, I train Japanese archery (Kyudo), and from first hand experience I can tell that loading and drawing a bow takes time.
Although green, I need at least 3 seconds just to place the arrow on the string (from the hand mind you), and more than that to draw the bow. And that's if I ignore everything else (getting the grips right, the etiquette, aiming etc.).
"Loading" the bow should be a complex action for pros, complex action to draw and simple to shoot.
I know this would make bows useless in the game compared to firearms but... well they knew that already back in the days of the civil war.
I see nothing wrong with what you did. The character was being an idiot, he's lucky he wasn't left dead and dumped in the river by the cops. Frankly, if he was as big and beefy, I see no reason he couldn't just get away with something simple like a survival knife. It's obvious, that the venue was chosen because it was safe and low risk area for people just to meet.
Also not all areas are regulated uniformly. The main book reflects the Seattle area legalties, correct? Just because something doesn't have an 'R' doesn't mean that it's fair game everywhere and anywhere. Who's to say that the local politicos don't have a regulation against bows with over 60lbs draw in this locale? (frankly that makes sense given the legality issues on a panther assault cannon!).
Also a lot of these comments regarding bows I find silly. There's no reason it would have to be a longbow or even a recurve. Why not a compound bow? I can't think of a good reason the bow would be physically larger than another if you replace wood w/ composite or spring steel alloy. Mind you I prefer a nice 60lb take down recurve for recreational shooting... but compounds have a lot of good points. No reason it'd be larger though, it'd probably be heavier (not a problem for the high str individual).
Also drawing an ultra-high strength bow requires your arms yes, BUT MORE IMPORTANT IS YOUR BACK AND SHOULDERS!!! Forensic anthropologists can discern a medieval archer's skeleton from anothers just by deformations present in the back/shoulder/arm area. Strikes me that using a bow should require average strength of torso and both arms. You mention the troll only has two cyberarms.
I sometimes have images of these trollbow guys w/o cybertorsos having their back muscles ripping loose from their bones from the excessive strain. Only fair considering it does as much as a panther assault cannon w/ none of the legality issues!
Also not all areas are regulated uniformly. The main book reflects the Seattle area legalties, correct? Just because something doesn't have an 'R' doesn't mean that it's fair game everywhere and anywhere. Who's to say that the local politicos don't have a regulation against bows with over 60lbs draw in this locale? (frankly that makes sense given the legality issues on a panther assault cannon!).
Also a lot of these comments regarding bows I find silly. There's no reason it would have to be a longbow or even a recurve. Why not a compound bow? I can't think of a good reason the bow would be physically larger than another if you replace wood w/ composite or spring steel alloy. Mind you I prefer a nice 60lb take down recurve for recreational shooting... but compounds have a lot of good points. No reason it'd be larger though, it'd probably be heavier (not a problem for the high str individual).
Also drawing an ultra-high strength bow requires your arms yes, BUT MORE IMPORTANT IS YOUR BACK AND SHOULDERS!!! Forensic anthropologists can discern a medieval archer's skeleton from anothers just by deformations present in the back/shoulder/arm area. Strikes me that using a bow should require average strength of torso and both arms. You mention the troll only has two cyberarms.
I sometimes have images of these trollbow guys w/o cybertorsos having their back muscles ripping loose from their bones from the excessive strain. Only fair considering it does as much as a panther assault cannon w/ none of the legality issues!
| QUOTE |
| Most of them with long coats thrown on top for extra concealability. |
Oddly enough, in a gritty setting, long coats should attract attention in high enforcement zones precisely because they aid in concealing weapons (or bombs...).
What are you talking about? As long as you don't go anywhere near a high school, the law can't make a couple trench coats Columbine into a reason to arrest you.
Bullshit. Profiling is alive and well. If I'm a corp cop in a corp enclave, then I'll take the time to give special attention to those with 'trenchcoats' or to those wearing oversized hoodies in the summer, or anything else that seems out of place. I've never been a cop (poor hearing kept me out of the academy), but I was a probation officer and a corrections officer and I have several cops as friends - they're paid to think, not to just look at the 'legality code' of a particualr piece of equipment.
BTW, I never said arrest - just that they attract attention. If you then have something on you that gets you arrested...
