more/bigger/better weapons tend to have that kind of effect yes *g*

You weren't expecting this reaction after basically railroading him into this very situation? What did you expect him (them) tho do?

The Seoulpa rings will activly help them. Their main goals are "kill yak, kill yak, make profit, kill yak"... and then your group does pick the great fight.

Keep in mind that Seoulpa rings have quite a bit of money, but low manpower.

It's all well and good for the Mafia to applaud the disaster, but for the honest illegal munitions dealer trying to make a crooked living, the very real threat that the Yaks are going to kill his kids first if he sells anything, plus the >$100K reward, tends to make it clear what the "right thing" to do is. If the capo wants to sell it to the PCs that's one thing, but that provides a target that the Yaks can go after. They know where the Mafia has it's businesses and where the leadership lives. So the don isn't going there. It's not good for business. Not that they might not help, but not blatantly.

Unless the yaks want to go to war with the mafia on top of this mess, the yaks won't do a thing to the mafia businesses. So the don is doing business. Besides, the yaks are busy under attack.

If the yak affliated won't sell to the runners, simple. Attack them instead and take the guns. The runners are at war with the yaks anyway. Show the yak affliated what it means not to sell to the runners. The yaks can't protect them anyway, the yaks themselves are under attack.

edit: double post.

why would the availability of new toys on the street change anything? it's not like the runners are going to be able to get their hands on anything the Yaks couldn't, especially given the fact that these particular yaks have enough pull to bum a cyberzombie off MCT.

regarding strategies, the PCs' contacts may be dead or in hiding, but there was more to what i suggested than just that. i mean, who cares if they're hiding in the Ork Underground? the Ork Underground depends on the black market to survive, and these Yaks--if they have as much money and power as the OP has suggested--can certainly apply some serious pressure from that quarter. all the Yaks need to do for information is squeeze a few of the ork junkies who buy Yak chips and drugs.

the point i'm trying to get across here is that an organized crime syndicate is not composed of mooks to be mowed down. it is comprised primarily of money and influence, and that's the crap that you need to watch out for if you go up against one. the mooks with guns are just icing on the cake--by the time they get to you, your life is already in ruins.

that still leaves much softer targets. not everyone the PCs know or deal with on an everyday basis are going to be badasses. as i said, hit the places they sleep, hit the places they eat, hit people they know in passing. make it so that people--all kinds of people, not just their badass contacts--are afraid to be seen associating with the PCs.

hell, start going after the PCs' contacts' friends and family. how loyal is that razorgirl going to be to the PCs after the Yaks kidnap her son and FedEx her one of his ears? i'm telling you, the fact that these Yaks can borrow a cyberzombie is not why people should be afraid of them. the scary part about OC is how many people they know--and how many friends of yours they can find and hurt.

But you realise that if the yaks are busy hitting the runners' contacts' contacts, they won't be defending their turf. Which leaves the runners to menace their yakuza contacts because the yakuza can't protect them and along the way since the runners are gunning for the yaks anyway, they'd be able to interfere with the yakuza going out to hit their friends.

How loyal are the lower level yakuza going to feel if their families get slaughtered because the yakuza are out on business?

Since the PC do intend to go Max Fucking Payne on the yakuza, I reading one of Wounded Ronin's treads on the subject.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20059

The thing is that, if the PCs are going Max Payne on the yaks, then the best option that the yaks have is to make a truce as quickly as is possible. Organized crime exists to make a profit. A full scale war with crazy revenge-driven vigalantes who have nothing left to lose is not profitable. If they prosecute a war against the PCs their loses will be far greater than any possible returns (which are limited to dead PCs).

4-5 runners hitting yakuza for their phat loot(arms, explosives, vehicles, etc) and then using that phat loot to get more phat loot and since the runners do not care how the phat loot is used, all the resources gained is plowed back into the anti-yak enterprise. Once the runners hit the yaks and made an example of a few 2-bit gangs, those 2 bit gangs will stay the hell out of the way of the runners. This is guerrilla warfare. Reload and refuel from the yakuzas. Grab the resources from the yaks, rip information out of the yaks to replace the resources and contacts that you lost. Hurt the information on other yakuza familes out of those families you are at and then use that info. If the runners can hit the yaks hard enough, and the runners aren't gunning for the gangers and are using the money they looted from the yak operations to fund their own bounties, those 2-bit gangs might actually hit those yakuza areas that are licking their wounds and other OC syndicates might just co-op these gangs to protect their turf from the yaks.

that'll work for about five minutes, before the Yaks get wise and set up a trap. it might last a bit longer if you use the utterly ridiculous ammo rules, because at least then the runners will be able to pick up any old clip from any old weapon and use it in their own. they won't have to worry about carrying around ten guns that each have three rounds left.

The Yaks can't make a truce. They have been dishonored. It's a fight to the death.

The major Yaks are going to disappear ("go the the mattresses", as they said in The Godfather), as they know the PCs are dangerous. And they are not stupid. So when the PCs show up to take down the oyabun's house he's not there. It may well look like he is, but he won't be. An MCT combat team might well be there, well dug in with extensive surveillance and huge firepower on call, but he won't be.

