Why does this argument come up time and again? Why do you waste your time re-doing the same arguement?
Please someone give me back my wasted half hour and tell me why?
bibliophile20 your going to do what your going to do. In fact am sure you by now you have at least half a plan formed. I will direct you to the Underworld source book and apparently Corp enclaves for more on Yakuza culture and vectors to get your PC's. Have fun.
Full Version: Seriously Pissed Off Yaks
| QUOTE (knasser @ Jan 27 2008, 03:41 AM) | ||
Well I pretty much agree with Toturi's take on it as a whole. Four to five highly trained infiltrator-killer types could wipe out a local crime syndicate. |
I'll remember that the next time I watch Heat.
That was just a pissed-off money launderer with some muscle, and he totally screwed them royally. He acted alone because asking the cartels for help was out of line (and would have shortened the movie by two hours). If he had, then Heat would have turned into Collateral on steroids, where you have a dozen Vincents with the best assassins billions in drug money can buy murdering Neal and his crew in their sleep.
What the Yakuza has is time, money, influence, money, intelligence, and money. This is a crime organization that has ties to the third-largest megacorporation in the world. This is an organization that finally decided to make an example of Seattle, and annihilated the traitors without losing much if any of a foothold in the city.
That's the beauty of a mid-sized organization like the Seattle Yakuza. They have the manpower, money and reach to gather intelligence. They can hire their own runners, they have their own company men runners, and they can hire everyone from Lone Star cops (officially through the corp side, and through crooked cops) to Aegis Cognito spies to Tsunami mercenaries. They can do more damage more quickly to a runner group than I think you give them credit, not least of all because any sign of weakness makes them a target for every other syndicate.
You forget that all warfare is based on deception. Like Critias said, most people just look at the unmodded or barely-modded soldiers. That is a great perception to have, because any time some fool thinks "oh, that's all?" and attacks the Yakuza, they fail to anticipate the cyber-ninjas waiting to kill them and everyone they know as an example.
| QUOTE (martindv) |
| They can do more damage more quickly to a runner group than I think you give them credit, not least of all because any sign of weakness makes them a target for every other syndicate. |
I think you're not giving me my due credit if you really read what I wrote. I said that the Yakuza could wipe the PCs off the face of the planet quite easily. I also said that because of a crime syndicates dependency on other people's fear of them, that they would have to. But four to five highly trained infiltrator-killer types could devastate an organized crime syndicate too. Both sides can dish out more than the other can take and the difference between outcomes can be as small as whether it takes the Yaks a day to find where their enemies are holed up or if it takes them two days, whether the avengers knows what sort of car the yak boss drives or if they don't know. Basically you have a russian roulette sort of situation, in which we don't know which player is going to go down first.
If you were to tell me that these four well-equipped killers couldn't murder a bunch of people who lived on an army base, then I might believe you. If you're going to tell me that in an urban environment against targets who overlap with normal society, that they couldn't pull this off, I'm going to doubt you.
The realistic counterbalance to people murdering the organised crime bosses is not that the bosses live in houses that can't be broken into and never venture out, but that the people who could do it have people they care about not facing reprisals and wont gamble their lives for hatred. You take both of those out of the equation when you talk about PCs.
| QUOTE (knasser @ Jan 28 2008, 07:00 AM) |
| The realistic counterbalance to people murdering the organised crime bosses is not that the bosses live in houses that can't be broken into and never venture out, but that the people who could do it have people they care about not facing reprisals and wont gamble their lives for hatred. You take both of those out of the equation when you talk about PCs. |
PCs in general, no
PCs who have already lost all the contacts who could not hide from the Yaks and who are psychotic about protecting the in group NPC. Yup
Bibliphile you have already taken away every piece of Leverage you could have used to Calm them down.
You want the PC rampage to stop? watcjh the Denzel Washington version of Man on Fire to get a good idea on how to stop them.
In short one of the Supposedly Dead COntacts, and Her 6 year old Daughter, are still alive and can be Bartered back to the party...
EDIT: Okay should add a thought thjat Just occured to me
Bibliophile you ccreated this mess. You did it when you removed ALL the contacts that could not hide and attacked ALL their dosses at once. You left the PCs nothing left to lose.
Watch the early part of Man on Fire and you will undertsand what I mean. In the end if you take everything away from someone, you make them orders of magnitude more dangerous.
KOA: I quite realize that, and my defense is the very weak "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time..."
(however, also in my defense I shall point out that I'm a newbie GM and this is my first ever campaign)
(however, also in my defense I shall point out that I'm a newbie GM and this is my first ever campaign)
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| How are all the Yakuza families going to leave? |
well... step one, get in the car. step two, drive for an hour or two. step three, chill at your new location for the day or so it takes for this to blow over. come on, these guys make a living by pissing off other people who have lots of guns, almost all of them are going to have put at least a little bit of thought into what to do if someone should try to hit them where it hurts.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The yaks have to cut off logistical support for the runners. But the problem is that they cannot ensure total logistical isolation, I doubt even Ghostwalker can manage it in Denver. If they could, they would have just squashed the runners in the first place. The runners do not need to hide, all they need to do is stay hidden long enough to reload and rearm from pillaging their last strike, maybe rest up and then hit another target. By hitting the yak leaders/businesses, the yaks will shift manpower to guard these. Constantly shifting targets and targeting priorities the runners keep the yakuza on the defensive. By the time the yaks counterattack by cracking down on the runners' contacts and by offering bounties, it would be too late. By the time the locals get wise to the runners and start evacuating their families, the runners are going after other targets like rthe rest of the leadership. All this should be settled in 72 hours tops. Either the yakuza top leadership would have been gutted, the local yakuza infrastructure in shambles or the runners are dead, the runners may just end up dead but the point is that the runners already have nowhere to go anyway. The cyberzombie has to get here before it even can make a difference. |
your scenario depends on everyone except the runners acting like suicidal idiots. i mean everyone. the Yaks--all the Yaks--have to stay and fight to the death every time, and never run away or call the boss to give him a heads up. the gangs that go for the reward money that they Yaks are offering have to all attack in Final Fight-esque groups, again fighting to the death every time. none of the bad guys are allowed to act with any degree of intelligence or planning, they all have to constantly surprised by the crazy, sneaky tricks that the runners are pulling--despite the fact that these crazy, sneaky tricks are exactly how the Yaks operate on a daily basis, not to mention it's how all the Yaks' enemies operate on a daily basis.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| Which brings it down to the question of can a small team of trained and well-equipped assassins kill some people with moderately good security? And the answer is 'yes.' |
the Yakuza in SR operate against powerful enemies. therefore, to survive, they must themselves be fairly powerful. the abilty to call in a cyberzombie says to me that this group of Yaks' security might be a bit more than moderately good. moreover, it's not like these Yaks don't know what's coming. this whole thing, according to the OP, has played out very loudly. the Yaks know the runners, know the runners are coming after them, and know what the runners are capable of. the runners really shouldn't stand a chance.
