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TinkerGnome
Battletac would probably placed in the hands of a select few, given the obscene cost of the stuff (on a squad level, on a battalion level, or even platoon level, it might work okay, with the receivers being in the hands of fire teams, etc, instead of individuals).

I'd expect that the cyber is mostly restricted to NCOs and officiers in the general forces (people who're more likely to be career military). Low rank enlisted wouldn't have the stuff because they're not a great investment (since a fair percentage might be the college loan types). I do have to say that if a ganger can aford boosted reflexes 1, though, I don't see it as being much of a stretch to extend the same to most troopers.
Siege
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 3 2003, 08:56 PM)
This is assuming they move to the "Rapid Reaction Force" model and away from the current "Let's be prepared to fight a WW2 scale land battle with either the USSR or China" model.

Well, if you think about, wouldn't they revert to this even more? Now you've actually got potentially hostile foreign powers on the same continent and right next to them. They'd still most likely cut down some numbers and improve quality of course. But with the state of the UCAS, would there be any real need for large expeditionary forces?

I whole-heartedly believe this, but I have to toss in the disclaimer.

Which means if you want to maintain an effective but smaller force, it's gonna be heavily equipped and well-trained at almost every level.

-Siege

Chodav
Well, this thread got me thinking, and when I think, I usually end up making another character . . . Besides, we've talked so much about what they carry, but they have skills, too.

So, I've been a grunt. What did I learn in four years? Let's use Sum-to-10 with a mundane human, since my GM just fell in love with that chargen system AFTER I made a mundane human using standard priorites . . .

Athletics 4 (I'm inclined to go with some other game designers and lump air assault / rappelling under this category instead of making a skill for it.)
Parachuting 4 (Likely with a military jump specialization.)
Assault Rifles 5 (_____ 7) (Specializing in the particular army's weapon of choice.)
Stealth 4 (Appropriate for Ranger types.)
Heavy Weapons 2 (The Army taught me to use an M-60 and and M-2, but I didn't get to play with them that often.)
Pole Arms 1 (Bayonet 3) (Actually, 3 is excessively high, but I had 50 points to spend.)
Throwing Weapons 1 (Grenades 3) (Contrary to popular belief, the Army does not teach knifefighting. And any idiot who throws a knife loses the knife, which is why smart people don't.)
Unarmed Combat / Wildcat 6 with three manuevers (I was making a Sioux Defense Force guy.)
Ettiquette 4 (Or a military etiquette specialization.)
Biotech 1 (First Aid 3)
Launch Weapons 2 (Like machine guns, I did not get to play with M-203's and AT-4's very often. Personally, I did get to play with the TOW-II a lot, but that was my MOS.)
Navigation 1 (Land Navigation 3)
Small Unit Tactics 2 (Appropriate for an NCO.)
Wilderness Survival 2

Total of 50 points. Some of the ratings are a little high for a grunt, but the character is going to be an ex-Sioux Ranger. For a non-combat-arms soldier, I would halve all the above ratings and add in the appropriate specialty skills, like Gizmo B/R.

For Knowledge skills, you might think about Military History, Laws of War, Logistics, Strategy and Tactics, Military Equipment, Military Organization, Military Politics, and so on. Basically any corp specialization could be applied to the military, too.

Hope this is helpful in some way - I'm enjoying this thread way too much. (It's all the induced flashbacks, I'm sure.)

By the way, as far as cyber goes, I'm buying Boosted Reflexes 1, Dampener, and Flare Compensation. Of course, I like characters who start out "wimpy".
Rev
I think that every military combat pilot, driver, or vehicle gunner is a rigger with vcr 1 being standard for ground combat vehicles, bombers and combat transports, 2 being standard for ground attack aircraft, and 3 being standard for fighter pilots. Even cargo specialists could have vcr-1's. The ability for one soldier to move twice the cargo by using autonav's and switching in to control two different vehicles during the hard parts would be huge.

A vcr 1 is only 12kY + a bunch for surgery. A fair bit of money, but nothing compared to one year of training for a soldier. Give them a vcr and you get either a much more effective force, or you can cut your training time in half to get the same quality.

Canon wise rigger 3 says that tanks are controlled by two riggers. A driver and a gunner.

Fighter planes cost tens of thousands of dollars per flight for training. Pilots must fly frequently for practice. The 100kY or whatever for a vcr-3 is dirt cheap compared to their training costs. If one guy a year doesn't loose his airplane because he had one they would have paid for every implantation in the force that year. In fact I think it is silly that the fighter planes in the books have transparent canope's. The pilot should be lying down in an armored ejection capsule (cockpits are a huge pain for fighter designers and electronics are already the most reliable part of such vehicles and necessary for even basic operation).