No, guns? Simple, we cut you up piece by piece until you do. They are not here? Then Mr Yakuza-san(a yak and not just an affliate), tell us what we want to know. No? Your loyalty to the clan is impressive. But John has already gotten what we need. We shall leave you alive. They'd think you betray them.

The yaks keeping tabs? Waste of time, we are hitting the yaks. To make them finance our campaign of terror against themselves.

You are right, the PCs are radioactive, now the yaks are suffering from that radiation sickness. The more they play with the runners the sicker they'd get.

It's not impossible to find Yakuza storehouses. They're rich, but they aren't corps. They don't keep their guns on some extra-territorial artificial island. It'll be some random warehouse on the pier or something. Grab a Yak, mindprobe/torture him, follow the signs. Or just take the guns from the cannon fodder they send after you.

Facing off against a city worth of Yakuza is extremely difficult, but not impossible. Well-optimized Shadowrunners are ridiculous when it comes to this kind of stuff. Overall, it sounds like this could be a very fun, "blaze of glory" campaign, but it also sounds like this isn't what the GM wants to happen.

If all you want is to demonstrate that honking off the Yaks isn't a good idea, well...anything you do accomplishes that. If their entire lives become consumed with fighting the Yakuza, dodging assassinations, and trying to save what's left of their friends, you've made the point. Realistically, nobody can, or would want to, live like that.

If you want to ram home that challenging the Yakuza is instant death, then don't bother playing through the scenario. Either you'll railroad them into death and annoy them, or they'll find some way to shoot their way out, forcing you to up the ante until they die in an impossible situation. Just tell them the campaign reached an end-point, give them an epilogue, and move on.

Whatever...

All I can say is, I'd have a blast playing in the game worlds of some of you guys, where 4-5 'runners can take on the Yaks and walk all over 'em. If that's your vision of the game setting, more power to ya, buddy. I guess in your campaign, I'd be the super-paranoid guy taking everything way too seriously.

A tiny group of people with nothing to lose and a deathwish can be unbelievably dangerous and destructive.

I dislike the idea that the Yaks are in any way infallible. They should likely win in this case, since the PCs essentially have no real resources to fall back on in terms of contacts, but I think the insta-gib approach people seem to be advocating is just as silly, especially since the Yakuza were already hunting the players to begin with; the players simply added more fuel to the fire.

How are all the Yakuza families going to leave? The runners' general motives may be easy to deduce but the specific targets are not. The runners control the timing of the release of the video, they can time the release with a big hit, perhaps starting with the oyabun.

Whatever leverage the yakuza have over the runners now seems minimal, otherwise the runners would not think that they have nothing to lose. If the yaks did not have the intention of making desperate men out of the runners, then they have severely miscalculated.

It doesn't matter that the yaks would not sell out. All the runners need to do is present the image of it being so, once it happens, the lower level gangs will start thinking that this is all a internal affair, a power grab by one of the oyabun's inner circle, doubt creeps in.

The yaks have to cut off logistical support for the runners. But the problem is that they cannot ensure total logistical isolation, I doubt even Ghostwalker can manage it in Denver. If they could, they would have just squashed the runners in the first place. The runners do not need to hide, all they need to do is stay hidden long enough to reload and rearm from pillaging their last strike, maybe rest up and then hit another target. By hitting the yak leaders/businesses, the yaks will shift manpower to guard these. Constantly shifting targets and targeting priorities the runners keep the yakuza on the defensive. By the time the yaks counterattack by cracking down on the runners' contacts and by offering bounties, it would be too late. By the time the locals get wise to the runners and start evacuating their families, the runners are going after other targets like rthe rest of the leadership. All this should be settled in 72 hours tops. Either the yakuza top leadership would have been gutted, the local yakuza infrastructure in shambles or the runners are dead, the runners may just end up dead but the point is that the runners already have nowhere to go anyway. The cyberzombie has to get here before it even can make a difference.

For inspiration on this topic, I'd watch the old but rather good film Payback with Mel Gibson. One man, getting increasingly pissed off with the syndicate ("Nobody calls them the Syndicate anymore..."). In fact, it's an excellent Shadowrun movie all round with Lucy Liu playing the roll of a PC, based on her actions and lifestyle.

@MFB: Yes, four of five guys could take down a crime syndicate if by guys you mean "highly trained infiltrator-killers" and by crime syndicate you mean "local crime syndicate" as I actually wrote. The big issues are knowing who to target and the threat of reprisals. The difficulty of killing someone is a distant third. Given their backgrounds, the players seem to have a headstart on the first and given that they're player characters who don't actually need to care about loved ones or their future, they have dealt with the second. Which brings it down to the question of can a small team of trained and well-equipped assassins kill some people with moderately good security? And the answer is 'yes.'

