In all honesty, I know of two cities that use them - London (for show, mostly) and a private security firm in HAmburg that's guarding one street. With sidewalks usually not street-wide, segways just get stuck in pedestrian traffic most of the time.

I am with Hermit on the Segway, again it appears to be a "Gee Whizz" with little use, along withe the Emotitoy, which is house rules out in my games, due the loop hole it creates, and the unprofessional appearance it gives.

WMS

I don't know the Emotitoy is a great idea for one of my char's granted at the same time all his matrix agents look like jawas, and he has bunny ears planted on the top of his steel lynx. what? he has his own gun bunny

The fact that you don't like some of the vehicle modding rules and that you don't like PMVs makes them no less valid and useful in the functions I've described.

My local municipality (which is quite hilly - it's known as the City of 7 Hills) has just bought a 100 Segways for the police force and I made wisecracks everyone makes about cops-on-wheels until about two weeks ago cops on these things caught up with and nailed a purse snatcher right in front of where I work—a 18 kid who was much fitter than the local cops and would certainly have evaded them on foot otherwise. Lisbon also has one of the biggest shopping malls in Europe (the Colombo) - which is still half the ground area of the Renraku Arcology and only has 3 floors - and guess what? The local rentacops are patrolling the place in Segways too, and this is the ass-end of Europe. I've got friends in Madrid, Barcelona, and Rome that tell me they're starting to be picked up there too. So you'll all pardon if I'm not the least bit skeptical about this kind of vehicle being in common use in enclosed environments and habitats.

But changing the subject slightly, besides the inclusion of the Segway and PMVs, what are your complaints with the current list of vehicles and what exactly do you think is missing?


I would have preferred an all new model of a light military helicopter, but in the end we decided to stick to tradition and keep an old favorite.

It's cheap, can be drone rigged and lets you outrun anyone short of a sprinting troll while jacked into hotsim. I'd use a Steed instead in an effort to avoid the dork factor, but rolling around in a specialized drone of some sort certainly can have its uses. Besides, you can now feasibly play a Professor Xavier rip off with Infirm, Astral Perception, Manipulation/Detection specialization and a wheelchair drone to get around without getting immediately slaughtered. I'm not a big fan of a lot of the stuff Arsenal has brought in, but the Segways and Transys Steeds aren't on the list of things I'd complain about.

What for? You already had one. You don't have a better than the Westwind sports car though, an upper-class sedan between comet and nightsky (think mercedes benz E200) or a golf-class subcompact (which IS the world's most common car type after all). Nothing against the jacket, but it always has been a variant of the wasp (and been listed as such, even).

Also, I have yet to see segways in action where I live, and I don't really see them work except in cities without stairs and wide walkways (never having been to Lisbon, I can't tell whether or not that applies to that city, though.

I've yet to see trolls, houngans and extendable Inspector Gadget finger mods either. Clearly the devs just keep dropping the ball.

How nice for you that you can suspend your disbelief more thoroughly than I can but ... your point being, aside from that?

Besides, my aunt is a practicing shaman, so I am used to some crazyness there.

My point is that demonstrably useful things should be included in the books regardless of your anecdotal experiences. In this case the fact that Segways already exist only compounds their plausibility, especially when you consider there's circumstances within the setting that give them unique advantages for certain classes of workers that make them potentially more useful than they are today.

Hey, good news, it's 2008! She's only gotta practice a few more years, and she'll start doing something with it.

Their usefulness being determined by what, other peoples' anecdotal experiences?

Yep. Your anecdotal experience in real life has no bearing on the anecdotal experiences I've had in game. I've had a jacked in rigger outrun a security team in his Segway while he jumped into his Steel Lynx to cover his own escape. They're demonstrably useful in the setting and they already exist so there's no real reason not to include them. You haven't seen a Segway in wherever it is you live. I'm willing to bet you haven't seen Dunkelzahn either. I'll let you know when I care.

There are more horse mounted LEO's(Law Enforcement Officer) here in the USA than all of the Segway production since the beginning. So Synner how many horse mounted LEO's does your city have? I too can provide anecdotal experiences too.

Why should a Runner give a devil rats arse what the Arcology types use to get around in their Arcologies?

@Hermit
I know many practicing Shamans, one worked for FASA helping design the Magic Rules.

