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Cardul
OK, I just got the PDF for Arsenal today, and was going through it, and, I admit, there is alot of absolutely cool stuff in there. However, there are also somethings that I just looked at, looked at for a long moment, and went "WTF?!"

The one that sticks out in my head:

The FLYING gun that shoots people combo! Page 152: Piloting Upgrade+ Flight Propulsion. I am sorry, but who cares that its 20K to make the thing fly, and 3 K to make a weapon have a basic Pilot rating of 3...it is a FLYING GUN! WTF?!

The "I can't believe they put that in there!" thing is:

Pimped Ride, p 141. Seriously! Who would WANT people to recognize their vehicle?(though the idea, suddenly, of the old movie, Zorro, the Gay Blade does come to mind...)

And a "I can't believe they never had this before:"

Interior Cameras, p 138. Admittedly, I always assumed that sensor included these, and that was part of the Rigger Adaptation in the old rules(After all..why else would RA have taken up so much space in vehicles that have autopilots, anyway?)
knasser
QUOTE (Cardul)
Pimped Ride, p 141. Seriously! Who would WANT people to recognize their vehicle?(though the idea, suddenly, of the old movie, Zorro, the Gay Blade does come to mind...)


I think some guidelines on how to make your car flash, will be useful to some GM's, though it's all rather generic. The thing I find dubious is that they called it "pimped out ride." Is MTV still going? Using modern slang is a good way to make your product become dated fast.

Related to that, I have stronger feelings on the fluff about transport and petrol. Shadowrun always gets adjusted to reflect with modern day concerns. In this case it's taken too far to the detriment of the setting. I don't see why, in an age where the world population has been reduced through war and disease, where increasing numbers of people actually live within the corporation they work for and where those that do not are increasingly destitute of jobs, let alone transport, where an automated traffic guiding system can re-route traffic, prevent slow-downs and accidents, where full virtual reality enables people to hold meetings, attend conferences, put in a days work without ever leaving home, in a world where all of this is the case, why it should be that traffic is worse than ever.

The second issue is the rising price of petrol which is driven home by the fluff. There are many reasons why this seems implausible to me as a serious issue in the Shadowrun setting. Not the least of which the availability of fusion power in cannon and the common examples of absolutely incredible power-storage in cannon (all those flying drones and cyberlimbs spring to mind). 50% solar efficiency, massively depopulated areas that can be used for biofuels, increased urbanisation. And quite probably the expiration of petrol as a primary power-source by 2070 anyway.

Shadowrun was partly formed from the Cyberpunk genre which played on people's fears of technology. But my generation isn't scared of technology - we think it's cool and we're used to it and most importantly we see it opening the doors to wonderful new opportunities and ways of living. The over-car'ed, petrol-gobbling future they're trying to outline in Arsenal just doesn't really fit our expectations of what cannon 2070's technology means.
Rotbart van Dainig
The once german-only abomination called Hi-C rounds - and their implications.
Given the technlevel of SR, there was no reason to even assume that conventional ammunition still is made from real and expensive metal.

Oh, and the Break Waepon Maneuver - see Mythbusters.
Fortune
QUOTE (knasser)
... in an age where the world population has been reduced through war and disease ...

I have heard this a couple of times lately, and am kind of surprised by it.

As far as I know, throughout Shadowrun's history, there has been no actual mention of the overall Sixth World population. There has been hints that the population is similar to today, even with VITAS and wars, because of natural population growth keeping it (or in some cases, bringing it back) level.

Do you have figures that would dispute this?
knasser
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 2 2008, 09:50 PM)
... in an age where the world population has been reduced through war and disease ...

I have heard this a couple of times lately, and am kind of surprised by it.

As far as I know, throughout Shadowrun's history, there has been no actual mention of the overall Sixth World population. There has been hints that the population is similar to today, even with VITAS and wars, because of natural population growth keeping it (or in some cases, bringing it back) level.

Do you have figures that would dispute this?


Not that I can put my finger on. I'm pretty sure I picked up reduction in world population from something cannon, but I can't substantiate it at the moment if you want evidence. I think a lot of GM's have this in the back of their minds though so applying this point will vary on an individual basis. The numerous other points remain either way, however.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Fortune)
As far as I know, throughout Shadowrun's history, there has been no actual mention of the overall Sixth World population. There has been hints that the population is similar to today, even with VITAS and wars, because of natural population growth keeping it (or in some cases, bringing it back) level.