Every soldier whos main job is to hold a gun should have a smartlink. Again the smartlink is cheap compared to the training it offsets. Quite possibly they just pressure people into buying their own, but in the end just about everyone who can use one has one. Oh yea datajacks as well. I envision some big com, chem detection, mapping, etc module plugging into the datajack so the radio etc can be external and replacable but hands free. Basically a cord going from your head into your backpack. To some extent an image link makes some sense (using the smartlink component rules). They could throw up maps, plug it into a night vision sensor, etc. Other than that I think it is pretty much all special forces, or personal initiative. The smartlink is one thing that is much better implanted than not.



Actually even today the airforce has a program to enhance its pilots through fairly expensive surgery. That laser vision correction has reached the point where virtually everyone (even people with superior vision, like most pilots) can get better eyesight with the procedure. The air force has some sort of subsidization procedure that makes it thousands of dollars cheaper for pilots to get such surgery.

In fact, given rigger 3 rules about smartlinks for gunnery, vehicle gunners would have partial smartlink systems too (ie not the induction pad).

* all this is meant to apply to higher end military forces like the UCAS, CAS, tir's, etc. Less developed places would find people relatively cheaper than tech.
Siege
Cho -- the US Army was actually debating ending bayonet training as part of standard training. And the amount of toys going into rifles these days means the rifle would be less inclined to survive use as a bludgeoning weapon. Never mind the dangers of a smartgun adapter getting knocked out of alignment.

You might just buy Edged Weapons instead. I'd also suggest a handgun skill of some sort, although I don't know if the Sioux would receive handgun training or not.

-Siege
moosegod
But a bayonent is useable as a knife and a spear. And a carving knife, etc.

It has a reach bonus, and the psychological impact of stabbing things in training shouldn't be underestimated.
Siege
QUOTE (moosegod)
But a bayonent is useable as a knife and a spear. And a carving knife, etc.

It has a reach bonus, and the psychological impact of stabbing things in training shouldn't be underestimated.

I don't disagree -- this is the same braintrust that decided to go with a 9mm Beretta as a standard-issue sidearm.

I'd even argue that standard infantry should receive more training in both unarmed combat and knife fighting, but that's just me.

I think knives should remain standard issue to all soldiers, but the modern assault rifle has a lot more bells and whistles than, say, the M-1 Garand which was a basic, no-frills weapon that lent itself amazingly well to clubbing, butting and stabbing.

Especially when you start talking to collapsing stocks and high-end electronics like smartlinks. Hell, trying to fit a bayonet over an M-16/M203 combo would be complicated at best.

-Siege
moosegod
It also gives a sort of primative, "we don't know how to fight in the 21st century" feeling to the weapon.

I think more knife fighting would be good, especially with the prevalence of city fighting we're going to be seeing.
Chodav
Random thoughts:

An M-203 cannot be fitted with a bayonet at all.

An M-4 can, but it's absurd, given it's short length. ohplease.gif

When the Marine Corps adopted the Mossberg 500 shotgun, one of the modifications they insisted on was a bayonet lug. cool.gif

I agree about knocking a smartlink out of alignment, but I'm buying him a FN HAR with a laser sight. Remember - I like "wimpy" characters. And I buy skills to represent what the characters have learned, not what they'll use in the shadows.

I was in the Army over ten years ago, so I got to stab things. biggrin.gif

Stabbing things and throwing people around is very fun and builds self-confidence, even through the training is one step from useless in real life.

Infantryman don't receive handgun training unless they are going to be mortarmen, anti-tank gunners, machine gunners, etc. (I was an anti-tank gunner.)

Knife-fighting is over-rated and horribly dangerous. Many edged weapons warriors from back in the pre-gunpowder days cut each other as much as the enemy. It was an accepted fact of combat.

The Reach of the bayoneted rifle and the multiple uses for the bayonet were part of the decision-making process, but it was mostly what I feel "standard" training would be like. Maybe the Sioux would have switched from Pole Arms (Bayonet) to Edged Weapons (Knife) - it's something to think about.

The Army does not currently issue knives and has not for many, MANY years. (Pre-Vietnam.) The Marine Corps also does not issue knives. Most commanders in the Army disallow personal knives in their soldiers' kits for (stupid) safety reasons. Most Marines buy a K-BAR striaght out of boot camp and carry it proudly every time they go into the field. There's something to be said for military traditions.

The current U.S. bayonet, the M-9, is issued to be used as a tool more than a weapon. It is twice as thick as its predecessor. I shudder to think just how much wrist strength it would take to push the M-9 into a person. Knife-fighting is over-rated - did I mention that?

