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Phaeton
http://smurgen.kj-soft.com/rick/pub/1069043396832.jpg

http://smurgen.kj-soft.com/rick/pub/1069053440170.jpg

If anyone could point out if they've seen these before and where, PLEASE TELL ME!!!!111 Thank you. biggrin.gif



~Phaeton
Raptor1033
how would you hold on to that first one? the thing sticking out the back would hinder a proper grip. both were probably normal handguns before they were modifed for either a movie or by someone with waaaay too much time on their hands. the first is probably based on any given modern smith & wesson pistol and the second looks to be loosely based on the Olympic Arms OA98. both modified with semicool looking grips that are completely unusable. if you wanna browse a place with a fair amount of pics go here.
Phaeton
I have no idea...The first one resembles a weapon from the Ghost in the Shell manga, though. Especially the weird ammo clip.
Fix-it
Something tells me those aren't real guns...

I'm probably wrong though. so don't mind me.
Phaeton
I doubt they are. But, if they're from any movie/game/anime/TV show/manga/comic book/movie/whatever, I want to make them to Shadowrun stats. I just need to know what they are for purposes of what to name it. Ah well.
Crusher Bob
The first gun is for GITS, I would guess the second one is too. Seburo MN-23 might give you a hand.
Chodav
The first one looks more Beretta-ish than S&W-ish, though it's a fake in any event. The second has an ounce more credibility - it looks like an M-16 family variant . . . Unless, of course, you know how the gas-operated recoil system in an M-16 variant works, at which point you realize it's a fake, too.

Real, fake, who cares? This whole forum is devoted to a game, after all! The first one looks grossly unbalanced and difficult to wield. It has no intrinsic "pointability". Firing it would not be natural or reflexive, and that's what ergonomic firearm design is all about. For that matter, it's ugly. wink.gif

Now, number two looks just plain cool! Maybe something in the SMG family. Range and damage are more-or-less standardized for weapon families . . . ammo capacity would be 20 if that were an M-16 variant, so low by SMG standards . . . weight (assuming polymer construction on non-mechanical components) would be on the low side, too - three-ish?

Do you own Cannon Companion? The firearm design rules are a bit cumbersome, but fun all the same. You could have that new toy stat'ed out in no time!

(Foregrip provides -1 recoil compensation, which a lightweight like number two needs baaaaad.)
Hero
Those are the sickest firearms I have seen in a long while, both would be held much in the fashion of the FN P90. I think those would be best converted using Spudmans FCG, but would be possible with the FCG in Cannon Companion.
Lilt
I don't recognise them, but I could try and help you convert them.

The first one is presumably some form of particularily heavy pistol. Give it a high power and an extended clip. Probably a heavy barrel too.

The second looks like a smg with a foregrip. Give it a pit of increaced concealability too.

As they both look pretty f**king shweet I'd give them both smartlink-2s because I can.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
The first gun is for GITS, I would guess the second one is too. Seburo MN-23 might give you a hand.

...Sweet mother of GOD, I love that man Shirow... biggrin.gif grinbig.gif rotfl.gif
Fresno Bob
The first one is a Seburo SMG, a nonexistant gun developed for Manga.

The second one is an assault rifle, probably seburo as well.

Seeing as how they aren't real guns, I'd just give them both thirty round clips, make the SMG 9mm, and the Assault Rifle 5.56mm. Also, give them whatever names you want.
Fresno Bob
Also, you'd be able to hold the first one quite easily. It appears the gun looks something like this from the top:

____/

With the clip attaching the the forward slash, and the grip being on the straight part, making the gun holdable.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Voorhees)
The first one is a Seburo SMG, a nonexistant gun developed for Manga.

The second one is an assault rifle, probably seburo as well.

Seeing as how they aren't real guns, I'd just give them both thirty round clips, make the SMG 9mm, and the Assault Rifle 5.56mm. Also, give them whatever names you want.

That's one weird SMG. And DUDE. The second one is TINY. Imagine how big your hand is. Imagine holding the gun. It's the size of an SMG...
Phaeton
QUOTE (Voorhees)
The first one is a Seburo SMG, a nonexistant gun developed for Manga.

The second one is an assault rifle, probably seburo as well.

