So, I was motivated by all the talk against it (including my own) to see how well I could do with a two-gun wielding maniac...

So, here's a skeletal character sheet, assuming char gen initially, with improvements mentioned briefly at the end:

Race: Elf [30 BP]

Qualities:
-Ambidexterity [5 BP]
-Aptitude (Automatics) [10 BP]
-Genetic Heritage: Optimization (Agility) [10 BP]
-Adept [5 BP]
-Martial Art: Krav Maga (Take Aim -> free action) [5 BP]

Bioware: [total Ess: -1.8]
Synaptic Boosters (2) [32 BP in Y; 1 Ess]
Enhanced Articulation [8 BP in Y; 0.3 Ess]
{+1 to all Physical skills as a modifier...for Automatics and Dodge}
Muscle Toner (2) [14K Y, 0.4 Ess]
Reflex Recorder (Automatics) [2 BP in Y; 0.1 Ess]

Glasses/Goggles with Ultrasound sensors and Vision Mag
{w/Natural low light and ultrasound, should get the least vision penalties}
{also, with Vision Mag and Take Aim as a free action, Range modifiers for a single target are gone too}

{IF, Genetic Heritage doesn't cost 0.2 Ess, THEN also get these and change the glasses/goggles:
Cyberware: [total Ess: -0.4 --> -0.2 Ess]
Smartlink [0.1 Ess]
--even dual wielded it helps to change firing modes and know status of guns and all....
Ultrasound Sensor [6K Y, 0.3 Ess--cyber]
}


Agility: 2 -> 7(9) [50 BP, then augmented by Muscle Toner]
{Genetic Opt made getting to 7 cheaper and raised the Aug max to 12 to have room for improvement}

Automatics (SMGs): 7(9) use the Aptitude and specialize [30 BP]

Adept, so Magic from 1 --> 5 [40 BP], take the -2 Ess hit Mag: 3
Improved Ability (Automatics): 3 1.5 PP
Nimble Fingers: 0.5 PP {fast reloading and such}
Combat Sense: 2 1 PP {help with Dodging}

Then, Dodge (Ranged): 4(6) [18 BP]
Reaction 5(7) [40 BP]
...dump stat, Wil, Str, Bod, Log, Cha all at 1-3...
..decent Int for Perception... count on dodging for damage...

All this gives:

9+7+1+3 (Agi+Skill+Refl_Rec+Improv'd_Abil) = 20 base pool

Split: 10/10
Modifiers: +1+2 each (Specialztn & Enh Articul)

For 13/13 with two SMGs

OR 23 dice with one of them! (25 w/smartlink)

With Dodge(Ranged) of 4+2+2+1+5+2 = 16! [Skill + Spec + Combat Sense + Enh Articul + Reac + Synap Boosters]

Now also use these guns: [~1 BP each in cost, including ammo]
Two Ingram Smartguns with... (using Arsenal mods)
--Upgrade to Gas Vent 3 [1 SLOT]
--Heavy Barrel [1 SLOT]
--Personalized Grip [1 SLOT]
--Extended Clip [1 SLOT]
--With EX explosive rounds!
For: 6P -1AP BF/FA RC: 5(6) 40© <12R ~4000 Y each...
{Can do burst fire with both guns with both simple actions and have no recoil penalties at all...}
{Then, can readily only shoot with one of them (either) on Full Auto, and have plenty of dice to use with the uncompensated recoil}
{Even going two-handed full auto is a legitimate option without loosing all his dice....}

Assuming Bod, Str, Wil, Log all at 2, Cha at 3 and Int at 4, leaves 35 BP to spend @ char gen without any negative qualities, so...
with 35 BP in negative qualities, you'd still have 70 BP to spend after all of the above, on:
-Perception, Infiltration, some Athletics, and odds and ends to tidy him up....
-If negative qualities are maxed out, up his Edge a bit to 3-5 range... to pull out the stops with both guns...


SO, one could spend the 25 BP to up his Agility once more for another die: 14/13 and 24 (26 w/smartlink) for two-handed, one-handed, respectively, even at Chargen.

LATER:
ALSO, upping Muscle Toners and/or grabbing a Suprathyroid Gland (and upping Magic by one) can max out Agility to 12 to get to 15/14 or 26 (28 with smartlink).
Any other bonuses I missing?!? Whatcha think?!?
--maybe make it Gymnastic Dodge, so a Synthacardium can one day add +2 dodge dice also...