Well having a quick look through Shadows of Europe since it's the closest book and the four or five countries I picked at random the population figures from the At A Glance information boxes petty much match current population figures five or take a couple million people either way. But of course that's just Europe, the books mention that less developed areas got hit much worse. Although that would probably be balanced out by faster population growth afterwards so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

At least for Shadows of Europe I know that in the early stages of planning, I can't speak for any decisions after the very early stages though, Peter et al. pretty much decided with VITAS knocking off 35% of the worlds population plus all the other fun stuff that happened population sizes for Europe would be similar to today's after population growth in the following years to 2060.
Fortinbras
And what's up with Carrolmeleg sucking beyond the telling of it? It's supposed to be this super secret, ancient martial art that only the most bad ass of Tir Ghosts know and it is quiet possibly the worst martial art in the book. Plus it is completely counter intuitive to the third edition description of the art.

I can see the flying gun, though. It's no different than a drone.
ixombie
QUOTE (knasser)
Shadowrun was partly formed from the Cyberpunk genre which played on people's fears of technology. But my generation isn't scared of technology - we think it's cool and we're used to it and most importantly we see it opening the doors to wonderful new opportunities and ways of living. The over-car'ed, petrol-gobbling future they're trying to outline in Arsenal just doesn't really fit our expectations of what cannon 2070's technology means.

That's why it's a game and not a prediction. That's why magic and trolls and orks and elves and dwarfs and dragons and unnameable horrors appear in like... 15 years from now? Shadowrun is creating a fictional universe more than it is trying to accurately depict technology in 60+ years from now.

And Shadowrun is a dystopian game. If we eliminate dependence on fossil fuels, solve our gridlock, and make sure everyone can afford cheap, clean, unlimited energy... well that's just not very dystopian, is it? They shouldn't have to build the game around our "fears." I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to posit an alternate reality that doesn't neccessarily have much to do with modern day. It's true that it's less plausible if the technology 60 years from now is supposed to be worse than the technology today. But SR's storyline didn't start today, it started in an alternate past timeline where all the sunny happy envirotech that we're working on right now never came into being, probably because greedy corporations were successful at suppressing everyone's concerns about pollution.
Jaid
i assume traffic would be as bad or worse because all of a sudden governments can no longer tax huge portions of the people who use their infrastructure. and if they cut back on areas like military too far, then they completely lose any pretence of autonomy from the megas. so where do they cut back? i would think roads would be one of those places.
Prime Mover
QUOTE (Cardul @ Feb 2 2008, 04:54 AM) *
OK, I just got the PDF for Arsenal today, and was going through it, and, I admit, there is alot of absolutely cool stuff in there. However, there are also somethings that I just looked at, looked at for a long moment, and went "WTF?!"

The one that sticks out in my head:

The FLYING gun that shoots people combo! Page 152: Piloting Upgrade+ Flight Propulsion. I am sorry, but who cares that its 20K to make the thing fly, and 3 K to make a weapon have a basic Pilot rating of 3...it is a FLYING GUN! WTF?!

The "I can't believe they put that in there!" thing is:

Pimped Ride, p 141. Seriously! Who would WANT people to recognize their vehicle?(though the idea, suddenly, of the old movie, Zorro, the Gay Blade does come to mind...)

And a "I can't believe they never had this before:"

Interior Cameras, p 138. Admittedly, I always assumed that sensor included these, and that was part of the Rigger Adaptation in the old rules(After all..why else would RA have taken up so much space in vehicles that have autopilots, anyway?)


I know at least one of my players who will pimp his ride without question. Run games that incorporated downtime and a life beyond the shadows, including some souped up rides to impress the ladies. Flying Gun? Is'nt that a drone?
Whipstitch
The flying gun is flaming pile of crap. You know what I'll do when my character drops his gun and needs to keep returning fire? He'll pull out another gun. And if it's flying around shooting people? I'll order my real combat to drone kill it. With the 20k I saved I should be able to own at least three of them. Or maybe just a couple LEBD-1s with Chameleon coatings...
imperialus
We ended up with a pimped ride during our HK campaign. Neon zodiac symbols flashing in nanite paint, spinning rims, a hot tub, the whole 9 yards. Never used it as a primary running vehicle (we had an armoured Mercedes for that) but it did have it's uses. It belonged to our somewhat eccentric Ork sam who used it as a personal toy. He called it the Celestial Harmony Wagon. We'd sometimes take it to meets where appearances mattered.
Fortune
I've seen, and even used that type of thing quite a bit in Shadowrun (and not necessarily just for vehicles). Not everything has to be about actual on-the-job gear. There is life in the Sixth World outside of the shadowrun.
Konsaki
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 2 2008, 06:06 PM) *
I've seen, and even used that type of thing quite a bit in Shadowrun (and not necessarily just for vehicles). Not everything has to be about actual on-the-job gear. There is life in the Sixth World outside of the shadowrun.

