The GM may stat up his own mooks but then they would not be canon. And RAW only states that Professional Rating controls which how the Grunts are classified, if you want Rating 1 Grunts statted like Tir Ghost, the GM may do it in accordance to RAW. Hence my adherence to canon, once you use RAW, the field opens up so wide, it really isn't much to discuss anymore.
I have stated my view of who has the first strike. You disagree. The underlying fundamental of the situation has changed or will change once the runners escalate, hence they have the first strike capability.
And the willingness to die gives the runners as much as or more than the situational modifiers that the yaks have. Seriously once we move into the realm of situational modifiers we are talking about GM discretion again.
And to take your chiphead example, every job that a runner gets is one job that another runner won't get. Every job has a target and that target is in direct opposition to the runners.
Full Version: Seriously Pissed Off Yaks
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The GM may stat up his own mooks but then they would not be canon. And RAW only states that Professional Rating controls which how the Grunts are classified, if you want Rating 1 Grunts statted like Tir Ghost, the GM may do it in accordance to RAW. |
i don't see what bearing this has on the situation.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| And the willingness to die gives the runners as much as or more than the situational modifiers that the yaks have. Seriously once we move into the realm of situational modifiers we are talking about GM discretion again. |
no, it doesn't. willingness to die only means that you are able to utilize your full potential in pursuit of your goals. if your full potential is not enough to achieve your goals, then your willingness to die is irrelevant.
i don't see what GM discretion has to do with the argument.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| And to take your chiphead example, every job that a runner gets is one job that another runner won't get. Every job has a target and that target is in direct opposition to the runners. |
nothing i've seen in canon suggests to me that shadow work is in such short supply that runners frequently have to fight over getting jobs. as far as direct competition, yes, the runners are in direct competition against their target for the duration of the job. that's completely different from OC syndicates, which are in direct competition with the same enemies--each other--every day of every week of every year. runners only need to think in terms of doing one job at a time. they don't have to think in terms of how a given job will affect them, their friends, or their enemies. they don't have to sustain an ongoing effort against a lasting foe; they only need to formulate one quick hit at a time against one foe at a time.
1) Everything to do with the situation. Since Pro Rating does not control Attributes other than Edge, you can possibly stat the Pro 0 Grunts to be Ultimate NPCs with only Group Edge of 0 and by RAW, you would not be wrong.
2) Situational modifiers are determined by the GM. If influence/money/etc are situational modifiers, then concievably "willingness to die" is also a situational modifier.
3) The runners are always on the job. Whether there is retibution for a recent run, or a run that they did before they retired, they are always on the job and even more so then OC, they can never really retire.
2) Situational modifiers are determined by the GM. If influence/money/etc are situational modifiers, then concievably "willingness to die" is also a situational modifier.
3) The runners are always on the job. Whether there is retibution for a recent run, or a run that they did before they retired, they are always on the job and even more so then OC, they can never really retire.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| 1) Everything to do with the situation. Since Pro Rating does not control Attributes other than Edge, you can possibly stat the Pro 0 Grunts to be Ultimate NPCs with only Group Edge of 0 and by RAW, you would not be wrong. |
yes, you could do that. i don't see why you would.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| 2) Situational modifiers are determined by the GM. If influence/money/etc are situational modifiers, then concievably "willingness to die" is also a situational modifier. |
even if one grants that a willingness to die somehow imparts greater ability in the realm of strategic planning, realistically it's not going to be enough to overcome the huge advantages the Yaks have.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| 3) The runners are always on the job. Whether there is retibution for a recent run, or a run that they did before they retired, they are always on the job and even more so then OC, they can never really retire. |
being on the job is different from, as i said, maintaining a sustained effort against a lasting foe. the main difference is that once a runner is finished with a contract, he doesn't have to worry about the target's next move unless that move is against the runner specifically. the runner's scope is limited, with regards to the target.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| even if one grants that a willingness to die somehow imparts greater ability in the realm of strategic planning, realistically it's not going to be enough to overcome the huge advantages the Yaks have. |
If you want to see things in terms of situational modifiers, then I think it's without doubt that being willing to die will grant a bonus to your strategy roll (or whatever). Being able to ignore the consequences of certain actions opens up a vast additional array of additional tactical options along. Same goes for willingness to be identified, willingness to be arrested and all the other things that presumably rate lower than dieing.
But for me the issue of GM discretion was already a given and didn't need to be debated. What I have been arguing is (a) what is realistic and (b) what is good for the game - i.e. how GM discretion should be exercised.
Seattle is a big city. The PCs could (and apparently have) hole up in any number of places that the Yakuza will be unlikely to find them. And if they achieve that, then their capacity to damage the Yakuza exceeds the Yakuza's ability to absorb it. A small, skilled group with explosives and firearms can wreak havoc on a military force that operates openly. They can certainly wreak havoc on a criminal organization that operates secretively.
The Yakuza have two good counters that I see. One is to go to ground - they should be able to find some reasonably good hiding places. Two - sending spirits across the city to find the PCs or possibly divining magic to learn where the PCs will strike next. The PCs apparently are covering number one quite well through having already captured members in the loop: Going to ground entirely kind of cedes victory to the PCs as it renders the ability of the Yakuza to operate as an actual organisation inert. They are essentially fugitives at that point. I do, however, like the idea of the Yakuza in their sharp suits, with all their flash, crowding into the little squat of some old seeress in Puyallup to ask where the PCs will next strike,
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| If you want to see things in terms of situational modifiers, then I think it's without doubt that being willing to die will grant a bonus to your strategy roll (or whatever). Being able to ignore the consequences of certain actions opens up a vast additional array of additional tactical options along. Same goes for willingness to be identified, willingness to be arrested and all the other things that presumably rate lower than dieing. |
i used the modifier analogy because it was handy, and because i knew toturi--being a truly dedicated rules lawyer--would grasp it instantly. don't read too much into it.
as i've said, the opportunities that open up when you stop discounting strategies that would lead to your own death are not enough to overcome the relatively fantastic amounts of power available to the Yaks.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| Seattle is a big city. The PCs could (and apparently have) hole up in any number of places that the Yakuza will be unlikely to find them. |
untrue, because the Yaks don't have to go around looking. all they have to do is post a decent reward, and the entire city will turn against the runners. hell, post it on ShadowSea and other runner message boards. any runner worth his salt would turn over the PCs in a heartbeat.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| And if they achieve that, then their capacity to damage the Yakuza exceeds the Yakuza's ability to absorb it. A small, skilled group with explosives and firearms can wreak havoc on a military force that operates openly. They can certainly wreak havoc on a criminal organization that operates secretively. |
exactly the opposite. the runners face a much more difficult challenge for the simple reason that the Yaks are secretive. the runners have no specific knowledge of important Yak holdings. they might know a few hangouts for low-end Yak soldiers; they might have even heard rumors that the Yaks own this bar or that restaurant. they're not going to know where the Yaks keep anything of real value--the money, the drugs, the weapons shipments, the important Yak lieutenants. in order to hit the Yaks where it hurts, they have to find where it hurts. but they can't do that, because everyone who likes them is either dead or in hiding--and everyone else is gunning for the PCs because of the fat reward the Yaks have put out.
