Full Version: Punishing a character
| QUOTE (Blade) |
| I've never seen any trolls with bows in previous editions. |
Are you kidding? There were tons of them (literally)!
They are no more munchkin now than they have been throughout Shadowrun's history.
Just to point out something, throwing troll adepts are even worse than troll bows. Buy strength up to 10. Take 6 levels of the power throw power, and then 6 points in improved ability throwing weapons. Take quick draw, and then a level 2 synaptic booster and you're set.
Base str 10, + 12 effective for the power throw power = 22 strength. Throwing knives are Str/2+1 = 12P. Sure, the range is only 110 meters. But if he goes with shurikens instead (11P) that range goes up to 154 meters.
Thats as good as a SMG, he can quickdraw them, and he can throw 2 per pass. Even better than a trollbow. Not to mention, they're easily concealed, and you can lace them with chems pretty easily too (not that you'd need to).
Oh, and every time this guy initiates and raises his magic, he can put .25PP toward powerthrow to add another 1 to his DV, leaving the other .75PP free for whatever else he'd like.
Assuming this guy takes a 5 in agility, and a 6 in throwing weapons (bonus muchkin points to spec for throwing knives) then he has 5 + 6 + 2 + 6 = 19 dice to throw them with/quickdraw them with. Pretty heinous.
Base str 10, + 12 effective for the power throw power = 22 strength. Throwing knives are Str/2+1 = 12P. Sure, the range is only 110 meters. But if he goes with shurikens instead (11P) that range goes up to 154 meters.
Thats as good as a SMG, he can quickdraw them, and he can throw 2 per pass. Even better than a trollbow. Not to mention, they're easily concealed, and you can lace them with chems pretty easily too (not that you'd need to).
Oh, and every time this guy initiates and raises his magic, he can put .25PP toward powerthrow to add another 1 to his DV, leaving the other .75PP free for whatever else he'd like.
Assuming this guy takes a 5 in agility, and a 6 in throwing weapons (bonus muchkin points to spec for throwing knives) then he has 5 + 6 + 2 + 6 = 19 dice to throw them with/quickdraw them with. Pretty heinous.
actually, i was the first to try something like that in my general gaming area . . i was literally dumbfounded, that NOBODY thought of that design . . and in SR3 Ranger X bows gave str+4M damage and you could still dikote and dip the tip into Gamma Scopolamine . . i don't know why this seems to be the rage with Munchkins(tread carefully with the wording) in SR4 . . Back in SR3 STR was a little more usefull, as skills costs for many usefull things were based on that . . close combat, heavy weapons, throwing and projectiles . . i even doubled availability and price on my own before getting one of those things in game . . i did not start with the bow . . the pole-arm and the unarmed damage was enough for me . . i did not even think of placing 2 spurs with dikote into him, because i would have been at either 24S base damage or at 2 times 17S base Damage, depending on what rules you use for close combat with 2 weapons . .
| QUOTE (Blade) |
| I don't remember seeing any troll bow in SR3... I guess there was a more powerful combo... (I seem to recall something that had to do with some adepts powers and dikote (and probably DMSO+GammaSco on the tip), I don't remember if it was still for bows or just for throwing weapons) |
Good gods, there were scads of them!
In SR3, a Bow packing Ranger-X arrows did STR+4 damage, In the hands of a STR 18 troll, that was a higher Power than a Panther. Doc is right that it's now harder to get a troll superbow than ever before.
Still, troll bows do not automatically equal munchkin. Playing at a higher power level than you're comfortable with does not make someone into a munchkin.
| QUOTE |
| Simple fix for trolls with bows, Min Str = rating = no higher than 6 at char gen after char gen just point out that as a custom job they'd have to go and find someone with one for sale |
I agree with this, and enforce it in my games. The only catch is that bows are all Availiability 2, regardless of STR minimum. It's not going to be hard to find one in game.
They could always take armorer skill too, and knowledge bowcrafting.
| QUOTE |
| In SR3, a Bow packing Ranger-X arrows did STR+4 damage, In the hands of a STR 18 troll |
Just. . you know . . curious . . and for future referecne . . strictly for research uses . . how do you get a Troll up to STR of 18 and why is that when it's more power than a panther which does by the way 18D in SR3. . said 18 of Power you get by doing strength 14 which isn't even maxed out for Trolls O.o. . . heck, you can get the 18 power niveau without using ANY weapons by using plastic bones with exceptional strength maxed out or ceramic or aluminium or titanium . . that's the REALLY scary part . . an UNARMED Troll can do as much damage as a panther canon . .