LIES! wink.gif
Grinder
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 3 2008, 12:06 AM) *
There is life in the Sixth World outside of the shadowrun.


Like there is life outside of dumpshock.com for you? wink.gif
BishopMcQ
Hi-C rounds were in Cannon Companion, so there was no shock there for me when they came back in Arsenal.

As far as Carromoleg, can you give a specific reason to your distaste? Yes it is different from the SR3 version which had it lumped together with Capoeira, but what else is the problem?
Fortune
QUOTE (Grinder)
Like there is life outside of dumpshock.com for you?


I'm dedicated! biggrin.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Feb 2 2008, 08:54 PM) *
Hi-C rounds were in Cannon Companion, so there was no shock there for me when they came back in Arsenal.

As far as Carromoleg, can you give a specific reason to your distaste? Yes it is different from the SR3 version which had it lumped together with Capoeira, but what else is the problem?


I think the new fluff behind Carromoleg is awesome. Standing perfectly still and then nailing someone at the last possible moment is silly IRL, but in game it would come across as badass, which is good enough for me. The calm before the storm and all that crap. I think it's the bonuses people are having a problem with; a die bonus for interception and charging is incredibly situational, as is the +2 die bonus for Surprise tests when you're the aggressor. On the bright side, surprising the other guy so they can't make any sort of reaction to your attack is potentially fatal. That said, I'd take another bonus first, unless the GM's fine with me initiating that attack with say, my assault rifle. nyahnyah.gif
Ravor
Pimping your ride and peace makes perfect sense to the Pink Mohawk Crowd.
hyzmarca
My first thought when I saw the endoscope gun modification was of a dwarf street doc/combat medic/rigger/sniper using a Barrett with that particular modification to check a teammate for colon polyps.


Edit:I'm sorry, I totally missed the reference to depleted uranium bullets as a "hot" source of radiation the first time around. I got a good laugh out of it. As a radiological hazard, depleted uranium is about as dangerous as French toast.
Kyoto Kid
...I was hoping for so much with the martial arts rules and am very disappointed. Basing them on Qualities instead of Unarmed Combat skill makes no sense. Martial arts is a skill, not some special trait which is what Qualities are supposed to be.

Another thing, why weren't the Strength recoil comp rules included?

OK I'm a bit surly tonight because my Matrix Specialist Violet had to sit in the car all mission.
TonkaTuff
The strength recoil rules were included. Page 163. It even has its own bookmark in the pdf.
Kyoto Kid
...oh, OK haven't been through everything in detail yet.

Many thanks. grinbig.gif
Ancient History
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Feb 3 2008, 04:15 AM) *
...I was hoping for so much with the martial arts rules and am very disappointed. Basing them on Qualities instead of Unarmed Combat skill makes no sense. Martial arts is a skill, not some special trait which is what Qualities are supposed to be.

Well, the problem is that martial arts covers many skills. You can't have just kung fu for Unarmed Combat, because many styles use blades and knives and other weapons too. That was one of the major failings of the last martial arts rules.
MaxHunter
well... I liked them. Not game breaking, reasonably costy, easy to plug in and plug out if liked / disliked, add options to melee combat, not too flawed, better than prev eds.

Content gamer

Cheers!
Jhaiisiin
I know one thing that bugged me a little was the man portable rail gun they introduced in Arsenal. The one thing that is ultra nice about rail guns is 2 things: No gunpowder needed to fire the round, leading to less chance of explosions and such in the weapon, and second: No Recoil. Electromagnetic acceleration is awesome because the item is pushed by magnets, and there's no blowback. But the book lists a damned high amount of recoil.