aside from that, the runners have no real way to resupply. as noted, all of their contacts are dead or in hiding. they could try to stock up by looting Yaks they kill, but there's a catch-22 there: they can go after the Yaks who aren't expecting it, who will be lightly armed--and therefore won't net the runners much in the way of resupply. or, they can go for the Yaks who are more prepared--and who will therefore have a much better chance of killing or seriously injuring the runners, and who will in any case require greater expenditures of ammo and other supplies to take down.
This is going in circles. I'll simply restate my reasoning, then I am done with the canon/RAW nitpicking.
1. I assume the runners are not the best runners of the world, but that there are numerous NPC runners who are equally skilled. If you assume that no NPCs exists that match the PCs for skills, abilities and gear, then that's an entirely different campaign than what I am talking about.
2. I assume the Yakuza in Seattle (even without backing from MCT) has enough money on hand to hire several runner teams and contacts and putting out bounties without feeling the loss. If in your campaign the Yakuza (even with backing from MCT) can't afford to hire top runners without hurting, then again we're not on the same page.
3. I assume that the vast majority of the runners, informants, fixers and other denizens of the Shadows work for money, and, while not willing to die, will risk a lot for a very big reward.
4. I also assume that while the mafia or the triads will happily exploit any weakness the yakuza will show in this conflict, they are not about to openly support the runners, or otherwise risk a full-out gang war over this, instead preferring to simply capture a bigger slice more of the underworld business while the yakuza are occupied without leaving the "business as usual" area. They might even be willing to trade the runners to the yakuza, in exchange for money.
Based on those assumptions, I come to the conclusions that the runners would be facing not just the Yakuzas themselves, but a lot - a whole lot - of equally skilled runners/bounty hunters hired by the yakuza, and a town's worth of informants and contacts trying to get a cut of the reward. Depending on the size of Seattle's shadowrunner scene, there might be several, partially overlapping networks of contacts working against them just from the local teams hired to go after them - and all with the runners' own contact network ripped apart already.
Under those circumstances, I do not see how the runners have much of a chance to survive, or even do much damage. Maybe one or two spectacular strikes, but nothing that will really hurt the yakuza before they end up dead - in a way a bit like the RAF terrorists when they attacked Germany in the 70s for the first time, just with less popular support, and with less legal hurdles getting in the way of finding them.
1. I assume the runners are not the best runners of the world, but that there are numerous NPC runners who are equally skilled. If you assume that no NPCs exists that match the PCs for skills, abilities and gear, then that's an entirely different campaign than what I am talking about.
2. I assume the Yakuza in Seattle (even without backing from MCT) has enough money on hand to hire several runner teams and contacts and putting out bounties without feeling the loss. If in your campaign the Yakuza (even with backing from MCT) can't afford to hire top runners without hurting, then again we're not on the same page.
3. I assume that the vast majority of the runners, informants, fixers and other denizens of the Shadows work for money, and, while not willing to die, will risk a lot for a very big reward.
4. I also assume that while the mafia or the triads will happily exploit any weakness the yakuza will show in this conflict, they are not about to openly support the runners, or otherwise risk a full-out gang war over this, instead preferring to simply capture a bigger slice more of the underworld business while the yakuza are occupied without leaving the "business as usual" area. They might even be willing to trade the runners to the yakuza, in exchange for money.
Based on those assumptions, I come to the conclusions that the runners would be facing not just the Yakuzas themselves, but a lot - a whole lot - of equally skilled runners/bounty hunters hired by the yakuza, and a town's worth of informants and contacts trying to get a cut of the reward. Depending on the size of Seattle's shadowrunner scene, there might be several, partially overlapping networks of contacts working against them just from the local teams hired to go after them - and all with the runners' own contact network ripped apart already.
Under those circumstances, I do not see how the runners have much of a chance to survive, or even do much damage. Maybe one or two spectacular strikes, but nothing that will really hurt the yakuza before they end up dead - in a way a bit like the RAF terrorists when they attacked Germany in the 70s for the first time, just with less popular support, and with less legal hurdles getting in the way of finding them.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 30 2008, 07:28 AM) |
| i used the modifier analogy because it was handy, and because i knew toturi--being a truly dedicated rules lawyer--would grasp it instantly. don't read too much into it. as i've said, the opportunities that open up when you stop discounting strategies that would lead to your own death are not enough to overcome the relatively fantastic amounts of power available to the Yaks. |
Well I did say "if you want to see things in terms of situational modifiers." Situational modifiers are only ways of representing descriptive circumstance which is the level I was talking at originally anyway. In either way of looking at things - quantified as dice or left abstract, I believe my point still stands. You say that opportunities that come up when you waive consequences are not enough to overcome the power advantage that the Yakuza have. I say that they really are. Obviously we can both run the Yakuza in our games however we choose, but I think it is realistic to accept that they are vulnerable to the PCs. Would you deny that even a military force, operating openly, i.e. guns at the ready, denying civillians free travel, etc. is still vulnerable to dedicated people with explosives or firearms? How much less then a criminal organisation operating within society? The Yakuza's strongest defense is anonymity and as we'll see, that isn't going to save them.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
untrue, because the Yaks don't have to go around looking. all they have to do is post a decent reward, and the entire city will turn against the runners. hell, post it on ShadowSea and other runner message boards. any runner worth his salt would turn over the PCs in a heartbeat. |
You're portraying the Yakuza as both all-pervasive and uncaring about people's awareness of them. They can't run ads on the 6 o'clock news every night. How do they get the word out on the nicely swept streets of Bellevue? Or even little suburbs outside Seattle? It's a small shout in a busy station. Quite honestly, you can walk out of the range of the Yakuza's informants and influence, let alone drive. The PCs will always be vulnerable to the chance encounter - and if they were ordinary people concerned for long term consequences, then they'd be living in fear of that. But they're not and they wont be. Short of GM fiat - the doorman at the hotel is nephew to a Yakuza etc - it's not unreasonable for the PCs to hide from the Yakuza through relocation and we haven't even started on the serious precautions the PCs could take and apparently are taking - nanopaste disguises, Physical Mask spells, false ids and certified cred sticks. You posit a game where PCs are able to hide from the police yet can be instantly found by organised crime. That to me is unrealistic.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
exactly the opposite. the runners face a much more difficult challenge for the simple reason that the Yaks are secretive. |
