You can do a dystopia as a setting. It isn't that hard to come up with them. I'd just rather that people actually did the world building to produce a dystopia instead of mixing tropes from a dozen movies and claiming that you have a well though out setting, when what you have is a bunch of jury rigged plot devices.

It's like potato chips. Mmm, salty greasy evilness.

Go-gangs aren't so unreasonable when you consider a few things...

Firstly, they live on the borders. If things get too hot, they hop the border and Lone Star can't pursue. Some of Seattle's neighbors aren't too friendly with Seattle, but really don't have much to loose by having some go-gangs drive through a few miles of their wilderness.

Secondly, the SINless just about make the majority of the population in the metroplex. Being in a go-gang is basically being on top of the world. So I can certainly believe that Lone Star initially made surgical strikes against go-gangs, but then the next lower go-gang raised itself up a notch to fill the vacuum, the go-gang below that went up a notch and so on, until you get down to the street gangs where one realized it could jump up into go-gangs, who have more power and get more women, so they did so, and gangs filled in THAT gap, until at the very bottom some dirt suckers have the chance to employ a few more members. Nature abhors a vacuum, and until Lone Star is willing to replace go-gangs with a concrete, non-violent governing body, they will continue to arise to fill that niche.

Thirdly, it's the same problem the US is having in Iraq right now. It's guerilla fighters. When they come out in force, the go-gangs disappear. When they bomb a building, it pisses off twice as many new people who join go-gangs. When they plan a bait and surprise attack, another corporate manager within Lone Star who wants to make sure the baiting manager fails sells the information so the mission dies before it starts. Keep in mind also, the go-gangs have military grade gear. Lone Star sends in a bait truck with a bunch of gangs and a bunch of strato-9s, they get hit by a bunch of RPGs and sticky bombs. Then the go-gangs share that LS is getting uppity and nothing brings a lot of competing groups together like outside competition, so go-gangs across the city start bombing Lone Star depots and destroying Lone Star cars. LS loses out big.

Finally, the big corporations do NOT want the go-gangs to disappear. Aztechnology doesn't send a truck through NAN into Seattle. It sends a huge super tanker, or a giant, heavily armed truck convoy. You don't mess with the Aztechnology trucks because they have the money to make sure their products make it to the shelves. However JoeCo. doesn't have that money, so they DO get hit painfully by the go-gangs. Aztechnology then benefits because the 'little guy' competition, which honestly is probably their most significant threat, since they have a detente with the other AAAs, is severely curtailed, allowing only megacorps like Aztechnology to reliably engage in international trade. A plus!


The whole idea DOES make sense (with a certain amount of willing suspension of disbelief), it just doesn't occur to us naturally because few of us have ever had experience with anything like having large tracts of roads which are considered unsafe. That is basically the case in many countries however, so it's not unheard of, just not quite as crazy as Shadowrun has it.

It's been a while since I read through my LS book but I seem to recall that they want you in the system and alive because of profit. You get sent to a corp run facility and they get to charge the government per head. You get shot in a back alley by to LS goons, they's spent money on the ammo. Put you inside for 5 years, and collect those for tax money.

And since most criminals are repeat offenders you'll probably get arrested again, helped by the fact you're now in the system with a SIN and they get to make money off you all over again the next time you go through the system.

Sure, but the real question is, do they make more money with you on ice then they would by selling your organs at blackmarket prices?

And your used 'ware prices, too. Remember kids, it helps to have cyber and bio that they can't extract without killing you - but not by much.

Guys, you're getting too gory. Just think of the bottom line. For example you're paid 50 /day/inmate. But it only costs you 10/day/inmate to feed them.

So it's in your best interest to keep them healthy-medical adds to costs- so no fights or riots. If they happened, put 'em down fast.

And if that runner who just got sent in for 5-8years happens to have cutting edge cyber, well, lets run a few tests on it and sell the feed back to the highest bidder. Sure Ares might not like it if we're willing to sell the specs of the flaws we found on the market but they can bid too.

I think the prison at the start of "Batman Begins" is an average to above average 3rd world prison camp. I remember seeing people referring to it as death camp, whihc shows they just don't have a good idea that the wealthy West lives different than the 3rd world.

