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Pages: 1, 2, 3
Zhan Shi
Just finished reading it. Impressions: the cover art is certainly better than Augmenation, the interior art less so. As for the actual text, I'd say it's top notch. Lot's of juicy tidbits and adventure potential. The section that really caught my eye? Horizon employs a Tir expat (presumably an elf, though not explicitly stated) who is writing a novel called "The Last Spire". Hmmmm....

Also intrigued by the Dawkins Group, and their mission of hunting and destroying dangerous beliefs. Bottom line: I liked it. Kudos to all involved.
Stahlseele
i personally liked the part about neo-tokyo and europort . . and i think the interior art is good too . . Trolls, Orcs, Dwarves, Humans and elves finally look at least a little bit decent . .
Cardul
Well, personally, I wish they had perhaps included some more juicy crunchy things wink.gif

Like Availability adjustments or specific Positive or Negative Qualities for LA and Neo-Tokyo.

Beyond that, though...very good book. My GM in fact is looking forward to running us through a game in Neotokyo. So far, we have an Elf Re-pat Physical Adept and a Human Hacker/low end technomancer(took it because he wanted something that played up on the newness of TMs and that there are those still learning their stuff). Not sure if the other player is going to do a Shinto magician(and thus, default Face), though my GM and I are hoping he does. Me..I am not sure what I am going to run yet, though the GM is inclined to have me run the vet who "shows them the ropes" early on.
Synner
Nice to see some positive reviews. This book certainly had its ups and downs, but I have to say I like the way it turned out in the end and I was hoping fans would like it too.

As usual I would have liked to have a lot more space for places like Europort and Tecnoctitlán but it just isn't feasible, but I think we still managed to showcase some of the uniqueness and peculiarities that make these other company towns cool settings.

QUOTE
The section that really caught my eye? Horizon employs a Tir expat (presumably an elf, though not explicitly stated) who is writing a novel called "The Last Spire". Hmmmm....

Cool, someone caught it. There are a couple of other references to the guy in other parts of the text that offer more "trivia" for you to mull over.

QUOTE
Like Availability adjustments or specific Positive or Negative Qualities for LA and Neo-Tokyo.

We are trying to keep crunch and fluff separate as much as possible for a number of reasons. We have no plans to include advanced rules or options in what are essentially setting books to avoid the rules dispersal that was a common complaint in SR3 books. That this makes the new setting books more interesting and accessible to people who remain attached to the SR3 is not lost on us either...
Stahlseele
something that i found unnerving was the bit of shadowtalk in the part about neo-tokyo where there is mentioning of "cybertech, biotech, nanotech, gentech and manatech" . .
Synner
Consider it a teaser of sorts, after all Arsenal will include about 4 pages worth of "manatech" devices, some of which make perfect sense as next-gen (post-2071) cyberlimb plug-ins, biotech/symbionts/genetech, and even nanotech.
Caine Hazen
You tease!!!

I do like Corp Enclaves though, I believe this format is really good. Although I know some people would like to see more info on more places, this allows a few areas to be fleshed out, while leaving enough area for GMs to run crazy with the tidbits that you guys drop in there.

Good job, keep it up!
Stahlseele
*grabs and shakes Synner*
Tell me there will be no magical-ware damn you! ò,Ó
Synner
Boy do you guys have the wrong idea about manatech - well, half-wrong.
Ezeckial
So......

Pretty please can we have arsenal soon?

Before everyone has a fit? spin.gif

The fact that I want to see it has nothing to do with it either.........
Synner
Or we can get back to reviews of Corp Enclaves...
Stahlseele
of course we could, but where would be the fun in that? o.O
ok, back to topic, nice artwork and all that . . except for the cover, i think it's fugly O.o
knasser
QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE
The section that really caught my eye? Horizon employs a Tir expat (presumably an elf, though not explicitly stated) who is writing a novel called "The Last Spire". Hmmmm....