I've covered this several times now. It is plain from what's been said that the PCs already have good leads on the Yakuza through (a) good starting knowledge as figures in the local underworld themselves and (b) capture of one or more Yakuza members and surveillance.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| everyone who likes them is either dead or in hiding--and everyone else is gunning for the PCs because of the fat reward the Yaks have put out. |
I don't know why you accord the Yaks the ability to withstand violent attacks and targetting but take for granted that other individuals and groups can be wiped out by them with impunity. Everyone has friends and if the Yakuza hit someone for talking or associating with the PCs, then that's just more enemies for them to deal with. Enemies who are themselves part of gangs, syndicates, arms rings, bouncer cliques, whatever. Because these are the sorts that the criminal PCs are likely to be talking to. If your response to finding you have enemies is to make more and powerful ones, then you're not going to be Oyaban for long.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
aside from that, the runners have no real way to resupply. as noted, all of their contacts are dead or in hiding. |
No. As stated by you, all contacts are dead or in hiding. You seem to have this idea that illegal trades and contacts are listed as friends on MySpace 2070. People who sell illegal firearms to hardened criminals are not usually prevented by worrying if some other faction will object. Sure, if it's a dealer with Yakuza ties, then no. But if it's not, or someone with Vory or Mafia ties or an independent, they're not going to care. If someone is willing to contravene UCAS law, go against Lone Star, then they're willing to deal with someone that the Yaks have a grudge with. People who sell guns to criminals do so in the expectation that those guns will be used on people who don't want to be shot. They deal with it. For every arms dealer you find that would say "no, not crossing the Yaks," I'll find you three that don't give a shit. If the Yaks inspired such fear that no-one would sell guns to people they didn't like, then they would rule Seattle down to the last nut and bolt. But they don't. And likely they'll never know who sold the guns to the PCs. And the PCs already have guns and a fair quantity of explosives by the sounds of it. These are PCs, remember. All they may need is to restock some bullets and I hope you're not telling me the PCs can't get them.
I mentioned the film Payback earlier which is in the area of this sort of discussion and also very much recommended as a Shadowrun sort of film. But I also definitely recommend for some perspective on this a film called The Long Good Friday. It's quite old and deals with a London gangster who rips off the IRA. When he delivers the line: "IRA? Fuck the IRA," you know that things are not going to go well for him. The story of organised crime meeting a paramilitary force (and losing) is grim stuff.
-K.
For the most part, Fuchs is saying what I agree with (and what I've been saying for a while on this thread). So consider this a "+1" or whatever to all his points. If the Yakuza is a bunch of bumbling retards and the Shadowrunners can walk all over any given organized crime syndicate in your game, well, good for your game. Have fun. You are, I suppose, every bit as right, or wrong, as others of us.
| QUOTE |
| I mentioned the film Payback earlier which is in the area of this sort of discussion and also very much recommended as a Shadowrun sort of film. But I also definitely recommend for some perspective on this a film called The Long Good Friday. It's quite old and deals with a London gangster who rips off the IRA. When he delivers the line: "IRA? Fuck the IRA," you know that things are not going to go well for him. The story of organised crime meeting a paramilitary force (and losing) is grim stuff. |
The problems with the films you suggest is that (1) the players aren't Mel Gibson and should not be expected to pull off all the crazy shit Mel Gibson pulls off, and (2) the Yaks (and all the other organized crime groups as presented in Shadowrun) are both organized crime organizations and vengeful paramility groups. There's your "grim stuff."
If the yaks are running around with their hair on fire trying to kill some runners, isn't it in the very best interests of the vory/mafia/triads/whoever else to slide them some assistance on the down low.
'Cause while the yaks are busy running around with their enforcers after tough guys with guns, the Vory or whoever can go after softer targets, like dealer networks or illegal brothels, and make some market share before the targets get squashed.
'Cause while the yaks are busy running around with their enforcers after tough guys with guns, the Vory or whoever can go after softer targets, like dealer networks or illegal brothels, and make some market share before the targets get squashed.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| You're portraying the Yakuza as both all-pervasive and uncaring about people's awareness of them. They can't run ads on the 6 o'clock news every night. How do they get the word out on the nicely swept streets of Bellevue? Or even little suburbs outside Seattle? It's a small shout in a busy station. Quite honestly, you can walk out of the range of the Yakuza's informants and influence, let alone drive. |
how do they get word to the streets of Bellevue? simple, they have their dealers talk to the mid-level corporate types who live there, who buy drugs from them. moreover, if the PCs walk out of range of the Yaks, they've walked out of range of their ability to keep tabs on the Yaks. the Yaks aren't going to sit still and wait, they're going to be on the move, taking precautions and going on the offensive. if the PCs can't keep up, they're going to find themselves outmaneuvered.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| I've covered this several times now. It is plain from what's been said that the PCs already have good leads on the Yakuza through (a) good starting knowledge as figures in the local underworld themselves and (b) capture of one or more Yakuza members and surveillance. |
i don't see much evidence of that in the original posts. yes, they interrogated the Yak squad that was sent after the PCs, and got the name of the guy who ordered the strike. yes, they've got a guy who doesn't like Yaks--that probably implies a certain level of intimacy with their operations, but if he thinks that all Yaks are animals it's probably not that intimate. so, yeah, they have enough information to wipe out anybody directly involved in the initial strike against the PCs.
but what they're apparently planning is much, much wider in scope. they're talking about taking out the oyabun--one of the three (or is it two, now) top Yaks in Seattle, possibly the entire northwest. i spent four years in the Army as a signal support systems specialist; that in no way prepares me to take on the 2nd Infantry.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| I don't know why you accord the Yaks the ability to withstand violent attacks and targetting but take for granted that other individuals and groups can be wiped out by them with impunity. |
it's simple: the Yaks are bigger. compare a Little Debbie snack cake to one of the big birthday cakes you can buy at the grocery store. with the snack cake, if you take a big bite, half the cake is gone. with the birthday cake, the same size bite doesn't significantly reduce the amount of cake remaining. i'm not denying that the PCs can get themselves a mouthful of cake, i'm saying that the amount of cake they can consume is insignificant compared to the amount of cake that exists. and that if they try to hard to eat the whole cake, they're going to bite off more than they can chew. man, i really like this analogy.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| People who sell illegal firearms to hardened criminals are not usually prevented by worrying if some other faction will object. |
i'm not just talking about objecting--though they might object if they knew that the last three gun dealers the PCs worked with were executed messily by the Yaks, specifically for the crime of selling guns to the PCs. but it's also a matter of economics: a gun dealer can make a few thousand selling guns to the PCs, or he can make a few thousand more and earn a favor from a Yak liuetenant by calling the Yaks with the PCs' location.