Which is why my character has a legal SIN & a shyst---oops, excuse me, a retained duly authorised legal advisor/representative on speed-dial.

They may think that, but that's not they act. It scares the hell out of them, as they see the medical costs exploding and the total budget static. I'm peripherally involved with the telemedicine program to deal with hepatitis in state prisons. But the issue of huge numbers of old prisoners is the likely budget buster.

50 a day to house a prisoner? Let's see...

That's 18,212.5 (I multiplied by 364.25, to account for leap years) nuyen per year per prisoner.

The very minimum you can pay each Lone Star officer is 24,000 a month. This is the bare minimum, because with anything less, he won't even be able to make a Low lifestyle. And like hell anybody's going to work for so little money he has to resort to squatting part of the year. Especially in such a dangerous occupation of prison guard. So let's double it to 48,000 .

Now, assuming Lone Star simply relies on their own High-Threat Response Teams to put down riots, the prisons could maybe sneak by with one guard per twenty inmates, but that's only if you like letting the prisoners basically run the place, just being unable to leave. This is just straight muscle guards, not specialists like mages (you're gonna need 'em, and they cost big nuyen - like hell any wage-mage is going to risk his life daily with prisoners for less than he could make doing research with a megacorp, or as a Shadowrunner) or security hackers and spiders rigging the building.

Now, that's a constant cost, and remember, you need someone on shift at all times. So even if you take an enormous risk and run twelve hour shifts, that's two guards for every 20 prisoners, and round up to 2.5 because you'll need swing guards available to fill shifts, weekends, and if someone just comes down sick.

So, twenty prisoners earn you, as a baseline, 364,000 , and the guards alone cost 120,000 of that. That's about a third, on guard salary alone.

Now, you have to provide for maintenance - of the facilities, of the security units (drones, cameras, and the like), guards' equipment (their riot gear, equipment, etcetera). Bear in mind, the less guards, the more the prisoners get away with, in terms of trashing the place. The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay is a really good example of what a Lone Star prison is like.

At the very least, the facilities must be livable. If they get too bad, the prisoners will riot, and that will mean an HTR team will be called, and that not only means extra costs (HTR teams don't swat prisoner riots for their regular pay, bubba), and it also means the UCAS inspectors are coming down to see what happened, perform headcounts so they can downrate your pay, and so forth. So, riots are costly, you want to avoid them.

So, we'll assume each prisoner is living a 'squatter' lifestyle. 500 a month, they cost 6K a year to house. That's another 120,000 a year off of those twenty prisoners, and that's going to have the inmates really pissed off. Youch.

And then we get to the fun part - medical care! Maintaining a prison at the minimum lifestyle conditions livable without the prisoners cannibalizing one another and waging internal prison warfare daily, the prisoners will still be angry. Gangs will form along any lines imaginable, and they will do battle for whatever luxury can be found, from (most likely) smuggled drugs and beetles to (very unlikely) a couple of bunraku tossed into their cells by the guards to placate them. (though not entirely unbelievable...)


Hospitalizations cost 500 per day, and if they somehow get really, really tore up but still are breathing they cost a whole grand a day. Okay, let's suppose that over the course of a year, those hypothetical twenty prisoners are going to spend forty days recieving hospitalized care - an average of two days in the hospital per year per crook -, and ten days recieving ICU care. That's another 30,000 - not as much as most of the rest, but still noticable.

So, let's see.
Profit (yearly) per 20 crooks: 364,000
Expenses (yearly, basic) per 20 crooks: 270,000
Total profit (before catastropic costs): 94,000!

Good grief! You're making only 94K profit per twenty crooks, and that's before catastrophies?

And there will be catastrophies. Major fights will happen, inmates will be killed, HTR will be called. You will lose the money for the inmates who die, you will be fined per dead head by the UCAS, who will come in and do a body count, you will have to dole out combat pay to all the guards and HTR teams who participate, you will have to replace drones, cameras, prison equipment, etcetera, that got trashed on the way. Oh, and speaking of dead heads, you'll have to pay out compensation to next-of-kin for dead guards - and there will be dead guards, and you'll have to hire and train a replacement. One good riot, and you very swiftly run into the red. And this is barring a real catastrophie, such as a Shadowrunner somehow being incarcerated with most of her abilities intact and effecting his own escape over the dead bodies of most of your onsite guards, or a Shadowrun team effecting a break-out of a colleauge or a target. Nor does it take into account that mages and security riggers are definately not going to work for less than a middle lifestyle.

