Short question. Does the internal commlink cyberware require the internal sim module cyberware to use VR, or does the commlink itself have one built in that is used (and can be modified to hot sim)?

There's some things in the books that imply it's one way or the other, so I'm just looking for other people's take on it.

The cost of an implanted Sim Module only makes sense if you cannot add one as an integral accessory to an implanted commlink. Sadly.

That's currently being debated in this thread (The thread's about magic, but the Sim Module is what they talk abou for half the thread, especially around pages 8-10).

I should refer to my mud battle in another thread, but I will give you some arguments, why you don't need a sim module implant.

Number 1: My favorite, actually.


Number 2: The Hacker sample character. While having a crenial commlink, that is hot simmed, he does not posses a sim module. Neither implant, nor external.

Number 3: The sim module is a seperate implant, not listed like an upgrade to the commlink. Also, the description says it's popular with simchippers and BTL junkies. They could have mentioned right on this spot, that is als necessary to oparete Full VR. They didn't.

Number 4: And this is more like shooting in my own foot to prove my point, but, heck, whatever. The sim module itself states, it can be hooked to an internal commlink. That would seem weird, but if you think of the internal comlink as a legal headware, meaning only cold sim and you are in need of some hot sim for illegal activities like hacking or BTL, it might be a good idea not to have your work equipment modified for such a thing if exposure would be harmful.
So, if you want to chip after a day of work, you hook your modified sim module to your brain instead of tampering with the stuff in your head you need to work. Assuming you were not a runner, that is.

As long as there is no errata to contradict my reasoning, I will follow this. If this will ever be changed, I will STFU, but houserule it back into what I think is the right thing to do.

Damn, so many typos... I love the edit function.

You saved me from making a topic on it.

The implanted commlink is clearly described in the gear section as being an internal version of a normal commlink (which does not include a sim module as standard). The sim module is listed separately in the Gear section, yet cannot be used alone, as it must be used with an accompanying commlink. Each is listed as having a separate Essence cost. In my opinion, the implanted commlink does not come with a sim module accessory already included as standard.

As to what I think it the rules should be, then I believe that accessories should not cost Essence, but they should cost money.

My edition of SR4 page 228 says nothing about cranial commlinks. Nor does the errata [edit](though I have second printing, thus newer printings may)[/edit].

To tag on a question:

What do you need for BTLs?

p.250 Second Column first paragraph:


Now since no sim hardware is required shouldn't this be usable in the chipslots in a commlink?

ala:

BTL (2nd edition) > Datajack > Brain
or
BTL (2nd edition) > Commlink slot > Datajack > Brain
or
BTL (2nd edition) > Commlink slot > Trode/ nanopaste trode > Brain


p.320/ 321 last and first paragraphs under Knowsoft and Linguasoft:


This clearly differentiates Knowsofts/ Linguasofts from BTLs.
But logic stats that if they can design a BTL that doesn't need a simrig but can operate with RAS or without, then both the afor mentioned chips should also operate this way.


Second part of my question:
Now that nearly everything has a DNI, what is required to control a Commlink? (aside from AR gloves or manual and so on)

Datajack> Commlink
and /or
Trode/ Nanopaste trode > Commlink

If my Cybereye has a DNI (which it does) can that be modified to control the commlink? sounds far fetched, again logic states that a DNI is not omnipresent in the brain, but rather specific to the 'ware being controlled. Which leads to the reason a DataJack DNI or Sim Module DNI is required for the more intensive (read) Overall type controls.

Which also means for example:

p.101 Street Samurai
Does not have a datajack or simrig but does have a smartlink in his eyes. So he can control each of his cyber pieces though each of their internal DNI, but cannot control his Commlink except for manually or AR gloves.
ie: If he wanted to transmit data to his runner friends or search teh matrix he would again have to do it manually.

Right?

(please correct any and all of the above as necessary)

I have LE, so first printing. Weird though, the errata does not mention anything about that. So, I guess I'm still at large, second printing is discarded as an anomaly. Lalala, you can't contradict me... dammit.