I what things in books that a Shadowrunner uses, not toasters, microwaves, HD TV's, Segways, Emotitoys, Nuclear Power Submarines, yes they exist how many GM's are running SeaQuest Shadowrun?

Bunny ears on your steel Lynx? how many times do you take your Steel Lynx to meet your Mr. Johnson/Fixer? Must be game with a abit more power than I have seen.

WMS

Good for you. I as a GM would propably have had OpFor take shots on the rigger on the segway. Because, you know, I'm not as nice as your GM seems to be. Sniper rifles are a fun thing to keep players ont heir toes, you know.


So are tanks, so ... what would be your point again?

Two points: Those damn things are are used in the local mall, where they excel. We might laugh a bit at them, because they do look and sound silly to us, but by 2070 those damn things have been around since many SHadowrunner's grandparents time. Things look less silly when you've been seeing them since infancy.

Second: So what if no Shadowrunner would be caught dead in one. This is something that the security corp types WOULD be using, thus it's something they are likely to run into all the time. See too action movies, where maybe the good guy, for whatever reason, finds himself chasing/running away on something uncool... like a golf cart... or a kids bicycle, or... maybe.. just maybe... a segway.

Yes, they put Armour 20 and pintle-mounted machine guns onto them and use them instead of tanks, I imagine ...

We had a GNR (paramilitarized police like the Italian or the Irish Garda) regiment (250 horses) but they're all being cycled out for golf-carts, on the simple reasoning

Same is happening in London and Madrid (though in both of those horseguards are being maintained for cerimonial purposes). Tokyo Police was considering placing a huge order for Segways for their traffic division. Those are just municipalities, shopping malls, urban parks, big logisitics depos, ports, etc are looking at PMVs for quick and practical internal transportation.


Because, you know, you might find yourself trying to extract someone or something from an arcology, an arkobloc, or an undersea habitat on foot while the guys giving chase are on segways (or god forbid spider-rigged and lightly armored versions of these things that leave them free to shoot at you).


If you don't see the usefulness of emotitoys and segways for shadowrunners and their opponents, there are others who obviously do and appreciate their inclusion.


They don't need to be armored or carry machine guns, just like the rentacops using them won't be corporate special forces. If you chose to mod them that way you potentially could, doesn't mean the corps will be doing it.

For the record: the maximum (normal) armor a Segway can be modified to possess is all of 4 (I'm getting the increasing impression you didn't really read the Armor modding rules very closely particularly the part that caps the Armor at Body x2)

I love the book, love it dearly.

But the glass cutter on pg. 62 bugs me

You can't cut glass like in the movies, it expands and a suction cup wont work like that.

I just have a bit of a hard time imagining the things not immediatly toppling when the gun's fired, though rules say it's ok. That and the Highwind are soem fo the absurdities the vehicle modding system makes possible and that just rub me the wrong way.

could you please tell me how you but that in them with the modding rules. Becouse i'm pretty sure max you can get with a weaponmount is armor 4.

They also popped up here in Uruguay. I work inside a Free Trade Zone, where a company has been promoting them as a tool for private security companies.

As my comment above about the limits on armor suggests, I think there may some misunderstandings or misreadings at play here.

Furthermore a lot of your complaints seem to boil down to personal opinions and preferences, rather than verifiable problems with mechanics. If you were to constructively list some of your problems rather than ranting that stuff is crap, I for one would be much more inclined to take your opinions on board (You could start by telling me what the Highwind is?).

Personally, I think this is the best iteration of the Shadowrun vehicle and weapon modding rules and the one with the least inconsistencies and loopholes—though they are by no means perfect and there will be the odd mistake. For instance, I am aware that the Sensors are confusing as currently written and there will be a clarification in an upcoming FAQ—they do not however require errata.

Really? I figured armour takes up the same slots no matter what the strength of it? Ablative takes more, but 20 is max for normal armour.

This is getting old. You're not reading the book, for one thing, since you keep throwing out absurd amounts of armor and don't seem to notice that the Segway stabilizes via a gyroscope and could be easily modified to have smart wheels. The gyroscope thing isn't some weird science fiction either, the Segways that are around today have gyroscopes, since the entire pitch behind the thing is that it's upright and self-balancing so it doesn't take up much space.