I know this was done for balance reasons, but it still bugged me.
hobgoblin
railguns do have recoil. i recall a old thread about the subject here on the forum, but i think it was pre-SR4...
Ryu
As the projectile is accelerated forward, you are accelerated backwards. Electromagnetic acceleration is awesome because there is no friction.
Mattily
Well I haven't had time to sit down and read through it yet (apart from the chemistry...which I could justify as I was doing a chem assignment!!!) but I'm not sure I like the cover...the drugs on the other hand seem yummy!!!!
Ancient History
Don't try the red mesc at home, shadowkids.
Cheops
Emotitoys are - availability (4 if they move) and cost rating x 100 nuyen (+2000 if they move) and function as Emotion sensor software at a rating = to emotitoy rating.

Sensor software has an availability of 2x Rating and costs 200x rating from 1-3 and goes up from there.
hobgoblin
hey, they are toys...

would you bring your emo monkey to some fancy place to meet the johnson?
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 2 2008, 06:06 PM) *
There is life in the Sixth World outside of the shadowrun.


Now if only we could get lives outside of Shadowrun in the Fifth World...
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 3 2008, 11:16 AM) *
hey, they are toys...

would you bring your emo monkey to some fancy place to meet the johnson?

Nope, but I would dismantle the emo-monkey, take the components out and put them into a slimmer, more easily disguised form factor. smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue @ Feb 3 2008, 01:29 PM) *
Now if only we could get lives outside of Shadowrun in the Fifth World...


Lost cause, chummer!
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Feb 3 2008, 07:46 PM) *
Nope, but I would dismantle the emo-monkey, take the components out and put them into a slimmer, more easily disguised form factor. smile.gif


and thats your option, if the gm so allows. i would rather go for the more expensive route of cybereyes, headware comlink and software...
Jhaiisiin
But I'm an adept! wink.gif Different flavors for same results.
Sombranox
Ginsu Adept w/
-Combat Sense 4+ (Add to reaction for defense) power
-Counterstrike 1 (add net hits from defense + 1 to next hit) power
-Off-hand Training (blades) (ambidexterity for one type) maneuver
-Two Weapon Style (can full parry with one blade WHILE attacking with other blade, no splitting pool seemingly) maneuver
-Riposte (can make an interrupt attack after a successful parry)

Attack every pass without losing full parry bonus and if they attack, they immediately get smacked down by a Combat Sense and Counterstrike-enhanced Riposte.

Pray you shoot them between the eyes before they get into melee range.

If I'm mistaken in my assessment of this scary WTF scenario, please correct me. I'm still learning the SR4 system, so it's quite possible I'm not up to the level of twink-fu as some of the others around.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Feb 3 2008, 08:15 PM) *
But I'm an adept! wink.gif Different flavors for same results.


hmm, is that a reference to a adept power that gives the same style effect?

oh crap, a adept with maxed out kinetics and either one of these toys or AR glasses with video sensor connected to a comlink running the software...

i think the pornomancer just got himself some new shades!
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Sombranox @ Feb 3 2008, 08:15 PM) *
Attack every pass without losing full parry bonus and if they attack, they immediately get smacked down by a Combat Sense and Counterstrike-enhanced Riposte.

That's not as good as basing it on The Arnis De Mano Advantage of causing Damage when disarming and using the Two Weapon Style to get Disarm for free.

Of course that can be extended with Riposte, and Finishing Move, too...
Ryu
Shoot them between the eyes before they get to melee range.
Cheops
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 3 2008, 08:07 PM) *
and thats your option, if the gm so allows. i would rather go for the more expensive route of cybereyes, headware comlink and software...


If the GM allows it? By RAW he should. Emotion is a Sensor software program and should thus follow any of the rules for Software. Unload from emotitoy and add to something else.

Of course he could house rule...but I'd still carry my emtitoy around with me if he deemed that.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Cheops @ Feb 3 2008, 09:21 PM) *
If the GM allows it? By RAW he should. Emotion is a Sensor software program and should thus follow any of the rules for Software. Unload from emotitoy and add to something else.

Of course he could house rule...but I'd still carry my emtitoy around with me if he deemed that.


yes its software, but does the book say that the toys are basically comlinks running said software?

its more like they have a dedicated set of chips and sensors that perform the same function as the sensor software.

function is the same, package, not so...
Ravennus
Just bought the Arsenal PDF + Book... can't wait for the hardcover in the mail next month, but the PDF is tasty....

Anyway, one WTF! thing I noticed..... and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd love to be...

But where the hell is diakote? If anything, I would have expected it in this supplement.
However, I've been way out of the loop concerning SR4 and roleplaying in general for over a year (a trip around the world will do that), so it could be in another book....