BTW, I never said arrest - just that they attract attention. If you then have something on you that gets you arrested...
And the ACLU appears in what SR source books? Has an SR4 book mentioned a need for "probable cause"? What makes you think they can't just stop and search? It's how it works in most European countries. "You papers please" isn't just said in German.
Story Time!
You did the right thing. HAd something similar happen in a campaign when I was in college. The characters were in Hawaii, and the johnson wanted to meet on the beach. The beach was a safe, neutral area, with tons of visible, local security (consisting of cops on 4-wheelers with armored jackets and tasers).
All but one character showed up in a bathing suite without any visible weapons. The troll (is this a common theme), however, decided to bring all the gear on his character sheet. Not only was he fully armored so the beach guards couldn't hurt him without a lot of luck, but he was carrying several guns and a 3-meter combat ax.
The beach guards decided that their tasers weren't going to work, so they just ran him down several times, then tasered him after he was almost unconscious. They took him in, then turned him over to a criminal group that we were being hired to take care of in the first place. We had to rescue him, but that was the last time the group bothered rescuing him. He continued to get into trouble, and the group eventually had to kill him after he tried to make a deal with a bug shaman who just used the opportunity to use the influence power of the queen spirit to force him to attack us.
Am I the only one who sees this as a pattern for Trolls... does anyone see orks doing the same dumb things?
You did the right thing. HAd something similar happen in a campaign when I was in college. The characters were in Hawaii, and the johnson wanted to meet on the beach. The beach was a safe, neutral area, with tons of visible, local security (consisting of cops on 4-wheelers with armored jackets and tasers).
All but one character showed up in a bathing suite without any visible weapons. The troll (is this a common theme), however, decided to bring all the gear on his character sheet. Not only was he fully armored so the beach guards couldn't hurt him without a lot of luck, but he was carrying several guns and a 3-meter combat ax.
The beach guards decided that their tasers weren't going to work, so they just ran him down several times, then tasered him after he was almost unconscious. They took him in, then turned him over to a criminal group that we were being hired to take care of in the first place. We had to rescue him, but that was the last time the group bothered rescuing him. He continued to get into trouble, and the group eventually had to kill him after he tried to make a deal with a bug shaman who just used the opportunity to use the influence power of the queen spirit to force him to attack us.
Am I the only one who sees this as a pattern for Trolls... does anyone see orks doing the same dumb things?
| QUOTE |
Also a lot of these comments regarding bows I find silly. There's no reason it would have to be a longbow or even a recurve. Why not a compound bow? I can't think of a good reason the bow would be physically larger than another if you replace wood w/ composite or spring steel alloy. Mind you I prefer a nice 60lb take down recurve for recreational shooting... but compounds have a lot of good points. No reason it'd be larger though, it'd probably be heavier (not a problem for the high str individual). |
A compound bow is basically a variation on a longbow, with pulles replacing some of the neccesary draw strength. They *still* need a lot of strength to pull properly, though. As for the size thing, that's because the bow in question would have to be troll-modified. With two-meter-long arms, a normal bow with normal draw length is going to be impossible for a troll to draw and aim properly.
Again thanks for all the replies. I haven't been really responding to the positive ones, but I am going to take most of these suggestions into account. Bubba's parole/probation officer is going to be an interesting character to add into the mix, but I sometimes wonder if that is to much penalty to lay on top of his criminal SIN. I mean the police have his prints on file and everything now, so next time he leaves some physical evidence of a crime behind they won't have to wonder much who did it. I'm beginning to think that adding a parole/probation officer who also owns Bubba's but might be pushing it a bit. I mean he already owes a signifigant favor to his fixer now as well.