The M-9 (and scabbard) has a wire cutter that works well if you have strong hands, a saw, a slotted screwdriver, a Phillips screwdriver, and God-knows-what-else.

Nothing in this post should be construed as me arguing or disageeeing with Siege - I don't think he and I have disagreed on a single thing yet . . . which means we're both equally nuts. wobble.gif

The Beretta sucks in a major way. Damned politicians were trying to make French friends in N.A.T.O. Fabrique Nationale makes nice toys, but Beretta . . .
moosegod
Part of the 9mm decision is to act like we don't own NATO.

Anyways, do you have a suggestion for a replacement to knife-fighting in a CQB enviroment? I agree with the incredable danger inherent in knife-fighting, but w.o a replacement, what else can we do?
Chodav
1) Avoid CQB like the contagious disease it is.

2) Learn weapon retention skills so that you don't lose your handgun and can defend yourself with that if possible.

3) Learn unarmed skills that are less likely to hurt you in the course of your efforts to hurt the other guy.

4) Take the overconfident schmuck's knife from him and stick him with it. rotfl.gif

I'm teasing. There are no good suggestions. A law enforcement officer is best served by learning to talk to people - Billy Bad Ass attitudes are VERY counter-productive on the street. A soldier is best served by an integrated fire team, combined arms support, and LOTS of claymores and frags. (I love things that go boom. I got to be a combat engineer before I was a tank-killer. Nevermind the fact that I'm deaf now - I had a LOT of fun!)
Dogsoup
QUOTE (Chodav)
...and stick him with it.

Preferably in the forehead.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (moosegod)
Anyways, do you have a suggestion for a replacement to knife-fighting in a CQB enviroment? I agree with the incredable danger inherent in knife-fighting, but w.o a replacement, what else can we do?

It's called a gun. biggrin.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Chodav @ Dec 4 2003, 09:17 PM)
The Beretta sucks in a major way.  Damned politicians were trying to make French friends in N.A.T.O.  Fabrique Nationale makes nice toys, but Beretta . . .

... Is Italian. FN is Belgian.

Damn French. They're troops are too good for NATO, so NATO's too good for Paris. Sounds about right. I don't know who had more contempt for de Gaulles when we discussed it in class--me, or the spaniard who still considered it an honor that Spain was let in.

I was looking at the VCR discussion, and I figure I'd toss this back into it--Why have pilots at all? Wouldn't a fleet of UCAVs with one pilot in the captain's chair be as effective? A Pave Low pilot would benefit a great deal if they had a VCR to do treetop flying.

Also, if the military's going to be smaller and better trained, what about factoring in magical warfare concepts for mundanes, and how knives are more useful vs. spirits than guns.

QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 3 2003, 08:20 PM)

The First Gulf War demonstrated the capability of a smaller number of better tanks against larger numbers of inferior ones.

And the second one demonstrated that even an Abrams is suceptible to IEDs.

But to answer a question of M1A1 vs. F/A-22 costs. the Abrams costs about $4,300,000. The Raptor was, according to the DOD, $142,600,000. Each.
Siege
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 3 2003, 08:20 PM)

The First Gulf War demonstrated the capability of a smaller number of better tanks against larger numbers of inferior ones.

And the second one demonstrated that even an Abrams is suceptible to IEDs.

But to answer a question of M1A1 vs. F/A-22 costs. the Abrams costs about $4,300,000. The Raptor was, according to the DOD, $142,600,000. Each.

Nothing is kill-proof, but given the tightening constraints of a smaller military, governments of the future will invest a little more money into the tankers to ensure that 4 million has a higher chance of rolling back home.

Roundabout way of justifying riggers in vehicles.

-Siege
Siege
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (moosegod @ Dec 5 2003, 03:23 AM)
Anyways, do you have a suggestion for a replacement to knife-fighting in a CQB enviroment?  I agree with the incredable danger inherent in knife-fighting, but w.o a replacement, what else can we do?

It's called a gun. biggrin.gif

Knife fighting may be dangerous, but so is getting shot.

CQB isn't anyone's idea of fun, but for the envisioned urban environments of the future, a soldier is going to have to be prepared for the possibility of engaging his enemy in such close quarters that bringing an assault rifle to bear will be exceedingly difficult.

In an ideal situation, a soldier will just shoot his enemy and move on. Nobody would throw down a functioning rifle just to enter into unarmed melee -- the problem is, the choice may not always be up to him.

The current US Army manual on hth combatives makes some mention of using weapons, improvised and formal -- as to whether or not it's covered in boot or infantry school, I don't know.

-Siege

Siege
QUOTE (Chodav)
Random thoughts:

An M-203 cannot be fitted with a bayonet at all.