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) |
| KOA: I quite realize that, and my defense is the very weak "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time..." (however, also in my defense I shall point out that I'm a newbie GM and this is my first ever campaign) |
I made similar goofs back in the day
My adivce, Ruin with it, give them a chance to take the Yak syndicate section down with them. They might even survive
The best part, They will be talking about your campaign for YEARS
an addendum to my previous post: guerrilla warfare depends on a populace that is at least neutral with regards to the guerrillas, if not actively assisting them. the Yaks can turn the populace actively against the runners, meaning the runners will die because there is nowhere they can go to ground--everyone they pass on the street will call the Yaks and say "i just saw those guys you're offering 500Y for, they're at the corner of Sesame Street and Conjunction Junction."
guerrilla warfare depends on the guerrillas being able to obtain reliable information in large quantities. normal operations largely ensure that the runners will start out with little information on Yakuza operations. because the population is against the runners, the runners have no recourse but to go directly to the Yakuza for information on Yakuza operations. this means that if the runners learn anything, the Yaks will know that the runners know it. it's simple: if Kubayashi the Yak's job within the organization is to run the Soze Bunraku Parlor, then when the runners cut off Kubayashi's dick and ask him what he knows about Yakuza operations, Kubayashi is going to say one of three things:
1) "Go to hell!"
2) "The Soze Bunraku Parlor is down the street!"
3) "The Kaiser Bunraku Parlor is up the street!" Kaiser, in this case, being Kubayashi's main rival within the organization.
knowing who the runners hit and most likely questioned, the Yaks can very easily narrow down the runners' next target to a few options. from there, the Yaks can work on setting up a trap of some sort, or intercepting the runners before they hit their next target, or whatever.
guerrilla warfare depends on time. the Yaks are going to be scrambling to defend themselves; if they runners are just picking Yak targets at random, they'll have no way of knowing if a given target has been left completely undefended, or if it's crawling with Yaks. finding targets, casing them, determining the best approach once a target has been picked, gathering materiel necessary for the approach the runners decide on--all of this takes time, and every second that passes is another second that some street urchin could spot them and call down the wrath of god.
put simply, if the Yaks are played with a modicum of intelligence, they'll wipe the floor with the runners. now, if someone wants to do it differently, that's fine. if the GM decides he'd rather play this like an action movie, great. i love action movies. nothing wrong with a game where the runners mow down acres and acres of faceless mooks. but realistically, five guys versus an OC syndicate--especially a well-financed syndicate that knows what's coming--is just going to be a slaughter.
guerrilla warfare depends on the guerrillas being able to obtain reliable information in large quantities. normal operations largely ensure that the runners will start out with little information on Yakuza operations. because the population is against the runners, the runners have no recourse but to go directly to the Yakuza for information on Yakuza operations. this means that if the runners learn anything, the Yaks will know that the runners know it. it's simple: if Kubayashi the Yak's job within the organization is to run the Soze Bunraku Parlor, then when the runners cut off Kubayashi's dick and ask him what he knows about Yakuza operations, Kubayashi is going to say one of three things:
1) "Go to hell!"
2) "The Soze Bunraku Parlor is down the street!"
3) "The Kaiser Bunraku Parlor is up the street!" Kaiser, in this case, being Kubayashi's main rival within the organization.
knowing who the runners hit and most likely questioned, the Yaks can very easily narrow down the runners' next target to a few options. from there, the Yaks can work on setting up a trap of some sort, or intercepting the runners before they hit their next target, or whatever.
guerrilla warfare depends on time. the Yaks are going to be scrambling to defend themselves; if they runners are just picking Yak targets at random, they'll have no way of knowing if a given target has been left completely undefended, or if it's crawling with Yaks. finding targets, casing them, determining the best approach once a target has been picked, gathering materiel necessary for the approach the runners decide on--all of this takes time, and every second that passes is another second that some street urchin could spot them and call down the wrath of god.
put simply, if the Yaks are played with a modicum of intelligence, they'll wipe the floor with the runners. now, if someone wants to do it differently, that's fine. if the GM decides he'd rather play this like an action movie, great. i love action movies. nothing wrong with a game where the runners mow down acres and acres of faceless mooks. but realistically, five guys versus an OC syndicate--especially a well-financed syndicate that knows what's coming--is just going to be a slaughter.
The other minor detail is that the Yaks are part of a cohesive, world spanning criminal empire, with a corporation that is more powerful than many nations supporting it. With a phone call you can get support from them. If they have good connections back to the homeland you can get 20 Yak magicians to show up and camp out in a secure MCT corporate hotel and wait for the PCs to show up so they can drop a horde of kami's on them 15 seconds later. Or get several hundred heavily tattooed "tourists" to show up, whose first stop on the tour is the MCT arsenal. This assumes that they don't get direct MCT magical aid or have MCT combat systems provided.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2008, 12:05 PM) |
| an addendum to my previous post: guerrilla warfare depends on a populace that is at least neutral with regards to the guerrillas, if not actively assisting them. the Yaks can turn the populace actively against the runners, meaning the runners will die because there is nowhere they can go to ground--everyone they pass on the street will call the Yaks and say "i just saw those guys you're offering 500Y for, they're at the corner of Sesame Street and Conjunction Junction." |
Neutral or friendly territory Exists, Vory land, Meta gang land (remember people, the yaks aren't much more metafriendly than Humanis)
| QUOTE |
| guerrilla warfare depends on the guerrillas being able to obtain reliable information in large quantities. normal operations largely ensure that the runners will start out with little information on Yakuza operations. because the population is against the runners, the runners have no recourse but to go directly to the Yakuza for information on Yakuza operations. |
Or go indirectly. High grade hacker in party, check out the data trsails that tell you where the Yaks are. Go to shadowland and examin the hidden ads that denote Yak Businesses. Mage with Mind probe and Alter Memory, combined with a nanopaste disguise and a false SIN can walk past the target yak, rape his brain and make him forget it ever happened.