Seeing as how they aren't real guns, I'd just give them both thirty round clips, make the SMG 9mm, and the Assault Rifle 5.56mm. Also, give them whatever names you want.

9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...
Fresno Bob
How would you know how big it is? Theres nothing in the picture to reference it against.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE
9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...


Er, 9mm>5mm.
Hasaku
QUOTE (Voorhees)
QUOTE
9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...


Er, 9mm>5mm.

We can make some assumptions about size of the second gun from the magazine. If we assume it's firing NATO standard 5.56mm ammunition, then that is one hell of a small weapon. It's only got a barrel length a little longer than the cartridges fer chrissake! If you're planning to make those with firearm design rules, I'd say max levels of barrel reduction are a must. Does that automatically cause a power and range reduction? If not, slap those on too, beause there's no way those rounds are gonna get up to full speed in that thing or get enough spin to stabilize.

I'd give it maybe 6M base damage, SMG ranges if I'm feeling generous.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Voorhees)
QUOTE
9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...


Er, 9mm>5mm.

Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful.
Fresno Bob
Hmm, I didn't examine the second one too closely. That is a pretty short barrel. I'd agree with the 6M ruling, maybe even shorten the range to SMG or Shotgun plus some meters, or something like that.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE
Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful


These statements are true. Although the P90 fires pretty fast and has a huge clip, so you could rip someone up nice with it.
Crusher Bob
IIRC the seburo smg used 4 or 5 mm AP rounds, and was supposed to be one of the few SMGs that was really useful against a combat borg. Dealing with full borgs who don't ahve too many vital parts, don't feel pain, and are armored up is going to be a problem...
Fix-it
bah. I still prefer my trusty Hydra rocket pods.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Fix-it)
bah. I still prefer my trusty Hydra rocket pods.

biggrin.gif grinbig.gif rotfl.gif
Austere Emancipator
Like people have said, they're real world guns with useless shit put on to make them look kewl. If you really wish to find out what pistol that is under all the crap in the first picture, browse Securityarms.Com for a while, looking at trigger guards and safeties. Anyway, it's a Light Pistol with a sucky concealability and a rather high weight. Yay!

And the 2nd has been pretty much covered already. An M16 with just about everything stripped off, and then some useless crap has been slapped on. It is worth noting that it'd be a lot smaller still if you'd strip the useless crap off (mainly the carrying handle and the wavy rubber fore-end)... Like Hasaku said, 6M and SMG ranges should do it -- too bad all AR carbines are like that already in canon. 2kg would be plenty weight for it, since a La France M16K (which still has the telescopic stock and a slightly longer barrel) weighs 2.5kg.

I do hope that the "Seburo SMG" is not the first one ([Edit]Bah, someone already said it is...[/Edit]), because that sure as hell can't be any combat-borg-killer weapon. A good anti-armor small arm has to be long and heavy. Preferably 600mm+ barrel, enough space behind the magazine (if the first one was an actual weapon, it wouldn't work at all because there's no space for a bolt, let alone a decent recoil spring), etc.

I'd rather use something like Barret M82A2, or some other bullpup, semi-auto, .50BMG rifle, loaded with HEIAP against an opponent with heavy armor and no vital parts. A SMG is truly the wrong tool for the right job.
Raptor1033
for the base gun of the second gun go here then click on retail catalog, ar/pcr firearms and kits and it's the OA-98 pistol, second to last on the list.
Austere Emancipator
If it is the OA-98, then either there are different models of the OA-98 available that don't look much like that in the Retail Catalog, or whoever made the second gun did a lot more work than he would've had to. The finish is (slightly) different, the mag well is different, what little you can see of the whole receiver assembly is different. Unless you know for a fact that the gun underneath that crap is the OA-98, I rather think that they've just cut most of the barrel, fore-end and the whole stock out of any old M16, M4 or M177.