| QUOTE |
| Also a lot of these comments regarding bows I find silly. There's no reason it would have to be a longbow or even a recurve. Why not a compound bow? I can't think of a good reason the bow would be physically larger than another if you replace wood w/ composite or spring steel alloy. Mind you I prefer a nice 60lb take down recurve for recreational shooting... but compounds have a lot of good points. No reason it'd be larger though, it'd probably be heavier (not a problem for the high str individual). |
I admitidly don't know that much about bows, but it seems this bow should be substantially larger than any human made bow ever. For one it is built to troll proportions (long arms and all that), for another its pull has got to be horrendous. As I've pointed out before no human being on Earth could possibly use this thing, not even the very heavily cyberaugmented ones in Shadowrun. I've got no idea what the draw strength would be except for alot. Obviously this bow has to be made out of some high-tech composite/metal of some sort, but even so I would assume it would be thicker and taller than any modern bow, and would have to have a heavy duty string (like steel cable or something probably). Its arrows (easily able to penetrate reinforced and structural materials) must like wise be heavy duty.
| QUOTE |
| Also drawing an ultra-high strength bow requires your arms yes, BUT MORE IMPORTANT IS YOUR BACK AND SHOULDERS!!! Forensic anthropologists can discern a medieval archer's skeleton from anothers just by deformations present in the back/shoulder/arm area. Strikes me that using a bow should require average strength of torso and both arms. You mention the troll only has two cyberarms. I sometimes have images of these trollbow guys w/o cybertorsos having their back muscles ripping loose from their bones from the excessive strain. Only fair considering it does as much as a panther assault cannon w/ none of the legality issues! |
Good points, which I agree with totaly. However in Bubba's case his unaugmented STR is 10, so this is not an issue. His cyberarm and cyberleg use a homebrewed varient of the rules that allowed him to buy his cyberlimbs up to STR 10, matching his natural ability.
| QUOTE |
| Oddly enough, in a gritty setting, long coats should attract attention in high enforcement zones precisely because they aid in concealing weapons (or bombs...). |
While I don't disagree with this, wearing long dark trenchcoats is so much a part of the Shadowrun/Noir/Matrix theme that I don't give my players any hassle about it most of the time. Walking around looking mysterious with their shades and long-coats is just to much a part of the theme of Shadowrun for me to penelise my players for it. Of course when there are at a situation that calls for different attire I enforce that approprietly, but for default situations (like a meet with a fixer), its okay in my book. I mean what would cyberpunk be without its trenchcoats!
Heck, in the SR universe being a runner is 'cool.' So you probably have a large portion of wanna-bee's walking around dressed in similar fashion. Heck, the whole matrix/noir trenchcoat theme is probably a well established style.
This is a completely crazy suggestion, but how about his parole conditions requiring him to perform community service as a "love troll" for "scared straight".
Really, with the name Bubba he's just asking for a chance to fulfill the popular meme. "You elf boys sure have purdy mouths".
Really, with the name Bubba he's just asking for a chance to fulfill the popular meme. "You elf boys sure have purdy mouths".
| QUOTE |
| I admitidly don't know that much about bows, but it seems this bow should be substantially larger than any human made bow ever. For one it is built to troll proportions (long arms and all that), for another its pull has got to be horrendous. As I've pointed out before no human being on Earth could possibly use this thing, not even the very heavily cyberaugmented ones in Shadowrun. I've got no idea what the draw strength would be except for alot. Obviously this bow has to be made out of some high-tech composite/metal of some sort, but even so I would assume it would be thicker and taller than any modern bow, and would have to have a heavy duty string (like steel cable or something probably). Its arrows (easily able to penetrate reinforced and structural materials) must like wise be heavy duty. |
The fact that the bow is troll-modified would make it larger, but it wouldn't need to be made out of anything special to have a huge draw weight. Medieval ballistas fired tree trunks at castles, with enough force to blow holes in stone walls, and they weren't made of anything but wood and rope. A compound bow substitutes pulleys for the recurve, allowing one to draw a much higher weight than normal. You can see a few here. To get a bigger bow up to troll levels would only really require mesing with the pulley arrangement.
You're somewhat right about arrows. You'd need to increase their length substantially to accomodate a troll. However, you wouldn't need to modify the materials, so long as you were willing to have them shatter on impact. Many modern arrowheads are made of steel; steel is harder than lead, which most bullets are made out of.
A bow is really nothing more than a spring arrangement, and we can make springs of considerable power without going ultra-tech.