Should we can 'em "Two-guns" and make it a female elf

In summary: At Char gen, 13/13 pools for two 6P -1AP SMGs, w/ no recoil (if using 4 shots of burst fire), no range penalties, and minimized vision penalties, while still having 3 IPs... Did I miss anything? Did I do anything wrong?

Good gods your dice pool scares me a lot.

If you can squeeze a str 4 (6) out somehow, then you can actually do recoil-less long/short bursts if I'm not mistaken.

Colt Cobras Z118
w/ Barrel-mounted Gas Vent 3
w/ Personalized Grips
w/ Skinlink
w/ Auto-adjusting Weight


Str 6 gives 1 recoil + 1 from grip + 3 from GV3 + 3 from autoweight (1 on first burst + 2 on second burst) = 6/2

So long/short is -5/-3 recoil

5 is absorbed, 1 point left over from the first . Second is absorbed by the extra point + 2.

Fear the barrage of 18 bullets at those scary dice pools.

Also just realized. Enhanced Articulation only adds a +1 to physical active skills (stealth and athletics and the like), not combat skills (which are in a separate group now sadly). So 13/12.

Still ungodly scary, given that my semi-equivalent ambidextrous combat hacker build I've been playing with only manages like 9/9. Then again, he can full parry for 20 dice at the same time as making a 14 dice attack and is a beast at AR hacking, but still. Makes me want to see if I can squeeze him into an elf build somehow.

Make her a crazy chinese chick with a tribal tattoo on the shoulder and call her "Two-Hands"

OOOOH! Shiny! I like that tricked out Colt, RC: 7 on an SMG....awesome!

If you let Dodge and Reaction drop a smidge, and took that 35 in negative qualities, and dumped a few other attribs to 1, you could get him up to 6 Str without any 'ware for 55 BP...

Now you got me thinking we should just make those AV rounds and have him mow down Citymasters .(....ok, ok, that's still a bit of a stretch, but the image is cool, and he'd have a fighting chance at it at least...)


...rats on the Enhanced Articulation....that actually makes it 12/12, as the modifier I thought it gave would have been added after the split....drat....

thats pretty good. of course, you can be rolling 17/16 if you were using Force 2 custom-gripped weapon foci, and utilizing the Multi-Strike manuver from martial arts. and doing a double attack + finishing move double attack, the target would be at a -4 defense modifier (assuming they themselves are not dual wielding) before taking wound modifiers into account.

@Daier Mune, yeah, that'd be sick, but requires melee ranges, two SMGs are long range without a range penalty is pretty nuts even at 12/12

hmm, i wonder what a cyborg would be capable off...

Can't cyborgs have multiple weapons mounts and all too....yeesh

I had thought about tracer rounds for "Two-guns" as well, but even with Full Auto it's only +3/+3, which still doesn't break even with the +1DV, -1AP of the EX explosive rounds.... is that thinking right?

well as it all hinge on agility, and cyborgs seems to beat the elf at that game...

I would suggest Cyborgs be left out of the comparison based purely on the fact that you could have a cyborg in a body that was - theoretically, anyway - a giant ball of SMGs and he could fire them all at once, and then agility wouldn't matter at all.

Seems kinda like bringing a rigger and his semi to the "who can do the most impact damage without magic" contest.

well, if we limit the cyborg to handheld weaponry in a anthroform "shell"?

Someone already pointed out that the enhanced articulation doesn't work for automatics and dodge. The reflex recorder also counts towards the skill x 1.5 cap, so you can't have it and improved ability: 3. You can either drop it, or drop improved ability to 2, since you can improve a skill by 3 points max.

On the positive side, nimble fingers actually only costs 0.25 power points (it's quick draw that costs 0.50).

with aptitude he could get his skill max to 7/11 if it's still being rounded up . . if it's rounded down it's still 7/10

If you can squeeze in 15BP for Martial Arts: Krav Maga then you can draw both SMGs as a free action, add an extra +1 Die from Take Aim as an free action, and reduce the Melee Combat penalty to -2 Dice.

So provided you beat them on initiative, it doesn't really matter if your opponent is 2 feet away, they are still probably toast...

