If your going to do a Canadian City do a real one like Vancover. There's not enough fluff on it. Who care's about Toronto. And their hockey team sucs.

Vancouver's a NAN backwater in 2070, whereas Toronto is a major media center.

Go Leafs!

Finally got it yesterday.

First thought : "Neat, I was juste planning to play in Los Angeles tomorrow, let's talk a look."
Second thought : " Wait, where's Lockheed ?"

I got a handful of scenarii around Lockheed Corporation, which was as far as California Free State went, the most important corp in LA (this was prior to Horizon creation, indeed). Now that corp is completely out of the picture. There's not even the smallest mention of it. So, the city got smacked down several times, Horizon showed up and started gobbling everything. The appearance of Horizon is adressed in a way that I find, on a first read, fine. Still, its aerospace branch is far too thin to provide an explanation of where did all of Lockheed assets in the area (and in the rest of the world !) went.

I devoted way too much time (call that an understatement) caring for such things when I was myself freelancing not to be annoyed. I guess the corporate index is -more than ever- going to return (that's the third thought actually, having skimmed through the entire book : "Oh, that's a lot corporate info you have.").

I'll go back for the rest of the book later, I'm busy rewriting my campaign

Lockheed is still in the core books and Arsenal, so it must be there, and I don't think it was gobbled by Horizon.

Having read more thoroughly the Los Angeles chapter, I'm dubious. I can't help but thinking that this chapter of Corporate Enclaves who should describe LA is about nothing else than Katrina and Facebook. And I would say, I'd be a bit disappointed if the authors weren't going further than that for inspiration, while seemingly not even reading the previous sourcebooks, or not caring (yes, I'm on that Lockheed thing again here).
I never been to LA, so maybe I'm missing something about the feel of the city, which shouldn't make me surprised that after a major earthquake, riots, entrance of Pueblo troops, the Matrix crash, another major earthquake, and supernatural floods in the decade, the show goes on ? I guess so. The perspective is different once you reread what Target:Wasteland was saying about toxic spirits of Man in Los Angeles.

I think Corporate Enclaves is the stronger of the two currently released Core Settings Books. Love the cover. Runner Havens' big d00d and hawt chick firing guns was generic and could have been slapped on any product. Yeah, yeah, the Space Needle was in the background. Meh. But the Monobe arcology looming in the distance, spotlights shining, as three individuals go about their dirty deed in the foreground... that FELT like a location to me and a spooky one at that. The write-ups on both cities were excellent. LA-LA land felt like it would be fun to play around in (P2.0!) and Neo-Tokyo was almost ancient Rome-esque. While I'd prefer a larger chunk for NYC, I could certainly take what was presented and update the entry in NAGNA.

I'm shocked that it was as devoid of substance as the city is often erroneously presented.


I'd stick with what you had, Nath. The failure of the authors shouldn't ruin your (better-prepared) campaign.

I've just realised what bugs me about that cover - why are they holding their nefarious trade in the wide open? Got to disagree and say that the cover of Runner Havens was one of the best yet, imo and I prefer it by far to the Corporate Enclaves (and both are better than some other covers).

That said, I really liked Corporate Enclaves. More on Europort would be nice, but I found LA a great location for some dungeon hacking and I liked the P2 network, though I wouldn't want to run a game based around it. The book really got my GM juices flowing and that's got to be a good thing.

-K.

While I think the P2.0 brings something nice and new to SR, you are right in that the location info is not that deep. But then again, location books have been getting smaller and more general since 2nd edition. Seattle Sourcebook was incredibly detailed back in the day, and we still use it. Sure a few things need updating, but other than that, the city is still the same. I think the same could be said for LA. Unless the current material contrasts with previous without providing any explanation, I just work with both. A bit harder since you have to source multiple books, but whatever works for you.

Artistic license. Or maybe it's an over-sized novelty bento box.

Or perhaps they're in corporate territory and don't actually need to be clandestine.

Either of which detracts from the drama and tension of the scene do they not? Risk of discovery = tension. Not caring about discovery = no tension.

Anyway, before we get into another round of "it could be" justifications like we had with the Arsenal cover ("there are medical conditions that cause abnormally large hands and maybe the artist wanted to represent that"), I was only mentioning that what bugged me about the cover had finally clicked.