All in all, it's very easy to see the Star quietly organlegging (and secondhand cyberwaring) any Shadowrunners who come in, as well as organlegging the majority of the trolls (I guess despite the image, the metatype isen't really given to crime), and especially physically fit specimens who come in. Not only are they an instant cash injection (prime organs means prime price, and 'ware is very, very lucrative, especially since there's always the chance you might get to secondhand the same piece of 'ware more than once), but it cuts down on the violence and general mayhem inside the prisons.

Oh, and Shadowrunners can't exactly bust out a colleauge who's been carved up and apportioned out for a profit, can they?

There are a hell of a lot of assumptions, and numbers being pulled out of asses in that post.

But they can organleg the family of the guy who approved the policy. Remember that the whole point of police forces is to de-escalate the problem. That's one of the reasons that you can see organized crime working hand in hand with Lone Star. All that running around and shooting is bad for business.

So, I can buy organlegging some guy if them make some trouble, and more importantly letting it be quietly known that trouble makers will get most of their organs cut out, but premptive organlegging is just asking for trouble.

This is the Sixth World. If everybody did what was good for bisuness, it would evolve back into what we have now, with elves and orks and trolls.

It's also the Sixth World, where we like it GRIMNDARK, so GRIMNDARK that Warhammer 40K looks upon us with pride. Hence, pre-empive organlegging is good.

And Fortune, the 50 nuyen figure was provided earlier by Snow Fox. I went from there, using the lifestyle numbers and hospitalization costs from SR4's BBB. And there may be assumptions, but we're probably not modeling a straight 20-inmate, three-guard prison, we're probably modeling a vast and evil Hollywood-style place where they may have a thousand inmates! Over that many inmates, the numbers I asspulled look pretty good. And we're going off some very basic assumptions that are sound:

1: Inmates are worth alive and healthy to Lone Star.
2: Lone Star, for whatever reason, prefers to collect the "incarceration" money rather than organlegging all the big and tough guys and saving space and energy for the weak and unfit criminals they may easily contain.
3: Lone Star, preferring to actually make money, uses the bare minimum of facilities and staff they can get away with using without the prisoners literally siezing the entire facility.

Therefor, these assumptions lead me to believe that the inside of the prisons are essentially the Barrens in miniature, with Lone Star on-hand to cruise on in and bust up the worst of it. The criminals own the inside of the prison, the staff mainly stay to bunkered, secure areas you coulden't crack without the benefit of a rocket launcher, and if they do have to go 'in there', they go in armed with shotguns, SMGs, and in force. And they probably ain't packing gel rounds.

Therefor, the prisoners' accomodations have to be at least Low in nature. Any less and they'd break into general disorder and chaos, or worse - organized disorder and chaos - and storm the gates, forcing a High Threat Response to deal with the situation. For reasons I explained above (HTR teams cost money, likely that some of the staff will be killed, possible that some of the HTR will be killed, and it's very likely you'll have to spend a LOT of money repairing the damage, as well as being fined per dead crook by the UCAS federal/local officials who have contracted with you to incarcerate their scum but keep them alive and healthy), you need to avoid a general riot at all costs; hence, giving them anything less than a Low lifestyle will probably incude them to riot and attempt a mass break-out.

Iirc, any sign of rioting is taken care of swiftly and severely with painful aural bombardment, remote controlled RAS override systems and maybe even healthy doses of neuro-stun gas.

Whatever happened to braindance? Braindance really does only cost 10 /day, after the initial 800 paid to Sloppy Joe the local brain surgeon.

Failing that, keep in mind that LS is not so limited as the real police are today. Let us assume they don't just stick everyone on ice, but rather keep them conscious in the real world and able to do things like punch each other in the face. It will very quickly become a hierarchy - LS makes up the biggest, toughest gang. If you threaten LS, they will grab you in the middle of the night with a mix of guards and drones, then they will grab all of your friends, your lunch buddies and your love troll. They will hang all of you by your testicles in the middle of the room and beat you with cattle prods until you either die or you are unable to walk under your own power. If you die, they harvest what they want and leave the remains for a few days as a pleasant reminder. If you live, they cut you down and let the rest of the population do whatever THEY want to do.