Maybe only LE commlinks come with sim modules. another nice treat for me, then

Judging by the section on BTL Downloads, it doesn't seem a direct-input beetle would be hindered by a commlink between the chip and brain.

There's nothing to suggest that manufacturers cannot create direct-input knowsofts and linguasofts (just look at personafix chips), however, they don't have much need, since sim modules and datajacks are relatively common.

DNI means the individual implanted device has controls which one can operate with their mind. Implanted commlinks, for example, can be completely controlled with thought; and input/output through a datajack can be controlled by thought, and so on. But DNI is specific mental controls for each device.

Datajack/Trode > Sim Module + Commlink
Sim Module > Datajack/Trode > Commlink

But my SR4 has the Street Samurai commlink including a Sim Module (though not hot modified as the Sprawl Ganger's commlink is).

(And damnit, cranial commlinks should have sim modules, and smartlinks shouldn't require an imagelink if you have a sim module, because the street sam doesn't have an imagelink anyway!)

Second paragraph under Virtual Realities heading in my pdf version of the BBB.

I knew I'd read somewhere that it said pretty much explicitly that the cranial had a sim module in it, so that kind of answers it for me I think. Thanks for giving the page Mal.

If that text really isn't anywhere in some printings of the BBB, then someone should probably try to bring it to the devs attention so they can put something in the FAQ or next errata or something like that.

Back to the question, with it explicitly saying cranials have in-built sim module, I'd probably just say that the standalone sim module are there only for people looking to use them to jack BTLs into and/or possibly someone wanting a more discrete hot module to use with an external commlink. (See officer, just a normal commlink. Nothing illegal here.)

Yeah, smart requiring image link can seem a bit weird, but heck, it has been clearly said it is needed, so at least not much confusion here.

YES! I have a beliver! Now we are unstoppable. If we cared.

Now, what do you pay to hot modify that "cranial" commlink's sim module? (I'd guess +3000 to match the internal sim module's modification).

That's how I would handle it. Would be fairly consistent since the increase from cold to hot sim seems to raise the cost to 250% of the unmodified version.

Gotcha.

Datajack is like the old datajack still, ala input/output only (+ memory now + acts as a chipjack)
Sim module is the piece of hardware that allows for VR input to brain and brain to control comm? through trodes/ datajack or from an implanted comm.

Oh and they changed the cyber eyes now: they include an image link and recording device standard.

And if not paid for, I wonder whether the Hardware+Logic(10, hour) test is still possible, or if it would require a cybertechnology role and the hardware, or what.

I mostly just am happy not to have to dump another 0.2 essence on what seemed like a redundant piece of hardware to me when already having to pay more to have the commlink implanted in the body or cyberlimb.

I guess it would indeed be a Cybertech, not a Hardware test. And it would require minor surgery, I guess. Not something you do in front of your mirror, but should be done easily by any streetdoc worth his money. At least, if he is sober.

Oddly, my 3rd printing does contain that phrase.

I guess that's a good thing, then. Little weird, though.

I'm not crazy. See. Why do I get the book that doesn't mention it?

You might not be crazy, but your book seems to have some serious issues.

I have a "corrected 4th printing" of the main book. It makes no mention of a cranial commlink having a built in sim module.

Bah, then on page 218 it says "A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, ect)." Emphasis mine. *Annoyed*

So, the even printings, don't get sim modules in their crenial commlinks, while the uneven do. Let's wait for 5th printing. That will be hillarious.

OK, noob here (bows to everyone )... Kanada the Street Sammie on p101 of the PDF version of the SR4 core book has Cybereyes. Therefore he has an image link and an eye recorder for free)

Now on pg 228 of the PDF version of the SR4 Core book it states: "Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules." So to me, this says that the implanted Commlink has a free sim module.

"Fresh meat! I can make so may improvements!"