I was discussing something else with a friend just now and I realized what was wrong with what I read of L.A. in corp enclaves. Let me just quote myself here:


And I look at that, which are all in themselves reasons why L.A. deserved to be in Corp Enclaves (though still not more than New York), and yet none of that was in the book!

Instead we get, as Nath said, a chapter on Google and Facebook. What a waste.

But P2.0 is a new thing. It makes L.A. stand out, more than vast areas of industriy, service, and resort towns. Generic industry locations are a dime a dozen, important are the new bits, the differences to the other sprawls.

P2.0 isn't new, per se. It's actually just a slight tweak on rep systems that were introduced in Runner Havens.

The difference is that there are maybe two other cities in the world comparable to L.A. Tokyo, which has the advantage of a built-up downtown (and in generally, having like 10% of the L.A. sprawl's footprint for twice the population) and London (see Tokyo). Instead, it was a wankfest of Catalyst's new pet AAA.

I haven't lived in Tokyo (as opposed to many other cities), and I can't say I much care for the writeup in SoA. But it and what I saw in Corp Enclaves was sufficiently distinct that they could have bothered to actually, you know, write about Los Angeles without much fear of it being too similar to Tokyo.

You know what was one of the most fascinating things about the CFS book? The one thing they got right as a theme throughout the entire book?

Water.

And even with L.A. as a part of Pueblo, and Ute part of Pueblo, there is no way that the water situation could have gotten better. Especially since a major percentage of potable water (fusion reactor byproduct) is now gone. And in case I'm the only one who reads the New York Times, Lake Mead will be dry in fifty years. And with that is almost all of the rest.

You don't have to use a miracle water solution if you don't want to.

This is the biggest success of Corporate Enclaves. Sure it may not have detailed all the facilities that your runners will break into to steal the loot, but it set the city apart from all the other cities. It made it distinct. Not every GM has the narrative prowess to paint the world as we might like, and it isn't their fault. It's hard to express your imagination to others and still make an enjoyable gaming experience. P2.0 gives us an entirely new way to go about what we do. Sure, water might be the defining factor of life (like Dune), but for those who don't know how to portray that, P2.0 is very blatant and easy. It also allows your characters to relax somewhat and even be stars in their own right. The implications are far reaching and I can see it being quite fun.

What I didn't find interesting was Neo-Tokyo, as it really gave me nothing that Shadows of Asia hadn't already. It is completely unable to portray just how different Japan is. Having recently visited for a few weeks, I truly feel that it is the perfect SR location. Low crime rates, trusting populace, passive law enforcement, all of it is meat for the pros. It's hard to truly portray the feeling of the endless ocean of houses packed so close together sprawling out hundreds of miles from Tokyo. The way the buildings are so narrow and go straight up, looming over the narrow alleys bellow.

All that truly makes the setting unique ends up getting glossed over by the necessary Sixth World plot info.

See, that's the problem. The authors were paid to portray that. And didn't.


Ninja clans and interests/fetishes are not necessary Sixth World info.

You can easily adapt the water situation as you like. Or assume the quake opened up some (maybe magical) water reserveoir underground.

CG choose to focus on something other than water for L.A., that's all.

See, that's the problem. The authors were paid to portray that. And didn't. That's the whole point of these books. To help create a setting for people to play in, especially when the readers don't have any firsthand knowledge of the city. They could have introduced P2.0 anywhere. They could have waited until Unwired. But what's the point of writing a chapter on L.A., and then introducing elements that are meaningless to the setting? This the same kind of amateur mistake that plagued Seattle in Runner Havens. I'd almost suspect that creating a setting in North America as a setting is less of a goal than creating some random interchangeable plot devices.


Ninja clans and interests/fetishes are not necessary Sixth World info.

Edit: Wait. How did I do that?

I hate this new UI. I really do.

Very true.

Although, now that I think about it, while it doesn't convey tension, it seems to me that it conveys a certain style. I'm not good with visual design, so I'm not sure which (tension or style) is better for a book cover.

There is one thing I like about LA:

Joe 'The Dude' Kliebermann

I already have an encounter planned dealing with the runners running into him. I do like the movie The Big Lebowski.

I also do like the show concept, 'Temptation Teams' and I'm not a reality tv fan at all. I just like the idea of it and can't wait to see how my gaming group rp's the show.

