one of the chapter headings is misspelled. it's supposed to be 'chemestry' !!

Oh, I most certainly didn't!

However, I thought the availability of the Desert Strike at chargen outweighed the extra +1DV and -1AP from the Barret.
Though, if you can get it.... have fun!!! Woot!

some of the weapon illustrations are a bit odd. for instance, the T-250 has a pump, despite being described as an autoloader. i'm not a shotgun expert; maybe there are autoloading shotguns that also have a pump action?

the classical spas-12 is both semi-auto and has a pump. this because it allows for the use of ammo that do not have the powder charge (so to speak) to drive the loading reliably iirc.

also, you will always need a way to get that first round into the chamber, be it by manually pulling the slide (semi-auto handguns) or by pumping it in (shotguns using a tube mag).

I'd advise to see the Gauss rifle more as a style object than a rational upgrade. In most cases where you can use an assault cannon you'd be better off either with a machinegun or a sniper rifle. But just like the Panther before, the Thunderstruck has this air of awesome around it (at least for me).
Even ingame it seems more like a tech demo from Ares to me than an actual weapon made for a specific job. It's like "Hey, of course you know about mighty Gauss weapons that have been fitted to many destroyers in most naval fleets over the last few years? Yeah but only we at ARES can deliver those as a MAN-PORTABLE WEAPONS PLATFORM!"
They might exist but most likely they're a bitch to manufacture and the actual production yield is very lpw. At least half of the units that come out of the plant blow up in quality testing and overall the system is still prone to malfunctions. But ARES can still commercialize on being the first to deliver man-portable Gauss-Rifles.

And if you get your hands on an actual Thunderstruck, everyone in the shadows will know. Shadowrunner-wannabes will try to track down you hideout. you'd probably get a visit from the Star because some undercover cop overheard it and if you manage to survive you'd probably find plenty of potential customers who'd pay a ridiculous sum for that gun.

A fitting real-life analogy would probably be high-end gaming graphics cards. Chip manufacturers struggle to get a 20% yield off their wafers. They take up so much room, you have to saw a hole into your PC case, need your own nuclear plant to guarantee a stable power supply, then you switch your PC on, the cooling system howls like a 747 taking off and the GPU still overheats all the time. But for what? A 5% framerate increase over the mainstream model and the prestige for the manufacturer that they can say, it's 0.2FPS faster in Cry-me-a-river-this-game-is-hardware-hungry II.

Most semiautomatic shotguns have a charging handle on the side of the action, similar to the kind used on many types of assault rifle.

I think i'm likely going to houserule that the Thunderstruck halves armor before applying it's -4, just like the other railguns in the book. Style aside, it's really not that cool without it. If y'all over at Catalyst are thinking about it, I'd really, really like to see that be official/in a FAQ... watching a super-cool, expensive as hell railgun clock in at 9/-4 while the Barrett sitting next to it manages to pull off 9/-9 with APDS ammo *and* a suppressor is a little disappointing.

Actually, the Barrett features 9P -8/-10 using AV rounds, while a normal Assault Cannon caps at 10P -6/-8.

Given the fact that the Barrett comes with an integrated silencer, smartgun and bipod, all counting as modifications without taking up slots... it's the best rifle available.

I guess you didn't actually read this very thread, where we discuss that very subject for about 20 posts or so ...

The fact that the SR devs think silencing a gun that shoots a .50 bullet at 765-890 m/s, or more than double the speed of sound, is possible. Yeah, yeah - the weapon might be silenced, but how, pray, do you silence the sonic boom?

We just laughed in our group back in SR2, and ignored the silencer - subsonic bullets might work (like the .45 ACP for pistols), but that would mean a lot less power and range.

You don't suppress the sonic boom. The slug makes a pretty good whipcrack noise as it flies through the air. You do, however, suppress the several cubic feet of exploding gasses that emerge from the muzzle behind the slug, which is a hell of a lot louder than the slug in flight, and makes it a lot easier to pinpoint where the shot came from beyond "over that way."