Speed of action will be critical for the PCs. If they tarry too long, their opposition will go to ground and become much harder to find whilst in the meantime, with money and word on the street, sooner or later someone will find out where they are and tip off their enemies.

Shadowrun: Conserve ammo, never deal with a dragon and choose your enemies carefully. All three of which can be circumvented with Rule 0: Shoot First.

I agree with mfb's earlier suggestion about the Yaks "burning" the runners, coming after their contacts, their families, and their friends. I also agree that depending on the campaign's power level, it is possible for determined runners to destroy a local syndicate. But this is where my evil GM nature comes in. If the players destroyed the local yakuza, I'd get immense enjoyment out of making the crime syndicate that fills the vacuum a much worse group of people. Now when the local residents are terrorized by this new crime syndicate, they have the runners to thank.

This whole debate has been incredibly entertaining and I have to say thank you to all of you for your advice and pointers. I'll be sure to keep you all updated on the situation as it progresses, and I'll start leaning on my players to get their campaign diaries updated.

let them finish off that particular family of the yakuza . . then let another family take over the rest and have them make ammends to the runners because they took out their vile concurrents whom they hate because of the honor of their fathers . . and make it clear that they will leave the runners alone if the runners PROMISE to do the same . .

TO all the Naysayers:

Try this link
One man, 3 Convicted kills, 10 strongly confirmed Kills and 18 other probable Kills.
This person caused a serious power vacuum in the Melbourne crime scene.

This man had no cyberware, no magic, no other rare and improbable abilities
Remember, your typical SR PC has significantly more combat prowess than most mob torpedos.

A group of Shadowrunners at the mid to top of their game could easily wreak 20-50 times as much damage

so the punisher is based on a real story? O.o

I wish

this guy was not as cool as frank Castle

or as the old joke jingle went
"C'mon down to Australia, you just might get yaself killed."

I guess the flaw I keep seeing with the "zomg Shadowrunners can take the Mafia on and win!" arguments is that in the games I've run, the games I've played in, and the games I'm familiar with, the crime syndicates have 'runner-class characters, too (and more of them, with more guns, who all have more skill points than you). Yes, you can take some of 'em. Heck, I can't think of how many games have started (or ended) that way. And yes, the 'average' syndicate thug isn't much of a match for a Shadowrunner-class of professional killer.

But that's just the mooks. They schleps they send out to do the shit jobs. The sweaty fat guys that "guard" the girls at the bunraku parlor, the greasy-haired bravos that only have to out-muscle everyday shopkeepers (so their muscle augmentation two and their mob ties are enough to get the job done, ninety percent of the time). Those guys? Sure, no problem. Though for the most part, even with a group of say a half dozen of those low-rent schmucks, I still commonly toss in at least one or two guys with starting archetype level stats, skills, and gear.

But even so, those guys aren't all the syndicates have, by a long shot. They wouldn't be as powerful as they are in the fluff, if that were the case. Just like many other of the villainous/violent groups in the setting-as-canon don't add up if you just go by the default NPC stats (there's no way street gangs would run the Sprawl after dark every night if they were as weak and shitty as they're often made out to be, for instance).

In order for the established power structure to not fall apart, it requires either a whole bunch of suspension of disbelief, a serious up-gunning of the Powers That Be (corporate security is tougher than just the low-end stats we see, as are gangs, as are syndicates, etc, etc), or ideally a good pinch of both.

So, yeah. Like I said. I'd love to play in some of the games where Shadowrunners can run rough-shod over organized crime syndicates. In the games I'm used to, you ambush a few, get lucky, and then lay low for six months (and pop out of hiding later with a new face and the Enemy Flaw anyways) somewhere in another syndicate's turf.

I'm sure it'd be a big confidence boost, or whatever, to roll in a game where Shadowrunners aren't that careful/paranoid/outgunned/whatever all the time. So if it works for your games, party on Garth. It's just not what I'm used to.

Ichi the Killer has a good example of a small but powerful gang being taken down by a single skilled killer and his handler. In that movie, the gang is go intent on retrieving their leader (they don't know if he's dead or not because he body is removed) and the stolen money that they overreact, prompting the other yakuza gangs to sever ties with them, kicking them out of the larger organization.

A single brainwashed adept with razor blades on his shoes can take out an entire yakuza gang; he just needs to isolate the gang from the rest of the organization.

It is all too easy, as GM's, to be seduced by realism. Sometimes, we are even tempted into bleak hopelessness which pretends to be realism. We fall for the lures of balance, consistency and consequence. In short, there is a risk, and we have all been there, that we make our games reflect real life.

If this happens, it is always good to be reminded that the reason players choose to play in our worlds over their own real lives, is because, within our games, players sometimes get to blow things the fuck up.

And we should all remember that.

i allways cringe when my GM's start to argue because of realism in a game with cybernetically enhanced magical dragons surfing the matrix . .

yeah, we've got some of those nutcases too <.< . .
"you can't possibly have made that shot!"
"i rolled 2, count 'em in words TWO 20's . . hell yes i fucking made that shot!"