I know that it is their job, but I also understand that they are human. If you don't like the book, it is perfectly alright for you to not buy it. That is the consumer's power in the marketplace. I understand somewhat your anger with lack of quality of content, but until they open development to the community, we will be left with what they feel is best.

As for P2.0 being anywhere you are right. I feel that they gave it to LA to a)help it shine out against the Emerald City, and b)Keep the Seattle shadows the way they have always been. Had they made Seattle the P2.0 city, Im not sure my characters would still be working there. I like having the option to go somewhere else in the world and do business differently.


I just laugh it off. Though I still haven't gotten it to run on my Treo, T.T

...this is the same way I feel about New Orleans where I spent just over a year. A city of stark contrasts with poor neighbourhoods butting right up against what would be considered A class ones. For example, theres St Charles uptown. The old boulevard down the centre of which runs the streetcar, is lined with towering "Live Oaks", beautiful old antebellum homes, and mansions. Walk a few blocks to the south (at least back when I was there) and find run down apartments, houses, and the ubiquitous "Shotguns" (so named because with the front & back door opened you could basically fire a shotgun through the house and not hit a wall). Apartments on St Charles were in the thousand $ & up range (1976-77). Not more than a half block off the boulevard, two friends & I rented a creaky but fairly spacious two bedroom apartment for 160$/month

Of course then there's the Vieux Carré with it's narrow streets & back alleys. Up front, there's Rue Burboun and St James Square for the tourists but behind all the dixieland and neon, the old quarter also has a much darker side as well (was in bar off the beaten path late one night where the bartender pulled out a .45 from underneath the bar to shoot a rat almost as big as a small dog. - & this was in the mid 70s).

...and you want a real bug city...? The cockroaches there own the place. Nothing seems to affect them short of fire, a heavy soled boot, or big hammer.

Yeah this would be an interesting site and I hope if included in Cities of Intrigue it is done somewhat right.

Maybe Awakened Haunts for New Orleans.

Im not sure how New Orleans will advance from its present state, but a magical version of old New Orleans sounds like a lot of fun. It has somewhat the feel of Paris in a swamp. Call of C'thulhu(the story) was also set partly in New Orleans, with the Voodoo murders in the bayou. Sounds like a TON of fun for some magical intrigue.

...wherever the city ends up (& yes, the big easy would fit Awakened haunts very well), I just hope they do a little research on the city's true background. I could easily see setting a campaign there.

The chapter in Target: Smuggler Havens was a good start and did cover its magical side quite well--no surprise given that it was written by Steve Kenson. But it's seriously out of date.

Target:Smuggler Havens gave a lot of N.O. info to create a game out of, and made for a fun setting. It'd be a shame if the plot lines weren't updated in the future, even if it's just a two page 'where we're at' like they did with New York. I have ot admit that I was really dissapointed with the New York section in Corp Enclaves. N.Y. should be the ultimate Corp city, instead it got shafted while L.A. got the lime light. I can understand why it was done that way. L.A. is home to the new AAA Horizon, which, as was pointed out earlier, got a big section to elp develop the corp's 'personality'. It also gave L.A. a very different feel from Seattle. While I liked P2.0 (although I hated it at first but sorta came around to it) I hate the idea of so many shadowruns being recorded and broadcasted. I just can't see the runners not taking out the drones with some active agents or even just jammers. But then again, that might be years of running Seattle styled games talking. After taking some time to look through the LA section, I did find there was a lot of stuff that I liked there. But I also agree that it seems less 'Corp Enclaves' and more "Horizon Home". That might have been the intention though. I think LA has a lot to work with, and just needs each GMs personal artistic license to make it workable.

Demonseed - I'm really hoping you'll put up some of your New York extras on your personal site like you did with Tibet. Any chance of that happening? Where's your site link now?

Not through Neo-Tokyo yet, and I only skipped ahead to read New York, but I'm dreading reading the other short sections as I don't want to get the same feeling of being shorted that I got from New York. I really think this book could have benefited from antoher 5-8 pages to fill those other sections out more.I didn't feel much was added to New York than what was already in older products. I can see having to put that general info out there, rather than forcing new players to find old books, but I think that does worst in the long run since older players get little new, and I think it likely means New York is less likely to get any more special attention in the future since it's "already been addressed".

I've by no means finished the book though, and haven't really had the tie to get into hunting up little plot hooks and the tidbits Synner tends to put in there yet, so I'm still optimistic.

