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DireRadiant
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 15 2008, 07:58 AM) *
Can Datajacks run programs? How does that work?


See p. 214 Sample Devices Table, Bodyware and Headware are listed.
Ryu
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Feb 15 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Hmmmmmm. I would not allow datajacks to operate like cyber commlinks.. If you did that why not your cyber eyeball or ear? Your aluminum bone lacing?? Your AR Glove? Hmmmm....


The only reason why a datajack can not replace the comlink is the lack of a SimModule. If you do not want to go into VR and possess both cybereyes and cyberears for displaying audio and video data, a comlink is not needed. You are missing out on the VR and all SenseTracks you don´t have cyberware for.

Lets hope Unwired proves that there was a grand master plan.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 15 2008, 07:50 AM) *
As with any node. Datajacks can not replace a comlink, but they can at the very least use encryption (Duh!), Stealth (for being in hidden mode), and Agents/IC as any node can. Communication is one of their functions, they can handle it (intended for wired use, but the interface should not care).


I don't think the designers intended for a Datajack to work like that because a hacker can upgrade the 'Jack to have a response 5 and then load an Uber-Agent into that node and then have it access the world without impacting the commlink. This would allow any hacker to hack Agent Fu style.
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 15 2008, 10:53 AM) *
See p. 214 Sample Devices Table, Bodyware and Headware are listed.


Gah. The notion that a data jack can run IC, aka an Agent, just rubs me the wrong way. But irritatingly, p304 of BBB does imply you can load all your devices down with encryption and IC.

There's just no reason for a stock datajack (headware: Device rating 3) to have the processing power of a mid-range comm. I'd at least argue that it would have to be a custom app designed to work on the "operating system" used by that kind of headware. E.g. breaking the copy protection would let you share IC between data jacks but not between a data jack and a Comm.


Abbandon
I am sympathetic to people wanting cyber nodes to be dumb as hell and like limit agents and programs to a rating of 1, but its pretty clear thats not the case. The devs said they are more powerful and so im fine with it.

I think MORE people would be pissed off if they could only protect their cyberware and stuff with R1 programs and agents lol.

Its a pretty mute point though right? How many pieces of cyber are there where you would leave it on?? an implanted commlink and?? Maybe eyes and ears just so you can give live audio/visual from your position to the rest of the team. What else has to be WIFI ON?
Fortune
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Feb 16 2008, 07:58 AM) *
Gah. The notion that a data jack can run IC, aka an Agent, just rubs me the wrong way. But irritatingly, p304 of BBB does imply you can load all your devices down with encryption and IC.


I don't get this at all. If IC (an Agent) can run on your toaster (and it can), then why the hell couldn't it run on a Datajack?
Ryu
Yep, thats the point. The datajack would need some beefed signal, as cyberware is usually signal 0 IIRC. Still cheaper than a full link.

Unless someone finds a reason why this is not allowed, I´m going to use my riggers datajack as secure secondary matrix link for AR (basic safe net).

And yeah, by RAW one samurais headware can run a whole agent army. Eyes, Ears, Math SPU, Data Jack, Wired Reflexes,...
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 15 2008, 04:52 PM) *
Yep, thats the point. The datajack would need some beefed signal, as cyberware is usually signal 0 IIRC. Still cheaper than a full link.

Unless someone finds a reason why this is not allowed, I´m going to use my riggers datajack as secure secondary matrix link for AR (basic safe net).

And yeah, by RAW one samurais headware can run a whole agent army. Eyes, Ears, Math SPU, Data Jack, Wired Reflexes,...


Yeah, but would you want to run an agent on your wired reflexes? If it crashes it might just take them with it.

(dumb) Question, does having a Datajack give you simsense? Or just a link to simsense module.
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 15 2008, 04:30 PM) *
I don't get this at all. If IC (an Agent) can run on you toaster (and it can), then why the hell couldn't it run on a Datajack?


{semi OT}
I didn't say that IC running on a toaster doesn't rub me the wrong way either. I want "smart" appliance to be stupid relative to a comm. What reason is there for my toaster to have as much brains as a 1990 PC let alone a 2070 comm? There's no logic (aka cost justification) I can think of for the corps to load the toaster of 2070 with enough processing power to run an agent/ic/2060 smart frame.