Cool, someone caught it. There are a couple of other references to the guy in other parts of the text that offer more "trivia" for you to mull over.


Well he might write it, but whether or not he actually manages to keep hold of the draft manuscripts this time is another matter.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

As to Corporate Enclaves, I sadly haven't read it all yet, but everything I've read I've liked. I like the social networking system in LA, I like that parts of LA have become an Ultimate Dungeon without damaging the general tone of Shadowrun. I particularly like the the mini-sections on Dubai and Europort. The writing is believable and very engaging and it makes me sad that Fastjack now sounds so old.

Not so keen on the style of the cover, but I'm not complaining either. I know a lot of other people have said they really like it. Just seems a little simplistic to me.

Maybe comment properly when I've finished it.

-K.
Ryu
I think this time Harly is doing the writing and quite a few other elves are attempting to steal the works, not only Ehran.

The question is: Will he/ the book qualify for the entry in the Big D´s will?
Stahlseele
wasnt the last . . nah, that was the crying/blood red spire, carry on . .
Zhan Shi
I know some have complained about the whole "P2.0" shadowrunner craze. But I think it's a logical extrapolation, given the current fad of realicrap tv.

The placenta bar was an...interesting...touch, even if it did give me nightmares. "I'd like the stillborn ork, please, with a side of human umbilical cord..." *shudder*
Dashifen
I haven't read the NeoTokyo section yet, but the L.A. section was gold. I was worried, for a moment, that you didn't intend the double entendre with "Pito" until I noticed that it was all but spelled out in the shadow commentary. I like that L.A. is starkly different from Seattle and Hong Kong from Runner Havens. Those two cities seemed very similar which, as Runner Havens, was probably the intention. But L.A. stands out as being different from them, and not only because of Pito. I like that the underworld elements in L.A. are less balanced than in the other two cities (i.e., the Mob has the most control and the other syndicates are just beginning to make inroads).

Like Seattle and Hong Kong, there's enough variation in the different sectors of the city (El Infierno vs. Hollywood vs. SFV) that you can put a variety of styles in the city with or without worrying about the Pito network, especially since low to mid-level shadowrunners are unlikely to be invited unless they need to be. I also like that LA has the Deep Lacuna to play around in if you want a mysterious game or two. Seattle has Glow City which can provide a similar feel if played correctly, but the Lacuna puts a magical spin on things while Glow City is all about modern technology and social classism gone wrong.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
The placenta bar was an...interesting...touch, even if it did give me nightmares. "I'd like the stillborn ork, please, with a side of human umbilical cord..." *shudder*

Heeheeheehee
martindv
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
The placenta bar was an...interesting...touch, even if it did give me nightmares. "I'd like the stillborn ork, please, with a side of human umbilical cord..." *shudder*

Who let the authors of the Germany sourcebook have their fingers back?
Stahlseele
i, for one, welcome our new japanese that are more fucked up than germans *g*
martindv
Just because some people do this doesn't make the concept edgy or different or any more than a scatalogical fascination.
Synner
QUOTE (martindv)
Just because some people do this doesn't make the concept edgy or different or any more than a scatalogical fascination.

It's there as a cool factoid and a reminder that what would be considered bizarre behavior and extreme life choices are more prevalent in the Sixth World.
martindv
That's fine and all, except that some people eat this stuff now (and eat their own, specifically). Just to put it in perspective, that's kind of like projecting out gross-out reality shows being popular in the 2050s in Shadowbeat when in reality Fear Factor (as the most obvious example) came and went within 15 years of that book.

But my apprehension is that I just don't see human product consumption ever being acceptable by more than a niche. Just because forced-growth clones are possible doesn't make it any more likely (or as far as I know any less resource-consuming) that cannibalism would be on the rise. Besides, humans aren't very nutritious. Just look at the HMHVV infected.

It's pretty interesting. Gross, but interesting. Then again, I've seen some pretty weird and otherwise awful (if it wasn't all virtual) stuff in Second Life, and it's never hurt my opinion overall.
Ancient History
Did you actually read the relevant section?
martindv
Yes, finally. I still don't see the point.