Agreed. I own a Matthews Switchback XT and that thing's actually only about 4 lbs and 30" inches from axle to axle despite the fact that it's rated at 300+ FPS and can handle a 70 lb draw (not that *I* use 70; I'm a wuss. 50 all the way for me). That's not all that long for an adult's bow; a lot of bows actually sit in the 32-35 inch range with some outliers at 36-37, but I know from experience that it's apparently quite possible to engineer a a pretty compact bow and still kill stuff dead. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if it turns out that bows are large these days mostly because there's really no crying need or demand for shorter ones; most improvements these days focus on smooth draws and cutting down on vibration..
| QUOTE |
| The fact that the bow is troll-modified would make it larger, but it wouldn't need to be made out of anything special to have a huge draw weight. Medieval ballistas fired tree trunks at castles, with enough force to blow holes in stone walls, and they weren't made of anything but wood and rope. A compound bow substitutes pulleys for the recurve, allowing one to draw a much higher weight than normal. You can see a few here. To get a bigger bow up to troll levels would only really require mesing with the pulley arrangement. |
I think we could agree that a medivel ballista is somewhat um... "larger" then your traditional bow. Indeed near as I can figure Bubba's bow should have a draw weight someplace around 400lbs, making it far more like a ballista than any kind of common bow. Now again, I'm not a bow expert, it seems to me since this is drasticaly more than any conventional (or compound) bow shoots, Bubba would require something fairly exotic to meet his needs.
| QUOTE |
| You're somewhat right about arrows. You'd need to increase their length substantially to accomodate a troll. However, you wouldn't need to modify the materials, so long as you were willing to have them shatter on impact. Many modern arrowheads are made of steel; steel is harder than lead, which most bullets are made out of. |
The rules seem to indicate that a 12P bow could be expected to punch through reinforced materials like brick and concreate, or security doors, or punch through hardwoods with little trouble at all. As conventional arrows would have difficulty doing this, this tells me that the arrows fired from Bubba's bow must be somewhat more substantial. Recall again that Bubba's bow does more damage then ANY of the firearms in the book and outranges a good portion of them as well (600M extreme range). Things that stop your average rifle or handgun cold (like armored glass) don't even phase Bubba's bow.
| QUOTE |
| Agreed. I own a Matthews Switchback XT and that thing's actually only about 4 lbs and 30" inches from axle to axle despite the fact that it can hit about 300+ FPS. |
Not to dismiss your bow (which I am sure is a very formidable weapon), but Bubba's bow outpowers it by such a large margin as to make the comparison not very apt. 300fps is probably fairly deadly for a bow with its moderately heavy projectile weight. Bubba's bow is FAR more powerful however. The projectiles it shoots are probably both much heavier and fired at a far higher speed. It makes sense then (to me at least) for a bow several times as powerful to be several times as large.
Max:
If you want a very nasty way to glitch or attack a high strength bow. Have the string break or ask for a called shot to break the string! Frayed bowstrings are NOT a laughing matter. The thing could be as good as a monowire whip when it breaks and whips around for a single attack! Also the limbs (especially when tensed) are a fine balance between durability and flexibility, a called shot to the limb could damage it enough that the limb breaks when drawn the next time.
A quick primer on the physics of bows. I agree a troll's bow would be physically different, but I don't agree it would necessarily be larger simply because the troll is larger. It also means a longbow for a normal human would be a normal size bow for a troll, as well as allowing a troll to use a physically massive bow. Interesting, but unrelated, the taller a bow is the easier it is to shoot precisely as the bow is more stable.
The most important thing to the troll as an archer. Is the bow able to properly flex to the accomodate the trolls larger arms and draw length? Also accordingly the trolls arrows would be much longer, heavier, and larger! This could be accomplished in one of 3 ways that I can think of. Those are more flexible limbs, physically larger bow, and gearing either singly or in combination. This is exactly the same as asking in a way, what's the difference between a child's bow and an adults bow in the modern day.
(check out the wiki articals on recurve bows, compound bows, and mechanical advantage as it regards pulley systems).
A normal human has roughly a 24-30" draw with a longbow type weapon (drawn to the side of the head to the ear). Horse or shortbow types are generally only drawn to the chin (giving them a 18-24" draw length). I'd say a troll is 50% larger than a human, so would probably have a 50% longer draw of about 4feet.
