Full Version: UCAS Military
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Dec 5 2003, 06:57 PM) |
No more Force Recon.  And it was such a cool name for a type of unit... |
Hang on, you mean that the whole thing is gone and disbanded - which I'd find silly and a bit unbelievable - or that they simply changed the name?
Edit: Ah, from what I can see they basically just amalgamated the two Recon and Force Recon units into a single battalion. But yeah, C Company just doesn't have the same ring to it as Force Recon.
| QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 5 2003, 09:01 AM) |
| I dunno, it would take some serious nerve to pull a knife and rush something like a Spirit. Imagine watching something manifest, shrug off bullets and then listen to your CO tell you that your knife will do more damage than your assault rifle. |
Hell, as far as I'm concerned that's something any high schooler would know by 2064.
| QUOTE (Rev) | ||
Realistically I suspect that the era of the military combat plane with a pilot is already over (not that I am any sort of expert). However in shadowrun encryption is so weak and jamming so strong compared to communication that remote control isn't nearly as reliable as it is in real life. |
Oh, yeah. How foolish of me to think that reality would be mimicked in SR.
| QUOTE (6thDragon) |
| I think a reasonable amount of cyber would be common for advanced combat arms units (Marines, Rangers, airborne, SF) I would assume WIred reflexes:1, Dermal Armor, bone lacing, commo implants, muscle replacement, cyber eyes, and possible some cheap bioware: platelet factories, enhanced articulation. ... I'm not saying every Marine would have the entire list. I just think many special duties would include some of them: Force Recon, FAST Company, HMX-1 (Presidential Helicopter Squardon), Presidential Security (Camp David Guards) ... |
Well, I see the point with the Presidential Security elements. If the Secret Service ERT and CAT teams at the WHC and Camp David are virtually guaranteed to be sporting some high-end 'ware, why not do the same for the Marines rather than treat them as cannon fodder?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the point of wired/boosted reflexes outside of SpecWar (SpecOps, SOLIC, whatever...) in a situation where the Infantry is expected to engage (of course, it is affected slightly by geopolitical perspective). I mean, I just don't see what kind of an edge it would give to 1st World forces fighting non-first world forces outside of certain specific circumstances (CQB) that would warrant the expenditures of time and money on something like Wired-1.
Oh, as far as Wildcats go, there's awriteup that's been around for a while, and is now here.
With all the military cutbacks and force downsizing, I would think most of the division level units would have been reduced to say a brigade. I think the army is starting to go that way now. So instead of having the 101st Airborne Division, it would be more like the 101st Airborne Brigade. The Marine Corps would probably be reduced to a division with accompanying air wing and support element, probably with at least one Marine Expeditionary Unit or two. By my counts the average army division is around 15,000-17,000 men. I also remember hearing that the total US military was at only 50,000. That would mean three divisions tops. Now that might have been just army because that's not much at all. Plus when you include the navy and air force. One aircraft carrier takes 5,000 people to man it. Sure by shadowrun times with computer automation that number is probably drastically reduced. But carriers are never unescorted. That's way America's navy is centered around the carrier battle group structure. Just a few thoughts.
Well, since at least Bug City the UCAS has had at least one Bennet-class light aircraft carrier--the USS Wolverine--escorted (I assume) by two guided missile frigates. I wouldn't be surprised if the UCAS Navy went back to the light aircraft carrier concept, perhaps based on the Marines' LHDs.
If any one has read rigger 3, the There is an alternate for the super carrier call the Powell-class. It also states that only the Japanese and UCAS have heavy carriers. THe UCAS Navy is most likly the UCASes strongest branch, as much as it pains me to admit that. 
Heh...
My group sank a Japanese Heavy Carrier.
And most of the battle group.
My group sank a Japanese Heavy Carrier.
And most of the battle group.
YES!!! Remind me to look you up when I do a CFS Reunification run!
Personeally, though, I think the Jap Heavy CArriers would be sunk by SEAL teams from New Hampshire classes. THe UCAS simply doesn't have the assets in theter to defeat imperial Japan /conventionaly/.
Personeally, though, I think the Jap Heavy CArriers would be sunk by SEAL teams from New Hampshire classes. THe UCAS simply doesn't have the assets in theter to defeat imperial Japan /conventionaly/.
Well, they were working for the Taiwanese government when Japan invaded.
So the Taiwanese gov't gave the team two tac nukes. One for a Japanese held city, one for the carrier.
My group fought off the underwater protection teams, cut a hole in the side of the ship and stuffed the nuke in.