Alternatively, forget about the "firing both at once" thing and just use the two weapons to get two long bursts. You'll do a ton more damage, in fact if you can handle the recoil you will outdamage an alpha firing a long and then short burst. Of course, you have to invest in the Ambidex trait, so fair's fair. I'd take two long bursts from this character's full dice pool over four bursts from half any day of the week.

I have a character who does this with machine pistols (the one that's capable of FA) and two cyberarm gyromounts. Slightly less damage for a very badass "I've watched Equilibrium too many times" feeling.

Not only cyborgs, basically, anyone with a full cyberarm can have one.
They are like smart weapons platforms without the recoil compensation and hold anything up to an SMG.

There's also a scarier version for cybertorsos, you can put anything up to an LMG on that mother, but it eats up a lot of capacity (from memory, i'd guess 7 points).

Hm...dual cyberarms with maxed out AGI, high STR and internal gyros for recoil compensation and weapons platforms might be too expensive...or aren't they?
One should take a look at that option...


BTW, don't take Genetic Heritage if you don't absolutely have to!
I cannot stretch this enough!
It's not worth the BP you have to sacrifice for it.

Damn, i looked it up and external weapon mounts do not only take up [7], they also have an availybility of 16F.
So, no quadruple SMG goodness at chargen.

Anyway, here's the deal on a couple of arms for my approach towards a SMG monstrosity build.

Asuming elf as metatype, one could use the optimized cyberlimb option to bring AGI up to 7, STR to 6 and BOD to 4 (with an availability of 12 overall, otherwise, one could also push BOD to unaugmented maximum and add 4 points of bulk modification).

The remaining full capacity of [15] could be used like this :

-gyromount [4]
-AGI +3, bringing it up to (10) [3]

This would leave us with [8], either to be spared to add external weapon mounts later on or for other goodies as desired.

Costs with the listed options, not including the external mounts, who would cost 2500 , would run up to 33.750 per arm or 67500 a pair.
Probably too expensive to combine it with a synaptic accelerator, but it leaves enough money for an alpha rebo, a memory recorder and various biotech goodies, such as the ever-useful trauma damper.
Plus, you get AGI (10), higher STR, room for nifty extras, one additional box for your physical damage monitor and more recoil compensation.

Small point, to use a smartlink you also need a image/display link (forgot what the bugger's called these days). Cybereyes have these built in naturally but the retinal mods I don't think do.

Otherwise that's a scary build, but probably not much use outside of a fight down in the barrens.

I´ll second the notion of two long bursts instead of four short bursts. Even if there is recoil. There is no uncompensated recoil with your SMGs. Also, you do not need to split the DP, and therefore do not need to crunch it as much.

Max. efficiency builds will have to consider two combat shotguns (optional rule for 1-handed usage from Arsenal). It´s only a -2 DP mod.

The genetic heritage advantage only takes away the monetary price (IIRC what Synner said, would need to check the Augmentation Q&A).

How about a skeletal build for those who actually intent to use two long-burst automatic weapons:
- two IPs should be sufficient, as you get four recoil-less long bursts (see weapon below)
- while Agility is one of the better attributes to max, it is still not worth it. So lets take Agi at the softcap, +2 from Muscle Aug.
- Ambidexterity is a given
- Automatic Weapons are a given, with recoil reduction and FA mode being the main concern.
- Dodge is a given, you´ll draw the remaining enemy fire like no tomorrow. Also, your selection of cover is much more limited.

Evil note: If they can suck the -2 for the offhand, most automatic weapon users can pull it off. It´s not as if ambidexterity was required.

Yeah so? *g*
that is more or less exaclty what this character is meant for as far as i can tell ^^
Also there's still no rules for really MORE ARMS on a Body . . and none for mounting close-combat Weapons on those weapon mounts either, so none of those kali thingies are buildable ;_;

Could be wrong but you mention using EX ammo which after errata is +1DV. After Errata EX EX is now needed to get the +1DV and -1AP.

See my twin colt TZ118's in the second post.

Why settle for two long bursts when you can have two long bursts AND two short bursts, all without a single point of recoil?


That aside, with a two gun build, it's almost pointless if you can't completely soak the recoil because of the rule about uncompensated recoil from one weapon affecting the other weapon when two-gun firing.