| QUOTE |
| this means that if the runners learn anything, the Yaks will know that the runners know it. it's simple: if Kubayashi the Yak's job within the organization is to run the Soze Bunraku Parlor, then when the runners cut off Kubayashi's dick and ask him what he knows about Yakuza operations, Kubayashi is going to say one of three things: 1) "Go to hell!" 2) "The Soze Bunraku Parlor is down the street!" 3) "The Kaiser Bunraku Parlor is up the street!" Kaiser, in this case, being Kubayashi's main rival within the organization. knowing who the runners hit and most likely questioned, the Yaks can very easily narrow down the runners' next target to a few options. from there, the Yaks can work on setting up a trap of some sort, or intercepting the runners before they hit their next target, or whatever. |
See above, plenty of difficult to trace methods of interrogation exist. If they are used the situation is different.
| QUOTE |
| guerrilla warfare depends on time. the Yaks are going to be scrambling to defend themselves; if they runners are just picking Yak targets at random, they'll have no way of knowing if a given target has been left completely undefended, or if it's crawling with Yaks. finding targets, casing them, determining the best approach once a target has been picked, gathering materiel necessary for the approach the runners decide on--all of this takes time, and every second that passes is another second that some street urchin could spot them and call down the wrath of god. |
Urban guerilla warfare relies on time, but in the opposite direction. You need to be fast, before the enemy can catch up to you. Keep them off balance, dont let them have the tiome to work out who you wil hit next. Once again hackers and mages are worth their weight in gold. They can subtly case a joint within a minute of the strike.
| QUOTE |
| put simply, if the Yaks are played with a modicum of intelligence, they'll wipe the floor with the runners. now, if someone wants to do it differently, that's fine. if the GM decides he'd rather play this like an action movie, great. i love action movies. nothing wrong with a game where the runners mow down acres and acres of faceless mooks. but realistically, five guys versus an OC syndicate--especially a well-financed syndicate that knows what's coming--is just going to be a slaughter. |
I repeat, Melbourne gangland killings
This stuff is not only realistic it is REAL
Both in the cinematic style, and in the realistic style, a small determined force with nothing to lose can cripple a much larger force.
In addition thye don;t need to destroy the Yaks, just do enough damage that the other sharks will smell the blood and finish the job.
Mafia, Vory, Triads, Tongs, and Seoulpa Rings all fighitng over the carcass, with gangs and individuals scavenging scraps.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| The other minor detail is that the Yaks are part of a cohesive, world spanning criminal empire, with a corporation that is more powerful than many nations supporting it. With a phone call you can get support from them. If they have good connections back to the homeland you can get 20 Yak magicians to show up and camp out in a secure MCT corporate hotel and wait for the PCs to show up so they can drop a horde of kami's on them 15 seconds later. Or get several hundred heavily tattooed "tourists" to show up, whose first stop on the tour is the MCT arsenal. This assumes that they don't get direct MCT magical aid or have MCT combat systems provided. |
World spanning? yes
Powerful? yes
Cohesive? Kinda
United in all things? Nope
Take it from someone who knows, Organized crime, isn't.
Organised crime empires have more infighting than America during the civil war. Families fight Each other. Backstabbing and betrayals are commonplace. To put it bluntly
Yes they can get support from Mitsuhama. Yes they can put out many many troopers.
Yes they can use numbers to overcome the individual superiority of the runners.
Yes they have cyberninjas and ninjadepts
Yes they can wipe out the PCs friends.
but there are some other things here
No they cannot expect other Syndicates to help them
No they cannot instafind the PCs
No they cannot expect the support of every part of the Yakuza
No they cannot spend an unlimited supply of money on this revenge.
No they cannot expect MCT to risk their Corp Court seat to help out a single Oyabun
To put it bluntly, the best win for the Yaks as a whole is to either wipe out the runners in a day, or to subvert them.
To subvert them all the Yakuza needs is an Oyabun who wants to kill the first Oyabun. This second Oyabun offers to help the PCs out, help themdestroy the first Oyabun's stuff and make it oput alive. They can even keep the Technomancer. All they have to agree to do is turn over captured holdings to the Second Oyabun and make a matrix based statement to the effect of (video type) only refers to the Yakuza of the First Oyabun's family. The Yakuza get their honor back, the PCs get to live, and get the rep for fighting against a Yak family and winning, and the Second Oyabun gets a new set of holdings. In addition the Yakuza gets rid on an incompetent Oyabun.
And his name and picture were known to everyone before he started? He had contacts to provide support and cover, and wasn't suspected of being the guy who did this.
These guys are well know as hostile and have no contacts or people who will provide cover. While to other organized crime groups might well like the Yaks getting taken down a peg, the Yaks are hugely powerful and have a long memory. And a Yak magician in Japan can send a honking fire spirit to a Mafia business or home every day for a year, even if all the Yakuza in Seattle are dead. So there are some major potential issues, even ignoring that it's a bad long-term plan to show that THEY are vulnerable to the same thing.
These guys are well know as hostile and have no contacts or people who will provide cover. While to other organized crime groups might well like the Yaks getting taken down a peg, the Yaks are hugely powerful and have a long memory. And a Yak magician in Japan can send a honking fire spirit to a Mafia business or home every day for a year, even if all the Yakuza in Seattle are dead. So there are some major potential issues, even ignoring that it's a bad long-term plan to show that THEY are vulnerable to the same thing.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| And a Yak magician in Japan can send a honking fire spirit to a Mafia business or home every day for a year, even if all the Yakuza in Seattle are dead. |
And one of the Merlyns in service to the Seattle Mafia can do the same in reverse. The Yaks don't have anything like a monopoly on magic.
Then you have 100,000 Yakuza supported by a AAA against 60 mafia gajin and 40 gang members. That's a clever move.... They could stage a drive by on Knight Errant's HQ too.
I don't get where you figure the Yaks are a more cohesive international organization than the Mafia. Both are quite segmented in nature, dealing mostly within their own geographical area of influence.