So the Taiwanese gov't gave the team two tac nukes. One for a Japanese held city, one for the carrier.
My group fought off the underwater protection teams, cut a hole in the side of the ship and stuffed the nuke in.
| QUOTE (Utahraptor) |
| If any one has read rigger 3, the There is an alternate for the super carrier call the Powell-class. It also states that only the Japanese and UCAS have heavy carriers. THe UCAS Navy is most likly the UCASes strongest branch, as much as it pains me to admit that. |
I'd prefer to think of the Bennet-class carriers as in addition to the Powell-class supercarriers. After all, the Wolverine was in Lake Michigan.
Ahh, so your saying the would use light carriers in the Great Lakes?
I don't know why- too big to fit down the St. Lawrance seaway, and it's in the middle of UCAS territory. Operating from a land base is cheaper and safer.
Not would. They did. Whether it makes sense is irrelevant to me.
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| I don't know why- too big to fit down the St. Lawrance seaway, and it's in the middle of UCAS territory. Operating from a land base is cheaper and safer. |
Possibly it was built in the Great Lakes, instead of travelling the Seaway. A reason for it's presence there could be the existance of the NAN nations.
I'm not sure that you can't get a supercarrier to Lake Michigan. Now I'm not saying that you can either. It's just that I live in Detroit and we get ocean going vessels of all sizes around here. The depth of the Welland Locks is 27 feet. What's the draft of a Supercarrier?
Here are the current limits for ships passing through the locks on the St. Lawrence.
Yes, but we're not talking about a carrier the size of the JFK, and definitely not a Nimitz-class. We're talking about a light aircraft carrier--like the light carriers and escort carriers (aka, "jeep carriers") the Navy deployed during World War II.
Problem is, they're still too long. Then again, so are Perry-class frigates.
The Independence-class CVLs had these dimensions:
# Displacement: 11,000 tons
# Length: 619'
# Beam: 71' at water line
# Draft: 24'
The Saipan-class CVLs had these:
# Displacement: 14,500 tons
# Length: 638'7"
# Beam: 76'9"
# Draft: 25'
There were numerous CVEs:
Long Island Class:
* Displacement: 14,055 tons (full load)
* Length: 492'
* Beam: 69' at water line
* Draft: 25'6"
Bogue Class:
* Displacement: 15,200 tons (full load)
* Length: 495'8"
* Beam: 69' at water line
* Draft: 26'
Sangamon Class:
* Displacement: 23,350 tons (full load)
* Length: 553'
* Beam: 75' at water line
* Draft: 32'
Casablanca Class:
* Displacement: 10,982 tons (full load)
* Length: 512'3"
* Beam: 65' at water line
* Draft: 22'4"
Commencement Bay Class:
* Displacement: 24,100 tons (full load)
* Length: 557'1"
* Beam: 75' at water line
* Draft: 32'
Problem is, they're still too long. Then again, so are Perry-class frigates.
The Independence-class CVLs had these dimensions:
# Displacement: 11,000 tons
# Length: 619'
# Beam: 71' at water line
# Draft: 24'
The Saipan-class CVLs had these:
# Displacement: 14,500 tons
# Length: 638'7"
# Beam: 76'9"
# Draft: 25'
There were numerous CVEs:
Long Island Class:
* Displacement: 14,055 tons (full load)
* Length: 492'
* Beam: 69' at water line
* Draft: 25'6"
Bogue Class:
* Displacement: 15,200 tons (full load)
* Length: 495'8"
* Beam: 69' at water line
* Draft: 26'
Sangamon Class:
* Displacement: 23,350 tons (full load)
* Length: 553'
* Beam: 75' at water line
* Draft: 32'
Casablanca Class:
* Displacement: 10,982 tons (full load)
* Length: 512'3"
* Beam: 65' at water line
* Draft: 22'4"
Commencement Bay Class:
* Displacement: 24,100 tons (full load)
* Length: 557'1"
* Beam: 75' at water line
* Draft: 32'
Wow, oops.
Since the length max is 730 ft., the Draft max is 28 ft., and the Beam max is 78 ft., the following class-sized ships would make it: Independence CVL, Saipan CVL, Long Island CVE, Bogue CVE, and Casablanca CVE.
I wish I caught that a long time ago.
And that is today's lesson on why posting when you're an idiot is a bad idea.
But OTOH it wouldn't matter if the ship was either built in the Great Lakes, or the St. Lawrence was expanded (which I will not dare comment on for lack of knowledge).