By that, if you have -1 recoil left on both guns, both will get a -2. If you have -2, -4. And so on.

Of course, 8 points of recoil is enough to do a long/short and that's just str 6 + grip + GV3 + auto-adjusting weight.

Ryu: Ignore my last. I just realized you meant hyper-velocity two long bursts.

I haven't figured out a way to do it that's viable. You need 11 points of recoil to manage it without recoil (which from my above post is still bad due to the doubling effect)

If you had a str 14 monster (3) with grip (1), GV3 (3), and auto-adjusting weight (3), that's only 10.

If you got a loving GM who'd let you go over the limit of 6 mod slots on the guns, you could add Heavy Barrel for 11. Put these mods on the Ingram Supermach and go to town throwing out 24 bullets per round without flinching.

Bah, scratch that. Heavy barrel only adds to full bursts. I thought it was to any full auto, which includes long bursts. Bleh. So yeah. stuck at 10. Which means at least a -2 mod to fire two hypervelocity bursts.



Edited for str 14, not 12. And then to counteract my own use of heavy barrel

@Sombranox: No need to retract your point, I was talking of normal long bursts. You may only fire two weapons with a simple action, FA takes a complex action; if you want to do that by RAW, please quote the rule for that. (I think they included "simple action" because they wanted to keep FA out). For the single long burst: Only uncompensated recoil counts for the other weapon, and you can do that easily. Two long bursts per weapon end up recoil-less on the first burst. Then, max. RC comp - your weapon is illegal (autoweight+foregrip, see pg.148, we cut the foregrip anyway)

Second burst is 11-
Base: Ingram SuperMach 100 (base design RC: 3)
Mod: Gasvent 3 (illegal as barrel mount, so there you go)
Personalised Grip 1
Hip Pad 1
Heavy barrel 1
= 9.

Cyberarm-Gyromount 3 (one per arm)

Done already. Still, in my opinion this is illegal because you may only fire two weapons with a single action.

By grip I meant personalized grip, not foregrip.

But yeah, I forgot the supermach wouldn't take a barrel, so yours would work where mine wouldn't. I don't know if you can fire two weapons from hip pads at the same time. Maybe, but in my mind hip pads, stocks, and the like can only be used with two hand bracing to get the recoil effect.

Then again, You're at 12 with the gyro hand so can drop out the hip pad and still hit the 11.

In any case, looking at the RAW on two-weapon firing, it does say simple action, but the description of hypervelocity weapons is that they can fire two long bursts a round, both as simple actions.

So with two hypervelocity guns, you can still do long/long dual-wielding. In my interpretation at least. I could be totally wrong.

Hip pads only give a bonus for heavy weapons. I forget exactly what wording Arsenal uses, but they're limited to like, MMGs, HMGs, miniguns and assault cannons.

Hmm, ok. I read "Two long bursts in a single action phase" as "two long bursts per IP", not "two long bursts per simple action". The first sentence of the paragraph is talking about fireing FA.

I´d like to keep the hip pad (we have 3 pts. of gyromount RC, those can compensate for movement), but I see your point. Certainly the build will still be viable without...

(It is interesting to note that FA fire can be handled without recoil, I was not sure before I did the calculations.)

1 long burst per simple action. 2 per phase for hypervelocity.

I was pointing out that because it's a simple action, you could fire two hypervelocity SMGs (one in each hand) in a single action, and thereby fire four per turn. At least by my understanding.

And that's where the cyberarms come in.
3 points of recoil compensation from internal gyromounts alone, plus maxed out STR and AGI for a discount price.

I haven't got Arsenal yet, so i don't know to what degree you have to beef up STR to get 2 points of recoil compensation, but with the arms and the easily possible STR (9), it might even be possible to exchange the gas vents for a sound suppressor without suffering recoil.
Not sure on this, however, someone with a copy of Arsenal would have to do the math on this.

You are right, our little monster is legal. Did not read the base rules for this closely enough. Should any of my players stumble in here, the answer is "No!".

too late you already said its good.
if you unevenly split the dicepools and fire a wide burst to decrease their dodgepool you are almost guaranteed a hit

This is very true in a normal situation, but if used for genetic optimization it only costs 1 extra bp. So if you need to squeeze in every last dime you can for gear like cyber and bioware then it sometimes becomes necessary, since it frees up 9 bp worth of resources, still allowing you to spend your full 50 bp of money on other gear. So it costs you 60bp for 59 bp worth of resources.