These kind of international organized crime jihads just aren't going to happen. And even of they did, MCT is sure as hell going to stay as far away from it as possible. It's just bad for business all the way around.
These kind of international organized crime jihads just aren't going to happen. And even of they did, MCT is sure as hell going to stay as far away from it as possible. It's just bad for business all the way around.
I've got to agree with mfb, Critias and others. The Yakuza's advantages are just so overwhelming that the characters are in for a world of hurt.
Sure, the characters can inflict damage. Yes, they can hide for a time. But the Yakuza has money, so much money that they can buy anyone. So much money that the characters won't be able to trust anyone they meet.
Sure, the other syndicates could help the characters. But do they really want to risk it? Especially when all the Oyabun has to do is call and say "Mr. Mafia Don? Have you seen these runners? If you have, I would appreciate being informed. And by the way, would you be interested in getting a piece of the smuggling ops we control at the docks?"
Yes, the ork gangers in the Ork Underground hate the Yaks. Yes, Mafia foot soldiers might be overjoyed to see the Yaks taken down a peg. But when they hear of the 100, 000 nuyen bounty on the PCs' heads, some of them will be tempted to cash in. And for the Yaks, even just one Oyabun and one gumi, that's not an excessive amount of cash.
That being said, I'm not advocating insta-kill. And even with the odds stacked against them, truly clever players might be able to come out on top. In the end, I would push the players towards cutting a deal, either with another Oyabun (like Kremlin KOA suggested and happened in the old published module Dark Angel) or with MCT directly. Or they could join up with someone who hates the Yakuza as much as they do (i.e. Seoulpa Rings, Filipino pirates etc...) and spend the rest of the campaign at war.
Sure, the characters can inflict damage. Yes, they can hide for a time. But the Yakuza has money, so much money that they can buy anyone. So much money that the characters won't be able to trust anyone they meet.
Sure, the other syndicates could help the characters. But do they really want to risk it? Especially when all the Oyabun has to do is call and say "Mr. Mafia Don? Have you seen these runners? If you have, I would appreciate being informed. And by the way, would you be interested in getting a piece of the smuggling ops we control at the docks?"
Yes, the ork gangers in the Ork Underground hate the Yaks. Yes, Mafia foot soldiers might be overjoyed to see the Yaks taken down a peg. But when they hear of the 100, 000 nuyen bounty on the PCs' heads, some of them will be tempted to cash in. And for the Yaks, even just one Oyabun and one gumi, that's not an excessive amount of cash.
That being said, I'm not advocating insta-kill. And even with the odds stacked against them, truly clever players might be able to come out on top. In the end, I would push the players towards cutting a deal, either with another Oyabun (like Kremlin KOA suggested and happened in the old published module Dark Angel) or with MCT directly. Or they could join up with someone who hates the Yakuza as much as they do (i.e. Seoulpa Rings, Filipino pirates etc...) and spend the rest of the campaign at war.
The problem with cutting a deal with MCT or another Oyabun (or anyone else who even puts up a veneer of honoring Japanese traditions, which is an awful big chunk of the populace in Shadowrun) is what these players did.
It wasn't just an everyday business transaction that went sour, or a normal tit-for-tat gangland murder. Remember how they got the Yaks pissed off at 'em -- offering seppuku, then denying it very graphically and brutally -- and tell me why another Oyabun would be eager to take them in and protect them, etc, etc.
It wasn't just an everyday business transaction that went sour, or a normal tit-for-tat gangland murder. Remember how they got the Yaks pissed off at 'em -- offering seppuku, then denying it very graphically and brutally -- and tell me why another Oyabun would be eager to take them in and protect them, etc, etc.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 27 2008, 11:05 PM) |
| an addendum to my previous post: guerrilla warfare depends on a populace that is at least neutral with regards to the guerrillas, if not actively assisting them. the Yaks can turn the populace actively against the runners, meaning the runners will die because there is nowhere they can go to ground--everyone they pass on the street will call the Yaks and say "i just saw those guys you're offering 500Y for, they're at the corner of Sesame Street and Conjunction Junction." |
| QUOTE (Mao Tse-Tung) |
| The guerrilla must move among the people as a fish swims in the sea |
The problem with fighting the Triads or Yakuza is that their opponents are fighting an enemy with traditions in warfare going back millennia continuously, and have adapted and fought against each other with increasing intensity. The Yakuza in SR is based on a Japan and Japanese society without fear; the kind that made the warfare of Ghengis Khan look rather pleasant.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I don't get where you figure the Yaks are a more cohesive international organization than the Mafia. Both are quite segmented in nature, dealing mostly within their own geographical area of influence. |
The Gambino family (largest mafia family in the US IIRC) had about 200-250 made men with 600 associates. The largest Yakuza family (Yamaguchi-gumi) has 39,000 members. I can't possibly see how one could have more resources than the other....
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Then you have 100,000 Yakuza supported by a AAA against 60 mafia gajin and 40 gang members. That's a clever move.... They could stage a drive by on Knight Errant's HQ too. |
Ummm.... maybe if the Yak the runners tortured to death was Ryumyo's long lost secret love child....
Seriously though, neither the Yakuza nor the Mafia would want this to escalate into a mob war. All it would take is a few concessions and the Mafia would probably step back and let the Yaks do their thing (depending on who's the Mafia Capo in your game world. Someone hotheaded like a Maurice Bigio may be a little less predictable)
| QUOTE |
It wasn't just an everyday business transaction that went sour, or a normal tit-for-tat gangland murder. Remember how they got the Yaks pissed off at 'em -- offering seppuku, then denying it very graphically and brutally -- and tell me why another Oyabun would be eager to take them in and protect them, etc, etc. |
Good point... I had forgotten the details of the killing. So that would make a deal pretty much impossible. But I could imagine something like this -> Dishonorable Oyabun #2 secretly helps the runners take out Oyabun #1. Then, he double crosses the runners. Catches them and has them killed in an appropriate manner. Having 'avenged' Oyabun #1's death, he now gives a tearful eulogy at #1's funeral and then rises to become the most prominent Yak boss in the city.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I don't get where you figure the Yaks are a more cohesive international organization than the Mafia. Both are quite segmented in nature, dealing mostly within their own geographical area of influence. These kind of international organized crime jihads just aren't going to happen. And even of they did, MCT is sure as hell going to stay as far away from it as possible. It's just bad for business all the way around. |
but they're Japanese. Don't you understand? Everything Japanese is automatically better. This is why the Katana is a superior weapon, because it was invented by the Japanese. [/sarcasm]
Sadly Fortuen, this isa common belief these days.