That's my point -- the M-16/M203 combo can't accept a bayonet. That was intended as an example of an assault rifle with accessories that would impede the effective use of a bayonet.

If you look at the proposed OICW with the massive electronics suite, you won't want to be swinging that thing like a baseball bat.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
And like someone said, putting a bayonet on an M4 is a waste. The M29s for most riflemen will be the length of an M4 if not shorter, only dedicated marksmen and automatic riflemen will have weapons as long as the M16. All that makes it extremely unlikely that bayonet fighting would a part of a standard grunts training.

But like people have been saying, most people would still be carrying knives; perhaps for reasons other than combat, but they will. Giving them some rudimentary training in how to use those knives in combat wouldn't do any harm.
Luke Hardison
I like the point about anti-magic tactics and that reviving the old knife. If nothing else, the psychological effects of having a knife to draw as your bullets bounce off that spirit would be worth it, and might steel thier nerve enough to fight one to the death.

As for H2H combat in today's Army, the only schools left that teach any unarmed combat are Ranger School (where unarmed is emphasized as a potential silent takedown option) and SCUBA School (which teaches underwater fighting, where your gun is of little use). The Army still incorporates fugal stick fighting into Basic Training, but it is for purposes of fostering competivness and "killing spirit", not for any practical reasons. The Navy teaches underwater unarmed fighting techniques to anyone dive proficient, and simple H2H instruction is still (and hopefully always will be) a part of Marine Corps infantry school.
Siege
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And like someone said, putting a bayonet on an M4 is a waste. The M29s for most riflemen will be the length of an M4 if not shorter, only dedicated marksmen and automatic riflemen will have weapons as long as the M16. All that makes it extremely unlikely that bayonet fighting would a part of a standard grunts training.

But like people have been saying, most people would still be carrying knives; perhaps for reasons other than combat, but they will. Giving them some rudimentary training in how to use those knives in combat wouldn't do any harm.

I dunno, it would take some serious nerve to pull a knife and rush something like a Spirit.

Imagine watching something manifest, shrug off bullets and then listen to your CO tell you that your knife will do more damage than your assault rifle.

Yeah, that would be my reaction too. grinbig.gif

Seriously, it's a good point. Spirits being a reason to revisit melee combat skills.

-Siege
6thDragon
I think a reasonable amount of cyber would be common for advanced combat arms units (Marines, Rangers, airborne, SF) I would assume WIred reflexes:1, Dermal Armor, bone lacing, commo implants, muscle replacement, cyber eyes, and possible some cheap bioware: platelet factories, enhanced articulation. I think some individuals would also spring for the sleep regulator themselves. I can think of many times when I was in the Marines this would have come in very handy. The military would undoubtable carefully screen all individual purchases. Any type of weapon would be out of the question. It would violate the Geneva Convention and be a safety issue (I've seen too many drunk Marines on weekend getting in fights with just about anyone you can imagine).
My personal military background as a Marines Embassy Guard leads me to believe that there would be positions out there that would be to valuable to have an unaugmented person in.
I'd agree that VCR:1 would be common for tankers, probably 2 for combat helicopter pilots, and 3 for combat aircraft pilots. Especially when one considers the cost of training the pilot, and the cost of the vehicle. I doubt cargo pilots would receive more than VCR:1.
Smartlinks would definitely be standard issue for all infantryman.
I think bone lacing would be invaluable for airborne units because of the number of ankle and knee problems that develope.
I think the military would have a purchasing program and would also provide cyber as enlistment, reenlistment bonuses.
While the military would be made leaner and meaner, I think the military in SR time would also have a much larger reserve and national guard, just incase a war were to break out.
I also believe the Wildcat martial art skill would be mimicked by other militaries. Hell, as I left the Marine Corps they were adopting a new martial arts system for the Marines. I don't see why Rangers and such wouldn't pick up on it.
There is no way a bayonet would fit with a underbarrel grenade launcher. A assault rifle is still limited to one underbarrel mount.
Chodav
Having read through the posts and reread SoNA's section on the Sioux, I'm inclined to believe that Edged Weapons (Knives) is a better bet than Pole Arms (Bayonet). Oh, well, goodbye Reach bonus . . .

On the subject on CQB / H2H, something I forgot to mention when responding to the alternatives for knife-fighting - there is an approach called 'environmental impact combat'. It can basically be summed up as, "Don't waste your knuckles and skin hitting the opponent - propel him into hard inanimate objects instead." I used it quite a bit on the street - few things will change someone's mind about fighting with the police faster than putting their ribcage into a telephone pole and knocking the wind out of them. It also doesn't leave marks . . .