Actually, unless that unarmed troll is doing a D damage code, he isn't matching the panther cannon.
Lets go through other things that can match the power of a panther cannon (10P) that you can do at chargen.
Force 10 manabolt. (10P)
HE Grenade (10P)
Str 12 combat axe (10P)
Str 8 bow (10P)
Ares Viper Slivergun (10Pf)
All SMGs long burst (11P)
All assault rifles long burst (12P)
Mossberg burst (11Pf)
Frag grenade (12Pf)
Adept with critical strike 6 and strength 8 w/killing hands.
I think thats all off the top of my head, a few other less effective combat spells, and of course, all the spirits you can do.
Force 10 manabolt. (10P)
HE Grenade (10P)
Str 12 combat axe (10P)
Str 8 bow (10P)
Ares Viper Slivergun (10Pf)
All SMGs long burst (11P)
All assault rifles long burst (12P)
Mossberg burst (11Pf)
Frag grenade (12Pf)
Adept with critical strike 6 and strength 8 w/killing hands.
I think thats all off the top of my head, a few other less effective combat spells, and of course, all the spirits you can do.
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||
Just. . you know . . curious . . and for future referecne . . strictly for research uses . . how do you get a Troll up to STR of 18 and why is that when it's more power than a panther which does by the way 18D in SR3. . said 18 of Power you get by doing strength 14 which isn't even maxed out for Trolls O.o. . . heck, you can get the 18 power niveau without using ANY weapons by using plastic bones with exceptional strength maxed out or ceramic or aluminium or titanium . . that's the REALLY scary part . . an UNARMED Troll can do as much damage as a panther canon . . |
Strength 18 was easy to do in SR3 with a troll, and 14 was easier still (heck, that's just a starting troll with Muscle Augmentation 4). Staging from S to D was just a matter of a couple successes. But the key advantage over a Panther Assault Cannon was that the bow was infinitely more legal and actually could be concealed. A PAC is pretty useless if you can't use it 99.9% of the time, now innit? Even more so when you can approach its power with ease through more legitimate means.
Personally I always rolled my eyes at such characters, even in min/max threads. Dual weilding was way more broken in SR3 and you could do crazy things with Pentak-Silat and a couple of dikoted cyberspurs (which, unlike a bow or a PAC could be weapon foci). Or pretty much any other similar combination.
SR4 made things a lot more sane overall. Sure, you can still push the envelop, but it's all been dumbed down so much that doing so really isn't all that powerful compared to more traditional options. Pretty much any attack, as long as you have a couple fist fulls of dice behind it, can be absolutely brutal.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| ... and then 6 points in improved ability throwing weapons. |
Improved Ability adds directly to the Skill rating, and as such is limited to half the rating of the appropriate skill.
Ok, so 3 points improved ability throwing, and then you have 1.5PP to throw into mystic armor or something.
| QUOTE |
| Strength 18 was easy to do in SR3 with a troll, and 14 was easier still (heck, that's just a starting troll with Muscle Augmentation 4). Staging from S to D was just a matter of a couple successes. But the key advantage over a Panther Assault Cannon was that the bow was infinitely more legal and actually could be concealed. A PAC is pretty useless if you can't use it 99.9% of the time, now innit? Even more so when you can approach its power with ease through more legitimate means. |
In addition, a bow is silent, effectively recoilless, and in SR3, capable of a higher rate of fire. Dikoted arrowheads completed the combination. Of course, the advantage of a Pantehr was that it could be smartlinked, which was a significant bonus in SR3, and not that shabby in SR4.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Ok, so 3 points improved ability throwing, and then you have 1.5PP to throw into mystic armor or something. |
I suggest missile mastery and then you don't even have to worry about knives or shuriken. Just throw rocks!
I saw a Missions character called Iron Chef built around a Troll thrower with Missile Mastery, Power Throw, etc. He was a legitimate chef and carried his cutlery around, explaining that he needed his own tools to be as effective as possible in the kitchen. You can see where this is going, I'm sure ....
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Improved Ability adds directly to the Skill rating, and as such is limited to half the rating of the appropriate skill. |
Not to mention that his Magic would drop by one if he got synaptic boosters, lowering the maximum of his Power Throw power to 5. And the troll in question could only hard max Strength or Agility, not both - I would recommend Agility Boost: 1 instead for the Agililty. I would also second Dashifen's recommendation to add Missile Mastery to that, less for the damage increase and more for the ability to use almost anything at hand as a lethal throwing weapon.
Still, a troll with hard-maxed Strength and Magic will be hurting for points in other areas.