You have obviously figured wrong. As I noted above I'm pretty sure you missed this:

Personally I it a little weird they did not include a ATV fourwheeler, and that they left out a simple narcojet in with the tasers. However those are minor complaints I suppose. I have for some reason been trying to figure out the best way to stat out a Cyclops riding Dwarf Sam.

@Synner
Desktop Forges besides the tool advantage, why would any one use one? The Costs of using the feedstocks in making a mod exceed the cost of just buying the mod.

WMS

WMS--I thought the cost of the items in feed stock was the same as the parts cost of creating the item from scratch. Therefore the cost would be the same. What I see as the primary advantage is that you buy 5,000 of feedstock and can make nearly anything. You supplement purchases with a few items (circuits, springs what not) that can't be made in the forge. This means that you have amore versatility with your supply cost and aren't stuck sitting on a hundred pieces of product that just won't sell.

Synner: the Highwind is the airship in final fantasy VII. in shadowrun terms, it's a conestoga vista with the lighter-than-air mod, which for some unfathomable reason can be applied to any vehicle, not just flying ones

mind you, it does make for a really easy way to add more blimps into the game, if that happens to be something you wanted to do =P

Correction that applies to rating 5 items or less, anything above rating 5 costs at least 25% to 50% more than if you just bought it. Do not forget to factor in the cost of the Forge too, minimum of 15k.

Additional Fuel Tank costs 1,000 bought or made, making one takes time, buying does not.
Anti-Theft System cost 200 times body bought, but 250 times body made.
Large Landing Drone Racks cost 20,000 bought but 30,000 made.

Again why have feedstock when it is cheaper to buy most items, and with most Pornomancer Faces takes less time to locate the mod part than it does to make it. Why buy feedstock and have them lying around, just go shopping with your Pornomancer Face.

Versatility equals greater costs?

I do not know about you but at character gen, spending extra money for versatility is not high on my list.

WMS

Does a forge not have the advantage of making a Facility mobile?

In fact with a cost of only two capacity you can potentially fit the entire thing (and satellite coms) into a drone and do the entire mod in the field without ever having to leave the comfort of your hardened bunker....

WMS--You must be reading it differently than I was. The cost of the forge not withstanding, the material cost of an upgrade was the cost of the parts. Let's say 1,000 . For items which cannot be entirely made with the forge, some of the materials must be bought directly-- 750 of feedstock and 250 of circuitry. The percentages are inclusive not extra.

The Desktop Forge is also not something I would buy at char-gen, but rather something to pick up later. Same for the feedstock. The versatility allows you to modify things in the field as Crizh mentioned or to make changes without needing to find out if a specific item is available. (The team had a high profile job and is hiding out--rather than having someone stick their neck out to get a custom grip and integral smartlink, the team's armorer is able to make most of the items and modifications with only a few small components needed from the outside world.)

Again this will be a parsing/word circle jerk.

It needs to say what you are saying BishopMQ.

I see many advantages to getting a Desktop Forge at chargen, ie modding ones weapons being one.

For 15,000+ I can get a contact to deliver the parts needed for custom grip or smartgun link, with out the use of a Pornomancer too. It gets even cheaper with a Pornomancer involved.

WMS

The extension of the modification to all vehicles and drones is intentional. The only thing that will probably be errata'd regarding the LTA mod is the max Body the modified vehicle may possess to still allow lift (and maybe the ability to attach and detach the LTA section of the vehicle which currently doesn't exist). If you want to drive around in a EuroCar Westwind with a 20m blimp on top to allow it to fly that's fine. The problems should be obvious though. People may or may not like the option, they may or may not use it, but there's no reason why it shouldn't be viable.


The rules mean exactly what they say.

The "about" is meant to give the gamemaster some leeway if he wants, but otherwise the cost of the feedstock is the same as for the parts involved in the modification. All the remaining advantages of the desktop forge have been stated above, it is a highly flexible tool that will allow you to build pretty much anything you want under the right conditions, it is mobile, and it is cheap for what it offers a mechanic, a tinkerer, armorer, or a rigger. If you think it's money badly spent then I suggest you don't buy one. There are plenty of people in the Sixth World , including more than a few shadowrunners, who will.

For the record, I was talking about the Celebrian Striker, LTA'd. That'd be the Highwind, a Final Fantasy type zeppelin warship. Good to know that is getting fixed, though. I do see it possible (though utterly senseless) for smaller vehicles.