And, no, I'm not a brutal sadistic bastard. But if you're gonna fight, you'd better fight to win.
capt20
From what I've heard, the Marines are requiring... what is it, a brown belt in a martial arts. I wouldn't expect much less from the Marine Corps. I beleive the Army still trains with basic unarmed combat, and I think were forgetting the MP's people. smile.gif

As for knives, I think that it would have the same effect as a side arm sitting in your hand when your in a foxhole. Might make you feel a little better. So will that trauma patch in the handle of a survival knife when you get shot for the 7th time.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (6thDragon)
I think a reasonable amount of cyber would be common for advanced combat arms units (Marines, Rangers, airborne, SF) I would assume WIred reflexes:1, Dermal Armor, bone lacing, commo implants, muscle replacement, cyber eyes, and possible some cheap bioware: platelet factories, enhanced articulation.

Wired-1 + Dermal-1 + Plastic BoneLace + Headware Radio-6 + MuscleReplace-1 + Cybereyes (L-L, Flash, Thermo) + Platelet + Artwink + Smart + Datajack = 187,000 nuyen.gif plus all the surgeries involved. No way every marine would have all that put in. That's like giving everyone a HMMWV, a Mk19, loads of ammo, all the electronics you can pack into the HMMWV, 3 suits of armor and 10 replacement SAPI plates and would never get them back.

And a lot of that stuff is not very cost-effective either. Especially the Dermal Plating, Muscle Replacement, which give rather insignificant bonuses considering the price (it's cheaper to tell the troopers to WORK OUT rather than pay tens of thousands to replace their muscles). Wired-1 and Artwinkulation are great pieces of ware, no doubt, but installing them into a grunt costs well over 100,000 nuyen.gif and I don't think that's going to happen with such huge forces like the Marine Corps.

Rangers, Special Forces, SEALs, Recon Marines, SFOD-Delta -- those kinds of units might have Wired and Artwinkulation. Dermal and Muscle Replacement I doubt any military units would use. Plastic Bonelacing just might be used in some situations, but I doubt it. Headware radios aren't required, when you can just use an external radio with a trode net and transducer, or through a datajack if you have to. Platelet factories are high maintenance, and have unpleasant side effects (there'd be hundreds of troopers in the field getting embolisms.
moosegod
Look at the 'ware on my guys...

www.geocities.com/siouxwildcats/index.html

That's the kind of stuff I envision as true spec-ops.
Austere Emancipator
That's pretty specialized and non-standardized stuff. Which is pretty much what would be expected of an extreme special operations force -- I'm guessing that the Wildcats are pretty much like 1st SFOD-Delta, in that they are a very small unit that takes the very best out of regular specops units and trains them onto a whole new level. Guys like that are a lot like shadowrunners in many ways.

But let's keep up the discussion on grunt-ware, too, since that's a lot harder to figure out.
moosegod
Looking at the discussion on Lone Star, I think that many men who enlisted for several years would get a smartlink.

Also, Heavy Weapons would probably get one as well.
Rev
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
I was looking at the VCR discussion, and I figure I'd toss this back into it--Why have pilots at all? Wouldn't a fleet of UCAVs with one pilot in the captain's chair be as effective? A Pave Low pilot would benefit a great deal if they had a VCR to do treetop flying.

Realistically I suspect that the era of the military combat plane with a pilot is already over (not that I am any sort of expert).

However in shadowrun encryption is so weak and jamming so strong compared to communication that remote control isn't nearly as reliable as it is in real life.
Siege
QUOTE (6thDragon)

I also believe the Wildcat martial art skill would be mimicked by other militaries. Hell, as I left the Marine Corps they were adopting a new martial arts system for the Marines. I don't see why Rangers and such wouldn't pick up on it.
There is no way a bayonet would fit with a underbarrel grenade launcher. A assault rifle is still limited to one underbarrel mount.

The Sioux Wildcat style could easily be renamed "Krav Maga" or something equally linear and no nonsense brutality.

The CC by no means listed all the currently existing martial arts in the world today, never mind 2060.

-Siege
6thDragon
QUOTE (6thDragon)
I think a reasonable amount of cyber would be common for advanced combat arms units (Marines, Rangers, airborne, SF) I would assume WIred reflexes:1, Dermal Armor, bone lacing, commo implants, muscle replacement, cyber eyes, and possible some cheap bioware: platelet factories, enhanced articulation.

[/QUOTE] Austere Emancipator

Wired-1 + Dermal-1 + Plastic BoneLace + Headware Radio-6 + MuscleReplace-1 + Cybereyes (L-L, Flash, Thermo) + Platelet + Artwink + Smart + Datajack = 187,000 plus all the surgeries involved. No way every marine would have all that put in. That's like giving everyone a HMMWV, a Mk19, loads of ammo, all the electronics you can pack into the HMMWV, 3 suits of armor and 10 replacement SAPI plates and would never get them back.