How about ports? Did it mention the port situation?

LA's ports generate far more wealth for the city than its movie industry. This was originally a port city, after all, and it still handles a significant fraction of the world's goods. And yet in an instant all of that apparently got flooded out. Or did it? No one seems to know, or care; all I'm hearing about is Runner Reality TV. Any word on what happened to the ports of Long Beach and LA?

How about the aerospace industry?

What happened with the ridiculously overcrowded prison system (with one of the highest recidivism rates in the country)?

All the smaller beach cities along the coast and outskirts of LA-proper?

The difference between the city and the county?

Long Beach is now the port and the main corporate transportation hub, surrounded by high seawalls with highways spilling out over the top like gleaming tenticles on an octopus.

The only prison mentioned is the Haven, Horizon's magecage. The rest were either drowned or burned, though most of them were dumped into El Inferno long before Ce, if I recall correctly.

LA county is a megaplex, like Seattle, with broad stroke sections for each of the major areas not underwater.

Aerospace was not really covered, beyond mention of the PCC/Horizon launch platform and Horizon's aerospace division. Though mentions of huge corporate pull-outs due to toxic flooding and manastorms might have something to do with that. Arcologies going up, arkoblocks going down, Shiawase trying to clean-up on clean-up...

There was a large section of LA devoted to Azzie military build-up and boarder tension, along with shell corporations the Big A uses to operate in the sprawl itself.

Horizon has a unique perspective to prisons. And as for the Haven, it is a "social reeducation facility", not just a magecage... look at the map and at the relative size of the Haven. Should give you something to consider. Although maybe this belongs in the 'horizon isn't evil enough' thread...

Think they implant Criminal Offender Personas inside residents? Then the COPs could keep an eye on each other, with ratings based on how many guards are on your network, and how close those guards are to the Warden, exponentially affected by how many "classes" you've attended... Hit a certain rating and you can get better conditions, work release, parole hearings for good behavior...

I'm not entirely sure how the full NYC write-up will be presented yet, but it's my hope that it will be via some official method because of the Missions ties (either via Holostreets or posted on the official SR4 website). But once it is written, I will not allow it to vanish like SoLA did and I've made that pretty clear to everyone involved.

I took my site link off my signature because I'm expecting to redo my site soon at a new URL. But it can still be found at www.sprawledout.com.

Actually, Los Angeles was originally a mission village. It was mostly orange groves and agriculture until relatively recently.

San Pedro/Long Beach is the largest port in North America, and one of the largest in the world. Like I said: Shipping cities. Even CFS kind of tried to pay lip service to the
fact that L.A. is more than Hollywood.


ahahahahahahaha

ahahahahahahahahaha


hahahahahahahahahahaha


It is such an enormous insult to L.A. to put Seattle in a category with it.

I just realized something. Flooding Los Angeles just made it insanely easy to cover for lazy writing.

Hey, so Tiger Eyes. Since you live in Pasadena is that why you didn't mention USC--which has a much more significant presence throughout L.A. than either the University of Westwood Village (Oops. I mean UCLA) or the ever-so massive CalTech--or is it just, well... See above.

Er, right. Forgive me for taking the USian-centric view. I was mostly referring to what made Los Angeles a large, thriving city instead of the small mission village it had been under Spanish/Mexican rule, and that was the railroads and the port, both built in the late 19th century to better connect Asia with the American East Coast, all before the Panama Canal was a twinkle in Teddy Roosevelt's eye.

All this silliness over moving pictures didn't come until the Roaring 20s and the Depression, and by then LA was already a very large port city.


More like the fact that canon apparently decided that by the 2050s LA only had two colleges remaining.

So much for Cal State LA, Cal State Long Beach (both of which are many many many times larger than Caltech, and I think are bigger than UCLA as well), Loyola Marymount, USC, a few dozen private and community colleges... heck just look here a bit... 35,000 entries!

Tiger Eyes did the best s/he could, but frankly there's so little to work with. I mean, ever since that apparently massive nationwide drug trip in every major government office in the world that caused 1) the failing UCAS to kick out California in favor of Seattle, and 2) California to turn around and kick out Los Angeles because a few terrorists were found there, and 3) Los Angeles to suddenly decide that the best way to deal with homelessness is to build walls around them, all in the space of a decade or so, it's just really, really hard to lend sincerity to anything related to California.