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Nov 12 2007, 05:17 PM) |
| I saw a Missions character called Iron Chef built around a Troll thrower with Missile Mastery, Power Throw, etc. He was a legitimate chef and carried his cutlery around, explaining that he needed his own tools to be as effective as possible in the kitchen. You can see where this is going, I'm sure .... |
hehe... I had a similar character concept--the guy's front company was a high-end cutlery shop.
Forgot trolls got negs to agi. Either way, my point was its quite possible to make a troll doing at least as much damage, if not more than the bow carrier, with infinitely less trouble for doing so.
| QUOTE (Glyph) | ||||
Not to mention that his Magic would drop by one if he got synaptic boosters, lowering the maximum of his Power Throw power to 5. And the troll in question could only hard max Strength or Agility, not both - I would recommend Agility Boost: 1 instead for the Agililty. I would also second Dashifen's recommendation to add Missile Mastery to that, less for the damage increase and more for the ability to use almost anything at hand as a lethal throwing weapon. Still, a troll with hard-maxed Strength and Magic will be hurting for points in other areas. |
You're assuming a starting 400BP character. That's just meant as an example at the lowest power possible.
Also, never assume that a starting character with hard-maxes is going to be hurting in other areas. That's not necessarily the case.
I've tweaked lots of combat-oriented builds. You can ultra-specialize and have a viable character, but you won't have the spread of secondary skills that other characters will. Not everyone will consider that "hurting", but I guess it depends on the campaign, and how much of a role a character almost solely focused on combat can have in it.
But now that I think about it some more, I'm wondering - why start with a Strength of 10 in the first place? A Strength of 9 does just as much damage for throwing (as opposed to bows, where is makes a difference).
But now that I think about it some more, I'm wondering - why start with a Strength of 10 in the first place? A Strength of 9 does just as much damage for throwing (as opposed to bows, where is makes a difference).
You know, I'm enjoying this thread a ton, but isn't the discussion of bows, throwing weapons and min/max build kid of getting off the original intent, which is how to punish a character? Perhaps we should start a separate thread for bows and throwing adepts?
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| ... I'm wondering - why start with a Strength of 10 in the first place? A Strength of 9 does just as much damage for throwing ... |
Yep! Odd numbers for the win as far a Strength goes in SR4. Odd Dice Pools are always better as well.
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Nov 12 2007, 04:17 PM) | ||
I suggest missile mastery and then you don't even have to worry about knives or shuriken. Just throw rocks! I saw a Missions character called Iron Chef built around a Troll thrower with Missile Mastery, Power Throw, etc. He was a legitimate chef and carried his cutlery around, explaining that he needed his own tools to be as effective as possible in the kitchen. You can see where this is going, I'm sure .... |
Canon Companion had this nifty little thing called bow accessory mount in it if i remember correctly . . add an extreme range laser pointer and vision magnification level 3 into the eyes and you basically have a success at 3 before other modifiers . . only at short range is smartlink better, and at that range you simply don't use a bow most of the time anyway *g*
| QUOTE |
| You know, I'm enjoying this thread a ton, but isn't the discussion of bows, throwing weapons and min/max build kid of getting off the original intent, which is how to punish a character? Perhaps we should start a separate thread for bows and throwing adepts? |
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I've tweaked lots of combat-oriented builds. You can ultra-specialize and have a viable character, but you won't have the spread of secondary skills that other characters will. Not everyone will consider that "hurting", but I guess it depends on the campaign, and how much of a role a character almost solely focused on combat can have in it. |
I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be a good spread of secondary skills. I find that in a combat monster, covering social, technical, and stealth skills only require one or two skills apiece. You just choose your skills more carefully. For example a Con (Fast Talk) skill will stand in for Negotiation anytime you're interacting with a Johnson or trying to buy something. That plus a touch of Etiquette will sail you through 90% of all social situations you'll encounter, and you can spend Edge on the last 10%.
He won't be a face, but he'll be almost as good as a generalist in social situations, with a difference of maybe 1 or 2 in their dice pools. He can definitely participate in most social occasions, and maybe hold his own when the stakes are low. Compared to the "well rounded" characters, he does favorably in most of the same categories.
I've never really had a problem tweaking a combat monster so that he would in no way be considered a 'one-trick-pony'. As Cain said, it just takes a highly judicious choice of skills.
I'd just like to point out that a normal human can use Bubba's Troll-Bow, IIRC in SR4 it says for each point of STR that you are under the STR rating of the bow you take a -2 penalty, which implies that you can still use it.
Evidence that this is a recurrent problem:
www.knasser.me.uk/clue.php?clue=3
www.knasser.me.uk/clue.php?clue=3
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