Not to be all twink about it, but why?

The major selling point of LTA is it's scaling. How could you justify putting in a BOD cap when the Zeppelin has a BOD of 34?

In reality such a vehicle ought to gain BOD with the gigantic increase in volume...

What it does need though is sensible rules for propulsion, speed and acceleration.

Of course first we need sensible rules that cover stuff like cargo capacity for all vehicles....

Passenger capacities for all vehicles would be nice, too. Especially the larger ones. Whether one or two squads fit into the Citymaster IS important.

And Sensors that are better than a pimped emotitoy. You don't really mean to tell us that spysats and high-end warships don't have sensor suites better than a bloody emotitoy, do you?

They don't. It's not the sensor packages that are necessarily superior but the ways to show the sensoric feedback and the personel to interpret this feedback.

Funny, I'm sitting looking at one (a warship of some description) as we speak and I'm pretty sure the sensors I can see from here are never going to fit on a device I could put in my pocket....

And you think in SR2070 where nanotechnology allows for ridiciulous factors in miniaturization that those sensors will still be of the same size? Remember: An emotitoy does NOT need a radar system capable of naval combat guidance

You don't even need an emotitoy for that sensor package. all you need is the software, your comlink and glasses or a monocle with the ability to visually record what it's pointed at. heck, you could use your cyber eyes for that!

No, but with that miniaturisation available, do you think warships will restrict themselves to that level when they could have even more and better sensors? Or spysats? If so, why?

Sorry to say, but you can't put 20 armor on your segway. Under the "Armor" modification (p. 133) you can only have total Armor equal to twice the Body rating. So that's Armor of 4; not all that great, and anyway, I'd say a segway is sufficiently open that the armor would only count if you were shooting at the vehicle itself rather than the driver.

ah but don't forget its vehicle armor. isn't that a much tougher grade then normal armor like on a body or sheild?

Well, sure, but only if you can't beat the armor value with your DV. If you can't do more than 4 DV you should stay home and let professionals handle your job...

Yeah, I agree. I found it weird that they put the Thundercloud Morgan in as an ATV when it's basically a 2 seater buggy ala the DPVs/FAVs used in Desert Storm. Ah well. At least the speed is kinda in the right ball park for a sport ATV. Removing the option for a 2nd person, the weapon mount and cutting the body in half in exchange for a big boost to handling would probably be a decent approximation of an ATV. I'd rather have the Morgan in game over regular ATVs, since I think it's more fun and potentially useful in a Mad Max kinda way, but it was handled kinda goofy and it would have been nice to squeeze in both somewhere.

Howdy,
I tried to search through this thread, and I may have missed something. Why do all the Flechette weapons have AP +2? I thought it was moved to +5 a while back but I am no master of the rules. Are the newer Flechette weapons just better?

The Weapon chapter of Arsenal was finished long before the errata revised flechettes, and though several of our playtesters caught it, it somehow slipped through various revisions and proof-readings. The Arsenal errata will reflect the revised flechette modifiers in SR4.

I just got my copy along with enclaves yesterday and finally sitting down and digesting them and noticed Flechette mods, logged on to do search and bam here it is, Synner and his ninja like reflex's.

Little confused in explosives section, Bangalore which is a WWII era tech seemed out of place/date and not one mention of modern ap or av mines. Is there an easy way to use create wireless or smart mines/claymore type weapons with explosive rules that Im missing? (granted so far only breezed over explosive section)

Something else I found rating for special armor mods, 1-6 in chart 1-10 in text.

the bangalore was in sota63. and i can see some use for a rigid tube of explosives even today

and i think one can create mines using generic sensors. oh, and check out the push detonator...

Bangalore is'nt even used in our time anymore,was replaced by MCLC Mine Clearing Line Charge. An updated version of the old Bangalore. I like the future of current mine tech, wired mesh network, smart, "self healing" can move to replace detonated mines theres a thread here on DS about giving a minefield a persona for laughs. Nothing like a suicidal mine field with a dark sense of humor.

And of course the infamous claymore, requested more then once over the years by several different players in my groups, staple of action and war movies and just always expected to see it covered in SR. I've never been able to houserule it to the satisfaction of players involved and wish I had canon stats to reference for them.