As for the purpose, shrug, to stop pirates?
Since the length max is 730 ft., the Draft max is 28 ft., and the Beam max is 78 ft., the following class-sized ships would make it: Independence CVL, Saipan CVL, Long Island CVE, Bogue CVE, and Casablanca CVE.
I wish I caught that a long time ago.
And that is today's lesson on why posting when you're an idiot is a bad idea.
But OTOH it wouldn't matter if the ship was either built in the Great Lakes, or the St. Lawrence was expanded (which I will not dare comment on for lack of knowledge).
As for the purpose, shrug, to stop pirates?
What if we go Starship Troopers?
When you enlist, it is for a "term not less than 4 years."
After you complete training, you can apply for career status, which means you stay in for as long as they want you to.
Terms get crap, external gear, and basic grunt work. Meanwhile, Career Personell get better gear, training, enhancements, and faster promotions. Unfortunately, you dont retire until they retire you. One way or the other.
When you enlist, it is for a "term not less than 4 years."
After you complete training, you can apply for career status, which means you stay in for as long as they want you to.
Terms get crap, external gear, and basic grunt work. Meanwhile, Career Personell get better gear, training, enhancements, and faster promotions. Unfortunately, you dont retire until they retire you. One way or the other.
Service better guarantee citizenship or I'm not joining.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Dec 6 2003, 02:24 AM) | ||
That's not too surprising, considering how many SEALs there are all around the world IRL. Just the combat troops (the actual SEAL Teams) number a total of well over a thousand (~1,000 in the platoons plus all the headquarters and command elements), and then there's a few hundred officers and ratings in the separate command and control elements (Naval Special Warfare Units) plus all the support crew and the DEVGRU. SEAL Teams 1, 3, 5 and 7 -- 1st NAVSPECWARGRU -- operate from Coronado, CA (obviously they'd have had to move, because it doesn't appear CFS has their own SEALs...) and SEAL Teams 2, 4, and 8 -- 2nd NAVSPECWARGRU -- operate from Little Creek, VA (no idea what nation that'd be in in the 2060s). It's easy to see how CAS might have held on to one NSWG and UCAS on to the other. The real question is who got to keep the DEVGRU (former SEAL Team 6). BTW, which has 1st SFOD-Delta? I'm sure they both have Special Forces and Rangers, as well as all the Marine units. And less-on-topic, does CIA exist and which country has it? Those Special Activities Divisions would fit a Shadowrun campaing extremely well. |
It was my assumption that UCAS would likely hold onto DEVGRU and Delta, as well most of SOCOM (though I'd imagine there'dbe a deal cut with the CAS for advisors to assemble a similar organization, CAS-side), regardless of location.
As for the CIA, it's pretty much gone. I believe the CAS has something else and UCAS scrapped it and replaced with the Consular Operations, which is basically the CIA with more money and no Congressional Oversight. Which is kind of sweet and kind of creepy at the same time.
ConsOps has a pleasant ring, but it's unfortunately not a stunning name.
On a tangential note, I still eagerly await the day that we get a real life military unit that calls thesmelves Ghosts.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| It was my assumption that UCAS would likely hold onto DEVGRU and Delta, as well most of SOCOM (though I'd imagine there'd be a deal cut with the CAS for advisors to assemble a similar organization, CAS-side), regardless of location. |
Not sure, but I distinctly remember someone- Raygun of Tzeentch I think it was- mentioning that most of the special forces bases and facilities were located in either what would be the NAN/California territory or in the CAS. With the fact that the military split so they'd likely have a good solid core of professionals and that they'd have the training facilities, I'd see the CAS as being better off than the UCAS in this respect actually.
| QUOTE |
| As for the CIA, it's pretty much gone. I believe the CAS has something else and UCAS scrapped it and replaced with the Consular Operations, which is basically the CIA with more money and no Congressional Oversight. Which is kind of sweet and kind of creepy at the same time. |
Uh no, the CIA are still very much alive, kicking and operational AFAIK. I know that Aztlan says something about Consular Operations and this stuff but I don't think they ever came up again. The CIA though has come up in several Third Edition sourcebooks though so I'm more inclined to go with them.