I'd like to ask people who think the yakuza will lose one question: If the yakuza, with all their money, and backed by MCT, will lose a struggle with a single team of runners, would a corp lose such a struggle as well?
Think about it, and then think about the consequences if you say "yes". I'll give you a hint: "Protection racket - pay the team x Millions, or get destroyed, Corp!"
Think about it, and then think about the consequences if you say "yes". I'll give you a hint: "Protection racket - pay the team x Millions, or get destroyed, Corp!"
Canonically 1 man with a huge supply of money took down a AA corp and almost took out a AAA corp
It took the combined actions of the corporate court to prevent that
you were saying?
It took the combined actions of the corporate court to prevent that
you were saying?
So, okay. Here's a question for all the "Yaks lose" guys.
Why aren't Shadowrunner teams all over the world routinely overthrowing organized crime syndicates if it's so easy for 4-5 guys to do exactly that? How do organized criminal groups exist in your game worlds? Or gangs, for that matter?
Why aren't Shadowrunner teams all over the world routinely overthrowing organized crime syndicates if it's so easy for 4-5 guys to do exactly that? How do organized criminal groups exist in your game worlds? Or gangs, for that matter?
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Canonically 1 man with a huge supply of money took down a AA corp and almost took out a AAA corp It took the combined actions of the corporate court to prevent that you were saying? |
There's a slight difference between a shadowrunner team (you know, those guys who risk life and limb for some money) and someone with "a huge supply of money".
And, ironically, I have been saying numerous times that the Yakuza's main advantage is their money.
Of course, if your runners have the money ressources to rival the yakuza, or even a AA corp, then we're - again - talking about different things.
| QUOTE (Fuchs) | ||
There's a slight difference between a shadowrunner team (you know, those guys who risk life and limb for some money) and someone with "a huge supply of money". And, ironically, I have been saying numerous times that the Yakuza's main advantage is their money. Of course, if your runners have the money ressources to rival the yakuza, or even a AA corp, then we're - again - talking about different things. |
But the proportion is right.
Art/runners is about the same as AAA/yakuza gumi.
I disagree. But then, I don't play a game where the runners are without peers - or have money on the scale mentioned. Which is why I am asking why the runners would be able to win against a corp too, in your campaign.
| QUOTE (Fuchs) |
| I disagree. But then, I don't play a game where the runners are without peers - or have money on the scale mentioned. Which is why I am asking why the runners would be able to win against a corp too, in your campaign. |
I do not understand.
The proportion of Art's total resources compared to a runner team is on the same magnitude as a yakuza gumi compared to a AAA's. But then I don't play a game that deviates (much) from canon.
Which is why I am asking why the runners cannot gravely hurt a yakuza gumi, in your campaign.
I am simply asking why runners cannot take down a corp in your world. What does the corp have that the yakuza (especially if backed by MCT) has not?
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
I do not understand. The proportion of Art's total resources compared to a runner team is on the same magnitude as a yakuza gumi compared to a AAA's. But then I don't play a game that deviates (much) from canon. Which is why I am asking why the runners cannot gravely hurt a yakuza gumi, in your campaign. |
And I answered that already - in my campaign, the yakuza has more ressources than the runner team, more power, and more influence, since it can easily afford to hire 5 or more teams at the same power level of the runner team to go after the runner, and still has their own men, and their allies on gang and corp side, to help them. What I want to know is where in your campaign, the line is drawn between "runners can take this organisation down, but not this."
Can the runner team take down an AA corp? Or a triple-A? If not, why not?
| QUOTE (Fuchs) |
| And I answered that already - in my campaign, the yakuza has more ressources than the runner team, more power, and more influence, since it can easily afford to hire 5 or more teams at the same power level of the runner team to go after the runner, and still has their own men, and their allies on gang and corp side, to help them. What I want to know is where in your campaign, the line is drawn between "runners can take this organisation down, but not this." Can the runner team take down an AA corp? Or a triple-A? If not, why not? |
In my campaign, the yakuza may be able to hire many teams to go after the runner team, but unless the teams are hired before the runners go for broke, they will not be able to be effective in hunting down the runners before they do their damage, whether the yakuza can survive this run of attacks is dependent on GM discretion, but I will base the yakuza on canon material.
Unlike a yakuza gumi which has a localised power base (which could be at best the equivalent of a A corp), a AA has a decentralised power base. The logistics involved in taking down a AA or AAA is further compounded by the fact that there are canon NPC forces that were not relegated to Grunt status(unlike the Renraku Red Samurai and equivalent forces) and remain as Superior/Ultimate NPCs themselves. Furthermore, there is no canon AA/AAA corp leadership statted in the book(unlike the organised crime where there is the Mafia consiglieri), which would probably force me to invoke Prime Runner rules as much I do not want to.
And the fact that according to the OP, MCT (an AAA corporation) is backing the Yakuza enters your calculations where exactly?
Toturi and Fuchs, I think you are arguing different things.
Position one: The runners are in hiding, have information on their target, and can do serious damage. They have initiative, because the Yakuza can only defeat them if they come out into the open. Depending on the gear they have, destroying the oyabuns house is certainly within reach, and therefore the death of the oyabun, too.
Position two: The yakuza will kill the runners dead in the long run. That depends on how deep the runners will be hiding, but if they don´t, it will come true. The Yakuza can only continue to exist if it eliminates the runners.
I think the alignment between both positions is that the runners can continue to attack until they make their first mistake.
OT: In my campaign, Art would be dead. In a world that has such preference for the attacker, you simply do not believably say "There can only be one of us!" to an organisation that has the ressources to have you killed. You do not make people take the conflict personal. Ever. There will only be one.
Position one: The runners are in hiding, have information on their target, and can do serious damage. They have initiative, because the Yakuza can only defeat them if they come out into the open. Depending on the gear they have, destroying the oyabuns house is certainly within reach, and therefore the death of the oyabun, too.
Position two: The yakuza will kill the runners dead in the long run. That depends on how deep the runners will be hiding, but if they don´t, it will come true. The Yakuza can only continue to exist if it eliminates the runners.
I think the alignment between both positions is that the runners can continue to attack until they make their first mistake.