The term draw weight is somewhat misleading as it's actually more of a chart.. how far back is the bowstring pulled back and how many pounds force does it take to hold the string at that point. Generally there is a peak draw weight, and a hold draw weight. For a long or recurve there is no letoff so the farther back you pull a bow, the more weight the bow pulls back with. This matters because the arrows speed when it leaves the bow is the integral of the acceleration (F=ma) over the draw length.
Contrary to the SR4 rulebook, a normal human could probably draw a trollbow, they just would not be able to draw it back the full 4 feet and make it reach it's maximum strength. So more properly, a normal human would be inable to use the bow properly to it's maximum potential. It's also unlikely the human would be able to get it past it's peak draw weight, but they would still be able to pull it back a short distance. There's enough if's there to make the weapon far from optimal and nowhere near it's normal performance and with a huge dice pool penalty just for trying it.
If you want a very nasty way to glitch or attack a high strength bow. Have the string break or ask for a called shot to break the string! Frayed bowstrings are NOT a laughing matter. The thing could be as good as a monowire whip when it breaks and whips around for a single attack! Also the limbs (especially when tensed) are a fine balance between durability and flexibility, a called shot to the limb could damage it enough that the limb breaks when drawn the next time.
A quick primer on the physics of bows. I agree a troll's bow would be physically different, but I don't agree it would necessarily be larger simply because the troll is larger. It also means a longbow for a normal human would be a normal size bow for a troll, as well as allowing a troll to use a physically massive bow. Interesting, but unrelated, the taller a bow is the easier it is to shoot precisely as the bow is more stable.
The most important thing to the troll as an archer. Is the bow able to properly flex to the accomodate the trolls larger arms and draw length? Also accordingly the trolls arrows would be much longer, heavier, and larger! This could be accomplished in one of 3 ways that I can think of. Those are more flexible limbs, physically larger bow, and gearing either singly or in combination. This is exactly the same as asking in a way, what's the difference between a child's bow and an adults bow in the modern day.
(check out the wiki articals on recurve bows, compound bows, and mechanical advantage as it regards pulley systems).
A normal human has roughly a 24-30" draw with a longbow type weapon (drawn to the side of the head to the ear). Horse or shortbow types are generally only drawn to the chin (giving them a 18-24" draw length). I'd say a troll is 50% larger than a human, so would probably have a 50% longer draw of about 4feet.
The term draw weight is somewhat misleading as it's actually more of a chart.. how far back is the bowstring pulled back and how many pounds force does it take to hold the string at that point. Generally there is a peak draw weight, and a hold draw weight. For a long or recurve there is no letoff so the farther back you pull a bow, the more weight the bow pulls back with. This matters because the arrows speed when it leaves the bow is the integral of the acceleration (F=ma) over the draw length.
Contrary to the SR4 rulebook, a normal human could probably draw a trollbow, they just would not be able to draw it back the full 4 feet and make it reach it's maximum strength. So more properly, a normal human would be inable to use the bow properly to it's maximum potential. It's also unlikely the human would be able to get it past it's peak draw weight, but they would still be able to pull it back a short distance. There's enough if's there to make the weapon far from optimal and nowhere near it's normal performance and with a huge dice pool penalty just for trying it.
Just read your last post (made while I was writing that long one)... two small points... 400lbs draw is not unheard of. That is about the draw weight on a medieval arbalast (heavy crossbow). That's NOT the size of a siege weapon. The most notable difference between the arbalast and the longbow is that the arbalast used relatively short steel springs instead of longer more flexible wooden limbs. (there's also a problem with efficiencies... medieval crossbows were hugely ineffecient at translating that draw weight into bolt velocity... made even worse because bolts were typically accelerated over a short distance of 12inches instead of 30inches. The major advantage of xbows was their lack of special training requirements vs. the life training requirement for an archer.
On arrows and bullets...
A broadhead arrow can slice through a phonebook. A 3" thick phonebook will commonly stop many pistol bullets cold. (this is actually a reason that pistols are more efficient than bows... overpenetration is energy that doesn't go into deforming and killing the target! having the bullet 'shatter' in the target is an advantage). But it does neatly show the penetrating power of a relatively massive arrow over a few grains of bullet when it slams into something. It would be more realistic in this aspect of the SRun bows instead of ramping up raw damage ramped up the AP value of the bow but w/ a lower damage.