Plenty of 9mm submachineguns are suppressed, despite firing supersonic ammunition. For that matter, there's a number of suppressors made for .223 weapons, which get close to 3000 fps.

The Russian 9x39mm round is subsonic, and makes up somewhat for it's lack of velocity by being disproportionately heavy for a rifle round. The trajectories achieved with the round drop off fairly quickly, and you have to lead pretty far for deflection shooting, but the round is still effective at a considerable distance.

subsonic rounds: p35, arsenal...

Does someone have a link to the picture of the German artillery piece with the big-ass sound suppressor?

That would almost be scary...cool, but scary..and at that point, Shadowrun will be closer to the original CyberPunk 2020 (Trust me..I picked up the current one and flipped through it, and said "Shadowrun is more realistic.")



Modified is referinng to Modifications, not accessories. Remember: you can tag on the correct accessories(which include internal smartlinks) and those do not suck up capacity. It is only the Modifications that thse guns cannot take. Though, why weren't there modifications for melee weapons? I know that there are some(such as counterweights, monofilament edging, etc) that could be done.





Well, remember that Shadowrun is also a game where look is important so that pump could be just a cosmetic thing. Also, when using a shotgun of that shape, one generally holds it at that spot..so it prevents the hand from getting burned. Oh! And lets not forget as pointed out by anther poster that, while it might be an autoloader, it does not necessarily mean that that first shell is loaded in immediately, and there is an intimidation factor RL to the audible sound of a 12 gauge having someone pump that first round into the chamber. And, of course, while unlikely in 2070, if the autoloading mechanism fails, there is a bit of redundancy. When your life depends on being able to get a shot off, wouldn'y you prefer some redundancy?

Actually, there are shotguns that are both semi-automatic and pump action for flexibility in round selection. Relative to other weapons standard shotgun shells tend to be loaded rather hot so any semi-automatic loading system needs to be sturdy enough to withstand the pressure. Unfortunately this means that low pressure shells (like less-lethal bean bag rounds, for example) don't always provide the oomph and hot gasses needed to let a semi-automatic shotgun cycle. Adding a pump mode means you can keep up a decent rate of fire when using the low pressure rounds while still making the gun sturdy enough to withstand using high pressure rounds in semi-automatic mode.

Form Fitting Armor



Am I reading that right? Seems to have huge imbalance potential.

Ahhhh, the old standby of every Shadowrunner, ever, is back. ^_^

Not imbalanced exactly, because everyone can (and will) have it. Does kind of reinforce how good lasers are though.

If everyone will (wants to) have something, then that's an almost sure sign it's imbalanced. FFBA falls among this.

I guess by that criteria, so do Fake SINs, Edge, Willpower, Perception, etc. ...

It's still a far cry from the "Field's of Fire" description of "the loudest sound was the click of the trigger".

Well I quickly made a starting character (basic 400 BP rules) with access to no higher than availability 12 armor/cyber/magic/etc. I was able to get 23/26 armor and that's with making a character that has skills, other abilities, etc. Even Lasers will have serious problems with that. If I were to reallocate some points, and be less varied, I could pump it up to around 27/30. Also I didn't even use any kind of shield. An orc or troll could actually have these ratings and not be encumbered. Plus think of the damage resistance tests, rolling 40 dice sounds cumbersome.

It seems like it's just too imbalancing to allow all these stacking armor types, like form-fitting armor and PPP.

I think I would just make Form-Fitting Armor non-stackable with an incredible concealability and not be added in to account for encumbrance.

PPP I would only allow it to stack to cover areas not covered by other armors. For example you're wearing an armor vest it would pretty much all stack but it doesn't help with a full body suit of armor.




That's like saying everyone wants arms, legs and air to breath. Not really a good analogy. I get what Fuchs is saying, when something is powerful and everyone will have it, then it becomes imbalancing. So a better analogy to Fuchs' post is if everyone could really become a millionaire, using those get rich infomercial schemes, then it would cause an imbalance in our Nation's (even World's) economy and things would rapidly fall apart.