OT: In my campaign, Art would be dead. In a world that has such preference for the attacker, you simply do not believably say "There can only be one of us!" to an organisation that has the ressources to have you killed. You do not make people take the conflict personal. Ever. There will only be one.
(Who's Art, btw? And what exactly did he do?)
| QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jan 30 2008, 10:34 PM) |
| (Who's Art, btw? And what exactly did he do?) |
Art Dankwalter. Beetlehead recipient of a sum of moneys from Dunk's will. Took down a AA corp as practice. Almost took down a AAA for real. Omega Order by way of Orbital Bovine Bombardment aka Thor Shot stopped him.
His meteoric rise is also often decried as one of the lamest and least canonical of the recent plot devices, and he failed and got his ass killed in the long run, so I can't help but wonder why people are pointing to it and saying "See? Shadowrunners can take down the Yakuza!"
| QUOTE (Fuchs) |
| And the fact that according to the OP, MCT (an AAA corporation) is backing the Yakuza enters your calculations where exactly? |
It does not. The yakuza is calling on favors/cashing in favors from MCT, while the yakuza has MCT connections, there's only so far that the MCT will be willing to provide support for the yakuza. In fact, the MCT need not support this particular yakuza at all, when it can let it die and have another yakuza clan supplant it in the city.
Also MCT when you get down to it is far more effective as a defensive AAA, due to it having the best zero zones in canon(at least in shadowtalk) than an offensive one(which MCT tends to use yakuza as its offense). Therefore, IMO, even if MCT is unable to stop the destruction of its surrogate yakuzas, it can stop the runners from destroying itself due to its superior Zero Zone defenses.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jan 30 2008, 10:43 PM) |
| His meteoric rise is also often decried as one of the lamest and least canonical of the recent plot devices, and he failed and got his ass killed in the long run, so I can't help but wonder why people are pointing to it and saying "See? Shadowrunners can take down the Yakuza!" |
He did not fail. Novatech the AAA corp as an independent entity is no more(which is why Mr Villiers is so pissed). IMO, he suceeded in his objective.
He died. But as I recall, the runners are also willing to die. So I can't help but wonder why people are pointing to it and saying "See? Shadowrunners cannot take down the yakuza!"
Difficult, yes. Certainly fatal. But when survival is not part of the mission requirements or part of the mission objective, then fatalities is not cause for mission failure.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
It does not. The yakuza is calling on favors/cashing in favors from MCT, while the yakuza has MCT connections, there's only so far that the MCT will be willing to provide support for the yakuza. In fact, the MCT need not support this particular yakuza at all, when it can let it die and have another yakuza clan supplant it in the city. Also MCT when you get down to it is far more effective as a defensive AAA, due to it having the best zero zones in canon(at least in shadowtalk) than an offensive one(which MCT tends to use yakuza as its offense). Therefore, IMO, even if MCT is unable to stop the destruction of its surrogate yakuzas, it can stop the runners from destroying itself due to its superior Zero Zone defenses. |
If you think zero zones are what keeps shadowrunners from destroying a triple-A corp, and that MCT is unable to protect its own yakuzas against a shadowrunner team, then we are talking about very, very different games.
| QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jan 30 2008, 11:02 PM) |
| If you think zero zones are what keeps shadowrunners from destroying a triple-A corp, and that MCT is unable to protect its own yakuzas against a shadowrunner team, then we are talking about very, very different games. |
Indeed we are. However as I see it, my game is as close to canon as I can make it, without official writer/developer input.
In order for this(shadowrunners destroying a AAA) to happen however, the runners have to consistently be able to defeat canon Professional Rating 5. Whereas the runners have to consistently defeat Professional Rating 4, until MCT see fit to deploy elite MCT troops to guard its subsidiaries assets.
As a friend commented to me, this thread has turned into in an interesting combination of tennis and Pin-The-Tail-On-The-Donkey.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
He did not fail. Novatech the AAA corp as an independent entity is no more(which is why Mr Villiers is so pissed). IMO, he suceeded in his objective. He died. But as I recall, the runners are also willing to die. So I can't help but wonder why people are pointing to it and saying "See? Shadowrunners cannot take down the yakuza!" Difficult, yes. Certainly fatal. But when survival is not part of the mission requirements or part of the mission objective, then fatalities is not cause for mission failure. |
Art got that ultimate windfall as help. And still failed to destroy Novatech in all but the name. And died for it. Great victory, that.
Destroying the kumi in name is something the runners can achive. Terminate the current leadership, someone else will take over. The new oyabun will know who killed his predecessor, so the PCs should end the conflict at that point. Those who survived, that is.
I think from canon we can agree that any oyabun is prepared for an all-out seoulpa attack. My group would not like the thought of attacking the Green Serpent Guard... Yet depending on the group, it can be done if fatalities are accepted.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| He did not fail. Novatech the AAA corp as an independent entity is no more(which is why Mr Villiers is so pissed). IMO, he suceeded in his objective. |
that's ridiculous. at best, Art was a factor in forcing Novatech to go public, which was a factor in its ultimate demise. by that logic, yeah, sure, maybe the runners will take out the one Yak who could have saved his clan from some upcoming act of god that has nothing to do with the runners. victoly!
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| In order for this(shadowrunners destroying a AAA) to happen however, the runners have to consistently be able to defeat canon Professional Rating 5. Whereas the runners have to consistently defeat Professional Rating 4, until MCT see fit to deploy elite MCT troops to guard its subsidiaries assets. |
yes, because by canon, the Yaks can't possibly field enough shooters to make professional rating largely irrelevant. oh, right, forgot--the runners magically know everything about the Yaks, and can therefore automatically avoid any situation where the Yaks could concentrate that many soldiers in one place. my bad.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
that's ridiculous. at best, Art was a factor in forcing Novatech to go public, which was a factor in its ultimate demise. by that logic, yeah, sure, maybe the runners will take out the one Yak who could have saved his clan from some upcoming act of god that has nothing to do with the runners. victoly! |
I think that you will find by reading the end of System Failure. You will find that Mr Richard Villiers disputes your interpretation
and as you said the heads of the major organisations are far more knowledgable than standard individuals like you and me
Art got lucky. it's like punching a guy, and the guy stumbling back into a train that neither of you saw coming down the track. yeah, you killed the guy, but it's not like punching people is always going to have that effect, and it's not like you can take the credit for having a lethal punch. Villiers was put out, but his company went on to gain even more power. yeah, Art punched way above his weight class, but if it hadn't been for a lot other factors, his lucky shot wouldn't have had much effect.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| I think that you will find by reading the end of System Failure. You will find that Mr Richard Villiers disputes your interpretation and as you said the heads of the major organisations are far more knowledgable than standard individuals like you and me |
Really?