About the only time I could justify it. Now if it got rid of the essence cost it would definately be worth it.

6 - 9 = 1 Point,
10 - 13 = 2 points
14 - 17 = 3 Points
STR 18+ = 4 points

would personalized grip on foregrip make that +2 recoil compensation?

LOL..... I think I'd have to draw the line at personalizing the foregrip....plus you can't fit a foregrip won't stack recoil with the auto-adjusting weight anyway...

Double hypervelocity action! Sweet!

As for the Genetic Heritage, it's only slightly more than taking Genetic Optimization straight up at 10 BP vs. 8ish BP, BUT....its taking the place of Exceptional Attribute which costs 20 BP, so it actually makes out nicely....trying to squeeze in all the qualities and all.... ALSO, I couldn't easily afford the 8 BPs in nuyen what with the Synaptic Boosters and all to fit under the 50 BP cap in nuyen at char-gen....hence taking it as a quality for a few extra (non-nuyen) BPs..

I hadn't thought of the cyber arms though, will have to look into that...

Could everyone please stop talking of personalised foregrips in this thread?

We are not talking four-armed samurais here! (The point about them generally not adding up was already made)

Might as well drop Enhanced Articulation, it doesn't help Combat skills...rats! Anyway...

One problem.... I'm pretty sure auto-adjustable weights, don't stack recoil compensation with gyromounts, you can't get around it that way......
SO, a gyromount is RC:3 and an auto-adjustable weight is RC:3, it's a wash there, but gyromounts, don't take up capacity on the gun...

SO trying two cyberarms...

Two full arms: 1 x 2 Ess; Avail: 4, cost 15,000 each, 10 capacity each
SO..5 extra Agility up to 8, +7500 Y, +5 Avail, up to 6 Strength, +4500 Y, +3 Avail
So, two full cyber arms, Agi 8, Str 6, Bod 3, Avail 12, 0.9 Ess, 27,000 Y each, 54,000 Y total...
2 x Gyromounts [4] each = 2 x 6000Y = 12,000 Y
Torso 1.5 Ess, 20,000Y
THEN, Str and Agility enhancements Rating 4, x 2 arms, total: 4000Y [8] cap in each...
--you need to buy a Genetic Optimization in Strength too then...to get 10 Strength...

Two full cyber arms, Agi 12, Str 10, Bod 3, (w/torso: 2.5 Ess cyber), 90,000 Y total so far...


Yuck, that's a lot of Essence, hard to keep him with enough magic to get the Improved Ability enough, though I only need 2 Magic, but with -2.5 Ess above, and need for Boosters, Cyber eyes and a Reflex Recorder, he may have to shell out for 6 Magic!

Gyromount(3)+Gas Vent(3)+Personalized Grip(1)+Heavy Barrel(1)+Strength(2), so that's RC: 10 still... [unless you rule that cyber gyromounts ARE capable with the autoadjustable weight and get up to RC: 13!!!, but you'd also need more than 6 slots...)
Skills: 7 (w/ Aptitude) + Reflex Record (1) + Improved Ability (2) = 10 max + 2 spec [I think it's right that specialiazation only adds once and not after the split] = 12
THEN, use only tracer rounds in these weapons [this modifier of +2 does add to both pools...]

SO

hypervelocity: 4 long bursts in one IP, with tracer rounds:
no recoil (w/ a houserule on the auto-adjusting weight/gyromounts)
With Krav Maga and Vision Mag: either no range penalties OR +1/+1 for Taking Aim as a free action on one target...
With Ultrasound and Low Light minimize visibility penalties

Have pools of 14/14!!! [maybe....., it's alittle too much of a stretch for me.....]

SO without the extra slots and needed houserule, you can suffer 1 uncomp recoil per gun... and end up with

Two long bursts, 1st phase: 14/14
Two long bursts, 2nd phase: 12/12

Because two long bursts with 20 dice will always be better than four bursts with ~10 dice each.

The mechanics of the firing-two-guns-at-the-same-time rules are such that if you twink the crap out of your character to increase the dicepools when halved, you could do a ton better just firing once. That extra ten dice on the shot means 3 more damage, less chance to dodge, and they only get to apply armour and body *once*. A competent opponent might soak 5-6 points of damage per attack just on body+armour. There's the advantage of the second shot gone right there.