Anything beyond installing encryption up to the device rating should require a hardware upgrade, IMO. You want to protect the data on your toaster; encrypt and databomb the files.

Doesn't mean that's the way the rules are written but it'd be my druthers.
{/OT}
Abbandon
On its own? no. If your matrix is going through your commlink which has a sim mod, and then on to your datajack then you will get simsense.

As far as I have seen you either get simsense signals and ____ Links in your cyber let you experience it or it goes to your sim module and pumps it right into your brain.
Ryu
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 15 2008, 11:03 PM) *
Yeah, but would you want to run an agent on your wired reflexes? If it crashes it might just take them with it.

(dumb) Question, does having a Datajack give you simsense? Or just a link to simsense module.


No, it would not take the WR with it. There is no rule making your System crash together with a program. If someone crashed my WRs System, then painful twitching could happen, no joke.

A datajack gives you DNI, but not simsense. You need specialised hardware to interpret sensetracks, either the sim module or cybereyes/ears. A SimModule is only useable in conjunction with a comlink, it is not under "accessoires usable by most devices".
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 15 2008, 08:26 PM) *
A SimModule is only useable in conjunction with a comlink, it is not under "accessoires usable by most devices".
But a simrig is [under Accessories on page 318] and also [incorporates] a sim module, which, combined with the fluff, would indicate that sim modules are usable without a commlink (think prison).
Ryu
I´ll need to think about that - I´ve read the comlink description again, and my chars seem to be lacking none of the functions anyway (I´ll have my datajacks signal boosted to say 5 and plug in an external sim module if I want VR).
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 16 2008, 08:55 AM) *
I'll need to think about that - I've read the comlink description again, and my chars seem to be lacking none of the functions anyway ('ll have my datajacks signal boosted to say 5 and plug in an external sim module if I want VR).

Hm, well, looking at the device rating (Sr 213: "If a particular device plays an important role in an adventure, the gamemaster should assign a full complement of Matrix attributes to it."), it seems like when a device is replacing the commlink, you could charge them for the OS, under the theory that most devices are intended to attach to a hub, rather than be one, so a software upgrade is required. But, otherwise, I can't see anything that prevents DNI devices from being just as powerful as a commlink...
Ryu
I would charge for an upgrade, always (even if the resulting price jumps are as stupid as the comlink costs seem to be). The basic complement of matrix attributes comes free.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 16 2008, 10:18 AM) *
I would charge for an upgrade, always (even if the resulting price jumps are as stupid as the comlink costs seem to be). The basic complement of matrix attributes comes free.

Make sure your GM feels that way. The rule is actually really ambiguous: "Unless it has been customized or changed in some way, assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular device equals its Device rating." Which means a toaster should cost about 260 nuyen.gif...

But a betaware datajack (cost 2000 nuyen.gif) would be worth 17,000 nuyen.gif!
D-Franco83
I would like to clarify something. I also have a non-hacker pc that wants his commlink to protect/erase data if compromised/assist the hacker for data searches. He has no computer skills at all, but he was going to use an Agent to do the work. Therefore, should he:

1. Get the cheap commlink/os and just upgrade it to a decent rating (3-5)?

2. Get a Agent rating 3-4?

3. Get ECCM, Scan, Analzye, Sniff, Stealth, Decrypt, Encrypt?

4. What about Autosofts? Wouldn't the Agent need an autosoft (electonic warfare) to use some of the programs that require the electronic warfare skill?

The character has a remaining budget of around 12,000. It's one of those things that I learned after playing a few sessions that spending some money on that commlink isn't always a bad idea.
Abbandon
@D-Franco
-If you dont take Computer then you will be defaulting everytime you command your agent.
-Agents dont use autosofts. They use their rating + program.
-Just to protect your comm all you need is Command, Stealth, ECCM, Spoof, Edit, Analyze, Scan, Attack.