You got that right, but apprantly some printings don't have the crenial commlink part. Which is totally weird, since the errata does not mention it, and the words disappeared in 2nd printing, reappered in 3rd and then disappeared again in 4th.

So right know, stick with what makes you comfortable.

Do you have the Fifth printing by any chance? I guess the PDF version should be available now.

Yes we are already aware of that, but as I pointed out, and kanada ten pointed out our print versions of the books do not mention commlinks at all. I have the first edition printing of the book on pdf, and it does mention cranial commlinks having them, but my actual hardcopy fourth printing of the book doesn't say anything at all about them. That is the problem. We have four versions of the book. Half of them (1, 3) say cranial commlinks do, half them (2, 4) say nothing about them having one. So which one is correct? There is equal evidence for both sides.

EDIT

Don't want it to sound like I am jumping you. Just putting out that we know what the book says, but we got the same book (different printings) saying two different things.

I think I have the Fifth edition (can't for the life of me find the edition number)

Try page 13, right above the "Find us online"

Should be somewhere at the end of the Table of Content pages. That would be page 13 with me, should be same for you.

looked on page 13, and I found this:

"Version 1.0 by FanPro LLC, Chicago, Illinois, USA. Based on first printing with additional corrections"

The PDF file name is FPR26000_SR4acr5.pdf if that helps.

This is what mine has too. Whee for inconsistent printings. I wonder what else changed that no one knows about.

I have the PDF, version 1.3 (says on page 13 'based on second printing with additional corrections). I believe this is the latest version of the PDF, as it was not updated with the 4th printing IIRC (if not I'll be pissed off at not getting an update notice).

Remember the whole FanPro/Catalyst switch? Yes, it's pretty much time to get pissed

I'm not pissed that there is an update to the hardcopy but not the PDF. I would be upset if there was an actual updated PDF (4th printing) before the Catalyst change. The change of ownership (or whatever) is something beyond their control.

Yes it is beyond their control, but if things got messed up, it was during that change. And my "get pissed" suggestion was to get pissed in general, not at anyone specificly. Release your anger, come to the dark side. Ahem.

Be nice if they released it into the errata. Say "Yes they get one" or "No you have to buy the seperate headware."

Adam mentioned that an updated PDF was in the works in a thread somewhere.

back to the original topic: I just had a look at SR4.01D:



In English:



Mind you to take this with a grain of salt as the German translations happened to wander off before.

Edit: It also lists the Hot-Sim Modification under the Commlink entry in the corresponding Headware table on the same page, not under Sim-module as the english BBB.

This commlink business is so incredibly messed up. A nice errata on that topic would be nice, I guess.

When all things are said and done, it's just 0.2 essence, and 2000 nuyen that you have to spend more or less.

That's what I said, but there is a considerable faction that claims you have to throw in the sim module for another 0.2 essence and 2/5k .

Funny thing is, this mess started because of datajacks

I'm pretty sure that it was the Sim Module to which Fuchs was referring, since implanted commlinks cost more than 2k.

Dammit.

Well depends on how you look at it. Since you would have spent the money on the commlink anyways. The implanted one really only "costs" you 2k. Since that 6k or whatever extra for the commlink is 6k you would have spent on an external one anyways.

Well, we are already assuming the purchase of the internal commlink is a given. What is up for debate is whether the Sim Module (.2 Essence/2000k) is a necessary addition. Makes sense that he would recap what the actual discussion entailed, as opposed to pointing out the stats for something that is already a given.

But whatever ... it isn't really that important.

That's what I meant. It's not 2 essence and 20K or even 200K.

I don't know about you, but I find even .2 Essence can be quite important when you are trying to squeeze in upgrades.

What price does it have for the hot-sim modification out of curiosity? 5000?

Yup.

Essentially just reiterating Fortune's comment, but the .2 essence is the thing I get twitchy about. I don't mind if a hot-sim modified cranial commlink costs 3K or 5K extra, but when I'm already making a practical cyberzombie with all the ware I tend to cram in, paying an extra 0.2 essence kind of sucks.