Under Lone Star gang comes whatever the dominate prison gangs are. They are smart enough to play buddy buddy with the keepers, because that's how they get their drugs, beetles and so on, plus a knife now and again or whatever. The top gangs like the status quo and will actively defend lone star, since as long as they defend lone star, they get the gear to piss on everyone else.

Under them no one cares, because those are either the loners who lock themselves in their cages, the joy boys, or the gangs that regularly get rolled over.

Sure now and again LS has to put down a whole gang. That's a lot of people to fall down steps! But it's the price of business, and the gang that takes its place won't make the same mistake.

Also keep in mind, a rigger with a dozen dalmations is going to be a lot cheaper and a lot safer than a dozen guards. Yeah, you got a knife? What are you going to do against 6 vehicle armor, a combat shotgun and a grenade launcher?

I imagine that mages are either recruited immediately to be supportive of Lone Star, or are kept in solitary confinement their entire stay. Trolls might be worth the risk, but mages definitely are not. Same with adepts. No mages or adepts means no mage guards required.

Guys you're over thinking the prison thing again. This Turkish or Sudnaese. Jamb a lot of people into a small space, feed them a gruel just enough to keep them alive but not to given them strength to act up. maybe keep them manacled to limit mobility etc. Ever seen the original Four Feathers?

One per 150? Isen't that just begging for an enterprising criminal mastermind to organize the prisoner population in a general revolt?


I dunno. I think it might be easier simply to have all the prisoners hooked up to a massive VR machine where they can do whatever they like inside a simulated world...

According to a quote in this article, in Harris County, TX the target ratio is 48:1, a ratio which was apparently being exceeded at the time of writing. I'm having difficulty finding a national average.

~J

Anyone who talks to pretty much any CO around the country will find that 1:20 would be a dream ratio.

If you are hooking them nito VR why let them control the world? Why not just feed sponsered corp re-education into their brains?

Also one of the assumptions is that LS will get fined if an inmate isn't kept healthy or dies, I'm not sure that I agree that the UCAS would do anything other then stop payment, after all, what do they care about some formerly SINless slob that got ganked while rotting away in some LS hellhole, if they cared about the SOB's metahuman rights in the first place then they wouldn't have contracted out to a company with a rep for shooting first and never asking questions later.

Also people say that widespread organlegging would be bad for a company, why exactly? Big A's to-the-death bloodsports are a big hit on the trid despite being illegal, and the fact that they perfom metahuman sacrifices (Aren't those also on the trid or have I crossed a couple of brain cells?) doesn't really seem to have kept them from being one of the most loved Mega in the Sixth World. This isn't America, circi 2007, its a different society governed by different rules and a level of apathy that has quite likely crossed the line into outright cruelity.

... Actually, Ravor's got a good point...

A damn good point.

Come through Lone Star and you have a SIN? You get sent to the Nice Place up near Sea-Tac with a lot of armed guards and relatively decent standards of living.

No SIN (before booking)? You get sent to the Not Nice Place that's outside of even the barrens, where they hook you up to a nice VR machine that raeps your mind via Psych IC to be completely loyal and loving to the company.

Then they put you to work, either as slave labor, or maybe even (if they mindraep you enough) as a beat cop...

Yeah. They get paid for incarcerating this person by the UCAS, and they get the benefit of whatever labor the schmuck does for you. And if they already have a datajack, it's essentially free. If they don't... Well, that's what trodes are for, so it's still essentially free.

Not really, fortune.

SINner's typically have people who actually care about them, and are themselves SINners in a position to raise at least some kind of legal fuss if they dissapear.

Newly-minted Criminal SINners typically don't have anyone who cares about them.



Remember, dystopia. It's not really about what rights you have, it's about the ability you or others have to enforce those rights.

There's a difference between "dystopia" and "fucking stupid," though.

Yeah.

"Fucking Stupid" is trying to incarcerate unruly prisoners who have no prospects at a future and who will try to basically run your prison system as a ghetto barrens.