Oh and from personal experience Kzt the Yakuza are LESS cohesive than the Italian Mafia. If they were as monolithic as you seem to think, I would be dead IRL
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| I repeat, Melbourne gangland killings This stuff is not only realistic it is REAL |
Anything can happen once.
For the Yakuza in Seattle, that event has come and gone. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Melbourne syndicate isn't exactly Murder, Inc.
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
The Gambino family (largest mafia family in the US IIRC) had about 200-250 made men with 600 associates. The largest Yakuza family (Yamaguchi-gumi) has 39,000 members. I can't possibly see how one could have more resources than the other.... |
Umm, maybe you should compare the Gumis from japan with the Mafia families from SICILY
Anoth thing to remember is that there are certain things that people just can't do if they plan on being alive in an hour and things that organized criminals can't do if they plan on operating very much longer.
The PCs could hide in plain sight under the almost certain assumption that the yakuza will not attack them in a crowded downtown shopping mall with an absurd level or force while, at the same time, attacking the yakuza in crowded public places with an absurd level of force.
The PCs could put area cranial bombs in their own heads (they should already have some just in case) and surrender in order to get close to someone important enough to blow up. .
The PCs could hide in plain sight under the almost certain assumption that the yakuza will not attack them in a crowded downtown shopping mall with an absurd level or force while, at the same time, attacking the yakuza in crowded public places with an absurd level of force.
The PCs could put area cranial bombs in their own heads (they should already have some just in case) and surrender in order to get close to someone important enough to blow up. .
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Oh and from personal experience Kzt the Yakuza are LESS cohesive than the Italian Mafia. If they were as monolithic as you seem to think, I would be dead IRL |
That's swell. But in Shadowrun, which I believe is the context of this discussion, the Yakuza is sufficiently monolithic and powerful that you and your family would indeed be dead in that world for whatever you do IRL.
| QUOTE (martindv) | ||
Anything can happen once. For the Yakuza in Seattle, that event has come and gone. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Melbourne syndicate isn't exactly Murder, Inc. |
hehehehehe
You don't know much about the Melbourne crime scene, do you.
It is so bad over there that the standard police response is 'shoot first, screw the questions'
Melbourne police are under constant fire from the community for shooting people, but it is required to deal wiuth the Melbourne criminal underworld
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The PCs could hide in plain sight under the almost certain assumption that the yakuza will not attack them in a crowded downtown shopping mall with an absurd level or force while, at the same time, attacking the yakuza in crowded public places with an absurd level of force. |
You could do that, but the Yakuza has never been portrayed as being that squeamish in SR. Except in places where the PCs would be harrassed or killed by The Man just for being there, like parts of Bellevue.
| QUOTE |
| The PCs could put area cranial bombs in their own heads (they should already have some just in case) and surrender in order to get close to someone important enough to blow up. . |
Again, this goes back to the "Everyone In The World Is An Idiot" trope.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Jan 28 2008, 01:28 AM) | ||||
hehehehehe You don't know much about the Melbourne crime scene, do you. It is so bad over there that the standard police response is 'shoot first, screw the questions' Melbourne police are under constant fire from the community for shooting people, but it is required to deal wiuth the Melbourne criminal underworld |
No. See, I play this game because I don't WANT to deal with criminal scum IRL.
That's great for them, though. More power to them.
I couldn't care less about RL as it applies to the game, because there's more than enough material in Shadowrun already to justify dropping the GM Hammer down on the PCs for being stupid. In my case, I drop it every time they offend the gods, which happens to be ME during those sessions. Other reasons are just justification after the fact.
| QUOTE (martindv) | ||
That's swell. But in Shadowrun, which I believe is the context of this discussion, the Yakuza is sufficiently monolithic and powerful that you and your family would indeed be dead in that world for whatever you do IRL. |
Canonically the Yakuza is NOT monolithic
The 'Dark Angel' adventure module proves that
An oyabun is willing to betray another Gumi for money
In this case all you need is to make a deal with an enemy, either an enemy Oyabun or an opposed syndicate
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Neutral or friendly territory Exists, Vory land, Meta gang land (remember people, the yaks aren't much more metafriendly than Humanis) |
we're not talking abut gigantic fiefdoms here. hell, in general, we're not talking about fiefdoms at all. even in territory where Yaks can't go openly without getting shot at, they've got people ready and willing to feed them information--especially if there's a reward out. hiding in Yak-unfriendly areas is only marginally easier than trying to hide in Little Tokyo.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Or go indirectly. High grade hacker in party, check out the data trsails that tell you where the Yaks are. Go to shadowland and examin the hidden ads that denote Yak Businesses. Mage with Mind probe and Alter Memory, combined with a nanopaste disguise and a false SIN can walk past the target yak, rape his brain and make him forget it ever happened. |
all of which takes time, which works against the runners.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Urban guerilla warfare relies on time, but in the opposite direction. You need to be fast, before the enemy can catch up to you. Keep them off balance, dont let them have the tiome to work out who you wil hit next. Once again hackers and mages are worth their weight in gold. They can subtly case a joint within a minute of the strike. |
you're mistaking tactics for strategy. tactically, yes, once you're prepped and ready, you want to move in fast, do your damage, and leave quickly so you can't be followed. strategically, though, you want to bide your time, because if you don't you risk biting off more than you can chew. do that once, and it's game over--even if you survive, you have to spend even more time licking your wounds. the runners have to take it slow and carefully, but they can't take it slow and carefully because there are too many eyes looking for them. catch-22, which is why they'll fail.
| QUOTE (Kremin KOA) |
| I repeat, Melbourne gangland killings This stuff is not only realistic it is REAL |
yeah, and there are people who have survived falling out of a plane without a working parachute. which is more likely: that a very small number of lucky or fated people survive jumping out of planes without chutes, or that jumping out of planes without a chute is a good idea?