And a lot of that stuff is not very cost-effective either. Especially the Dermal Plating, Muscle Replacement, which give rather insignificant bonuses considering the price (it's cheaper to tell the troopers to WORK OUT rather than pay tens of thousands to replace their muscles). Wired-1 and Artwinkulation are great pieces of ware, no doubt, but installing them into a grunt costs well over 100,000 and I don't think that's going to happen with such huge forces like the Marine Corps.






I'm not saying every Marine would have the entire list. I just think many special duties would include some of them: Force Recon, FAST Company, HMX-1 (Presidential Helicopter Squardon), Presidential Security (Camp David Guards), Embassy Guards, and possible several others.
Yes it would be incredible expensive to outfit the entire Marine Corps with all this, but I thing some from that list would at least be frequent with vetran special duty personnel.
Austere Emancipator
No more Force Recon. frown.gif And it was such a cool name for a type of unit...

That FAST thing was new to me. You can add that to the list of possible units to have the high-end ware. Presidential security units would certainly have all kinds of toys available. And I somehow managed to miss the "common" bit from your original message, so it was all rather moot. I still think ware like Dermal Armor and Muscle Replacement would be extremely rare in military units.

Are embassy guards that special? I've never even though about that. I've just thought they are basically like MPs. You live and learn.
Siege
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (6thDragon)
I think a reasonable amount of cyber would be common for advanced combat arms units (Marines, Rangers, airborne, SF) I would assume WIred reflexes:1, Dermal Armor, bone lacing, commo implants, muscle replacement, cyber eyes, and possible some cheap bioware: platelet factories, enhanced articulation.

Wired-1 + Dermal-1 + Plastic BoneLace + Headware Radio-6 + MuscleReplace-1 + Cybereyes (L-L, Flash, Thermo) + Platelet + Artwink + Smart + Datajack = 187,000 nuyen.gif plus all the surgeries involved. No way every marine would have all that put in. That's like giving everyone a HMMWV, a Mk19, loads of ammo, all the electronics you can pack into the HMMWV, 3 suits of armor and 10 replacement SAPI plates and would never get them back.

And a lot of that stuff is not very cost-effective either. Especially the Dermal Plating, Muscle Replacement, which give rather insignificant bonuses considering the price (it's cheaper to tell the troopers to WORK OUT rather than pay tens of thousands to replace their muscles). Wired-1 and Artwinkulation are great pieces of ware, no doubt, but installing them into a grunt costs well over 100,000 nuyen.gif and I don't think that's going to happen with such huge forces like the Marine Corps.

Rangers, Special Forces, SEALs, Recon Marines, SFOD-Delta -- those kinds of units might have Wired and Artwinkulation. Dermal and Muscle Replacement I doubt any military units would use. Plastic Bonelacing just might be used in some situations, but I doubt it. Headware radios aren't required, when you can just use an external radio with a trode net and transducer, or through a datajack if you have to. Platelet factories are high maintenance, and have unpleasant side effects (there'd be hundreds of troopers in the field getting embolisms.

Installing all that into a grunt would be one hell of a vat job.

I agree that SEALs and similar heavy-duty spec ops would be "wired until they vibrate", particularly since they're already described so in canon material.

And probably muscle augment rather than replacement, IMHO.

Austere and I seem to have similar views on external gear (yah trodes! grinbig.gif), but let me toss out what I think would be minimum issue for the grunts of tomorrow, not just reserve and Guard units.

Smartlink (.5, 2,500)
Datajack (.2, 1,000)
Subdermal speakers (.1, 650)
Subvocal mic (.1, 850)
Image link (.2, 1,600)
Chipjack (.2, 1,000)
Lowlight retinal (.2, 3,000)
Flare comps (.1, 2,000)

To the grand total of 12,600 and 1.6 of essence, tomorrow's soldier can:

Load lingua-softs or maps, bypassing language barriers
Interface with radios, GPS and orientation systems as well as chem sniffers
Receive radio transmissions silently and make them quietly
Hyper-accurate in close quarters with their smartlinked weapons

The reason I use the datajack/image link and not just a trode unit, despite my being a strong advocate are the two basics: it takes three combat turns to adjust properly and can become uncomfortable over long periods. Which means pity the poor Guardsmen who don't get all these nifties and do use trode systems.

I'm still of mixed opinion on Level 1 boosted, but here's my basic list.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
That looks good. Though wouldn't you be able to get rid of the Eye Display part of the Smartlink, so the essence would drop to 1.5 and price to 12,300?

I hear you on the Boosted. Sure +1 init die is a great advantage, and 15,000 isn't that expensive, but never getting it out again... I think I'll probably go with no Western army (except perhaps for Aztlan and Aztech) using Boosted, and not trouble myself further with that.