We still can hope that the time-leap of SR5 will be used to make LA a saner city.

Tiger Eyes, and the remaining writers, wrote what they wrote under developer direction and put the emphasis on what the developers chose to focus on. The choice of focusing on the entertainment industry, Horizon, beta-testing of P2.0 (and its various ramifications), spotlighting Central LA as opposed to the outer sprawl, developing the Fall into something other than 2 lines in the core book was the developers' not the writers.

We opted to focus on what made LA unique as a city and as a corporate enclave (the fact that it is not one but dozens of corp enclaves spread across a city united by corporate dominated media culture which manifests in every single aspect of life). We chose to reference stuff like the LA port (no longer as dominant) and the Universities (UCLA rose to preeminence with its sponsors first Amalgamated Studios and now Horizon) as both important aspects of Los Angeles, but we remained in line with what was previously developed in canon sources.

We do not engage in retroactive continuity adjustments for a number of reasons, so like it or not, the Los Angeles we were portraying was very much the one we inherited from California Free State.

Yes, when the Easttern Orthodox Mayan calendar switches to all zeroes on August 42nd, 2035...

As much as I love the impossible reality of Cyberpunk, I must agree with Eyeless Blond. LA cannot survive without the port. To sustain it's size and economy, I do not see how only the Entertainment Industry can exist. Im sure they made minor references to other economic players, but the Port is most fundamental. I do not believe I am wrong in saying that there is a reason almost all major cities are on a large body of water. People need food, water, and shelter; everything else is just icing on the cake. Sure there are probably other ports along the coast, but I doubt the LA port just vanished.

But the port is there - the book just does not focus much on it. But the book mentions clearly that the PCC really wanted control of that port, first and foremost, and now are peeved that Horizon controls it.

(multipost)

The reason the PCC rescued LA was for the ports, but then the LA Port did just vanish, it sank under a hundred meters of toxic water. So, the corps made Long Beach a megaport, the port of ports, and now they make the PCC and everyone else beg to use it. Naturally they want to keep control of the ports and keep everyone falling allovereachother to use them. That's pretty much covered in the book.

[edit] Too Slow

I think the PCC need to get its act together, stop fighting Horizon for control of LA and hire Charisma Associates to pull the Ute thorn from their side, before it becomes a fatal infection.

I take it you haven't read the book then. The port is there -just looking at the map its bigger than it used to be. It was the first thing that was rebuilt and shored up after the Fall making it subject to even more greed and territorial claimstaking than ever.

Also for the record, contrary to what was claimed above LA in Corporate Enclaves does have industrial cities, service-based cities, financial and business sector cities, resort cities and shipping cities. It is a post-industrial service-based city with media and gaming and resorts. The aerospace and miltech industries are there too (the ones that didn't go under with El Infierno- literally). So is Disney. So is the water issue. All of them are mentioned to some extent, however, what they are not is the focus of the chapter nor of LA as a corporate enclave.

...GAAAHHHHHHHHH! No, No, No!!!

Forgive my laziness. I went over the main aspects of the LA chapter and liked it as I have already said. It seems that some feel the port/water issues/aerospace industry did not receive their rightful share of material. I am supporting this in that while I like Pitoo, and Sims, I understand that they cannot provide for the people the same way that industry/freight can. I guess I do feel that everything could have been fleshed out quite a bit more, but I guess I will have to wait for paper to disappear before that becomes economical for the publisher.

You failed. Epically.

Probably right around the time you assumed that Hollywood is the be-all end-all of Los Angeles.

As a paying customer you're definitely entitled to your own opinion. Fortunately, several people in this very thread disagree with you (and more importantly to Catalyst the direct feedback from customers, mail ins, and retailers we've recieved for this book is overwhelmingly positive).

Don't forget Disneyland. Hollywood, Disneyland, UCLA vs... Caltech? and dumpster diving in a lake that used to be a few hundred feet above sea level.

Thing is, most of the problems with LA in this book trace their roots back to the Calfree sourcebook. By this point LA has been so screwed up that the best solution is to try to ignore as much of the history as possible, dump all the inconvenient parts of the city into a toxic lake, and try to muddle along and pull something useful out of the mess.

(Edit) Sorry if that sounds negative, because it's not supposed to be. But Calfree really did need to be dunked into the ocean after that sourcebook; it was pretty much the only way to save it.