Skimmed through L.A. It seemed so boring. They all did, actually. I can't quite put my finger on the reason why, but oh well.
Fortune
QUOTE (martindv)
Skimmed through L.A. It seemed so boring. They all did, actually. I can't quite put my finger on the reason why, but oh well.

Could be the reason.
martindv
Skim is a loose term, butr that nothing struck me when going over each city is not my problem.
Cardul
QUOTE (martindv)
Skim is a loose term, butr that nothing struck me when going over each city is not my problem.

Well, honestly, skimming means you are not really looking for anything.

You did not find that Ryumo is involved in the Fung Shuei of Ne-Tokyo interesting? That the Emperor has audiences with the Kami?

You did not find the Deep Lacuna in LA interesting? The stuff about runners having to negotiation time delays into the broadcast rights of their runs? That Runenrs have to negotiate broadcast rights? Vault diving and the mysterious critters that can survive in the water covering what used to be El Infierno or the depths of the Deep Lacuna?

To me, the whle thing was a fascinating read. Note: I skimmed first, and kind of thought it was bleh. Once I gave it a deep read, that is when I started noticing the intriguing details(which were often hidden in btht he main text, and the BB chatter)
martindv
Well, then I was reading it with the intention of not acting like a manga boy sitting in the aisle sucking up oxygen useful people can use.

That said, no. I wanted to see if it was good for running in L.A. It's nice to see them explain away the basin sinking, but it all felt manufactured and phony. It's not so much L.A. as it is what people think L.A. is like.

It's about the word Southland not appearing anywhere in what I read (such as the first page, when Doc Hollywood is explaining how locals call it the LA Sprawl). It's about how entire cities are referred to like people in other cities refer to their neighborhoods IRL, something I've only otherwise experienced in New York. It's acknowledged in like one sentence and then forgotten that L.A. County has scores of cities. You know, El Infierno walled off cities (they're called the Mid-Cities, btw) and not just part of the city of L.A. No one has ever acknowledged that, and not in what I read.

The part about it being sunk was just the same few sentences repeated over and over ad nauseum: it's underwater, it's dangerous, people can treasure dive, and it's dangerous.

What I do give the authors credit for is basically describing Mike Davis' worst-case apocalyptic scenario in Ecology of Fear sans the tornadoes.

What I didn't really see much of was use for running. Like I said, it was mostly just boring. So were the other chapters I read. Manhattan got screwed. I can't believe how dead that city was written to be, when there is more potential for conflict and just LIFE on the island than I could imagine. I don't blame the author, because it wasn't like there was a lot of space for Manhattan because somehow Los Angeles is a more important corporate city than it? It isn't. It makes no sense to treat it like it is.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (martindv)
Manhattan got screwed. I can't believe how dead that city was written to be, when there is more potential for conflict and just LIFE on the island than I could imagine. I don't blame the author, because it wasn't like there was a lot of space for Manhattan because somehow Los Angeles is a more important corporate city than it? It isn't. It makes no sense to treat it like it is.

Yeah, 1500 words is just not enough to do much with. It's 500 less than what the secondary settings in Runner Havens got, which I complained about. You're absolutely correct, there's a ton of potential in Manhattan, but I couldn't write about in the 1500 word limit. I struggled to even fit a passable description in that, considering the notes I have on 2070 Manhattan are currently at ten times that word count.

During the proposal process for CE, I was often told that NYC was pretty much in as one of the two main settings. That changed somewhere for some reason, which I'll admit pissed me off a little. That said, I really do think Jennifer did a great job with Los Angeles, which is a setting I wouldn't have touched with a ten foot pole. I was hugely skeptical until I actually read it.

After I am done with my current SR writing (which should be very soon), a full length New York City write-up is my only project. Catalyst has expressed interest in that going up on Holostreets, but I've already made clear to them that if Holostreets doesn't materialize in time for the write-up, I will put it on my own website as fan material rather than have it languish like Shadows of Latin America did (and continues to).