At some point I was considering giving SWATs and the like Boosted-1. I'll have to think that through again.
moosegod
Image link comes with a standard smartgun set, IIRC.
Siege
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That looks good. Though wouldn't you be able to get rid of the Eye Display part of the Smartlink, so the essence would drop to 1.5 and price to 12,300?

Oooh, good call!

-Siege
moosegod
You could just give them a headware radio and give them comm abilites, drop the subdermal and subvocal gear.

I have no idea what that'd do for cost and Essence, thoug.
Siege
QUOTE (moosegod @ Dec 5 2003, 07:12 PM)
You could just give them a headware radio and give them comm abilites, drop the subdermal and subvocal gear.

I have no idea what that'd do for cost and Essence, thoug.

I didn't go for the headware radio because upgrading and tweaking comm channels, encryption/decryption and ECM issues would be amazingly difficult.

Compared to an external radio that can be modified would be a major plus -- additionally, the radio can be shared among squadmate if necessary and passed on to new troopers.

I was aiming for the lowest common denominator for troopers to be as effective as possible.

Sorry, I'm rambling -- low blood sugar.

-Siege

Edit: And the subvocal mic/speakers is a lot cheaper than the headware radio. grinbig.gif

Edit 2: is should be are -- bad typo
Austere Emancipator
It'd raise the Essence cost by 0.55. To make it worthwhile, the headware radio would have to of a VERY high rating, so it wouldn't have to be replaced by an external radio every time there's lots of communication or someone has to communicate at long ranges. Rating 10 radio gives you a 30km range in open terrain, I guess that'd be enough. That'd raise the price by 18,500. The new totals would be 2.05 Essence, 30,800 nuyen.

I personally think they wouldn't use headware radios. A portable radio is cheaper, can be upgraded when required, can be extremely light and small (Micro-Transceivers have Conc 10, Weight negligible and are half the price of headware radios) and is just as quick and silent to use as a headware radio with the subdermal speakers and subvocal mic.

[Edit]And what Siege said. Encryption/Decryption and ECM are extremely good reasons not to get headware radios. Didn't even think of that...[/Edit]
Rev
I find something of an inconsistency in the rules with regard to subvocal microphones, image links, and datajacks.

If you control a vehicle through a datajack you go into captains chair mode which is described as floating control panels and buttons all around you that do things like display the images the vehicles sensors are seeing. Similarly you can issue commands through the datajack. When jacked in you can speak, hear, etc through it. This means that a datajack alone is capable of displaying images (probably by writing straight to your visual cortex), and of overriding or adding to normal sensory input.

Seems like subvocal mikes, image links, subdermal speakers, etc are entirely redundant to anyone with a datajack.
Siege
QUOTE (Rev)
I find something of an inconsistency in the rules with regard to subvocal microphones, image links, and datajacks.

If you control a vehicle through a datajack you go into captains chair mode which is described as floating control panels and buttons all around you that do things like display the images the vehicles sensors are seeing. Similarly you can issue commands through the datajack. When jacked in you can speak, hear, etc through it. This means that a datajack alone is capable of displaying images (probably by writing straight to your visual cortex), and of overriding or adding to normal sensory input.

Seems like subvocal mikes, image links, subdermal speakers, etc are entirely redundant to anyone with a datajack.

You would think, but so far there hasn't been a thorough canon explanation of the gear and how it works or how it mixes with other pieces.

Check out some of the discussions about trodes, simsense and bypassing image links.

This idea has been kicked nearly to death. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Dogsoup
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (Rev @ Dec 5 2003, 08:21 PM)
I find something of an inconsistency in the rules with regard to subvocal microphones, image links, and datajacks.

If you control a vehicle through a datajack you go into captains chair mode which is described as floating control panels and buttons all around you that do things like display the images the vehicles sensors are seeing.  Similarly you can issue commands through the datajack.  When jacked in you can speak, hear, etc through it.  This means that a datajack alone is capable of displaying images (probably by writing straight to your visual cortex), and of overriding or adding to normal sensory input.

Seems like subvocal mikes, image links, subdermal speakers, etc are entirely redundant to anyone with a datajack.

You would think, but so far there hasn't been a thorough canon explanation of the gear and how it works or how it mixes with other pieces.

To each (GM), his own eh?
Siege
QUOTE (Dogsoup)
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (Rev @ Dec 5 2003, 08:21 PM)
I find something of an inconsistency in the rules with regard to subvocal microphones, image links, and datajacks.