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Both in the cinematic style, and in the realistic style, a small determined force with nothing to lose can cripple a much larger force. |
maybe, if the situation stacks a lot of things in the smaller force's favor and the smaller force is very good and very lucky. the fact that something can happen in the right situation doesn't mean that it will happen in every situation--or even that it's very likely. there have been a lot more Light Brigades than Max Paynes in the world.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Jan 28 2008, 01:33 AM) | ||||
Canonically the Yakuza is NOT monolithic The 'Dark Angel' adventure module proves that An oyabun is willing to betray another Gumi for money In this case all you need is to make a deal with an enemy, either an enemy Oyabun or an opposed syndicate |
So what? That was set how many years before 2069?
Things have changed significantly in the underworld, and especially within the Yakuza, since then. So, what's your point? The Yaks back home got sick of the treachery of some in Seattle, and after Crash 2.0 annihilated them. And yet the Yakuza is still the largest and most powerful syndicate. One gumi is led by a racist. The other is led by someone who is expanding out past Human Japanese men, and that is their conflict. The third is a bunch of ass-kickers. Nothing is going to split them in the PCs' favor like it may have twenty years earlier. So, what's your point?
The same thing could have been said about the Seattle Mafia for a decade. Then Roweena O'Malley put Maurice Bigio's brains through his skull. Game Over.
I guess we'll find out in the next year or so just how much things have changed (if any) in canon, wth the release of the upcoming Underworld book.
| QUOTE (martindv) | ||||||
So what? That was set how many years before 2069? Things have changed significantly in the underworld, and especially within the Yakuza, since then. So, what's your point? The Yaks back home got sick of the treachery of some in Seattle, and after Crash 2.0 annihilated them. And yet the Yakuza is still the largest and most powerful syndicate. One gumi is led by a racist. The other is led by someone who is expanding out past Human Japanese men, and that is their conflict. The third is a bunch of ass-kickers. Nothing is going to split them in the PCs' favor like it may have twenty years earlier. So, what's your point? The same thing could have been said about the Seattle Mafia for a decade. Then Roweena O'Malley put Maurice Bigio's brains through his skull. Game Over. |
Page source, now
If you are asking about the mob bit, I think it was in one of the chapter opening fluff in New Hong Kong ... err sorry ... Runner Havens. 
Runner havens had the Yaks consodilate down to 3 Gumis worldwide?
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) | ||||||||
Page source, now |
| QUOTE (Runner Havens @ pg. 82) |
| With things looking good in Seattle, Hanzo Shotozumi broke ties and established his own rengo (alliance). The two other gumi (clans) in Seattle played along until the Crash, when Isao Nishidon attempted to overthrow Shotozumi and retake Seattle for the Watada-rengo. The coup failed miserably, however, prompting Nishidon to take his own life as his gumi was dismantled. > Mihoshi Oni |
| QUOTE (Runner Havens @ pg. 82) |
| The Shigeda-gumi is the second largest gumi in Seattle, having expanded their operations and membership considerably following successful campaigns against both the Seoulpa Rings and the traitorous Nishidon-gumi. Oyabun Takeo Shigeda is a fervent follower of Shotozumi-sama’s vision to expand the rengo and challenge the aging and obsolete Watada clan in Japan. |
These actually go against what Martindv is saying. We seem to have a situation in Seattle where the local groups have broken ties with the father group in Japan.
Anyway, GM's can play it however they choose and monolithic or not, the local Yakuza are going to get hurt here.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
you're mistaking tactics for strategy. tactically, yes, once you're prepped and ready, you want to move in fast, do your damage, and leave quickly so you can't be followed. strategically, though, you want to bide your time, because if you don't you risk biting off more than you can chew. do that once, and it's game over--even if you survive, you have to spend even more time licking your wounds. the runners have to take it slow and carefully, but they can't take it slow and carefully because there are too many eyes looking for them. catch-22, which is why they'll fail. |
You are looking at a singular small target. Look at the entire city's yakuza ops as the target. Since the runners aren't bothering to chew, there is no risking biting off more than they can chew, they can keep biting until the yaks are dead. They are the rabid dog. That's why they can't fail.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||||
You are looking at a singular small target. Look at the entire city's yakuza ops as the target. Since the runners aren't bothering to chew, there is no risking biting off more than they can chew, they can keep biting until the yaks are dead. They are the rabid dog. That's why they can't fail. |
they can fail, it is just not guaranteed
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||||
These actually go against what Martindv is saying. We seem to have a situation in Seattle where the local groups have broken ties with the father group in Japan. Anyway, GM's can play it however they choose and monolithic or not, the local Yakuza are going to get hurt here. |
You know, making the Oyabun of that Gumi kill himself to erase the stain of making the Yakuza look dishonorable could be a way for the PCs to win
Especially if they can make a deal with some other group
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| they can fail, it is just not guaranteed |
When the objective is death either for yourself or for your enemy, I do not see how you can fail. Unless both your enemy and yourself are comically inept.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
When the objective is death either for yourself or for your enemy, I do not see how you can fail. Unless both your enemy and yourself are comically inept. |
I assumed that their own death was not an objective, just a consolation prize
QUOTE (toturi)
You are looking at a singular small target. Look at the entire city's yakuza ops as the target. Since the runners aren't bothering to chew, there is no risking biting off more than they can chew, they can keep biting until the yaks are dead. They are the rabid dog. That's why they can't fail.
five guys kick in the doors on what they think is a bunraku parlor. instead of naked jigglies and pushover guards, they find twenty pipe-hittin', tattoo-wearin' epicanthal fold-havin' ninjas, all armed to the teeth. what the five guys didn't know, because they were too busy playing Rambo, is that this bunraku parlor also happens to be where the Yaks' heavy hitters are staging up in response to the current unpleasantness. one combat round later, the five guys are splattered across the walls and the ten Yaks who survived are picking over their steaming corpses for phat lootz.
what's that? the runners have a mage, and a decker, they'd have cased the joint just before kicking in the doors? the yaks have mages and deckers too, in much greater numbers and not infrequently in equal or greater ability. mage goes for a looksee, mage doesn't come back. decker goes for a looksee, decker has to unjack with his hair on fire while twenty pipe-hittin', tattoo-wearin', epicanthal fold-havin' Yaks bust out the doors with guns blazing.
that's an extreme example. a more likely example is, the five guys kick in the doors, and one of them takes a load of buckshot in the face because one of the Yaks has wired-3. the four who remain clear out the Yaks with no other casualties--but whereas the Yaks, as a whole, have lost one guy with some expensive 'ware, the runners have lost one-fifth of their fighting ability. then two-fifths, then three-fifths, then the whole thing. all because they don't have time to look before they leap.