Yes, Bubba would require a bit more exotic arrow construction. The arrow flexes when fired. If it flexes too much it snaps or is inaccurate. Modern compound bows shouldn't be fired with wooden/fiberglass arrows designed for recurves because the arrow can break or shatter on release, potentially injuring the shooter.
As far as your ranges... a sporting rifle (to say nothing of a sniper rifle) has a 750m extreme range by the book. (note I'm on record as stating I think firearms should lose 1point of armor penetration per range bracket, bullets don't hit as hard at long range as point-blank). If the bow is going 600m it's not firing directly like a gun is (arcing is still minimal for a gun at those ranges as the bullet is so light everything is based on velocity kinetic energies). It's arcing in a very high ballistic arc. At that point...it doesn't hit hard as if it was fired directly on a low arc at short distances. (aerodynamic drag reduces the arrow to terminal velocity as gravity brings it back down). You wouldn't be out on a limb to halve the bows damage at that range. (look up something called clout archery). Also you could make a case, that it only reaches that range when 'flight' arrows are used (special arrows which do less damage/accuracy but which are designed specifically to fly as far as possible). I'll put myself on the record and state I think a bow/xbow should probably lose 2 or 3 points of AP per range bracket.
On arrows and bullets...
A broadhead arrow can slice through a phonebook. A 3" thick phonebook will commonly stop many pistol bullets cold. (this is actually a reason that pistols are more efficient than bows... overpenetration is energy that doesn't go into deforming and killing the target! having the bullet 'shatter' in the target is an advantage). But it does neatly show the penetrating power of a relatively massive arrow over a few grains of bullet when it slams into something. It would be more realistic in this aspect of the SRun bows instead of ramping up raw damage ramped up the AP value of the bow but w/ a lower damage.
Yes, Bubba would require a bit more exotic arrow construction. The arrow flexes when fired. If it flexes too much it snaps or is inaccurate. Modern compound bows shouldn't be fired with wooden/fiberglass arrows designed for recurves because the arrow can break or shatter on release, potentially injuring the shooter.
As far as your ranges... a sporting rifle (to say nothing of a sniper rifle) has a 750m extreme range by the book. (note I'm on record as stating I think firearms should lose 1point of armor penetration per range bracket, bullets don't hit as hard at long range as point-blank). If the bow is going 600m it's not firing directly like a gun is (arcing is still minimal for a gun at those ranges as the bullet is so light everything is based on velocity kinetic energies). It's arcing in a very high ballistic arc. At that point...it doesn't hit hard as if it was fired directly on a low arc at short distances. (aerodynamic drag reduces the arrow to terminal velocity as gravity brings it back down). You wouldn't be out on a limb to halve the bows damage at that range. (look up something called clout archery). Also you could make a case, that it only reaches that range when 'flight' arrows are used (special arrows which do less damage/accuracy but which are designed specifically to fly as far as possible). I'll put myself on the record and state I think a bow/xbow should probably lose 2 or 3 points of AP per range bracket.
Remembver, we're talking unaugmented maximum strength being 10 for a troll . . at 600m . . so if augmented to 15 strength, you get much more range(if that is still coming from strength) . . also, SR does not take into account such things as projectiles such as arrows needing to be shot at an ballistic angle to reach that range . . also there's nothing saying that weapons get weaker with range, else you could allways argue, that they get stronger the closer you are . . light pistol set in head of troll does not make troll head go SPLAT . . there was nothing in SR3 that could match a Troll with Strength of 16 and an Ranger-X Compound bow that was below heavy weapon . . and even some of those had to stand back in regards of power niveau . .