Decide what else you want to do beyond that and read up on the other programs. Decrypt and sniff is more for spying on others,
Ravor
Yeah, in a world where even your underware can play MP3s everyone should take at least the Computer skill, hell we are only talking about a few BPs that might save your sorry ass someday. cyber.gif Also I personally don't see why an Agent couldn't use an Autosoft if one was written for it as it's just another program, but I believe that it falls within the realm of DM Fiat.
D-Franco83
I was going to have the Agent do all the work. I just wasn't sure if you still needed the Computer skill.
Abbandon
An autosoft is a skill for a drone. What would an agent do with Targeting 6: heavy weapons autosofts?? Or Manuever 6 that tells him how to fly up/down and side to side to evade bullets??
Ravor
Not much unless you allow an Agent to act as a Pilot Program in a pinch, however an Agent might be able to make use of autosoft programs much in the way that a meta makes use of a knowsoft or an activesoft...
Abbandon
this is about technomancers isnt it!!! You want a sprite to rig a drone and then thread it's butt to totally jack up the drones abilities....

I dont see why you would ever tell an agent to rig a drone...when you could just as if not more easily just tell the drone??
hobgoblin
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Feb 15 2008, 11:06 PM) *
{semi OT}
I didn't say that IC running on a toaster doesn't rub me the wrong way either. I want "smart" appliance to be stupid relative to a comm. What reason is there for my toaster to have as much brains as a 1990 PC let alone a 2070 comm? There's no logic (aka cost justification) I can think of for the corps to load the toaster of 2070 with enough processing power to run an agent/ic/2060 smart frame.

Anything beyond installing encryption up to the device rating should require a hardware upgrade, IMO. You want to protect the data on your toaster; encrypt and databomb the files.

Doesn't mean that's the way the rules are written but it'd be my druthers.
{/OT}


a SR toaster may well be more then just some heating elements and a timer system.

it could pack some serious sensors so that it can toast your bread to your exact specifications. and if you have guests then they may well be able to upload theirs.

also, it could very well be a prefilled one that will toast on order. as in, your doing something, and start to think about food, poke its AR interface and it will load up the number of slices you want and get to work, sending you a notice when its done.

or how about all coffee machines being espresso style ones (never mind that what one will be drinking is flavored soy and a chemical mix made to taste like something milk like) thats pre-loaded with everything needed. just transmitt your settings and be on your way.

dispensers at home as well as out wink.gif
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 17 2008, 03:49 AM) *
a SR toaster may well be more then just some heating elements and a timer system.

it could pack some serious sensors so that it can toast your bread to your exact specifications. and if you have guests then they may well be able to upload theirs.


None of that requires more processing power than existing digital cameras that can remove red eye after the picture has been taken. Contrast that with the ability to run an AI.

Ever seen the british sci fi comedy Red Dwarf? The one with the AI toaster? No one needs an AI toaster.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Feb 17 2008, 11:29 AM) *
Ever seen the british sci fi comedy Red Dwarf? The one with the AI toaster? No one needs an AI toaster.


Not an AI, more of an expert system... wobble.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Feb 17 2008, 05:29 PM) *
None of that requires more processing power than existing digital cameras that can remove red eye after the picture has been taken. Contrast that with the ability to run an AI.

Ever seen the british sci fi comedy Red Dwarf? The one with the AI toaster? No one needs an AI toaster.


code bloat, pure and simple wink.gif
swirler
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Feb 17 2008, 10:29 AM) *
Ever seen the british sci fi comedy Red Dwarf? The one with the AI toaster? No one needs an AI toaster.
No way! Talkie Toaster would be fantastic!
"Fly me to the moon and let me..."
*smack*
smeghead

Shrike30
I'd pass on putting the datajack in the character's hip. The typical implant location is the temple, with riggers sometimes going for the back of the neck (theoretically closer to those parts of your brain that you use when rigging... there used to actually be bonuses/penalties in Rigger 3 for "rigger type datajacks" and "decker type datajacks" IIRC) and combat types sometimes going for the wrists (making them easier to plug into the weapon or device they're using, allowing for wired connections in a high-ECM environment where wi-fi is useless). Getting to an implant in your hip requires you to get past all that other stuff you've got on your hip (like guns, ammo, grenades, water, and the like) and to have a gap in your body armor that the jack feeds out through.

With your suggested character background, temple or wrists seems the most likely choice. In the temple, you could have his helmet plugged into it, and some equipment built into the helmet (or even just have the helmet have a jack on the outside, to plug into).
Ravor
Abbandon no, I don't give Technomancers or their pets much thought.
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