I was thinking the same thing about you.
See, why Villiers is pissed is because he made a bad deal. Shortly after Crash 2.0, everything was coming up Milhouse for him. Then he sees what Transys-Erika has, and that THEY are the future. Being the corporate raider he is, he figures "Oh, this is too good to pass up." But as he was buying Transys, Celedyr was taking control of that corp and becoming its primary shareholder, and thus one of NeoNET's largest shareholders at the same time that Samantha Villiers was hamstringing her ex-husband from behind. So in the end, his overconfidence got him stuck in a bad place. But it wasn't for desperation that it came to this. On November 2, 2064 he was on top of the world, and hardly fighting for his life.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| Art got lucky. it's like punching a guy, and the guy stumbling back into a train that neither of you saw coming down the track. yeah, you killed the guy, but it's not like punching people is always going to have that effect, and it's not like you can take the credit for having a lethal punch. Villiers was put out, but his company went on to gain even more power. yeah, Art punched way above his weight class, but if it hadn't been for a lot other factors, his lucky shot wouldn't have had much effect. |
Don't be so fast to put things down to Luck.
Art spent considerable time practicing and learning how to dismantle and destroy large corporate systems.
While He was killed,. he did enough damage to Novatech to force them to appeal to the Corporate court to help.
Even then, before he died he had forced the financial position of Novatech so far down that they were forced to sell stock, (making a private megacorp go public is a serious piece of damage) This had forever weakened Novatech, the crash just poured salt onto the wound.
Then, as you stated, Villiers fell back on his raider tactics and went into Mergers to survive. These mergers strengthened his position.
Even after all the gains from the mergers, The best Villiers could get was the same situation he hated back in the '50s
Not all fo that was luck
The crash made it worse. but Art had already dealt a major blow, he made Novatech vulnerable to the likes of Villiers and Knight.
This could be seen as intentional, because he had learned from his Miami run, when a corp is past a certain size the best chance is to tear open a bunch of bleeding wounds and get the attnetion of the piranhas and sharks.
don't attribute too much to luck? for god's sake, he inherited millions of dollars from a dragon. and at the perfect moment, just when Art had shoved Novatech as hard as he possibly could, the entire world changed, and because of Art's--or, rather Dunk's--timing, Novatech had to change with it. so, ok, let's not put it down to luck--let's put it down to Dunk planned for it to happen. luck, draconic manipulation, fate--the guy had help, and he still didn't do more than seriously inconvenience Novatech.
and let's not forget the fact that Novatech didn't die. it got bigger and richer. Villiers responded to Art's machinations by, yes, asking for help--and using that help to not only wipe out Art, but to pull Novatech up the ladder.
so, yes, the runners might prick the Yaks. and the Yaks, like Novatech, might respond by getting some help from higher up--help that puts them in debt, that inconveniences them. and then would come the crushening, during which the runners would be crushed.
and let's not forget the fact that Novatech didn't die. it got bigger and richer. Villiers responded to Art's machinations by, yes, asking for help--and using that help to not only wipe out Art, but to pull Novatech up the ladder.
so, yes, the runners might prick the Yaks. and the Yaks, like Novatech, might respond by getting some help from higher up--help that puts them in debt, that inconveniences them. and then would come the crushening, during which the runners would be crushed.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| my bad. |
Yes, that is true. I applaud you for admitting it.
The Corporate Court didn't intervene because it was affecting Novatech.
It intervened because Art's actions were directly harming ALL of the Big Ten. And when that happens, the perpetrator gets curb-stomped.
Dankwalther is a deus ex machina. He turned 34 billion (pre-tax) dollars, which becomes 6 to 8.5 billion nuyen depending on the exchange rate minus like 40% of that in taxes into "trillions" of nuyen in a manner of two years or so. And yet taking on Gunderson nearly wiped him out and did not totally annihilate the corp. He is the embodiment of a walking plot device, and the most damage he ever did was taking out the epoxy factories, which unlike the Secret Yak Headquarters is going to be public knowledge and something that can be found when you're throwing around billions of nuyen.
Besides that, the IPO took nearly a year. If Novatech was hurting that badly, it wouldn't have even survived to November. But you seem dead set in believing otherwise, which is fine. Wrong. But fine.
In this instance, it's comparing a catamaran to an aircraft carrier. He had assets to counter what Novatech could throw at him that the runners don't when being hunted down by the Yaks: money (to counter-bribe, equip and operate), time, and a mind that was capable of blowing Damien Knight and Richard Villiers out of the water in terms of making money. It's the sigma six outlier of lucky, clever investors--someone who takes a large fortune, and turns it into fortune bigger than most GDPs, and then invests every bit of it into one project.
It intervened because Art's actions were directly harming ALL of the Big Ten. And when that happens, the perpetrator gets curb-stomped.
Dankwalther is a deus ex machina. He turned 34 billion (pre-tax) dollars, which becomes 6 to 8.5 billion nuyen depending on the exchange rate minus like 40% of that in taxes into "trillions" of nuyen in a manner of two years or so. And yet taking on Gunderson nearly wiped him out and did not totally annihilate the corp. He is the embodiment of a walking plot device, and the most damage he ever did was taking out the epoxy factories, which unlike the Secret Yak Headquarters is going to be public knowledge and something that can be found when you're throwing around billions of nuyen.
Besides that, the IPO took nearly a year. If Novatech was hurting that badly, it wouldn't have even survived to November. But you seem dead set in believing otherwise, which is fine. Wrong. But fine.
In this instance, it's comparing a catamaran to an aircraft carrier. He had assets to counter what Novatech could throw at him that the runners don't when being hunted down by the Yaks: money (to counter-bribe, equip and operate), time, and a mind that was capable of blowing Damien Knight and Richard Villiers out of the water in terms of making money. It's the sigma six outlier of lucky, clever investors--someone who takes a large fortune, and turns it into fortune bigger than most GDPs, and then invests every bit of it into one project.
Hey, just curious (still), but no one's answered my question yet. Sorry to take away from the whole Art conversation (enthralling as it is), but...
If 4-5 Shadowrunners can destroy Seattle's Yakuza so easily, how does organized crime exist in your game worlds?
If 4-5 Shadowrunners can destroy Seattle's Yakuza so easily, how does organized crime exist in your game worlds?
My answer would be that it couldn't, but then again I'm on the side of the Yaks turning the Runners into meat-puppets for Bubba the Love Troll. 
However, if I were looking at things from the other side I think I'd say that Big Crime can exist because the perfect storm of a bunch of extremely dangerous people with nothing to lose is very, very rare even in the Sixth World.