And BTW, could someone with more intimate knowledge of the M16-style trigger group tell me whether the second gun has a Safe-Semi-3rnd Burst group, a Safe-Semi-Full group or a Safe-Semi? That would help immensely in figuring out the gun underneath.
Crusher Bob
Unfortunately, you can't carry your M82 with you all the time (nor get it into the car/house/cave/whatever). The real question should be: 'is there a better way of making an anti-borg gun in an smg sized package than one firing small caliber, high-AP rounds?'
Austere Emancipator
Hey, the M82A2 is only 1.4 meters long! wink.gif

Yeah, it's not very handy in tight quarters. If I couldn't carry that, I'd go with a G3KA4 with very light APDS rounds. If that too was too big and there were combat borgs around, I simply wouldn't go there...
Siege
QUOTE (Voorhees)
QUOTE
Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful


These statements are true. Although the P90 fires pretty fast and has a huge clip, so you could rip someone up nice with it.

The P-90's primary selling feature (so I'm lead to believe) is the weapon's anti-body-armor capabilities.

The high magazine capacity is just an added plus, although I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of brass being ejected from the rear of the weapon.

-Siege
Chodav
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And BTW, could someone with more intimate knowledge of the M16-style trigger group tell me whether the second gun has a Safe-Semi-3rnd Burst group, a Safe-Semi-Full group or a Safe-Semi? That would help immensely in figuring out the gun underneath.

It's a safe-semi group. Probably modified from an AR-15 - they're cheaper and easier to come by in the civilian world than anything in the M-16 family.
Austere Emancipator
If it's safe-semi, then modifying such a weapon from anything in the M16 family wouldn't make any sense in the first place, now would it? wink.gif
Crusher Bob
Heh, I want something like a TU-33 that is never safe silly.gif
Fix-it
QUOTE (Siege @ Nov 27 2003, 04:24 PM)
QUOTE (Voorhees @ Nov 27 2003, 04:20 AM)
QUOTE
Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful


These statements are true. Although the P90 fires pretty fast and has a huge clip, so you could rip someone up nice with it.

The P-90's primary selling feature (so I'm lead to believe) is the weapon's anti-body-armor capabilities.

The high magazine capacity is just an added plus, although I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of brass being ejected from the rear of the weapon.

-Siege

Well, for one thing, you won't hit the guy next to you with your brass.

Hot brass down shirt=funny dance with loaded firearm.
Siege
This is true, but an instinctive reaction is to bring the weapon to shoulder to aim -- which means if something blocks the ejection port, it could get unpleasent.

Since I've never actually held or used one, I can't speak to the practicality of the design but it looks good on paper. Especially if you're fighting aliens in full body armor grinbig.gif

-Siege
Ol' Scratch
If I were going to design the first one as a Shadowrun weapon using the Cannon Companion, I'd just design it as an assault rifle (sadly, the SMG doesn't allow the two following options) with the bullpup configuration and shortened barrel design features. Then I'd make to give it only the SA/BF modes and maybe add in one or two points of improved concealability, shock pads and a gas-vent II and then have at it.

It's a cool-looking weapon, and style is everything in my book. smile.gif I see nothing wrong with using a cool picture and making a perfectly rules-acceptable weapon out of it who's major perk will be it's relatively high Concealability.
Traks
Guy with a sword looks even cooler.
Give all your players swords and let them charge the heavily-armed-top-of-the-art cyborg smile.gif

But yes, those weapons look horrible to shoot with.
Second one maybe could be usable, but pistol is a big no-no.
Unless there is some alien technology which allows to fire with antimatter rounds smile.gif
Sahandrian
QUOTE (Traks)
Unless there is some alien technology which allows to fire with antimatter rounds smile.gif

...We have one of those in our games...
Fresno Bob
Really? How much damage does it do? How much Antimatter does it fire with each shot?
Austere Emancipator
500D, -1/1km if it's a whole bullet made of antimatter. And the explosion happens at the point in which the anti-matter bullet is created.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE
500D, -1/1km


Sounds about right.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Siege)
This is true, but an instinctive reaction is to bring the weapon to shoulder to aim -- which means if something blocks the ejection port, it could get unpleasent.

You can see where the ejection port is in this picture. It looks like it's at least a good 10cm/4" from the end of the butt stock. In most situations there won't be anything there to block it if you're firing the weapon from the shoulder. Firing it while sitting might not be very good for your pants, though.
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
If it is the OA-98, then either there are different models of the OA-98 available that don't look much like that in the Retail Catalog, or whoever made the second gun did a lot more work than he would've had to.