While it's fun trying to create a monstrosity like Raven's cyber-mystic-adept-ninja-monkey-pirate, you'll do less damage than if you fired two long bursts, one from each gun. You'll also do less damage than the more conventional sammie who just brought an alpha.

Two long bursts gets you all the awesomeness of two guns blazing without the massive self-inflicted uselessness that is halving your dice pool. If you want to burst in and fire both guns at once, resolve that as a suppressive fire attempt, it should have those corporate scum diving for the receptions desk in no time.

But the Dice Pool isn't split quite that way. The Dice Pool of Agility + Automatics is split before modifiers for specialization and the like are added.

And negative mods also apply to both parts of the pool.

The HVAR users could fire three bursts per IP, split pool for the first simple action, use only one weapon on the second simple action. Any solid weapon will not generate recoil on the first long burst. If you do not want to much RC and weapon DP so much, you can take a hit by recoil on the second long burst and compensate by not splitting the pool (Gasvent 3 + personalised grip + heavy barrel = RC 5; Agi 8 + Skill 4 (spec) = 8 dice for burst 1+2, 8 dice on the third). Most Samurai already come with what they need for that combo.

Yeah, but you also don't get smartlinking, etc etc. That's why I said ~10. It's not perfect halving but it usually comes out to near or slightly above half in perfect conditions, and then light and cover start to cause you problems.

The character worked up in this thread is about as twinked as you can get, and rather questionable in a number of places, and she still loses a dozen dice when going to half pools. That's four damage, which in our games at least is about the difference between needing one shot to put someone out and needing two.

In all honesty, I didn't notice the '~'.

But nothing says that you have to split your Pools evenly.

Thanks! I'll take that as a compliment... I realized I was pushing it a bit, but it was fun... and trying to prove a point... I'd never want to try and play such a character in a game, even if the GM let me....

For two long bursts, you may as well get a hypervelocity weapon one-handed and go from there, which the more I think about and read the responses, IS the better route in terms of damage... I just wanted to see if you could make a fairly good two-gunner if you REALLY wanted to (not like it's a smart move still unless against a crowd of unarmed Barrens' gangers...)

As for not splitting the pools evenly....each pair of long bursts, could have one with more dice for a narrow burst (+DV), with the other with a smaller pool, but a wide burst (-dice to them), to even it out...

OK, but in that case what's the advantage of the massively penalised other shot?



Indeed. Twinked characters have their place, and this is it!


An HVAR weapon has big recoil problems if you don't want to bring a full gyrostablisation unit. Two long-bursting SMGs can make use of two gas vents and two cyberarm gyros, making recoil a lot easier. It's another good option, though. I'm just offering an option in which you can use two guns and be similarly effective. You also get somewhat more versatility from having two clips and more upgrade mounts, I suppose.

At the end of the day if all we cared about was absolute effectiveness we'd probably all build orks with Ares Alphas. That gets pretty dull, though.

this character probably could fire the vindicator without getting (too many) problems from recoil O.o
by the way, is there something in arsenal that says you can't have an Hyper Velocity Minigun? o.O

I´m considering a char with gyrostabilisation and SA Nemesis light machine gun. The option of two SMGs is a nice alternative. I do not think a gyromount and a LMG would fit into a backpack. Two SMGs could.

It still inflicts a defense penalty - and if the 'cost' to you is minimum, it gives you style and a random chance for massive damage because sometimes the off hander will actually hit, while hopefully breaking even on the cost of dedicating decide to the shot thanks to the defense penalties.

If you are firing four full bursts per IP, you should split your pool evenly. You´ve only got so much edge, regular rolling with relativly few dice WILL depleet it. You are still throwing four attacks per round, and thats -4 to defense should the target live (shudder). You have team-mates, too.

something i'd been meaning to ask . . could one shoot one wide burst to make dodging harder for target and then shoot one narrow to get more damage while the target still has a low dodge pool?

other than the fact that a minigun kind of already is a HV gun?

actualy, i think is funny and quaint to see man portable miniguns in games. but thats neither here nor there.

Raven, i salute you, sir. congradulations on breaking the game.