However, if I were looking at things from the other side I think I'd say that Big Crime can exist because the perfect storm of a bunch of extremely dangerous people with nothing to lose is very, very rare even in the Sixth World.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| If 4-5 Shadowrunners can destroy Seattle's Yakuza so easily, how does organized crime exist in your game worlds? |
If 4-5 shadowrunners can destroy a city's local yakuza by paying their lives, how does organized crime exist in your game worlds?
Answer: Simple. Organised Crime is not usually not stupid enough to force shadowrunners into a corner and shadowrunners are usually not suicidal.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
If 4-5 shadowrunners can destroy a city's local yakuza by paying their lives, how does organized crime exist in your game worlds? Answer: Simple. Organised Crime is not usually not stupid enough to force shadowrunners into a corner and shadowrunners are usually not suicidal. |
Beat me to it. I'd also add to "willing to pay with their lives" willing to pay with other people's too. Someone that truly has nothing to lose, or rather thinks they don't, is not so common. It's particularly uncommon amongst people who are talented and well-resourced. It is especially uncommon to find this attitude present in an entire group of friends. It usually only happens with PCs.
As regards this:
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The problems with the films you suggest is that (1) the players aren't Mel Gibson and should not be expected to pull off all the crazy shit Mel Gibson pulls off, and (2) the Yaks (and all the other organized crime groups as presented in Shadowrun) are both organized crime organizations and vengeful paramility groups. There's your "grim stuff." |
Payback is actually fairly realistic. There's some strokes of luck and Lucy Liu's character is a PC, but it's all well-thought out and certainly within the bounds of realism of Shadowrun. As to the Yaks being a paramilitary force... well, my point all along has been that the ability to blow other people up does not prevent you from being blown up yourself. I think the Yaks can't be toppled by PCs position has stemmed from GMs deciding a priori that the Yaks Status Quo should not be affected by the PCs and justifying from there.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Yes, that is true. I applaud you for admitting it. |
dude, my argument with you ended two pages ago, when you admitted that the only way the PCs could succeed would be the GM letting them. beyond that, i'm really not sure what your stance is; cute, zero-content responses don't really help clarify anything.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Answer: Simple. Organised Crime is not usually not stupid enough to force shadowrunners into a corner and shadowrunners are usually not suicidal. |
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| Beat me to it. I'd also add to "willing to pay with their lives" willing to pay with other people's too. Someone that truly has nothing to lose, or rather thinks they don't, is not so common. It's particularly uncommon amongst people who are talented and well-resourced. It is especially uncommon to find this attitude present in an entire group of friends. It usually only happens with PCs. |
that is patently ridiculous. OC is in the business of fucking people over. that's the entire basis of their every operation--fucking people over and getting away with it. you two are seriously going to sit there and try to say that in forty years of violent, chaotic Seattle OC history, no syndicate has ever fucked over a group of talented runners? piss them off so badly that the runners decided to go kamikaze? through all the struggles, through all the chaos and shifting factions, through all the betrayals, all the OC syndicates just... what, got lucky? dodged a bullet? walked around on tippy-toes when it came to betraying runners, in a setting where some Johnsons consider it SOP to betray runners?
and it's not like OC syndicates only come stocked with mooks. there are highly-talented people working for OCs, sometimes even in teams. how, then, can OC possibly exist, since it is inevitable that some of these highly-talented individuals will find their lives shattered by an enemy syndicate? and it is also inevitable that some of those whose lives are shattered will take it upon themselves to do anything to destroy the offending syndicate, yea even unto their own deaths? hell, don't you remember Mob War? James O'Malley dedicated decades to destroying the Seattle Yaks, fueled by the murder of his brother, and he couldn't pull it off. OC interactions can be generally described as a series of vendettas, and yet very few of these vendettas actually amount to anything. why would a bunch of jokers with no real inroads, no friends, lots of extra enemies, and very little information fare any better than a man who dedicated his entire life to the same goal?
hell, why didn't the Seoulpa rings succeed? those guys are--or were, i'm given to understand--basically just groups of runners who really, really want to kill Yaks. how come they couldn't pull it off? just didn't get mad enough, i guess?
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| Payback is actually fairly realistic. |
it's more realistic than, say, Commando, but there's still a million ways a competently-run syndicate could have taken care of Mel. he didn't get lucky, he got the power of plot. PCs in my games, at least, don't get that benefit. you're usually a pretty level guy; it's very surprising to me that you're such a sucker for Hollywood in this particular regard.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 31 2008, 05:35 PM) | ||||||
dude, my argument with you ended two pages ago, when you admitted that the only way the PCs could succeed would be the GM letting them. beyond that, i'm really not sure what your stance is; cute, zero-content responses don't really help clarify anything.
that is patently ridiculous. OC is in the business of fucking people over. that's the entire basis of their every operation--fucking people over and getting away with it. you two are seriously going to sit there and try to say that in forty years of violent, chaotic Seattle OC history, no syndicate has ever managed to piss off a group of talented runners so badly that the runners decided to go kamikaze? through all the struggles, through all the chaos and shifting factions, through all the betrayals, all the OC syndicates just... what, got lucky? dodged a bullet? walked around on tippy-toes when it came to betraying runners, in a setting where some Johnsons consider it SOP to betray runners? and it's not like OC syndicates only come stocked with mooks. there are highly-talented people working for OCs, sometimes even in teams. how, then, can OC possibly exist, since it is inevitable that some of these highly-talented individuals will find their lives shattered by an enemy syndicate? and it is also inevitable that some of those whose lives are shattered will take it upon themselves to do anything to destroy the offending syndicate, yea even unto their own deaths? hell, don't you remember Mob War? James O'Malley dedicated decades to destroying the Seattle Yaks, fueled by the murder of his brother, and he couldn't pull it off. OC interactions can be generally described as a series of vendettas, and yet very few of these vendettas actually amount to anything. why would a bunch of jokers with no real inroads, no friends, lots of extra enemies, and very little information fare any better than a man who dedicated his entire life to the same goal? |
My admission is the simple statement of fact that any PC or PC group succeeding in any endeavour requires the GM allowing them to. It does not only apply in this situation and is a non-factor since GM fiat is so wildly different that only canon should apply and as far as I am concerned, that post of yours only serves to reinforce my point and I thanked you for admitting I am right.
And shadowrunners are in the business of fucking with people who fuck people over. That is the very basis of shadowrunning - fucking with the fuckers and getting away with it.
Generic canon OC syndicates come stocked only with mooks and a certain NPC which can use certain Prime Runner rules - which is precisely the point I was making.