The way I see it, if you're going to have an all out war then you should have an all out war. Why break down doors whe n you can just get a bunch of fertilizer from Old MacDonald, pile it into the back of a rental truck, and level the entire building.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The way I see it, if you're going to have an all out war then you should have an all out war. Why break down doors whe n you can just get a bunch of fertilizer from Old MacDonald, pile it into the back of a rental truck, and level the entire building. |
because Old MacDonald slammed the door in your face. see, he heard about what the Yaks did to Farmer Brown. you know, Farmer Brown--the last guy you bought fertilizer from.
besides, if you blow up the building, how are you going to scavenge for supplies?
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
five guys kick in the doors on what they think is a bunraku parlor. instead of naked jigglies and pushover guards, they find twenty pipe-hittin', tattoo-wearin' epicanthal fold-havin', all armed to the teeth. what the five guys didn't know, because they were too busy playing Rambo, is that this bunraku parlor also happens to be where the Yaks' heavy hitters are staging up in response to the current unpleasantness. one combat round later, the five guys are splattered across the walls and the ten Yaks who survived are picking over their steaming corpses for phat lootz. what's that? the runners have a mage, and a decker, they'd have cased the joint just before kicking in the doors? the yaks have mages and deckers too, in much greater numbers and not infrequently in equal or greater ability. mage goes for a looksee, mage doesn't come back. decker goes for a looksee, decker has to unjack with his hair on fire while twenty pipe-hittin', tattoo-wearin', epicanthal fold-havin' Yaks bust out the doors with guns blazing. that's an extreme example. a more likely example is, the five guys kick in the doors, and one of them takes a load of buckshot in the face because one of the Yaks has wired-3. the four who remain clear out the Yaks with no other casualties--but whereas the Yaks, as a whole, have lost one guy with some expensive 'ware, the runners have lost one-fifth of their fighting ability. then two-fifths, then three-fifths, then the whole thing. all because they don't have time to look before they leap. |
Doors? kick? You are already doing it wrong.
Try when the runners fly drones loaded with massive amounts of homegrown explosives and thermite into the windows, then sets them off, killin everyone in the building.
The 25 major Yak hitters are setting up their anti PC plans and suddenly go all melty.
now mfb did you see something like that?
Maybe you forgot your own rants, the ones where PCs can easily start at the tiop of their game
These guys have a pair of technomancers, they can have sprites backing them up and easioly crack any of the Yak systems through abuse of sprite powers and the complex form rules (seriously)
remember this is 2069 which means MCTG has yet to get a technomancer onside. which means the Yaks have no technomancers, which means that any of those sprite powers that can only be undone by sprites are unstoppable.
COnsider the damage that can be done to the Oyabun's records of debts and markers if a single sprite gets in and performs the command "HASH *.*" sure, the sprite dies right afterwards, making the files irretrievably corrupted
rinse and repeat for the rest of the major computers for this Gumi and suddenly their cashflow stops as NOBODY can be sure how much nuyen is owed and by whom
Just to rub salt into the wound, make this fact public by reporting it on shadowland.
The Gumi wil fal very quickly
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Doors? kick? You are already doing it wrong. Try when the runners fly drones loaded with massive amounts of homegrown explosives and thermite into the windows, then sets them off, killin everyone in the building. The 25 major Yak hitters are setting up their anti PC plans and suddenly go all melty. now mfb did you see something like that? |
hahahahahahahaha
there you go, make it easy on the Yaks. blow all of your materiel in one shot to take out a teeny-tiny fraction of the Yaks' combat effectives. where are you going to get more drones and explosives for the next target? all the people who would be able to sell you more are either dead or cowering in the OU. oh, hey, you could go to a friend of a friend or something, right? hit the 'land, find a runner bar, ask around? go for it, i dare you. if you're lucky, the people you end up trying to talk to will just ignore you. if not, when you show up to talk to them, there will be a Yak goon squad (maybe even a cyberzombie, oooh!) waiting to take you down. and they'll know you're coming, because everybody on the street you drive past on the way there will call the Yaks, hoping for some reward money.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| These guys have a pair of technomancers, they can have sprites backing them up and easioly crack any of the Yak systems through abuse of sprite powers and the complex form rules (seriously) remember this is 2069 which means MCTG has yet to get a technomancer onside. which means the Yaks have no technomancers, which means that any of those sprite powers that can only be undone by sprites are unstoppable. |
yes! you're right. one technomancer can crash an entire OC syndicate's network. because he knows right where all those secret, hidden Yak hosts are, of course. don't ask how, he just does! hm, maybe they tortured some of the Yaks for info--oh, wait, no, they're not leaving anybody alive to question, they're blowing everyone up with cow poop.
what you propose is ridiculous. i know it's ridiculous because, in-game, it's late 2070 or early 2071 and nothing of the sort occurred. what, magically the Yaks--or any other major group--managed to not piss off one single technomancer from the time of the second crash all the way up through the events of Emergence. man, lucky for all those OCs! it would have sucked pretty bad for any of them that accidentally slighted someone who turned out to be a technomancer.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| five guys kick in the doors on what they think is a bunraku parlor. instead of naked jigglies and pushover guards, they find twenty pipe-hittin', tattoo-wearin' epicanthal fold-havin', all armed to the teeth. what the five guys didn't know, because they were too busy playing Rambo, is that this bunraku parlor also happens to be where the Yaks' heavy hitters are staging up in response to the current unpleasantness. one combat round later, the five guys are splattered across the walls and the ten Yaks who survived are picking over their steaming corpses for phat lootz. what's that? the runners have a mage, and a decker, they'd have cased the joint just before kicking in the doors? the yaks have mages and deckers too, in much greater numbers and not infrequently in equal or greater ability. mage goes for a looksee, mage doesn't come back. decker goes for a looksee, decker has to unjack with his hair on fire while twenty pipe-hittin', tattoo-wearin', epicanthal fold-havin' Yaks bust out the doors with guns blazing. that's an extreme example. a more likely example is, the five guys kick in the doors, and one of them takes a load of buckshot in the face because one of the Yaks has wired-3. the four who remain clear out the Yaks with no other casualties--but whereas the Yaks, as a whole, have lost one guy with some expensive 'ware, the runners have lost one-fifth of their fighting ability. then two-fifths, then three-fifths, then the whole thing. all because they don't have time to look before they leap. |
Why kick in the doors? The guys in there are already dead because the PCs are superior, no, Ultimate to any NPC the GM is willing to think up. Why? Because the GM wants to go home alive. So the 5 PCs are picking over the yak corpses for teh phat lootz. Thanks for the extra firepower and ammo.