And BTW, could someone with more intimate knowledge of the M16-style trigger group tell me whether the second gun has a Safe-Semi-3rnd Burst group, a Safe-Semi-Full group or a Safe-Semi? That would help immensely in figuring out the gun underneath.


I seriously doubt that it's a working OA-98. The barrel appears to be too short and there's also not enough room above it for the absolutely necessary recoil spring assembly (to avoid having the standard recoil spring buffer assembly stick out about seven inches behind the grip). The upper receiver also appears unusually small. I doubt that the thing fires real ammunition because in order to field-strip it, you'd have to remove that plastic foregrip every time. If it did fire, that foregrip would get real hot real fast and would likely warp or even melt off. It's probably just a model (I've seen this style before) or maybe even an Airsoft.

It is based on an M16 lower receiver, though. It's either a burst or full-auto trigger group (you can tell by the auto sear pin directly above the selector switch; semi-autos don't have it) can't tell which one for sure as the switch, in the safe position, covers the markings in the burst/auto position. 20 round magazine. The upper looks to me like it might be machined aluminum, with the plastic bits attached (carrying handle, foregrip, end cap, etc...). Anyone with an average machine shop could put something like that together fairly easily and attach it to a real M16 lower receiver. They could have used a real M16 lower and then attached that upper to it with the normal cross pins, or it could be a total plastic fabrication. Can't really tell either way, honestly. If there's a higher res image out there, I'd like to see it.

The other gun looks totally unreal. More than likely just a plastic model, though the trigger itself and the positions of the magazine release and the safety lever remind me somewhat of a walther PP, though I doubt that it is one.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Raygun)
[All the stuff I wanted to hear, and a lot I didn't know I wanted to hear.]

Nice... So much for those two. smile.gif
Raygun
Jackpot. The first one is a "Seburo C-X" from Appleseed. (It actually is based off of the Walther PP. Damn I'm good.) And the second is a "Close Quarters Battle Weapon Type-0 'Raisen'," a Poseidon in-house model. It's an Airsoft.
Austere Emancipator
notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif
Fresno Bob
I thought the first one looked kind of like a Walther. Man, screw the Seburo, I want this thing!

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/2F/rbm/rb1.html

Theres nothing in the world like existing guns with crazy barrel crap tacked on.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Voorhees)
Theres nothing in the world like existing guns with crazy barrel crap tacked on.

Except crappy, useless, ugly, guns with crazy barrel crap tacked on!

[Edit]Wow, turned out to be a real anime-weapon bashfest.[/Edit]
Fresno Bob
Hey, if there had never been guns with useless barrel crap tacked on, SR artists wouldn't have been able to rip off Robocop's gun for the Ares Predator, and then where would we be?

On a side note, what the hell is this thing?

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/5F/etogun/eto_1.html
Phaeton
QUOTE (Raygun)
Jackpot. The first one is a "Seburo C-X" from Appleseed. (It actually is based off of the Walther PP. Damn I'm good.) And the second is a "Close Quarters Battle Weapon Type-0 'Raisen'," a Poseidon in-house model. It's an Airsoft.

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Yay for Raygun!
Phaeton
All I have to say from looking at that page is that there IS such thing as compensating for something. Dayamn. eek.gif eek.gif eek.gif Especially with Vash's gun (which has always been an overweighted piece of drek in my opinion), and Alucard's guns from Hellsing (really huge...) But then again, I suppose they're not SUPPOSED to be practical...But if I want to have a compensatory firearm, it had better at least be assault rifle-sized or larger!!

[rant]

...I am going to relieve my brain right here of something I'd like to say. I will keep it as non-flamey as possible. If I posted it at any of the other sites I go to people would probably tell me to p**s off.

...What the heck is it with people and anime?! I mean, sure, it's something new and different, but Jesus H. Christ and his dear father may-he-bless-us-all, it seems BLOODY IDIOTIC CRAZY AT TIMES!!! Everything is whacky, not enough seriousness, usually, and HALF THE WEAPONS ARE HUGEARSE COMPENSATION DEVICES!!!> #*U%J%*()@#JUhtm srososrko (50 Mp deleted)

[/rant]

...Um, sorry mods. I just sorta had to get that outta my system. I'll fix it if you want.

But yes. Big guns are good. Except when they're HORRIBLY impractical. Like Vash's gun. grinbig.gif
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