"Dystopia" involves stripping them of their personality and putting them to work, collecting a cheque each month for keeping them, as well as whatever goods or value you can get from their labor, all the while they love the corporation (you) and would never even contemplate doing anything that would hurt the bottom line.

Nobody who has the power and the will to enforce their rights cares about 99.99999999% of the formerly-SINless that you do this to. You may piss off a couple of Shadowrunners who might be able to take some action against you, but that's the price of doing bisuness. Then again, when you catch a 'Runner, you don't mind-rape them to the point that they're useless except as hard labor, you give them some kinder, gentler psych treatments to make them like your company, and keep them around as your own personal deniable asset. Or, if they're well-connected to people who can do something to you about it, you just blackmail them into doing a run in exchange for their freedom.

Can you give any quotes to back up any of that? As far as I know, there is no difference between a SINner that has been convicted (Criminal SIN) and a former SINless that has been arrested (Criminal SIN). The are both now considered SINners, with the same rights.

Becoming a criminal (and acquiring a SIN) does indeed make you a full citizen. Can you find anything in the books that states otherwise? Keep in mind that there are specific limits on just what types of creatures are eligible for SINs and citizenry, and usually Spirits and Sasquatch do not fit the requirements.

Well, the first interesting thing to note is SR3 page 238, where it says that "most SINless arrestees" are issued a criminal SIN (emphasis added). That's not what you asked for, but it shows that there is some subset of arrestees that are not issued such a SIN. Of course, that is just arrest, not incarceration.

It should be added that NAGNA makes reference to repeated attempts to make credit fraud qualify for the death penalty. It also says the attempts have been unsuccessful, but it's obviously not unthinkable in the society of the 2050s.

I can't actually find any meaningful information on Criminal SINs (a bunch of stuff is described as difficult for them, but it's often not directly compare to how easy it is for the SINless, and it's never indicated whether it's because of something lacking in the SIN or just the fact that it's registered as a criminal SIN), but that was the most interesting thing I found while looking, so I wanted to toss it out there.

~J

I put this forth for discussion ...

Why is Lord Torgo alive and well, and even in command of the Spikes, even though he is currently incarcerated? One would think that he would be a prime target for the type of treatment or disposal being advocated by some in this thread, once he was rendered harmless.

I put it down to a few things.

First, the fact that the guards are a lot closer to the gangs than a lot of people in this thread seem to think. ShadowDragon expresses the opinion that it's ridiculous for a guard to get paid less than 24k¥ a year, but the real cops get sixteen weeks of training and new guys get ¥20,000 a year. To be fair, SD uses SR4 costs in his numbers, which doubled the cost of a Low lifestyle, bringing it out of reach of these entry-line cops. Nevertheless, Middle lifestyle is out of reach.

That's the low end. What's the high? Well, the salary cap, the hard limit on what you get paid if you're in the enforcement arm, is 48k¥/year. Just for reference, a Middle lifestyle costs 60k¥/year.

Also note that these are actual enforcement arm officers, not prison guards. Guards require less specialized training and overall capability than the enforcement arm, and would consequently command less pay. They would also be less likely to risk their lives, and the Stanford Prison Experiment suggests their attitude towards the less powerful of the prisoners may be, shall we say, not precisely the attitude one expects toward another who is regarded as a (meta)human being.

Now we get around to Lord Torgo. Lord Torgo is Lord Torgo. The Spikes, a gang of at most around 25 (according to SRComp), battle with and avoid being exterminated by a gang numbering between 100 and 200 in Seattle alone, described as "display[ing] military-style precision" and with "SOTA military equipment for any operation they undertake"—check that "SOTA military equipment" again, and keep it in mind the next time you think the corps can stomp the gangs with impunity—and Lord Torgo is the toughest and smartest of the lot. Adding the possibility of retribution from the rest of the gang to the already considerable direct threat he poses, I submit that the location at which he is incarcerated simply does not have the muscle to enforce this sort of treatment on him.

~J

Technically, you only have to pay every other month of lifestyle, since you can't fail for missing one month's payments (you can't roll less than 1 on a d6), and if you pay the next month the counter resets. So Low-Lifes can make it on 12k a year and Middles on 30k. So a guy making 24k with a part-time job (like say, working security at a bar) can pull down a Middle Lifestyle.