Sure, everyone wants fake SINs, but it's not as if there is a series of "regular fake SINs" and then we suddenly get "special fake SINs" that are much better than what we have.

FFBA has no draw backs, unlike every other piece of armor. It adds to all armor worn, which makes it unbalanced.

By definition, internal smartlinks, skinlink, and upgrading the camera are now modifications.

Only when not ignoring the 'no layering' rules anyway.

I like Form-Fitting Body Armor. I´ve given my players a heads-up on it. And on the fact that heavy weapons are officially "in use", too.

Now what will common runner armor look like? I came up with this, needing a Body of 5 to wear:

FFBA II (4/1), Insulation 4, Comlink + SimModule Pouch
Urban Camo Suit (8/6), Thermal Dampening 3, Climbing Gear, Chem Protection 3

I want those 17+ dice if my opponent uses an automatic weapon. Someone who wants to play a brick needs more dice.

It does not matter if one layers armor or not, FFBA offers additional armor to every other armor. Such a sort of "straight boost" is imbalanced, and causes power creep.

I hoped SR4 would not fall into the old "hey, new sourcebook, new must haves" trap. broader options, not higher stats was what I hoped for.

its not imbalanced, nor overpowered. there is a limiting factor that stops someone from stacking up on every piece of armor they can. and aside from that...for example...
a team of unconcious runners are just as dead as a team of dead runners.

And if every other armor does so, too, the only advantage of FFBA becomes the fact that it has less encumberance.

Which is a pretty hefty advantage. I really wish the devs would stop adding "upgrades".

Ah well - in my game, FFBA won't stack.

Yes, the effect is that anyone will wear FFBA. Almost anyone will have a heavy pistol with that. So what? There are sensible choices to make in a realistic world.

"Sensible" depends on the rules for a game world. Dikoting your armor plates in your vest was sensible too, as was dikoting your melee weapons.

That doesn't mean it's good for the game. For a few reasons:

1. It means the stock characters are even more useless, since they lack basic gear that everyone with an int over 1 wouild wear.

2. Ditto for NPCs.

3. Bought Runs that do not use FFBA end up in need of more adjustments.

Basically, FFBA in the Arsenal form is nothing else but "hey, from now on, add X to all your armor ratings, and subratc Y from your credits" given an item form. They could as well just have said "hey, armor values are too low for what we think is balanced, so please raise armor values".

If armor values were ok before FFBA, then they are not ok anymore. If they weren't, why weren't they errated?

I really disagree with that assessment. Remember, armour cannot exceed Bodyx2, or you start getting encumbered. No-one wants that. Second is that it is alot easier now to hit that point of encumbrance. One of our players is starting off using only the FFBA because it is the only thing that really fits the characters look(worn under normal clothes). The others won't because they are already pushing what they can wear with armoured trenchcoats, since their concepts all shied away from 'rought and tough." Only the Tank Sam will likely be going with FFBA and another suit of armour, and even then, there is that cap of 10 armour he can wear. So, it is likely the long coat and the FFBA Vest, not even a half-body suit, let alone a Full Body suit! Maybe gel-packs will be added to his coat though.
"
By the defiition of "broken" that is "Everyone wants to have it", then the Long Coat must be broken, since every runner has them for that big, fat -2 concealability bonus to their weapons!

Upgrading the camera was not avialable in the corebok, IIRC. Anything available in the Core Bok as an accessory is STILL an accessory, though, since there is that whole "No book will ever countermand the core-book, it will just add new options" thing that I keep hearing about. I think the difference is: one is installing an accessory, meaning it can be easily removed, while the ther is going in and re-working the very inner workings f the gun. An internal smartlink Accessory is a smartlink, installed inside the gun, while a Smartlink modification is: a Smartlink, made into an integral part of the gun.