Well, like AE mentioned, the SEALs are based out of Coronado, which is in Aztlan; and Little Creek, which is in Virginia (as opposed to North Virginia, which is UCAS) and thus CAS. Meanwhile, AFSOC is in Hurlburt Field (CAS), SOCOM is in Tampa (CAS), ASOC in North Carolina (CAS), so... There are SOCOM units not in the CAS or NAN or Aztlan (Ranger Batallions at Ft. Lewis and Ft. Campbell, Ky; 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Ft. Lewis, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Ft. Campbell, Ky.; whatever Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command Reserve units are based in the UCAS; the 160th SOAR at Ft. Campbell; 193d Special Operations Wing in the Penn. ANG, and 106th Rescue Wing in the New York ANG).
But what matters is that after the Treaty of Richmond, servicemembers were given the option of which government they wanted to serve, and they split up. Between active duty and all inactive and retired personnel in both countries, I don't believe it would be hard to recompose those forces in a new location. Remember, the UCAS still owns Guantanamo Bay and Roosevelt Roads in Puerto Rico, and they could move operations down there, even if at a cost to pay off Ares for the privilege (like it'd be the first time a contractor had the U.S. by the short hairs).
And yes, the CIA still exists. ConsOps was mentioned in Aztlan in a document which may or may not have been real, validated by a shadowposter who may or may not have been telling the truth. Either way, the same shadowposter did not even insinuate the demise of the CIA. He merely stated that it got too bureaucratically top-heavy, which at the time was reflective of real life. SoNA mentions the Company a lot. But another point to make is that ConsOps is basically a HUMINT operation, which the CIA would and does still run out of the Directorate of Operations, and specifically some paramilitary activities are tasked out of the Special Activities Division. Likewise, the DIA (which is also SR canon) operates all DoD HUMINT programs.
As for the Ghosts--that's just a nickname for the Bratach something, "Black Banners" (which has another name I can't recall ATM). In which case, I imagine there is a unit somewhere calling themselves that. It's a big military.
Raygun has pages listing canon Intelligence Agencies HERE.
But what matters is that after the Treaty of Richmond, servicemembers were given the option of which government they wanted to serve, and they split up. Between active duty and all inactive and retired personnel in both countries, I don't believe it would be hard to recompose those forces in a new location. Remember, the UCAS still owns Guantanamo Bay and Roosevelt Roads in Puerto Rico, and they could move operations down there, even if at a cost to pay off Ares for the privilege (like it'd be the first time a contractor had the U.S. by the short hairs).
And yes, the CIA still exists. ConsOps was mentioned in Aztlan in a document which may or may not have been real, validated by a shadowposter who may or may not have been telling the truth. Either way, the same shadowposter did not even insinuate the demise of the CIA. He merely stated that it got too bureaucratically top-heavy, which at the time was reflective of real life. SoNA mentions the Company a lot. But another point to make is that ConsOps is basically a HUMINT operation, which the CIA would and does still run out of the Directorate of Operations, and specifically some paramilitary activities are tasked out of the Special Activities Division. Likewise, the DIA (which is also SR canon) operates all DoD HUMINT programs.
As for the Ghosts--that's just a nickname for the Bratach something, "Black Banners" (which has another name I can't recall ATM). In which case, I imagine there is a unit somewhere calling themselves that. It's a big military.
Raygun has pages listing canon Intelligence Agencies HERE.
i honestly can't see the Starship Troopers idea working. it sounds nice, but even Heinlein himself as much admitted that the only real reason his idea worked was because he wrote it that way. very, very, few people join the military with the intention of staying in for the full 20+ years--you wouldn't have enough officers if you made everybody who wanted to be one sign up for a full lifetime tour right off the bat.
A military lifer? Its not an uncommon phenomenon in the States -- or at least, it wasn't in years past.
The US military, in its wisdom, started weeding out the more expendable ranks if the soldiers filling those positions didn't get promoted at a specified rate.
-Siege
The US military, in its wisdom, started weeding out the more expendable ranks if the soldiers filling those positions didn't get promoted at a specified rate.
-Siege
It's one thing to get in and then find you like it enough to stay. To be 18 years old and decide that this is what you want to do for the rest of your life with no option of changing course is entirely other. That is simply insane to expect realistically, and Heinlein's right: it only worked because he got to say so.
As for ConsOps, my mistake. I got that information second hand, anyway.
And anyway, a real Ghosts unit would also need to be special forces and have thermoptic camo, so I guess my hopes are a little unrealistic within the next few years. Ah well. Can dream.
As for ConsOps, my mistake. I got that information second hand, anyway.
And anyway, a real Ghosts unit would also need to be special forces and have thermoptic camo, so I guess my hopes are a little unrealistic within the next few years. Ah well. Can dream.