If you control a vehicle through a datajack you go into captains chair mode which is described as floating control panels and buttons all around you that do things like display the images the vehicles sensors are seeing.  Similarly you can issue commands through the datajack.  When jacked in you can speak, hear, etc through it.  This means that a datajack alone is capable of displaying images (probably by writing straight to your visual cortex), and of overriding or adding to normal sensory input.

Seems like subvocal mikes, image links, subdermal speakers, etc are entirely redundant to anyone with a datajack.

You would think, but so far there hasn't been a thorough canon explanation of the gear and how it works or how it mixes with other pieces.

To each (GM), his own eh?

Yeah, pretty much.

You can make logical extensions for the application of the tech, but since we're arguing imaginary gear, it can always just not work.

-Siege
6thDragon
I think developed nations of the shadowrun times would offer massive cyber programs as reenlistment bonuses. I think former Marine Corps Commandant General Krulak said it best.."To replace a corporal with four years experience, takes four years." With all the money invested in training and such the military would hate to loose competent personnel. Especially when you consider that many private security companies would love to attract former military types. When I got out of the Marines I was offered a $20,000 reenlistment bonus. If they offer that now, think of what they would offer in SR times; an add the benefit to the military if soldiers opt to get cyber in this way. Also even today the military is already very stratified. The prestigious units get all the funds. Think of the funding the 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger) gets for training and gear compared to the average regiment. Trust me, I spend the majority of my time in the military on embassy duty. The funds given to Marine detachment there is incredible. I know how all units in the military spend money too. They hoard it like little cheapskates until the fiscal year comes close to an end. So I see special units being allotted a large amount of funds for additional cyber upgrades and spending it all in September before the next fiscal year.
This also makes me wander how common physical adepts would be in the militaries of the time. I would think they would instantly be absorbed by the special units. They would probably get a hugh signing bonus too. biggrin.gif
FlakJacket
For SpecOps, I'd say that the WD40 crew would probably be outnumbered by the adepts. I could see them hoovering up as many as possible that have relevant skills and powers.
Utahraptor
On cyberware and gear, personelly, I don't think Headware Radio's would be used. THe personel comm system is alot more relible, with higher jamming and frequency memory.

Now this is my two-cents and wishful thinking

Personelly, I think Riggers and deckers in the field would get certain gear, what I call a EES, or External Electronics Suite. This would most likely be issued in two versions, one for RO (Remote Operations) and another for IW (Information Warfare). Most likely it would consit of a modular RC or cyberdeck, conected to a personell communit with an external transducer. All of it would be worn on the back, and connected through to a datajack. It would be upgraded as nessacry for various missions.
Fortune
QUOTE (moosegod)
Image link comes with a standard smartgun set, IIRC.

No, you're thinking of the Retinal Display, which only adds a targeting aid (such as a dot or crosshairs) to a person's vision. An Image Link, or even Display Link, is more advanced, allowing a person to view images and data respectively, while also fulfilling the role of the Retinal Display.
252
Cyberpirates says that both CAS and UCAS have their own SEAL units. That is right both Countries have SEAL units that are separate from the other. They both kick *** and kick tail.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (252)
Cyberpirates says that both CAS and UCAS have their own SEAL units. That is right both Countries have SEAL units that are separate from the other. They both kick *** and kick tail.

That's not too surprising, considering how many SEALs there are all around the world IRL. Just the combat troops (the actual SEAL Teams) number a total of well over a thousand (~1,000 in the platoons plus all the headquarters and command elements), and then there's a few hundred officers and ratings in the separate command and control elements (Naval Special Warfare Units) plus all the support crew and the DEVGRU.

SEAL Teams 1, 3, 5 and 7 -- 1st NAVSPECWARGRU -- operate from Coronado, CA (obviously they'd have had to move, because it doesn't appear CFS has their own SEALs...) and SEAL Teams 2, 4, and 8 -- 2nd NAVSPECWARGRU -- operate from Little Creek, VA (no idea what nation that'd be in in the 2060s). It's easy to see how CAS might have held on to one NSWG and UCAS on to the other.

The real question is who got to keep the DEVGRU (former SEAL Team 6). BTW, which has 1st SFOD-Delta? I'm sure they both have Special Forces and Rangers, as well as all the Marine units. And less-on-topic, does CIA exist and which country has it? Those Special Activities Divisions would fit a Shadowrun campaing extremely well.
moosegod
The CAS has a super intelligence group (name I forget), one for Corp work, and the military intelligence.

I think that both nations would have much the same forces. Even if one side didn't get a group, I think they'd recreate it.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (moosegod)
I think that both nations would have much the same forces. Even if one side didn't get a group, I think they'd recreate it.

Yes, certainly, but it still interests me who got what, if only so that I can really cause some major panic in the players when I drop the name of the unit that's after them...
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