The way the UCAS is written in the system, they aren't that dystopian on paper. Corruption might allow for the types of things mentioned in this thread, but it wouldn't be SOP. (There are places in the 6th World where it would be SOP, where being arrested could mean organlegging, enslavement or worse, but its a pretty big rewrite of the setting to make that the UCAS, or anywhere on the North American continent. That's pushing it even for Aztlan.)

The UCAS is whatever the ref and player invisage it to be.
The debate so far demonstrates a section of the DS community that like things darker than others. Just because it was the USA seems to be blinding some to the possiabilities of the oppression within the system. In a world where the Disassemblers exist there is room for darker things if you want.

Created for the run that sparked this thread. Hope it comes in useful.

Samson T950 prisoner transport

Body 6
Handling 5/12
Armour 4
Sensor 2
Pilot 2
Seating 2b/30 bench, 2 reenforced bench
chassis heavy transport
Entry 2d/1x
load 6100kg
Speed 72
Accel 5
Sig 3
fuel 500ltr diesel
Econ 6

Accessories : Two remote mini turrets 1cf ammo bin, drone rack for two body 2 drones, rating six maglocks, rigger adapt, radio, electronics port.

The Samson T950 is the latest Lone Star mass prisoner transport. Capable of transporting 60 convicts, including up to four trolls. The Samson is armoured and armour to discourage and prevent escape in transit.
The recent addition of a enclosed drone rack to the T750 design has allowed for further fire power, commonly in the form of two strato 9 rotor drones, for personal protection and prisoner retrieval when faced with go gangs.
The prisoner compartment has the seats facing the rear for easy observation for the guards and added safety in a crash. Each is seat is equipped with a maglock prisoner restraint point.
The Samson also has a internal grill separation wall and maglocked door between the guards and the convict section. Allowing for security and ease of observation/weapons discharge.

Its now SOP for there to be a manual back up driver to the rigger. A runner team used a zapper strip on the coach down in Dallas. Fried the rigger to jack their mark to freedom.
Bobo

There's two to four guards on any given run depending on the convict shipment size. There is always at least one guard with a shot gun and occasionally one with a rifle. All carry side arms. There the ones next to the back door facing forwards, with seat belts. Sons of slitchs.
Jail bird

One in five runs the Samson will have guardian spirits under the chief guard's command. This is more likely with a high profile prisoner or if there's a magician con on board. The Star have learned their lesson after a spate of magically achieved rescues across the UCAS and CAS.

Edit* 280, 000

Price?

~J

Just browsed over alot of posts, short on time at moment. But alot of whats been talked about is based on the arrested party not having a SIN. Now I don't recall exactly were but I remember from first or second edition a mention of once your arrested, if you don't have a SIN, one is assigned to you. (anyone with photographic memory might be able to quote the book lol)

EDIT: Went back and found 2-3 references, its strictly a criminal SIN and Does Not provide the same rights and privileges.

I think ShadowDragon8685 summed it up rather nicely, even if you assume that a Criminal SIN does grant the same rights as a "real" SIN it still doesn't matter unless the formerly SINless slob has someone with the money to either bribe Lone Star or pay a lawyer to bribe Lone Star for them, in the Sixth World you get what you pay for if you're lucky.

Of course the same idea applies to SINner Imates as well, but SINners are far more likely to have the money to make the necessary bribes.

*Edit*

As for what is and isn't Canon, well in my opinion Shadowrun has tried to have their cake and eat it too in that reguard depending on what author wrote which sourcebook. Is Lonestar a group of thugs that don't even pay enough to give their grunts a steady lifestyle? Do they shoot first and ask questions never? Are wageslaves really slaves that can't even quit their job without buying back their employment contract? Are other corps actually legally required to return a fleeing wageslave to her previous employer if captured? IS Big A really one of the most loved megas on the planet? Are too-the-death bloodsports really that popular with the masses despite being "illegal"? Is it really common to commute to work in a relatively "good part" of town and see three muggings, two murders, and a rape? And what does a society where all that is true really look like and how does it apeal to American 2007 gamers?

*Edir 2.0*

Also something to remember is that the gangs in the Sixth World act and have power far exceeding their stated numbers, probably caused by an oversight during design and simply never been corrected.