Mind posting the stats here?

I'd like to see the stacking benefits and the troll you can get with a starting natural body of 12...

Sure it was. Page 312, last sentence in the Smartgun paragraph (which starts on the previous page) says you can add vision enhancements to the camera. Then, in Arsenal, that's what the "Camera Upgrade" modification lets you do, assuming you have a kit, some nuyen, and modification space that you didn't need in the BBB.

I'm not all that sad about it though, I hope the splat books change, and clarify some things as new options become available.

People are getting into a snit over 4 armor. In SR3, this would be understandable, because 4 armor meant -4 TN to resist damage, making you almost immune to anything that wasn't greater than power 6. In SR4, however, it's 4 dice, which is an average of 1.33 extra hits on your damage resistance. FFBA can make the difference between taking 5 boxes and taking 4, not taking 5 boxes or taking 0. The only really dramatic effect armor has in SR4 is making physical damage do stun, but that's a lot more relevant in terms of healing up later than it is for actual survival.

note that the BBB talks about one being able to retrofit a internal smartlink to. in it there is no talk about slots, but if you check arsenal you find that it does take a slot (p151).

so i see the camera mod slot as only applying for a internal smartlink.

this is not the only place where arsenal seems to "contradict" BBB. the rigger black box and weapon mounts now take up slots on vehicles, where as the BBB didnt have anything about that.

this does not really surprise me as there was just no way they could come up with modification rules without this happening.

err, looks like i missunderstood the quited post, sorry about that

No, it's not. Every single thing I mentioned, high Willpower and Edge, Fake Ids, and even the Perception skill itself are optional. You can still have a functional character without any of those, and I have seen quite a few. Arms and legs of some variety are not nearly as optional in nature.

High willpower means that you probably have lower stats in another area. Same for edge. High püerception means less skill points in another area. A good fake ID costs a pretty penny, which means less money available elsewhere.

Compared to that, FFBA seems cheap and easy to get, without making characters take hits in other areas.

I just can't imagine caring. It's 4 armor in a game that already tremendously favors the attacker. And since most characters will want to avoid encumbrance penalties, it's typically only a 2 armor increase over what characters were previously wearing since they'll likely pair the FFBA with a lighter set of primary armor. It's not imbalancing because it doesn't really bring about much if any change in typical shadowrun tactics. It hurts the ability of those with light pistol class weapons and APDS ammo to reliably deal physical, but I'm not really convinced that's so terrible.

I really wish we could delete posts.

I have to agree. Besides, it can be a bitch to replace, which is a factor if you use armor degradation.

Back in the day, when I GMed SR2, I know I was more likely to have NPCs shoot at the armor-wrapped troll-tank... so I guess combat monsters who load up on armor might just be taking hits in other areas in-game - potentially vital areas

bypass armor rules, here we come

In our games the party is split nearly in half between stat gamers and fluff gamers. With our stat gamers they seek out the best gear and toys but also tend to be the least likely to take precautions. Those stat guys need all the armor they can get and as mentioned above in 4E a few pnts of armor only really means 1-2 extra sucess on damage check or bringing it down to stun. As said further up as well out cold is as bad as dead when your surrounded by the bad guys. Aiming for unarmored spots will be bit tougher though.

precisely. with the 20k you save, you can buy several crates full of surplus, throwaway SMGs, and a few pallets full of ammo. stash them everywhere.

Me too, but it's normally not mine that I'm wishing that for, it's just a general dream of mine. Along with being able to light people on fire over the interwebs.

Why would a character need that much body to accumulate 27/30 armor? Remember, implanted armor doesn't count against encumbrance and FFBA only counts half.

The way I see it you can start out with 20/20 from cyberware, add an armored jacket for 28/26 and 8/6 for the purposes of encumberance then add a helmet for 29/28 (9/8) and FFBA for 33/30 (11/9). They'd only need 6 points of body for that one.
With 6 body such a character would be able to buy 9 successes against most ballistic threats.