On a side note... glad to finally get the finished rules for Cyborgs and a couple example drones... but, er, maybe this has been discussed.... but as much as I love the flavour, what the hell is the advantage of being a jughead? You spend way way way more money to to be a gimped rigger brain stuck in a jar with no mobility requiring high maintenance who will likely develop extreme psychological issues.
A plain rigger is better at rigging, a hacker is better at hacking, and a well built street sammy is better at combat.
And on top of that they can all stop by for a beer at a local dive on their time off, and can still enjoy the more... carnal... pleasures. Oh, and their brain isn't the property of a megacorp.

So, er, tell me again why Catalyst warned us not to us cyborgs as PCs and that they were unbalanced??
The only possibility I could see is their higher resistance to magic slingers due to not having much, astrally, to 'lock on' to.
Either way, my dream of a workable GITS-type group is still a long way off.

Thoughts?
hobgoblin
sorry, but right now the cyborgs are highly experimental...

maybe give it a 5-10 years to mature and it will be gits level wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Oh, another 'funny' thing are all those Weapons that 'cannot be further modiefied'.

And since now adding Skinlink or replacing the Smartgun Camera is a Mod (that suddenly even costs capacity), those guns are off limits to even those simple things you can even get as RFID tags.

Yay for tech level consistency.
Ravennus
Oh! One more WTF thing....

So I LOVE the new Guess Rifle... the pic is cool, the flavour great..... but like a lot of other things, the actual game mechanics fall very short...

Example: Damage wise, it does 9P with -4 AP and can fire in SA mode. Peachy, fits with the general idea of a slightly weaker assault rifle that can fire faster..... however, it's availability (24f) and cost 13k, not to mention the ammo, make this highly prohibitive, especially for new characters. Which makes sense, right?

But what about this?

Take the new Ares Desert Strike Sniper Rifle.
8P and -3 AP. Not bad. SA mode as well, and takes clips not magazines.
But even better.... only 10F availibility and 3,350 nuyen. Oh, and it comes with the long barrel mod which increases it's range to even further than the Gauss Rifle (Sniper Rifle and AC normally share the same ranges). And totally available to any starting character.

Now here's the kicker... the Guess Rifle can only use special Gauss Ammo, whereas the sniper rifle can use the full gamut of exotic ammunitions.
Therefore, add some EX rounds to the Desert Strike Sniper Rifle.....

And you get a 10P, -5 AP Sniper Rifle (damage equal to a Assault Cannon) with greater range than either the off-the-shelf Gauss Rifle or Assault Cannon. Oh, and you can fire it off in semi-auto, the ammo is much cheaper and easier to come by, it doesn't take a power pack, and it's a much smaller and easier to handle package that's available at chargen.

If that's not WTF material, I don't know what is! eek.gif
Ravennus
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 3 2008, 04:16 PM) *
sorry, but right now the cyborgs are highly experimental...

maybe give it a 5-10 years to mature and it will be gits level wink.gif


Haha, yeah I know, lol. I was being sarcastic. grinbig.gif

But seriously, except as a weird plot device, what is the point.... game mechanics wise.... of a cyborg?
It doesn't even make sense with the setting, as the megacorps should quickly figure out that there are much cheaper and easier alternatives to building and maintaining a jughead!
Despite what was written in Augmentation, a full cyberlimb replaced combat monkey would still be more effective and cheaper than a cyborg. And a normal flesh and blood rigger would be much more mobile and more able to multi-task multiple drones/vehicles at once and stay out of harms way.

All without the maintenance and psychological damage. *shrug*
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Feb 3 2008, 10:25 PM) *
If that's not WTF material, I don't know what is!

Actually, 'WTF material' would be the fact that you missed the Barrett. nyahnyah.gif
the_dunner
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Feb 3 2008, 04:10 PM) *
So, er, tell me again why Catalyst warned us not to us cyborgs as PCs and that they were unbalanced??


Take a Mitsuhama Tomino, and convert its vehicle stat line to a character stat line, per the rules on p.159-160 in Augmentation.

Strength: 10
Agility: (Vehicle Skill (Probably 6, possibly 8 with specialization)+ 2 (Handling) +2 (HotSim) +1 (Clonal Brain)) = 11 or 13
Reaction: Commlink Response = At least 4
Body: 10

Then consider it’s got 10 points of Vehicle armor on top of that, which don’t encumber it.

4 initiative passes.

Skillwires rank 5.

A movement rate of more than double a Troll’s.

It really doesn’t suck.
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