Wow. Three valid debate points, two flames, and a prisoner transport complete with Shadowtalk.

Note: The "two flames" thing was there just to sound good.

Anyway, there were some good points brought up. The point about only having to make every other payment on the rent strikes my as valid, in a power-gamer way. Eventually I'd think the landlord would note that you're literally only paying him half the time, and he'd hire some mugs to come 'round and beat you senseless. Then again, if you work for the 'Star and have a badge, he might be willing to let it 'slide', if only because of the fact that you provide some measure of additional security, and (depending on whose interpretation of Shadowrun we're using) he's connected to the biggest gang of all.

As for Lord Torgo, I would surmise that he is alive only because he is valuable to the person keeping him alive. 25 guys with mil-spec gear who routinely avoid extermination by gangs four and eight times their size aren't really all that special when you have High-Threat Response teams and worse to call upon. Sure, he's got the equavilent of an elite military black-ops team at his command, but Lone-Star has their High-Threat Response teams, Knight-Errant has Firewatch, Renraku has their Red Samurai.... The list goes on and on. In the big game, they're small fish. Bigger perhaps than most Shadowrunning teams, but still small fish, and if they tried it, they'd get a fast and terminal lesson in who to peck and who not to peck - called the pecking order.

Granted, they'd probably be able to spring their Lord from the hoosegow if they tried! But they would not be able to avenge his mindraping or organlegging on the corporation responsible to any satisfying extent, perhaps possibly finding the one or two frags who threw the switch or cut him up.


As for my numbers, I did use SR4. You can safely halve the numbers on guard salaries to do a quick conversion to SR3 - that makes it a bit more profitable, I suppose. Still, nobody's going to work, especially not in a really dangerous profession like, Lone Star Meat Shield or Lone Star Prison Guard, for less than is required to put beans on the table, a roof over the table, and afford the occasional drop of bliss that life seems to be all that makes life worth living in the Sixth World.


And again, a lot of us seem to have varying, sometimes widely varying, views upon what exactly Shadowrun is. This is the result of a wide range in how Shadowrun was actually written, depending primarily on factors such as when we seriously took an interest in the hobby, who (if anyone) introduced us to the hobby, and so forth.

I, myself, caught up with Shadowrun on the very tail-end of SR3, during the time when SR4 was being greatly bemoaned and bitched about, as those who are invested in an older edition of a game tend to do when a masssive rules revision to the point of requiring a full re-write are wont to do. I did this solely at my own initiative, having recently discovered the Kega LAZARUS emulator for Sega Genesis, and the Shadowrun (Sega) ROM, and remembering "waitaminute, this is based off an RPG!"

Naturally, that RPG, and those impressions of Shadowrun, gave me a very different view of SR than you may have. For me, for example, magic is an obscure, often-ineffective piece of plot ex machina, not much more effective in PCs' hands than an Ares Predator is, but a piece of devestating firepower in the hands of the DM. Technology and cyber is what it's all about, and especially runing the Matrix - which incidently, is where I get my other real feel for Shadowrun - from the movie, the Matrix.

As far as what I gleaned from sourcebooks, I hold the understandings that Aztechnology are the purest form of scum of the earth that you can find, for some reason beloved by the people even as nearly the entire Shadows community despises them and refuses to work for them except in the direst of circumstances, Ares is 'all right', at least as far as Megas go, you don't ever deal for or against Saeder-Krupp, and other than that, good luck, try not to get organlegged. Downtowns are 'basically' safe, what with random Lone Star undercover officers making all sorts of shady deals you're best advised to just walk away from, and aside from the occasional problem you can usually avoid if you keep your head down and keep moving, you stand a good enough chance of reaching your destination alive. Your odds go up of course if you're decent or near-Prime runner material.

I think one problem here is that we all have different impressions of Shadowrun, most of them validly supported by some drek or another that somehow got churned out through some writer or another at some point. We may be holding on to ideas and/or prejudices held over from older editions, we may be suffering from "Never Gonna Convert Itis" regarding the new edition(s), and yes, some of us may be having a hard time believing that in something so little removed from the 2007 U.S. of A could become so bleak and evil in so short a time. Then once we do grasp that, we go wide on the other side of the scale and want mass organleggings or Psychotropic IC applications as SOP.