I still remember with glee the horror on the face of one of my GM's as i showed him what could be accomplished with a Strength 16 Troll . . Bone Lace Plastic and Hardliner Gloves make for a nice 19M Damage in unarmed Combat . . a Pole Arm with Dikote does 20D Damage . . and the Bow did 20M Damage over . . let's see . . STRx60 ? 960 meters ? only Sniper Rifles and Heavy Weapons and some Rockets could match that . . but only 2 weapons can match or get a higher Power-Niveau . . Ares Great Dragon ATGM with 20D AV Damage and the Vindicator Minigun which starts at 7S and works up to 22D with a recoil of 15 . . everything else above that is vehicle mounted *g*
I still remember with glee the horror on the face of one of my GM's as i showed him what could be accomplished with a Strength 16 Troll . . Bone Lace Plastic and Hardliner Gloves make for a nice 19M Damage in unarmed Combat . . a Pole Arm with Dikote does 20D Damage . . and the Bow did 20M Damage over . . let's see . . STRx60 ? 960 meters ? only Sniper Rifles and Heavy Weapons and some Rockets could match that . . but only 2 weapons can match or get a higher Power-Niveau . . Ares Great Dragon ATGM with 20D AV Damage and the Vindicator Minigun which starts at 7S and works up to 22D with a recoil of 15 . . everything else above that is vehicle mounted *g*
I would have done nearly the same thing as the OP.
Before the game started, I would tell the player I house-rules bows as (STR/2)+X, not STR+X for damage. Then ask if he still wanted to play a troll archer.
Assuming he did, he would be apprehended for disturbing the peace if nothing else. A troll in hunting gear walking through Manhattan makes the wage slaves wonder who, not what, the troll is hunting.
I would give him a fast-forward trial, and 60-days later he is in prison for 36 mo...
He then wakes suddenly, thinking "Man! I was a dumbass!"
It was a dream, a warning, and a GM gimme, all in one.
Before the game started, I would tell the player I house-rules bows as (STR/2)+X, not STR+X for damage. Then ask if he still wanted to play a troll archer.
Assuming he did, he would be apprehended for disturbing the peace if nothing else. A troll in hunting gear walking through Manhattan makes the wage slaves wonder who, not what, the troll is hunting.
I would give him a fast-forward trial, and 60-days later he is in prison for 36 mo...
He then wakes suddenly, thinking "Man! I was a dumbass!"
It was a dream, a warning, and a GM gimme, all in one.
Just a simple reminder:
SR4 + troll + bow = munchkin PC.
I've never seen any trolls with bows in previous editions. SR4 arrives with these extremely powerful bows and suddenly you start seeing trolls with bows everywhere.
And don't give me that "the good runner just take whatever is the most powerful weapon he can get." line. Nobody sane in his mind will think that a bow can be better than a panther canon. I'm not even sure that the average runner knows that boosted strength troll-sized bows exist. It's just silly munchkinism and such characters should attract thor shots (or bovine bombardment) because "the good corporate guard uses whatever is the most powerful weapon his corps can get".
SR4 + troll + bow = munchkin PC.
I've never seen any trolls with bows in previous editions. SR4 arrives with these extremely powerful bows and suddenly you start seeing trolls with bows everywhere.
And don't give me that "the good runner just take whatever is the most powerful weapon he can get." line. Nobody sane in his mind will think that a bow can be better than a panther canon. I'm not even sure that the average runner knows that boosted strength troll-sized bows exist. It's just silly munchkinism and such characters should attract thor shots (or bovine bombardment) because "the good corporate guard uses whatever is the most powerful weapon his corps can get".
Uh, yeah.
The insane Strength and bow "exploit" has been around for quite some time. It's hardly unique to SR4, and it's not even as easy to do as it was in previous editions (which is saying something).
The insane Strength and bow "exploit" has been around for quite some time. It's hardly unique to SR4, and it's not even as easy to do as it was in previous editions (which is saying something).
Simple fix for trolls with bows,
Min Str = rating = no higher than 6 at char gen
after char gen just point out that as a custom job they'd have to go and find someone with one for sale
Min Str = rating = no higher than 6 at char gen
after char gen just point out that as a custom job they'd have to go and find someone with one for sale
I don't remember seeing any troll bow in SR3... I guess there was a more powerful combo...
(I seem to recall something that had to do with some adepts powers and dikote (and probably DMSO+GammaSco on the tip), I don't remember if it was still for bows or just for throwing weapons)
(I seem to recall something that had to do with some adepts powers and dikote (and probably DMSO+GammaSco on the tip), I don't remember if it was still for bows or just for throwing weapons)
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