Hopefully you'll find that interesting. I know I'm psyched about writing it, being a born New Yorker myself.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (DE)
I've already made clear to them that if Holostreets doesn't materialize in time for the write-up, I will put it on my own website as fan material rather than have it languish like Shadows of Latin America did (and continues to).


*Claps*
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Jan 28 2008, 05:53 PM)
Hopefully you'll find that interesting. I know I'm psyched about writing it, being a born New Yorker myself.

Ooh, where in NYC?

(My parents are both from Brooklyn, and we visit often enough that I know the city well enough, although nowhere near native levels)

And I'm also interested in seeing how NYC has fared in the Sixth World.
Demonseed Elite
I'm originally from Queens. I don't live there anymore, but I still have family and friends in NYC and visit often. I'm looking forward to my next trip down there in May.
nathanross
I feel that the best part of Corporate Enclaves is the possibility for a new kind of shadowrunning. While we have developed the mindset of always staying hidden, never showing your true face, the LA section completely changes that. While Im not sure how I'd like to be KNOWN by every damn person on the net, It is very interesting to think about how you would manage your daily life and how you would let things cool down in between runs.

It cant help but think that getting away from the Corporate strike team is quite a bit more difficult when they can watch a live time video of you escaping. rotfl.gif

I do wish they would have focused on the East Coast megaplex more, as SR could really use that setting. Other than that, a good book all around I think, though I really wish there was more there. For $18, I really wanted some more.
Demonseed Elite
And that is part of the goal of these different sprawl books. If they all encouraged the same type of shadowrunning, then there wouldn't be much need for any of them beyond Runner Havens.
TheRedRightHand
I also really liked this book, and I am already planning a "Running Man" senario for my players when they get to LA (lots of people watching live as they fight for their lives against other runners and corp. hit teams coming after them), but that said, as good as it is, I really don't think LA qualifies as a "Corp Enclave". There is way too much chaos and unrest going on in the city, with no real solid corp control, to make it feel like a corp city. To me, it almost reads like it should be a "Feral City" rather then a Corp Enclave.
Ranneko
I really liked the Neo-Tokyo section for that reason too actually.

A SR setting where guns are harder to obtain, and you rely on a fixer more than random Johnsons. And the Negawashi aspect of legwork which can either complicate or simplify runs depending on the situation.

It is not radically different, but I like some of the changes, and it almost makes me tempted to start a game based there.

EDIT: Also
QUOTE
Shadowland’s compilations are still a valuable source of information,
even if somewhat outdated: Aztlan gives you the nuts and
bolts of the country, while the elusive Shadows of Latin America
compilation paints a broader picture of the region (and no, it ain’t
a nice picture).
> FastJack


Elusive indeed.

*mutters unpleasant things about Holostreets.*
martindv
QUOTE (TheRedRightHand)
I really don't think LA qualifies as a "Corp Enclave". There is way too much chaos and unrest going on in the city, with no real solid corp control, to make it feel like a corp city. To me, it almost reads like it should be a "Feral City" rather then a Corp Enclave.

You're not alone.
Kalvan
Los Angeles read like someone was making the best of a bad situation. To anyone with any say over the metaplot, While I don't expect any sort of timetable for restoring the area to its previous elevation (Though I'm not averse to it even if I never hear the details, so long as you guys actually adhere to it), I do insist that the metaplot payoff be worth it.

That said, Shadowrunning as bread and circuses is an amusing idea. Since all the runners in my current game have some means of (so far) foolproof physical disguise, It can be a means of picking up extra cred as needed.

I liked Neo-Tokyo much better, yet even there, It felt like way too much was missing. Chiba and Yokohama are cities in their own right large enough to have several Wards each with their own description. And even within Neo-Tokyo, there's still the matter that many Places of Intrest are mentioned as being in Wards placed on the map but never actually discussed, or in Cho-level neighborhoods never even mentioned in the maps or outline. What's going on in Koto, Edogawa, Katsushika, Adachi, Arakawa, Kita,Meguro, Shinagawa, Oto, or Nakano?