James O'Malley(canon Named NPC - canon Ultimate NPC since no stats published) was trying to destroy canon Named Seattle Yakuza clans(with a canon Ultimate NPC leader, no stats published). Also one of the canon reasons why we are playing SR4 instead of SR3 is due to a group of suicidal lunatics and their equally fanatical allies. Why would a bunch of talented, resourceful and now suicidal professionals which presumably used to work all sides against the middle fare worse against a generic yakuza clan?
I agree with you that the Yakuza would be hard to kill, MFB. I agree that it would be unlikely that runners would succeed. But recognize you're making certain arguments that aren't quite germaine, and you've made one leap of logic.
The biggest difference between O'Malley & the Seoulpa Rings, vs our hypothetical group of nothing-to-lose-mercenaries is that both O'Malley and the Rings wanted to beat the crap out of the yaks while staying alive and coming out on top of the OC dog pile. That's a HUGE difference. That's the difference between going, "Okay, I won't fire bomb that block because they'll kill my cousin if I do that... I'll spend some time undermining their assets and stealing their money" or saying, "Fuck it, let loose the goddamn napalm. They can't hurt me any more than they have, and I've got nothing left for them to destroy." O'Malley wanted to kill the Yakuza, sure, but he wanted to be in charge of a working Mafia family more.
The biggest difference between O'Malley & the Seoulpa Rings, vs our hypothetical group of nothing-to-lose-mercenaries is that both O'Malley and the Rings wanted to beat the crap out of the yaks while staying alive and coming out on top of the OC dog pile. That's a HUGE difference. That's the difference between going, "Okay, I won't fire bomb that block because they'll kill my cousin if I do that... I'll spend some time undermining their assets and stealing their money" or saying, "Fuck it, let loose the goddamn napalm. They can't hurt me any more than they have, and I've got nothing left for them to destroy." O'Malley wanted to kill the Yakuza, sure, but he wanted to be in charge of a working Mafia family more.
| QUOTE |
| you two are seriously going to sit there and try to say that in forty years of violent, chaotic Seattle OC history, no syndicate has ever fucked over a group of talented runners? piss them off so badly that the runners decided to go kamikaze? |
What evidence do you have that they didn't? What evidence do you have that the runners didn't totally slaughter a yakuza family? Hell, maybe that's how the breakaway radical faction of Yakuza gained power in the first place - the old guard tried to play hardball and got wasted.
I'm not saying it DID happen, I'm just saying that OC history is a sketchy outline at best, with the exception of Mob War. Yes, it would be hard for a runner team to permanently incapacitate a syndicate. But come on, man. You mean to tell me that a team of well-armed, well-trained psychopaths with nothing to lose couldn't seriously damage a syndicate under any circumstances?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| ...GM fiat is so wildly different that only canon should apply... |
the whole point of this discussion to to figure out what the GM should be fiating. using only canon NPCs is also GM fiat; your argument is that we should arbitrarily use your GM fiat instead of anyone else's. my argument is that we should use GM fiat that makes sense within the context of the rules and the setting.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| And shadowrunners are in the business of fucking with people who fuck people over. That is the very basis of shadowrunning - fucking with the fuckers and getting away with it. |
yes, shadowrunners fuck over other fuckers--one fucker at a time. runners only have to worry about winning one battle at any given time, whereas OC syndicates have to worry about both winning battles and winning the war. in this case, the runners are entering a new playing field--instead of winning one battle and then disappearing, they're actually trying to win a war. winning wars is something they don't have any real experience in. the runners, in this case, could win a bunch of battles but still end up losing because they won the wrong battles--they wasted their resources taking down targets that weren't important to the enemy. the Yaks, on the other hand, know all about that sort of thing, because it's what they do every day.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| What evidence do you have that they didn't? What evidence do you have that the runners didn't totally slaughter a yakuza family? Hell, maybe that's how the breakaway radical faction of Yakuza gained power in the first place - the old guard tried to play hardball and got wasted. |
simple--the histories of the Seattle OC syndicates are spelled out fairly explicitly, and none of them mention any such thing. we already know how the breakaway radical faction of the Yakuza--that would be the Shotozumi-rengo--got their start.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| The biggest difference between O'Malley & the Seoulpa Rings, vs our hypothetical group of nothing-to-lose-mercenaries is that both O'Malley and the Rings wanted to beat the crap out of the yaks while staying alive and coming out on top of the OC dog pile. That's a HUGE difference. That's the difference between going, "Okay, I won't fire bomb that block because they'll kill my cousin if I do that... I'll spend some time undermining their assets and stealing their money" or saying, "Fuck it, let loose the goddamn napalm. They can't hurt me any more than they have, and I've got nothing left for them to destroy." O'Malley wanted to kill the Yakuza, sure, but he wanted to be in charge of a working Mafia family more. |
to an extent. the thing is, you're thinking in terms of "willing to die" versus "not willing to die", and i'm thinking in terms of total effectiveness--in which willingess to die is a factor. toturi and knasser, as best i can tell, think that willingess to die multiplies your effectiveness by infinity. i believe that willingness to die, in combination with other attributes and assets, can multiply your effectiveness by a lot--the total of which is still less than what an OC syndicate can bring to bear.
regardless, let's not forget the other part of that paragraph. OC syndicates, in addition to their mooks, have personally powerful members. i know toturi will deny their existence, because they're not statted, but for everyone else--what's the likelihood that some of these personally powerful members won't have, at some point, lost so much to an enemy OC syndicate that they decide they have nothing left to lose? given their existence and given the apparently infinite power that willingness to die gives a person, why aren't the OCs blowing each other up every other week?
it's interesting that the only direct response i saw to Fuch's question (whether or not a runner team could take out a megacorp, if they were willing to die for it) was toturi's usual blind obeisance to his interpretation of canon. everyone else avoided the question.
I have Yakuza (and Mafia and Vory and even an Ancients) company men teams that are as good or better than my group's PCs. But I'm not handicapping the GM or being handicapped as one by insisting that if there are no stats it doesn't exist.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| [QUOTE=toturi]...GM fiat is so wildly different that only canon i'm thinking in terms of total effectiveness--in which willingess to die is a factor. toturi and knasser, as best i can tell, think that willingess to die multiplies your effectiveness by infinity. i believe that willingness to die, in combination with other attributes and assets, can multiply your effectiveness by a lot--the total of which is still less than what an OC syndicate can bring to bear. |
The British troops on the first day of the Somme were also willing to die to accomplish their mission. And die they did. Accomplishing their mission, not so much. Being willing to die does not give you the ability to not be turned into beef flambe when someone who is willing to kill you hits your car with an ATGM.
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