What's that? The yaks have mages and deckers? No, already said, the GM wants to stay in 1 piece. So while the yaks have more mages and deckers, they all are dead.
That's the extreme example. A more like example would be: The mage stunballs into the warehouse without anyone the wiser and the remaining guy standing who happens to be the mage dies from a single shot to the head while the yaks are all in shock and outrage. The rest are mindprobed for all information and then killed. A fake distress call is made to the yaks from one of their commlinks by the decker with information supplied by the mage. The yaks come storming in intent of putting these guys down, but the sniper kills off the mages because the yaks that they mindprobed has seen them before and then the mage stunballs all the rest down. They mindstrip the rest for more info and then kill them in humiliating way. The yak bosses get wise and decide to call in favors and heavy hitters from the MCT, but the runners switch targets immediately after killing off the first wave. They hit the homes of the yaks, killing their wifes and children and ambushing them when they get home. They mindrape the yaks who come home. They now know the yaks' gameplans. They have now a multitude of information on yakuza operations and all their decker locations and the supersecret hosts. The PC and NPC technomancers break these locations wide open, the vultures from the other syndicates and police swoop in and feast. The communications of the yakuza are now cut off. All these can be done in less than 24 hours. The runners maintain initiative all the way.
There's no need to look before leaping because you are already leaping for the throat anyway.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2008, 06:08 PM) | ||
hahahahahahahaha there you go, make it easy on the Yaks. blow all of your materiel in one shot to take out a teeny-tiny fraction of the Yaks' combat effectives. where are you going to get more drones and explosives for the next target? all the people who would be able to sell you more are either dead or cowering... |
buy? sell?
No, Patrol drones + technomancers willing to rig = Patrol drones in TM hands
| QUOTE | ||
yes! you're right. one technomancer can crash an entire OC syndicate's network. because he knows right where all those secret, hidden Yak hosts are, of course. don't ask how, he just does! hm, maybe they tortured some of the Yaks for info--oh, wait, no, they're not leaving anybody alive to question, they're blowing everyone up with cow poop. |
Umm it is not difficult to work out the approximate location of the Oyabun's PAN... it wil be on the Oyabun, which wil be near his house. so use a decent signal repeaer node to repeat to the outside guards' PANs to repeat to the cameras etc etc
| QUOTE |
what you propose is ridiculous. i know it's ridiculous because, in-game, it's late 2070 or early 2071 and nothing of the sort occurred. what, magically the Yaks--or any other major group--managed to not piss off one single technomancer from the time of the second crash all the way up through the events of Emergence. man, lucky for all those OCs! it would have sucked pretty bad for any of them that accidentally slighted someone who turned out to be a technomancer. |
YOU, of all people, are defending the SR4 fluff and using it to justify saying a PC plan set before parts of the Fluff will fail?
so if you ran a game set back in '56 and '57 the PCs could in no way have had an effect on the election? could not have assassinated Brackhaven?
riiiight
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Why kick in the doors? The guys in there are already dead because the PCs are superior, no, Ultimate to any NPC the GM is willing to think up. Why? Because the GM wants to go home alive. So the 5 PCs are picking over the yak corpses for teh phat lootz. Thanks for the extra firepower and ammo. |
i'm going to take that as capitulation. you're saying the only reason the PCs could possibly survive taking on Yakuza clan is because the GM lets them. if that's how you prefer to run your games, more power to you. in my games, i generally prefer to have realistic consequences; therefore, in my game, i wouldn't pull my punches and let the PCs win.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| A more like example would be: The mage stunballs into the warehouse without anyone the wiser and the remaining guy standing who happens to be the mage dies from a single shot to the head while the yaks are all in shock and outrage. |
like i said (and like you said, actually), for your scenario to work, the Yaks have to act like suicidal idiots. your entire gameplan rests on a) the Yaks at the first warehouse all sitting around in a nice circle, waiting to get stunballed; b) the lone mage failing to put up wards, patrolling spirits, or any other form of magical security; c) the PCs knowing where the warehouse is and how many people are inside it. that last one is less the Yaks acting like idiots and more the GM acting like a chump, i guess.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| buy? sell? No, Patrol drones + technomancers willing to rig = Patrol drones in TM hands |
it's a good thing all patrol drones come equipped with explosives! otherwise, the PCs would have to worry about acquiring some from somewhere. not that it matters, because a) the next time you tried that trick, the Yaks will have signal jammers and hackers of their own hijacking your hijacked drones; and b) the Yaks got your email address from one of your contacts, and their hackers are busy busy busy tracking down your physical location. better hope hijacking drones doesn't take too long!
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Umm it is not difficult to work out the approximate location of the Oyabun's PAN... it wil be on the Oyabun, which wil be near his house. so use a decent signal repeaer node to repeat to the outside guards' PANs to repeat to the cameras etc etc |
mm-hm. and where's his house? is he there? what kind of electronic security does he have (hint hint: the answer is somewhere pretty close to the best).
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| YOU, of all people, are defending the SR4 fluff and using it to justify saying a PC plan set before parts of the Fluff will fail? so if you ran a game set back in '56 and '57 the PCs could in no way have had an effect on the election? could not have assassinated Brackhaven? |
me 'of all people'? okay...
my point was that you need to consider the rules in light of how the setting works, and vice-versa. if TMs, in SR, don't just run around and blow up hosts unopposed, then there must be a reason. the reason i propose is this: the Yaks do employ TMs, they just don't know it. prior to Emergence, most TMs apparently either didn't know they were TMs, or pretended they were just skilled hackers. i see no reason why such TMs wouldn't be in the employ of the Yaks, MCT, or anyone else. therefore, the Yaks are fully capable of dealing with sprites. when weird, sprite-y things start happening, the Yaks will simply call in their weirdo hackers to fix it. et voila.
um that idea is explicitly contradicted by the fluff, in that MCT bought every TM the Yaks had so they could bonesaw their brains
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