The Traditionalist/New Way split is played up, but the New Way itself as mentioned in the section bears no resemblance to (and in certain respects is exactly at odds with) the one in published fiction or the Third Edition Underworld Sourcebook. (And aside from mutually exclusive membership (well duh!), exactly what is the real difference between the Kodachi-gumi and the Buryokudan, or the Yomi-Ryu (Which sounds more like a school of maho than a street gang/zoku/minor gumi) and the Inagawa-kai?
Synner
QUOTE (martindv @ Jan 31 2008, 05:33 AM)
QUOTE (TheRedRightHand @ Jan 30 2008, 06:26 PM)
I really don't think LA qualifies as a "Corp Enclave". There is way too much chaos and unrest going on in the city, with no real solid corp control, to make it feel like a corp city. To me, it almost reads like it should be a "Feral City" rather then a Corp Enclave.

You're not alone.

Though large parts of the sprawl are caught up in the midst of turmoil and unrest, three things qualify Los Angeles as a Corporate Enclave:
a) the omnipresence, prevasiveness and sheer importance of corporate media and corporate culture in all aspects of daily life.
b) because of the overall situation, LA is in fact dotted with multiple "corporate enclaves" - massive ones like Fun City or Hollywood, and smaller ones in Downtown and South Central where the reclamation is in the hands of corps.
c) despite the chaos, authority does exist (and is for the most part under the control of the two major corporations) and maintains some semblance of law and order (not to mention the infrastructure of a megasprawl itself) - feral cities have neither (ie. GeMiTo, Bug City, anarch Berlin, etc).
TheRedRightHand
Maybe Synner could answer this question (or anyone else who might know):

If I remember correctly (in from 1st to 3rd edition), hadn't the movie and entertainment industry been moved out of LA and to Toronto? I seem to recall that after California left the UCAS the whole entertainment industry moved to Toronto, making it the "capitol of show business" Did this change somewhere along the way? Or has it just be retcond for the new edition?
martindv
Not exactly.

When simsense was created in Chicago, it made Chicago a major global media city. After Bug City began, Truman Tech and many other corps moved to Los Angeles in the CFS book. But some moved to Toronto, because it wasn't DC or New York or Boston, each of which have things going against them (and because Toronto can stand in for anywhere). So in Shadows of North America, Toronto was the media capital of the UCAS, but L.A. is still king of the hill.
Fortune
We need one of those little blurb things (at least) on Toronto in one of the future Cities of .. books. In my opinion, it is way past due.
martindv
Boring Cities
Ancient History
Lessee...Toronto and Melbourne as the main cities, minor cities include Des Moines, possibly a born-again takeover in Tijuana...
Fortune
Don't know much about Toronto, eh?
Ancient History
Let's say I don't remember much of the time I spent there.wink.gif
martindv
I'd kill for my hometown to not have been covered. So count yourself lucky.
Fortune
Toronto is not my hometown. I am living on the other side of the World, in Oz.
Whipstitch
I've always been curious what would happen with the Twin Cities metro area and the Great Lake states in general. There's a fairly large "buffer" between the Algonkian-Manitou Council and Minnesota thanks to what's left of Manitoba and Ontario, but between people being displaced from Bug City and all the mayhem that went on with the Awakening, I could imagine the place being either reduced in stature or a fairly decent corp enclave due to the likely megacorp acquisitions of 3M, the United Health Group, Pepsi-Americas, Target, Best Buy and Medtronic which are based all around that immediate area.

Nothing still quite interests me as much as what could have happend with Bleeding Kansas- The Sequel! Okay, okay, so I have nothing to really base that on. But the UCAS-CAS split had to make for some interesting politics particularly around Kansas and Missouri.
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