Tir Tairngire uses their Ghosts as a legitimate, sanctioned hit squad anyway, but I guess calling them special operations doesn't hurt the image any.
And you don't need thermoptic camo to be a Ghost. If you're dumb enough to be seen, you got no business being in specops. You ruin the whole DADT (Don't Ask, Don't Tell) factor involved in their usage.
And you don't need thermoptic camo to be a Ghost. If you're dumb enough to be seen, you got no business being in specops. You ruin the whole DADT (Don't Ask, Don't Tell) factor involved in their usage.
Hey, I said real. I know about the Tir Ghosts, but they're fake. 'Sides, they don't even have enough style toback up the name.
And the thermoptic camo was a joke, though I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it used, no pun intended.
And the thermoptic camo was a joke, though I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it used, no pun intended.
Course they don't have style. Silly keebs.
Anyway, a real group called the Ghosts? They're probably out there. Like someone said, it's a big military.
And if you ever find yourself somehow able to see thermoptics being used and wasn't immediately shot or buried away in some military prison for the rest of your natural life, sign me up for some. I got a few things that only light bending stuff like that can help me do.
Anyway, a real group called the Ghosts? They're probably out there. Like someone said, it's a big military.
And if you ever find yourself somehow able to see thermoptics being used and wasn't immediately shot or buried away in some military prison for the rest of your natural life, sign me up for some. I got a few things that only light bending stuff like that can help me do.
| QUOTE (CardboardArmor @ Apr 12 2004, 01:31 AM) |
| Tir Tairngire uses their Ghosts as a legitimate, sanctioned hit squad anyway, but I guess calling them special operations doesn't hurt the image any. |
Well, first of all they are Special Forces. The same can be said about any special operations force, but that is not their exclusive purpose.
In TT they were described as being an all-purpose special operations force inside and outside of the Tir, playing SWAT cops (in TT, but not in SoNA) and also engaging in unconventional warfare. They have been suggested to be training in the Caribbean to operate inside Aztlan against the government and Aztechnology, and they are deployed around the world to further TT strategic national security interests. In SoNA... Well, the coverage is lessened. I prefer not to say much else about that.
Secondly, the same unit is referred to in four different terms in SoNA: The Spirit Warriors ("Meraerth ke'Tolo") in a subheading to the whole group of Paladins, Special Forces, "Ghosts," and (the conventional SF), as Black Banners ("Bratach Falan"). There are also White Banners ("Bratach Gheal") bodyguards.
They've been protrayed in numerous supplements in varying power ranges (from weirdly weak in Super Tuesday! to insanely powerful in Corporate Punishment), which makes more sense in the context of a power level curve that would exist inside the organization from domestic to international tasks.
I think having riggers drive tanks would actually be of benefit to an SR army. Right now it takes, what, a 4-person crew to run an Abrams? With a VCR, you could cut that down to two, or even just one person to run all the tank's systems. (Two if you still have manual loading of the main gun, one for an auto-loader.)
I don't see remote-controlled tanks or jets being the primary military strength, because of the possibilities for jamming or natural radio interference. Wouldn't do much good to have your bomber get stuck on autopilot while you spent 10 minutes trying to re-establish control from your base. For short-range drones, it makes more sense.
As to personal weapons, I'd say carbines and SMGs will become part of the standard arsenal over the next 10 years or so, since house-to-house fighting is becoming the name of the game. ARs and HMGs will still exist, but you use the weapon appropriate to the situation. And ARs are just too unwieldy in CQB.
Also, keep in mind that the military will almost certainly have combat mages, at least as frequently as you have other specialists in units now. That adds worlds of flexibility to your fire-team.
I don't see remote-controlled tanks or jets being the primary military strength, because of the possibilities for jamming or natural radio interference. Wouldn't do much good to have your bomber get stuck on autopilot while you spent 10 minutes trying to re-establish control from your base. For short-range drones, it makes more sense.
As to personal weapons, I'd say carbines and SMGs will become part of the standard arsenal over the next 10 years or so, since house-to-house fighting is becoming the name of the game. ARs and HMGs will still exist, but you use the weapon appropriate to the situation. And ARs are just too unwieldy in CQB.
Also, keep in mind that the military will almost certainly have combat mages, at least as frequently as you have other specialists in units now. That adds worlds of flexibility to your fire-team.
There is a pretty substantial debate over drones versus traditional vehicles versus rigger-driven/piloted vehicles.
Lock 'n' load and pick a side.
-Siege
Lock 'n' load and pick a side.
-Siege
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